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View Full Version : Recommnend a stone to go with a gift knife?



Marko Tsourkan
09-13-2011, 04:58 PM
If I were to include one stone along with a knife as a gift for somebody who is not a knifenut, what stone should I consider and in what grit? I was thinking a Shapton glass stone,(doesn't require flattening), or a fine diamond plate.

M

oivind_dahle
09-13-2011, 05:08 PM
King Combo Stone 800/6000 - I guess price does matter...

Lefty
09-13-2011, 05:08 PM
I'd go with a King 1k. Sure it dishes, but of they find they want to sharpen, I can't help but think they'll learn to/eventually want to have a flat stone.
It's a classic for a reason, and the price is right.

SpikeC
09-13-2011, 05:11 PM
I have no experience with Shaptons, but the fine DMT is a pretty good tool.

tk59
09-13-2011, 05:34 PM
...fine DMT is a pretty good tool.Definitely.

El Pescador
09-13-2011, 05:38 PM
Not a stone but a ceramic hone/steel. TK59 has me convinced I need one for mid service...

jwhite
09-13-2011, 05:44 PM
For a first beginners set up Ive recommended the tri-hone here (http://www.constantines.com/trihone.aspx) and it has been warmly recieved. It includes an india stone for repair bevel setting, med arkansas, and hard arkansas and honing oil for a little less than the king 1000k. The king is a good all aound stone BTW.

NO ChoP!
09-13-2011, 05:52 PM
I like the idea of the Shapton, but if you are gifting one of your knives, which I bet already has a spectacular edge set, maybe skip the 1000 and go with a 4000, especially for a noob????

Marko Tsourkan
09-13-2011, 06:05 PM
I like the idea of the Shapton, but if you are gifting one of your knives, which I bet already has a spectacular edge set, maybe skip the 1000 and go with a 4000, especially for a noob????

Interesting. Keep it coming, guys. I will pass on King combo. Not my favorite.

mainaman
09-13-2011, 07:47 PM
I'd go with 1k stone, may be King

aaronsgibson
09-13-2011, 07:52 PM
King 1k/6k stone in my opinion. It's what I started out with.

Eamon Burke
09-13-2011, 08:15 PM
Not a stone but a ceramic hone/steel. TK59 has me convinced I need one for mid service...

I've got to agree. I love my Idahone Rod. Tell Dave to get more!

Marko Tsourkan
09-13-2011, 08:41 PM
How long can you maintain the knife on Idahone before it needs resharpening?

Eamon Burke
09-13-2011, 09:32 PM
Depends on the knife and how much you use it. I sharpened a Chicago Cutlery for my boss at work and it got a few months of light work use. It basically is like touching up on a lightly aggressive 1200 grit stone--a hairy(wouldn't say "fine"), shiny, even scratch pattern.. It can be the end-of-the-line for a tougher, more abused knife.

Knowing you, I am guessing you didn't get them a brand new Forschner, so if it's a laser in high-performing heat treat, I would consider a fine grit stone instead(Like a Rika 5k...tell Dave to order those too, I need one meself). I learned to sharpen by doing edge maintenance touch-ups on a stone, so it's a good way to go if they want to learn to do it.

memorael
09-13-2011, 09:34 PM
I would go with a naniwa SS 1k. People keep saying its slow and what not but I think its awesome. Leaves a really good edge, doesn't cut too fast (I really don't care as much if it cuts fast or not, I am not sharpening 500 knives a day) and is soft enough that it is forgiving on not so perfect sharpening skills. Plus the softness makes the stone a good learning stone, and it costs about the same as a king 1k nowadays. A king 1k would be nice too btw. I wouldn't give someone anything finer the a 1k since it makes up for ****** skills easily.

Marko Tsourkan
09-13-2011, 09:55 PM
I was set on Shapton glass stones or Diasharp diamond plates as they don't need to be flattened. Now I am seriously considering a honing rod, as this might be easier to use while maintaining the edge than the actual stone.

The knife (by me) will be for a friend of mine in Ukraine. She would have to maintain the edge herself and I am not sure how well she can do it on the stones anyway. The closest knife nut that I know of (Vladimir) lives hundreds of miles away.

Dave you need to start a JKS franchise world-wide. :)

M

El Pescador
09-13-2011, 10:30 PM
Isn't the black ceramic a 2K? That might work...

Vertigo
09-13-2011, 11:29 PM
I was thinking a Shapton glass stone,(doesn't require flattening)

I was set on Shapton glass stones... as they don't need to be flattened.
While Shapton Glass stones do have great wear resistance, they are not immune to dishing and still require the occasional flattening. They're bonded ceramics mounted on tempered glass, so they're less prone to cracking, but not at all the same as a diamond-plate.

tk59
09-13-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm thinking of testing this one out at 2.2k: http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6356.

Pensacola Tiger
09-13-2011, 11:45 PM
A Gesshin 2000. Leaves an excellent, if unrefined, working edge.

Vertigo
09-13-2011, 11:47 PM
A Gesshin 2000. Leaves an excellent, if unrefined, working edge.

^^ I has one of them flapping it's way to me right now from beautiful downtown Venice, CA. Can't wait to play with it!

Pensacola Tiger
09-13-2011, 11:49 PM
^^ I has one of them flapping it's way to me right now from beautiful downtown Venice, CA. Can't wait to play with it!

You will love it. Soak it for thirty minutes, minimum, as Jon recommends.

tk59
09-13-2011, 11:56 PM
You will love it. Soak it for thirty minutes, minimum, as Jon recommends. And if you don't like it, you know where to find me. :D

ptolemy
09-14-2011, 12:09 AM
1-6k is good. i think it'll allow the person to learn it:)

Phip
09-14-2011, 01:27 AM
+1 King or other 1K. If the person isn't a hardcore blade freak, that's going to get the knife sharper than anything they've ever used and they'll swear allegiance to it.

Cipcich
09-14-2011, 06:30 AM
A nice gift!
A Shapton Glass Stone has much to recommend it, but the issue is not so much uneven wear as it is glazing. You would have to also provide a diamond plate of some sort to address this, so the recipient would then have two stones, of different fineness; perhaps more than you might have intended, but very handy . . .

99Limited
09-14-2011, 07:55 AM
I'm thinking of testing this one out at 2.2k: http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6356.

Amazon also carries DMT's honing rods at a better price, well at least when I checked. DMT's pricing on Amazon moves up and down fairly often.

stevenStefano
09-14-2011, 09:02 AM
A ceramic honing rod wouldn't be a bad idea. If you aren't super fussy about your edges you can maintain edges for quite a long time with them. What about a rod and a leather strop? Could go for quite a long time with those

NO ChoP!
09-14-2011, 11:22 AM
Yah, I like the rod idea better than a 1000 grit for a noob (seems too easy to mess up on a 1000 grit), and some rods actually remove a little metal, as apposed to just honing. I like the Mac black ceramic... intrigued by the DMT's especially since they have different grit levels.

Marko Tsourkan
09-14-2011, 12:12 PM
A ceramic honing rod wouldn't be a bad idea. If you aren't super fussy about your edges you can maintain edges for quite a long time with them. What about a rod and a leather strop? Could go for quite a long time with those

I like the idea of a rod and a strop. I can make a four-sided strop.
Also intrigued by diamond vs ceramic comparison.

M

unkajonet
09-14-2011, 01:01 PM
Marko - you said she isn't a knifenut, so would she even use a stone? If she's going to have to maintain it herself, a strop and a rod might only go so far. Please don't shoot me for suggesting it, but what about a "sharpening system," like the sharpmaker? Easier to use than a stone (at first), and it'll give her a working edge for quite a while, and she'll do minimum damage to the knife when using the system.

JohnnyChance
09-14-2011, 01:15 PM
Just a ceramic rod. Even a strop would be too complicated for the uninitiated. Most people can't even use a rod properly.

A simple sharpening system like unka suggested would be a better route than stones or strops.

Timthebeaver
09-14-2011, 01:18 PM
Make a Takeda-esque stone on a stick. Easier to use I reckon.

Marko Tsourkan
09-14-2011, 01:53 PM
Marko - you said she isn't a knifenut, so would she even use a stone? If she's going to have to maintain it herself, a strop and a rod might only go so far. Please don't shoot me for suggesting it, but what about a "sharpening system," like the sharpmaker? Easier to use than a stone (at first), and it'll give her a working edge for quite a while, and she'll do minimum damage to the knife when using the system.

You and JohnyChance read my mind. I too am going to throw a bomb here and say that it probably would make most sense to include a guided system like Sharpmaker (as a good friend of mine has suggested this morning), as even a rod will require some learning curve, not to mention a stone.

Most people out there are not like you when it comes to knives and sharpening, so don't be judgmental. :) As long as they get a knife reasonably sharp and enjoy using it, it is all that matters.

M

swarfrat
09-14-2011, 04:14 PM
Marko, you know your friend better than we could. But I can tell you that most of my friends don't even bother steeling their blades. So setting up a guided system would be out of the question. It would never come out of the drawer.

Any manual sharpener is going to take at least some minimal amount of attention and technique. While it may not give the best edge imaginable, I think the simplest sharpener I've seen is DMT's triangle rod (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-CDT62-Multi-Purpose-Diamond-Sharpener/dp/B0009JXQA8/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1316026860&sr=8-12).



sr.

EdipisReks
09-14-2011, 07:33 PM
a good friend of mine asked me to recommend him some knives. i pointed him to the standard Victorinox knives. nothing special there. however, i also pointed him to a ceramic hone (actually, i found some cheapos on eBay, and had him buy several). he isn't a knife guy at all, he just used a couple of my knives once, and wanted something that cut more like my knives than like his (i'm not kidding) Chef Tony knives. he has been able to maintain decent edges on the ceramic hone. that's what i would suggest for anybody who won't be interested in learning real sharpening. it's harder to **** up a knife with a hone (it can be done, but it takes more work) and it's easy to use the hone before every meal, just a few strokes on each side of the edge. doesn't have to be a great hone. they break easily, after all.

Eamon Burke
09-14-2011, 08:20 PM
AFAIK, a sharpmaker is just like having a diamond rod that is placed at a set angle. Never figured out why that was worth keeping up with all those little parts.

unkajonet
09-14-2011, 08:24 PM
You and JohnyChance read my mind. I too am going to throw a bomb here and say that it probably would make most sense to include a guided system like Sharpmaker (as a good friend of mine has suggested this morning), as even a rod will require some learning curve, not to mention a stone.

Most people out there are not like you when it comes to knives and sharpening, so don't be judgmental. :) As long as they get a knife reasonably sharp and enjoy using it, it is all that matters.

M

I suggested to my mother to get a sharpmaker after I bought a jknife for her. She's totally cool with it. It's not rocket science, and she gets a nice edge.

tk59
09-14-2011, 10:09 PM
...placed at a set angle... That's why.

Marko Tsourkan
09-14-2011, 10:17 PM
Ha Ha. You nailed it.

tk59
09-15-2011, 12:00 AM
Amazon also carries DMT's honing rods at a better price, well at least when I checked. DMT's pricing on Amazon moves up and down fairly often.Yeah. I buy stuff from David, in part because he's a good guy, too.

swarfrat
09-15-2011, 12:01 AM
.... he has been able to maintain decent edges on the ceramic hone....

.... doesn't have to be a great hone. they break easily, after all.

DMT's ceramic hones are "unbreakable."



sr.

Dave Martell
09-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Yeah. I buy stuff from David, in part because he's a good guy, too.


Is that David from Knife Merchant? Do you know him?

tk59
09-15-2011, 12:29 AM
Is that David from Knife Merchant? Do you know him? Yeah, I've stopped by his shop a few times. Back when I was first testing the waters in Japanese knives, I purchased my first knives from him: a Glestain 240 gyuto and a Masahiro MVH petty that I still like a lot. Why?

Dave Martell
09-15-2011, 12:32 AM
Yeah, I've stopped by his shop a few times. Back when I was first testing the waters in Japanese knives, I purchased me first knives from him: a Glestain 240 gyuto and a Masahiro MVH petty that I still like a lot. Why?

He should do more business within the community, seems like he's hardly known by most folks.

tk59
09-15-2011, 12:41 AM
He should do more business within the community, seems like he's hardly known by most folks.Yeah, I've mentioned the forums. I think he does most of his business locally, supplying schools and restaurants, etc. and isn't much of an internet guy.

Dave Martell
09-15-2011, 12:49 AM
Yeah, I've mentioned the forums. I think he does most of his business locally, supplying schools and restaurants, etc. and isn't much of an internet guy.


We should change that. :)

EdipisReks
09-15-2011, 01:04 PM
DMT's ceramic hones are "unbreakable."


unless they have changed the product in the last few years, the ceramic surface on that hone chips just as easily as any other ceramic hone. it also wears out relatively quickly, as the ceramic surface isn't very thick, and you end up with a not terribly useful aluminum rod, eventually (ceramic hones have to be sanded occasionally as they accumulate swarf). now whether or not it would actually wear out quickly enough for it to matter, i can't say, as i'm sure it would still last years, if the user manages to not chip it to hell. anyway, i'd rather have a few cheapies (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CERAMIC-SHARPENING-RODS-BRAND-NEW-0001-/160526931910).

Schtoo
09-15-2011, 02:28 PM
I don't know which stone per se, but if you go with a stone, then one of those dinky plastic/ceramic clip on honing guides wouldn't be a bad idea.


Just as a side note, I was given a gift set today of a knife and a #1000 stone, which is said to be perfectly adequate to keep the knife sharp for most uses.

I dunno what I'm going to do with this set though...

Stu.

swarfrat
09-15-2011, 03:29 PM
unless they have changed the product in the last few years, the ceramic surface on that hone chips just as easily as any other ceramic hone. it also wears out relatively quickly, as the ceramic surface isn't very thick, and you end up with a not terribly useful aluminum rod, eventually (ceramic hones have to be sanded occasionally as they accumulate swarf). now whether or not it would actually wear out quickly enough for it to matter, i can't say, as i'm sure it would still last years, if the user manages to not chip it to hell. anyway, i'd rather have a few cheapies (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CERAMIC-SHARPENING-RODS-BRAND-NEW-0001-/160526931910).
Been using mine (at home) for five years, zero chipping.

Never had any reason to consider sanding it. When it gets loaded up I use Softscrub with a stiff nylon brush or Scotchbrite.


sr.

SpikeC
09-15-2011, 04:08 PM
A pencil eraser will also clean that type of surface.

EdipisReks
09-15-2011, 04:13 PM
an eraser or scotchbrite pad is sanding it. you're using an abrasive to remove the swarf. i have tons of fine sandpaper, so that's what i used when i had ceramic rods.

stevenStefano
09-15-2011, 04:50 PM
I use baking soda to clean my ceramic hones. Works very well. Gets a bit annoying after a while when the rod makes your hands black

wenus2
09-16-2011, 01:45 AM
I think the simplest sharpener I've seen is DMT's triangle rod (http://www.amazon.com/DMT-CDT62-Multi-Purpose-Diamond-Sharpener/dp/B0009JXQA8/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1316026860&sr=8-12).

+1 to that.... kind of. If that were just a wee longer than 6" I would whole-heartedly suggest it as well.
I know this is going to seem like I'm crazy, but by far the easiest honing rod I've ever used was this one: Smith Oval Diamond Hone (http://www.amazon.com/Smith-foots-3001-Diamond-Sharpening-Steel/dp/B000H38GGK/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b). It seems almost too good to be true at the price, but it has a larger "flattish" surface area that makes it a breeze to use. My father actually gave one to my sister for Xmas about 5 years ago, he just found it locally at Ace Hardware I believe, but it has been so great for her I've given a few more as gifts since (including to him).
She has a Henckels 4-Star set and that diamond hone is match made in heaven for that soft steel. I dunno how high hrc you intend to make the knife for your friend, but I have had bad experience with diamond hones on harder steels. The same company makes a similar product in ceramic if that might fit your application better Smith Ceramic Hone (http://www.amazon.com/Smith-Abrasives-Oval-Ceramic-Sharpening/dp/B001GW9FW0/ref=pd_sim_hi_4).

If you decide to go with a stone, I like the idea of the 4k glasstone. The fine DMT is still quite aggressive, especially when new, and you could completely blow away a bevel with just a handful of bad passes.

I love my Gesshin 2k, but I don't think its a good starter stone. It's pricey, and it almost REQUIRES to be flattened after every use or two- so a diamond plate would be highly desirable.