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mateo
09-22-2011, 03:36 AM
Hey guys... I've been sharpening all along with some OK stones, and I think I'd like to upgrade for a few reasons: 1) bigger stones; 2) better sharpening experience; and 3) faux kasumi finishes! There are some other reasons in there, but I really would like to keep this progression to 3, maybe 4 stones. As I'm a home cook, and I'm still a novice at sharpening (who isn't?), I think more than 3-4 stones (except the DMT plate) would be excessive, and I don't think my wife would put up with any more! Here is what I'm thinking:

Existing stones:
DMT plate
700 Bester
King Combo 1200/8000

What I'm thinking:
DMT plate
700 Bester
1200 Bester
2K blue Aoto
5K Gesshin

I don't do a lot of fancy protein cutting, so I think 5-6k really gets me where I need/want to be with sharpening as most of my cutting is pretty normal stuff (onion, garlic, taters, etc.).

I've read great things about Gesshin 5k... I suppose I have three main questions:

1) is the 1200 necessary? Can the Aoto handle the 700 scratches, or do I need the 1200k?

2) If I'm wanting to get a Kasumi style finish (e.g. contrast in a Yoshikane.. or some haze on my Konosuke Chuka, sharpened hamaguri style) this is where the Aoto comes in... is it odd to have this as a mid stone? I'm assuming the Gesshin can't do this, right?

3) Any other recommendations? Again, I'm trying to keep this to a 3-4 stone lineup, nothing crazy!

Thanks everyone!

heirkb
09-22-2011, 03:42 AM
I'd check with Jon on what type of contrast the Gesshins can give. I have the 2k and it gives decent contrast with mud. It doesn't look like a natural stone kasumi finish, but there is contrast.

Also, I think that the Gesshin 5k could handle the jump from Bester 1.2 ,since lots of people seem to use it right from the Gesshin 1k (which I think Jon says is similar to the Bester). I'm newer to this stuff and my experience with the Bester and the Gesshins is so limited that I don't really want to say too much more.

JohnnyChance
09-22-2011, 04:22 AM
Lately, for my work edges, I have been using my Chosera 400 and then right to the Gesshin 5k (dry, very light use).

I like my 1200 Bester, and it isn't expensive, but you could skip it if you want.

If you prefer a soaker and a hazy finish, try the Gesshin 4k instead of the 5k.

JBroida
09-22-2011, 10:37 AM
the gesshin 4k doesnt leave that smooth of a kasumi finish... the look from the 2k is much better. In all honesty, the look from the synthetic aoto or suehiro rika is better than the gesshin 4k... i just like sharpening on the 4k more

Citizen Snips
09-22-2011, 10:48 AM
i currently have a blue aoto 2k and bester 1200 just sitting on my workbench. i even took them out of the water because i completely quit using them. i prefer the finish and performance of a coarse to fine jump. i do like the look of the gesshin 4k and although jon is right about the finishes the aoto and rika leave, i believe them to be purely aesthetic. your post indicates that the finish is important to you so maybe you should look into a rika 5k or some type of finishing stone known more for the kasumi finish than the cutting edge.

mateo
09-22-2011, 11:16 AM
Well... finish is important, but nearly as much as the performance of the knife after sharpening, and the pure enjoyment of the task of sharpening. My King Combo, while nice to sharpen on I don't find too impressive, and I think the 8k is simply too high.

Jon, on your Gesshin 5k video you posted it looks like the finish has some decent contrast, is that typical?

I'm also looking for my highest grit to be somewhat splash-and-go as I'll be using most often for touching up microbevels, or a quick strop (if the leather fails me!), so I don't think the 4k is what I'm looking for. Citizen, what is your coarse to fine jump? Are you talking 800 to 4k or something? And what about the performance and finish are you enjoying?

JBroida
09-22-2011, 11:21 AM
the 5k leaves more of a bright finish... not as much contrast as some other stones... shoot me an e-mail, i may have some ideas for you.

for what its worth, i would say that in the majority of cases, soaking stones tend to leave better contrast than splash and go stones... splash and go stones tend to leave brighter finishes overall. The rika still might be a good choice for you though... it doesnt require a long soak (but a short soak is a must) and leaves a nice finish

Vertigo
09-22-2011, 11:22 AM
I really enjoyed the look of the Gesshin 5k finish. It's very bright and flashy, and against a darker patina it looked downright spooky.

Citizen Snips
09-22-2011, 11:25 AM
ive played with lots of stones and i used have progressions like DMT>beston>bester>blue aoto>suehiro rika>arashiyama>kitayama>leather strop>CRO2 Felt and it just didn't feel right in the professional kitchen plus it took way too long. i use only two stones and i have a third if i really want a sharp edge for like my father-in-laws chisels or if i want to put that edge on yanagi.

i have two sets. the first is just the basic beston 500 to the suehiro rika 5k. i use this for all the people at work who want me to sharpen their knives and for some types of steel or knife types i feel this setup might work better. i found that the hiromoto AS takes a better edge than my second setup. for my personal knives, i use jons gesshin 400 and 4k. nothing but my working konosuke gyuto, yanagi, and mioroshi get these stones. these two leave a perfect cutting edge for kitchen use. like i said though, if i feel like i want to get my yanagi razor sharp knowing ive got a lot of fish cutting to do and will have the time to sharpen it again in a day, ill put it to the kitayama.

the finish the rika leaves is a little more clean and polished than the gesshin but as far as performance goes, gesshin all the way. i dont worry much about the finishes though as i would take performance any day of the week plus ive thinned out my konosuke gyuto so its not the prettiest knife in the world, but it has the character i want plus its the best cutter ive ever owned or used.

Citizen Snips
09-22-2011, 11:26 AM
i should also note that i prefer soaking stones over splashers 100% of the time

Cadillac J
09-22-2011, 03:26 PM
I'm also looking for my highest grit to be somewhat splash-and-go

Naniwa 5K SS could be perfect for you if this is what you want...it is my favorite stone to use and is a perfect finisher for double bevels. It might not be the "in" stone right now, but I would put my double bevels finished with this up against anyone elses. My total sharpening routine with a new knife is Chosera 600--Bester 1200--Naniwa 5K SS, but touch-ups with just the 5K will last for a while before you need to drop back down.

Eamon Burke
09-22-2011, 06:25 PM
It might not be the "in" stone right now, but I would put my double bevels finished with this up against anyone elses.

The results of any stone will reflect it's actual grit(regardless of whether that is the stated grit or not). If your results are better or worse on certain things, it is because you are doing something differently or inappropriately. The difference in brands/styles/etc is just a difference in the sharpening experience/process. :2cents:

Your 5k SS is cool with me. It will produce results as good as any other synthetic 5k!

tk59
09-23-2011, 01:02 AM
The results of any stone will reflect it's actual grit(regardless of whether that is the stated grit or not). If your results are better or worse on certain things, it is because you are doing something differently or inappropriately. The difference in brands/styles/etc is just a difference in the sharpening experience/process... I agree that the actual grit on a stone cannot be denied. I also agree that you can get different results by modifying how you use a stone. However, I seriously doubt you have any idea what the grit distributions really are in any stone. I don't either. That is why we always speak of stone performance in relative terms. Perhaps what you meant to say is "The grit rating really doesn't seem to mean much other than to specify which stone and give a ballpark estimate of where it should be placed in a progression." Anything more would basically be BS unless you actually got specs from a manufacturer or a lab, in which case, you should post them. :hungry:

memorael
09-23-2011, 02:40 AM
I sometimes wonder what the grit rating means. Kinda like when something says organic, and under law organic means it can be like... 25 percent organic and you get to put organic on your label? What if grit ratings are just not controlled by no one? and all the stones we are getting say 10k when it really is say... 5k? I mean look at the finish of a ss1k its far better than a lot of other higher grit stones I think. The 5k is definitely shinier than most other stones in the higher grit according to what I read in the forums.

WillC
09-23-2011, 04:05 AM
I like watching progress between grits on a quality x10 loupe. Tells you allot about your stones and if your hitting the bevel evenly all the way along the edge. Sort of takes the mystery out of it. Especially useful if using naturals and are unsure of what comparative finish they give.

Cadillac J
09-23-2011, 12:04 PM
The results of any stone will reflect it's actual grit(regardless of whether that is the stated grit or not). If your results are better or worse on certain things, it is because you are doing something differently or inappropriately. The difference in brands/styles/etc is just a difference in the sharpening experience/process. :2cents:

Your 5k SS is cool with me. It will produce results as good as any other synthetic 5k!

I'm not trying to say my SS 5K will provide a 'better' or more refined edge than experienced 10K+ finishes...what I'm saying is that if you are good at sharpening, the 5K SS is a great splash and go stone that I would match up against any of the current "hot" stones in the same general range.

The OP is looking for a new stone and the SS fits the bill perfectly, and I don't want him to be swayed that the SS polishing stones should be down graded just because they aren't having their time in the limelight right now.

Schtoo
09-24-2011, 12:43 PM
Perhaps what you meant to say is "The grit rating really doesn't seem to mean much other than to specify which stone and give a ballpark estimate of where it should be placed in a progression."
Anything more would basically be BS unless you actually got specs from a manufacturer or a lab, in which case, you should post them. :hungry:


I can't say for sure about all manufacturers, but I can tell you for certain that Sigma Power use JIS R6001-1998 as the grit specification for all of their stones, and the stones marked beyond the specification (only goes to #8000) are extrapolated for size and tolerance.

Yes, I specifically asked. I can c+p the email if you need me to, but it's all in Japanese. ;)


Makes things somewhat difficult when you try and explain that xyz #8000 is more like a #6000 or #12000 from some other maker...

(And really stupid when you have to tell someone that their #8000 Norton (3.0 micron) is 50% coarser in grit than a #6000 (2.0 micron) SP.)


From what I can tell, most makers tend to stick to the current JIS standard, except Norton (who march to a different tune entirely), King who's traditional stuff conforms to the much older JIS sediment standard and Shapton who also conform to the older standard, but with a tighter tolerance. In the case of King and Shapton, I'd suspect it's because their stones have been largely the same for so long that they don't want to change the actual abrasive particle size from what folks are long used to. Updating the specified grit would mean making wholesale changes to their line ups, which would be confusing to many. Although I think King are moving to the newer spec with their newer style stones.

The grit size can be important or not, depending on how the stone actually works or can be made to work. I find a lot of folks tend to be reluctant to experiment with what a stone can do when used in a different manner to 'normal', but also some stones don't lend themselves to experimentation very well.

Stu.

Eamon Burke
09-24-2011, 12:49 PM
I'm not trying to say my SS 5K will provide a 'better' or more refined edge than experienced 10K+ finishes...what I'm saying is that if you are good at sharpening, the 5K SS is a great splash and go stone that I would match up against any of the current "hot" stones in the same general range.

The OP is looking for a new stone and the SS fits the bill perfectly, and I don't want him to be swayed that the SS polishing stones should be down graded just because they aren't having their time in the limelight right now.

I was agreeing with you. I wanted to add, for the OP's sake, and general posterity, that a 5k stone is a 5k stone is a 5k stone, results wise. Assuming the listed grit is the actual grit, all 5k stones will produce the same quality edge, it's just a matter of what you have to go through to get it. A 5k SS may be out of vogue temporarily, but that matters little to the steel.

*edit* this does not go for stones like Arkansas stones where the particle size is the same, and density is different.

mateo
09-24-2011, 01:15 PM
hmmm... Not sure what to get! I guess I could grab some finger stones for contrast... bah! haha... I really just need 10 stones, because I can't really decide.

Seb
09-24-2011, 06:45 PM
hmmm... Not sure what to get! I guess I could grab some finger stones for contrast... bah! haha... I really just need 10 stones, because I can't really decide.

That's exactly what I said... and then I woke up one morning and found myself with twenty.

stevenStefano
09-24-2011, 07:14 PM
The problem I have is that any time I think of getting new stones I just decide to buy another knife. Still using 800 and 4000 King stones I got in my local hardware shop

Seb
09-24-2011, 08:48 PM
The punchline is right now I am only using one stone - a Shapton Pro 2K.

Citizen Snips
09-24-2011, 09:35 PM
The punchline is right now I am only using one stone - a Shapton Pro 2K.

maybe the time to make that house with all those bricks is rapidly approaching old friend

Vertigo
09-24-2011, 11:13 PM
The punchline is right now I am only using one stone - a Shapton Pro 2K.

Replace Shapton 2k with Gesshin 2k and that sounds about right to me.

Seb
09-24-2011, 11:30 PM
maybe the time to make that house with all those bricks is rapidly approaching old friend

Ssshhh... it was supposed to be a doghouse, remember? Let's not give my wife any ideas!

Seb
09-24-2011, 11:36 PM
Replace Shapton 2k with Gesshin 2k and that sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately, the shipping cost from the States to Oz puts the kibosh on that. That would add up to something like $140-150!

phan1
09-26-2011, 10:49 PM
I always focus on "what stone do I want to finish this knife on?", and I base my stones around that. Like spending a lot on a 1k stone that's only purpose is to transition to a 5k stone doesn't make the most sense. My most important stones are 1) what I finish with and 2) my course stone.

Seb
09-27-2011, 12:10 AM
That's a good point, phan1.

I also like to have a set/progression around for when I am setting a new bevel on very hard/very wear-resistant steel like 'Gokinko A' or 'Tokushu semi-stainless'. In which case my preferred lineup is:
- Sigma Power Select II #240
- Sigma Power Ceramic (Soft Type) #1000
- Sigma Power Synthetic Renge Suita #6000
--> all very, very fast-cutting stones.

memorael
09-27-2011, 01:39 AM
I always focus on "what stone do I want to finish this knife on?", and I base my stones around that. Like spending a lot on a 1k stone that's only purpose is to transition to a 5k stone doesn't make the most sense. My most important stones are 1) what I finish with and 2) my course stone.

I think the most important stones are the lower grit ones like the 1k and the 220 or whatever you use first. No matter how good a finishing stone is it will only be as good as the initial edge you can put on a knife with the lower grit stones.

memorael
09-27-2011, 01:40 AM
That's a good point, phan1.

I also like to have a set/progression around for when I am setting a new bevel on very hard/very wear-resistant steel like 'Gokinko A' or 'Tokushu semi-stainless'. In which case my preferred lineup is:
- Sigma Power Select II #240
- Sigma Power Ceramic (Soft Type) #1000
- Sigma Power Synthetic Renge Suita #6000
--> all very, very fast-cutting stones.

Where did you get the 6k renge suita sigma stone? pics??? How do you like the rest of the sigma stones btw?

Seb
09-27-2011, 02:27 AM
Where did you get the 6k renge suita sigma stone? pics??? How do you like the rest of the sigma stones btw?

Hi, I got the 'Jinzo Renge' 6K from TFJ (I'll PM you the site addess).

The 1K cuts nearly as fast as the Chocera 400 and the 240 is indescribably fast - leaves the Cho#400 or my GS#220 for dead.

Got them all from TFJ. :)

Schtoo
09-27-2011, 10:16 AM
Where did you get the 6k renge suita sigma stone? pics??? How do you like the rest of the sigma stones btw?


Insert maniacal cackle here...

;)

I 'had' one myself, loved it, half gifted it to a friend who came to visit. Never replaced it. Desperately want to.


(No, I won't reach over my shoulder and 'replace' it. That would be too evil. :D)

Stu.

P.S; Seb, I've effectively retired my Cho #400. It's still a great stone for those jobs where you need to go heck for leather, but it's been outclassed by a couple stones I've just picked up and I'm hoping another stone that should be showing up soon will help put the final nail in it's coffin.

No, it's not for sale. Turns out that every time I entertain the thought of losing some used stones, I end up needing to try them out on something again...