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Keith Neal
09-22-2011, 10:10 PM
I'm just a home cook, and happy to spend more time sharpening than cutting. I want to get my knives as sharp as possible, just for the principle of it. OK, I'm just a knife nut.

I have been studying the subject for a while, and bought DVD's, and practiced. But I am still looking for the best answer.

Once I get a decent edge, how do I get the ridiculously sharp edge?

De-burr with cork or soft wood or stones or leather?

Strop on fine stones? Superfine stones? Leather strop? Newspaper? Microbevel?

Knife nuts, help.

dough
09-22-2011, 10:33 PM
how about you tell us what you are currently doing.

but even before hearing what you do ill say these things:
there are really no magic tricks other then spending time on the stones and holding consistent angles.
kinda like me asking my buddy who has been sharpening for years why he gets a better edge off a 500grit stone then my 10k polished knife.
he reply would just be try to practice more perfectly because perfect practice makes perfect.

Citizen Snips
09-23-2011, 12:17 AM
i agree with dough. buying dvds, spending time reading on these forums, talking to people, and buying expensive stones wont get you the experience you will get from getting your hands muddy.

there are so many things you can learn from everyone here and from dvds but none of them can come close practice from putting in hours and hours on the stones

bieniek
09-23-2011, 01:00 AM
I have now Tormek T7 bought from new with the spare "japanese waterstone wheel" of 4000 grit.
Whats important is that machine keeps continously angle close to perfect, but theres more to sharpening than that only.

The experience you gain is the feeling under you fingertips, when you just know where you abrade, you know how and where to press, and also what stones/strops/magic use.

Noone can tell you whats best, just work it out yourself.

memorael
09-23-2011, 02:45 AM
I would recommend you do a lot of different things often to see what happens, that's how you learn the small nuances which take a knife from good to spectacular.

Keith Neal
09-23-2011, 07:11 AM
I have been working on sharpening for a year or so, trying all of the techniques I mentioned. I am primarily experimenting with my Masamoto yanagiba, which is barely "three finger" sharp now, but I suspect it could be better.

I thought perhaps it would save me some time experimenting if I heard from those of you who have settled on a routine that works consistently.

Ratton
09-23-2011, 07:51 AM
Hi There,

As long as you are de-burring on something that is what matters, personally I use a hard felt pad.

My defining moment going from sharp to crazy sharp was when I started finishing my sharpening session off by stropping on a leather strop loaded with diamond spray. For me it made the difference like between day and night!! :jawdrop:

Keith Neal
09-23-2011, 09:12 AM
Hi There,

As long as you are de-burring on something that is what matters, personally I use a hard felt pad.

My defining moment going from sharp to crazy sharp was when I started finishing my sharpening session off by stropping on a leather strop loaded with diamond spray. For me it made the difference like between day and night!! :jawdrop:


Thanks! That is very helpful. I was leaning the same way, but wanted some more input. Figuring it out by myself is not the most efficient way to learn.

Any other thoughts from the experts here would be appreciated.

Keith

wenus2
09-23-2011, 01:34 PM
I will agree that adding a finishing strop was the single greatest improvement for me too. I use CrO on Balsa. I don't think it really matters what it is you use, obviously Carter seems to get his knives kind of sharp using just newspaper, just so long as one picks a medium and strops on it I think it adds benefit.

memorael
09-23-2011, 01:59 PM
Before the days of stropping and all the sprays and stuff all that we had was 10k stones. No natural high grit finishers and no how to manuals. The best bet was to ask Dave what he did and many even after following Dave's advice had to find out what worked best for them.

Everyone here that is a veteran knows this and even Dave has mentioned how all the knives he receives from knife nuts have a distinct signature. Which is why I would recommend to not use strops until you can get a very sharp edge using just a 1k and to experiment. Have you seen CDawgs videos? he sharpens nothing like what is usually recommended around here and he almost won the sharpening olympics.

There are no short cuts, if you want to sharpen like a pro you need to put in your hours and experiment. More than anything understanding what is happening to your knife with different strokes, grits and knife position while sharpening.

bieniek
09-23-2011, 03:40 PM
I am primarily experimenting with my Masamoto yanagiba, which is barely "three finger" sharp now, but I suspect it could be better.


Lets take masamoto slicer as an example. I have one so its easy to share.

Firstly, you have to know that this knife is able to get great edge and its able to push cut ripe tomato, cuts through your skin without even attempting movement.

Lets be honest, if you sharpen it a year, and it barely gets after the three finger test, something is seriously wrong. Do you have good burr understanding?

I start with 1k king. I work it as long as it needs, i can feel it but also see it. I apply moderate pressure. I dont touch backside. And i think this is the most important part of the process.
Then I move to 3k naniwa, stop applying pressure and try to press with my fingers only on the way forward with the stroke, and not with getting back.
I go to 8k naniwa and I work some mud and get some strokes but every maybe five [its very intuitive] i get two or three on back side also.
Then i go to 6k suehiro and do front side only, at this point im trying to REALY apply nothing in terms of pressure, the blade just gently touches stones surface.

I go to my felt pad and strop some with my blue powder compound.
Then I go to my natural stone and i do maybe 80 strokes? hell knows, its my knife and I dont count on it :) again, every five or so I swap sides and do few strokes.
I check. At this point the edge is scary, toothy and feels somehow fragile.
I do microbevel with the last stone and strop few strokes on newspaper.
I always end fish knives on newspaper.
My routine changes a lot, but i dont know if its evolving as i dont see any huge improvements if you drop one stone or skip one strop.

To be super honest i also noticed that when at work, im very satisfied with 1k and 6k/newspaper edge, but its not holding as long!

Benuser
09-24-2011, 07:13 AM
In your example, do you mean that the back side isn't touched before the 8k? No deburring before? And then, at 8k, still no deburring but just counting? I guess I'm missing something.

bieniek
09-25-2011, 07:26 AM
Yes, exactly. The backside doesnt get treated with anything before 8K Naniwa, or the 6K if Im on emergency setup [or a standard if youre Murray Carter :) ]

Why is that? [That is hard to explain, and its only my own thoughts on the subject.]
1. because I think its easy or very easy to mess up if you are using something more abrasive.
2. because the sharpening stage is on one side only, then final honing goes to the backside [really hard to put to words]

Something very important here: the numbers there are just example, usually im not counting strokes, just go by feel.

The compound I found [~2-3micron] is powder block of 1kg costs under 20 bucks and is perfect to rub into felt. Also you can find 1cm thick pressed felt pads white. So I have the compound on one side and other side plain for final stropping after compound.
I have other green compound[chromium oxide], but its so fine leaves very very smooth edge, and I dont like it.

No, sometimes I wouldnt deburr, Im ending with microbevel, so I noticed that when I deburr afterwards, theres no residue visible.
Also somehow Im afraid that if I deburr after 1k I could rip off to much metal from edge?

Keith Neal
09-25-2011, 09:49 AM
Do y'all use a single bevel from the shinogi line to the edge, or a secondary from the shinogi line and a primary a degree or so higher at the edge? (Did I say that right?)

Do you use cork or soft wood to deburr, or just stones and/or stropping?

This thread has been very useful. Thanks for answering.

Keith

bieniek
09-25-2011, 11:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvDjASvVHek&feature=related

However it is not my favorite video on the subject, I think it can give you idea if you watch it for 10 times.

The whole context behind single bevel knife as I understand it is TWO[or three] different angles. One is in iron, and is lower [angle] than angle used to sharpen steel itself.

That way when you sharpen few times, you remove some steel, so the width of iron behind the edge rises. To bring it down you remove the iron above, which broadens secondary bevel and brings the previous width, so knifes performance stays the same through the whole blade life.
Pretty ingenious, isnt it?

Do testing for yourself, sharpen knife and deburr, vs sharpen and not deburr. Observe symptoms after.
I personally lean towards no deburring on single bevels.

EdipisReks
09-25-2011, 05:29 PM
I will agree that adding a finishing strop was the single greatest improvement for me too. I use CrO on Balsa. I don't think it really matters what it is you use, obviously Carter seems to get his knives kind of sharp using just newspaper, just so long as one picks a medium and strops on it I think it adds benefit.

i had three major improvements:

1: spending more time on coarse stones, and getting the knife sharp before moving on (if the knife ain't sharp after 400 or 800, it ain't gonna be sharp after 12,000, or at least not evenly sharp and not sharp for long)

2: properly de-burring: i've used felt, and the edge of my cutting board, and all kinds of stuff, but i find a wine cork to work the best if the burr doesn't get removed during the sharpening process naturally

3: stropping (i can get my knife just as sharp using just my finishing stone, but it takes a lot longer than using balsa with .5 CrO and .25 Diamond)

tk59
09-25-2011, 07:06 PM
I don't do anything special to deburr on 90% of the blades I come across. I will strop a few times on either leather with 0.25 micron diamond or very lightly on a finisher (8k SS is my fave) to make a microbevel, if you can even call it that. No one I know can actually see it with the naked eye. I will echo what several others have said and say that the most important thing is to practice keeping your angle...a LOT. For a while, I was sharpening everything I could get my hands on. I still do that to a lesser extent, actually.

mateo
09-25-2011, 09:20 PM
Lets be honest, if you sharpen it a year, and it barely gets after the three finger test, something is seriously wrong. Do you have good burr understanding?


Is this really true though? I thought that there were some edges that won't pass the three finger test... I know my knives never do, but they can split hairs, is something seriously wrong? Maybe something is, and I just don't know it -- but their never "sticky" enough to pass the finger test.

Thinking about this more in depth, I wonder if sharpening motion plays a big role in the finger test... think about it. Unless you're finishing on glass (or a REALLY high grit stone) stones will leave "teeth" on the edge. But what happens when you sharpen in a perpendicular motion (edge to stone) versus a mor parallel motion? Would the teeth be in different alignment because of this? I'd curious to see if Curtis' (aka CDawg) knives pass the three finger test...

Keith Neal
09-26-2011, 03:09 PM
I spent some more time with the yanagiba after studying these answers and some videos. With the 6k and leather strop with .25 diamond spray, focus was on carefully maintaining the exact angle and using much less pressure. Big improvement. I may be making progress!

In the process, I found that stropping on the 6k did not work for me. It made the edge worse, which I don't understand, but as long as I found something that works, I'll be happy.

I am also getting a better feel for how sharp the edge is, which helps. I am beginning to feel what works and what doesn't, or if I am doing something right or not. And it doesn't take much to get it wrong!

I still have a lot to learn. Study continues...

Thanks.

Keith

memorael
09-26-2011, 03:33 PM
Is this really true though? I thought that there were some edges that won't pass the three finger test... I know my knives never do, but they can split hairs, is something seriously wrong? Maybe something is, and I just don't know it -- but their never "sticky" enough to pass the finger test.

Thinking about this more in depth, I wonder if sharpening motion plays a big role in the finger test... think about it. Unless you're finishing on glass (or a REALLY high grit stone) stones will leave "teeth" on the edge. But what happens when you sharpen in a perpendicular motion (edge to stone) versus a mor parallel motion? Would the teeth be in different alignment because of this? I'd curious to see if Curtis' (aka CDawg) knives pass the three finger test...

The direction of the teeth changes making your knife perform a bit different in theory. Try doing it that with a 220 stone or something and you will see that sharpening at different angles in parallel reference to the stone and you will see that the more parallel the knife is lengthwise to the stone the more aggressive it becomes when slicing and it becomes less aggressive when chopping. I think this is why the Japanese like having a 30 or 45 degree in reference to the stone.

I have never truly understood the three finger test and frankly it scares the sheet out of me, so I can't comment on that part.

Eamon Burke
09-26-2011, 07:21 PM
I think this is why the Japanese like having a 30 or 45 degree in reference to the stone.


It might be that too, but the 45 degree slant helps prevent wobble. Your arm isn't meant to extend in and out on a flat plane in a straight line, and doesn't want to stay flat. It will be easier to maintain an angle if you hold the handle in a position flowing from your hand naturally.

EdipisReks
09-26-2011, 07:43 PM
I have never truly understood the three finger test and frankly it scares the sheet out of me, so I can't comment on that part.

it sounds scary, but it's simple. if you grip the edge lightly (very lightly) with three fingers around the blade and move your hand slightly in relation to the edge, it should stick.

memorael
09-26-2011, 09:16 PM
it sounds scary, but it's simple. if you grip the edge lightly (very lightly) with three fingers around the blade and move your hand slightly in relation to the edge, it should stick.

It's the whole sticking part that worries me... I have done the test about two times and I pretty much dislike the feeling in fact just thinking about it makes my skin do that hair popping up thing. Funny for a guy that likes getting his knives ultra sharp.

EdipisReks
09-26-2011, 09:20 PM
you aren't supposed to like the feeling. :)

so_sleepy
09-27-2011, 04:23 AM
It's the whole sticking part that worries me... I have done the test about two times and I pretty much dislike the feeling in fact just thinking about it makes my skin do that hair popping up thing. Funny for a guy that likes getting his knives ultra sharp.

That is the principle of the three finger test. If you are comfortable sliding your fingers along the edge, your knife has failed the test.

memorael
09-27-2011, 04:52 AM
So I guess I pass the test all the time then??? I would love to see a video of this done properly if anyone has a camera around and is willing to do a fail/pass video.

Lefty
09-27-2011, 05:29 AM
One thing I've noticed with the three finger test (which I use ALL the time), is that the more often you do it, the less scared you become. This, of course allows you to do the test more properly, but it can also lead to slicing a couple layers into the tips of your fingers. I've noticed lately, when I do it, when I'm all finished up, I have very fine lines cut into my fingers, but not anywhere deep enough to draw blood.
Basically, just pay attention to what you're doing and you'll be fine, as long as you you don't mind the odd mark.

zitangy
09-27-2011, 06:00 AM
I will agree that adding a finishing strop was the single greatest improvement for me too. I use CrO on Balsa. I don't think it really matters what it is you use, obviously Carter seems to get his knives kind of sharp using just newspaper, just so long as one picks a medium and strops on it I think it adds benefit.

I got a new leather piece ( horse hide) nad did some stropping. it was not as "bitey" as it should.. I oiled it with mineral oil ( 3 times) and it does seem to give a better edge. My old leather Barber strop is about 20 years old. picked it up somewhere in New York choked and now with red color oxides adn will be cleaning it up soon as it is too smooth for my liking. Only using the reverse side for deburringwhen on lower grits. Will experiment with teh linen backing when I can find it....

Rgds
DL

Seb
09-29-2011, 10:24 AM
With the Three-Finger-Test, how do you know that you're not feeling a wire? Also, I remember a while ago, Dave suggesting that the TFT doesn't work with very refined 'slick' edges.

Dave Martell
09-29-2011, 11:20 AM
With the Three-Finger-Test, how do you know that you're not feeling a wire? Also, I remember a while ago, Dave suggesting that the TFT doesn't work with very refined 'slick' edges.


If you use chromium oxide on a strop you'll likely fail the 3-finger test. If you wobble at all on high grit stones (especially Shaptons) you'll fail the 3-finger test.

Yup a wire edge always passes the 3-finger test.

Seb
09-29-2011, 09:16 PM
If you use chromium oxide on a strop you'll likely fail the 3-finger test. If you wobble at all on high grit stones (especially Shaptons) you'll fail the 3-finger test.

Yup a wire edge always passes the 3-finger test.

Thanks for clearing that up, Dave. :)

I have managed to achieve sharp 'sticky' edges (to the best of my very limited sharpening ability) but could never be sure whether I had managed to totally eliminate the wire to find the 'true' edge.

Since then, I have been concentrating more on eradicating the wire over trying to achieve that 'ultimate' edge. But the process of abrading the wire introduces the 'wobble' factor into my final edge. So the next step of my journey is to try and achieve 'wireless ultimate true edges' LOLOLOL - good luck. :D

PS: of all the compounds I've tried, I like Chromium Oxide the least - but I have found that boron carbide or diamond works nicely. But, while these edges appear very sharp, I have a sneaking suspicion that they produce a brittle edge - or maybe I am just over-stropping.

Dave Martell
09-29-2011, 09:29 PM
I've got the impression that chromium oxide does the most for wire edge reduction of all the compounds. It also makes for the keenest edge but it's not a toothy edge. For a yanagiba this is my choice of finishing compounds for all the above reasons.

Sometimes it's fun to use chromium oxide to de-burr/de-wire and then jump to diamond to get the tooth again. Sometimes this works and other not but it's fun to try switching back and forth.

Seb, I think you're chase for the wireless ultimate perfect edge is the place to go. To me getting perfect sharpness is only 1/2 the battle, the other is to make the edge tough and long lasting. In my pursuit to combine these two things I've had to give up the ultimate crispness to gain the max edge retention. Like yourself I still keep trying to get them to come together perfectly though, maybe one day.....

Seb
09-30-2011, 12:41 AM
Kind words from my foremost Sharpening Teacher, thanks Dave! :)

Wow, it just happens that I sometimes progress from silicon carbide to boron carbide to chromium oxide and then back to silicon or boron again for the final step.

My current go-to is a 240 CarboNext and I have been experimenting back-and-forth with GlassStone edges, specifically 1K and 16K finishes, and then bare felt strop. Lotsa fun. I am quite happy with the performance last night on an overripe, squishy tomato (with white mould one side, lol) than I found in the back of the fridge. Blazed through it nicely. These days, I tend to favour the tomato test, garlic skin test and the 'cutting board test'. ;)

I am fairly happy with the results here:


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/steakknives005-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/steakknives016.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/steakknives001-1.jpg

Dave Martell
09-30-2011, 12:47 AM
I am fairly happy with the results here:


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/aurochs_2006/steakknives005-1.jpg


Yeah you should be. :D

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 12:49 AM
yeah, that looks great! my bevels are as even, but i don't have the patience to get them that scratch free.

Dave Martell
09-30-2011, 12:55 AM
To me the amazing part is that he's using Shaptons up to 16k and getting that finish - I'm impressed!

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 01:01 AM
To me the amazing part is that he's using Shaptons up to 16k and getting that finish - I'm impressed!

huh.

Seb
09-30-2011, 01:06 AM
It's in no small part thanks to all your generous advice over the years, Dave!

It's also helped that I've worked on a lighter touch, varying the amount of pressure used, using the entire stone and getting away from KCMA's 'earthquake'-style of sharpening that I was influenced by for a long time.

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 01:07 AM
getting away from KCMA's 'earthquake'-style of sharpening that I was influenced by for a long time.

heh.

Seb
09-30-2011, 01:13 AM
huh.

LOL I love Shaptons because I hate flattening/lapping - I also dig the splash-n-go thing cuz I am so impulse-driven. I also learned on my first serious set being Shaptons 1K and 4K so I am very comfortable with them. If I had come up using Kings like a lot of people then maybe I wouldn't like them so much either.

This bevel and edge came from a GS 1K-4K-16K progression. The underlying coarse stones were Sigma Power Select II #240 and a Chocera #400. There was an enormous amount of attention paid to getting rid of burr at all stages and I am happy to certify that this sucker is wire-edge-free (FWIMBW). ;)

The bevel is about 11-12 degrees and 95/5 assymmetry. If there was a wire lurking there, it wouldn't take long to make it's presence known.

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 01:15 AM
i take a dull knife to tomato skin piercing with gravity in 20 minutes, so that's good enough for me. :)

Seb
09-30-2011, 01:17 AM
i take a dull knife to tomato skin piercing with gravity in 20 minutes, so that's good enough for me. :)

Amen.

If you can do that then all the rest is meaningless detail!

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 01:17 AM
Amen.

If you can do that then all the rest is meaningless detail!

the secret is using the knife sharpening tool on the back of my can opener.

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 01:27 AM
truthfully, i find that a 20 minute progression of 500 beston, 1000 suehiro, 3000 masahiro (the cheapest stone i own, but one of my favorites), kitayama, .50 CrO/balsa, .25 diamond/balsa gets me about 90% of the edge the edge that a careful hour can give me, and that is almost always good enough for me unless i'm showing off. when i'm showing off i spend half an hour with a synthetic aoto instead of the suehiro and masahiro stones. this is for a double bevel knife, i spend much longer on dull single bevels unless they are already flat. i've never found that taking all the scratches out, as opposed to taking 75% of scratches out, gives me all that much. i maintain knives on .25 diamond, .5 CrO or the kitayama (depending on how long my cutting session is), as i've always tried to remove as little steel as possible, at all times. the longer i sharpen the more steel i remove, and i'd rather my knives be not quite as sharp as they could be if it means leaving more material on the knife. i can typically notice a wire edge on sharpening, and it either gets taken care of on polish, or the edge of my cutting board or a cork takes it off.

Benuser
09-30-2011, 05:19 PM
i take a dull knife to tomato skin piercing with gravity in 20 minutes, so that's good enough for me. :)

I have an express mode for knives that don't need further thinning: a few strokes on a Chosera 400, stropping and deburring on a Chosera 2000, finally some strokes on leather + Cr2O3. Ten minutes will do.

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 07:13 PM
i really need to try some Choceras.

Seb
09-30-2011, 07:20 PM
You could probably jump straight to a Chocera #3000. That stone has gained quite the reputation. I am itching to pick one up myself. Also the #600 because it is blue, I am such a sucker for that lol.

EdipisReks
09-30-2011, 07:23 PM
added to the list of things to get. thanks!

zitangy
09-30-2011, 09:07 PM
I prefer the SS 2000. IF I need a toothier edge, I will only use this stone for touch ups and maintenance. It shaves minutely fast enough.. The 1000 SS does not shine at all.

The SS series is my preferred series over the chosera as it is softer. could be just personal preference

rgds

bieniek
10-02-2011, 10:53 AM
Is this really true though? I thought that there were some edges that won't pass the three finger test... I know my knives never do, but they can split hairs, is something seriously wrong? Maybe something is, and I just don't know it -- but their never "sticky" enough to pass the finger test.



I was wondering similar thing some time ago.

Why would my yanagi shave face and slice newspaper into 2mm strips, but wouldnt slice fish?!? Well it would, but not with the feeling of ease - slicing-through-air alike.

1. I dont ever use chromium oxide for slicers anymore. This makes the edge slippery and useless in my opinion. And fails on fingers, which are just falling of it

2. I found out when my SS 8k works best for me. I dont soak it, i dont exactly splash on it. When I know im soon done with previous stone, I pour water over and repeat when its dry. Nagura is permasoaked and it brings some moisture to the mud, which i try to keep quite stiff.
Works much better for me

3. Lots of mud required on SS

4. Microbevel after stropping with lower grit resin stone, and then newspaper.

That was all improvements. But the biggest would be to question everything. Dont use angles of someone else just because he gets results, do your own system. The same with stone preference and all rest.

tk59
10-02-2011, 02:22 PM
...4. Microbevel after stropping with lower grit resin stone, and then newspaper...Am I understanding you correctly? You are finishing your edge with an 8k SS plus stropping on ??? and then you are putting a microbevel on it with a lower (how low?) grit stone and then stropping again on newspaper? I don't get it...

Citizen Snips
10-02-2011, 02:24 PM
I was wondering similar thing some time ago.

Why would my yanagi shave face and slice newspaper into 2mm strips, but wouldnt slice fish?!? Well it would, but not with the feeling of ease - slicing-through-air alike.

1. I dont ever use chromium oxide for slicers anymore. This makes the edge slippery and useless in my opinion. And fails on fingers, which are just falling of it

2. I found out when my SS 8k works best for me. I dont soak it, i dont exactly splash on it. When I know im soon done with previous stone, I pour water over and repeat when its dry. Nagura is permasoaked and it brings some moisture to the mud, which i try to keep quite stiff.
Works much better for me

3. Lots of mud required on SS

4. Microbevel after stropping with lower grit resin stone, and then newspaper.

That was all improvements. But the biggest would be to question everything. Dont use angles of someone else just because he gets results, do your own system. The same with stone preference and all rest.

^^ this

there are going to be a hundred people here with input and the best thing you can do is try everything. something might work well for you and something else might not work at all for you. the key phrase is "for you". combinations and really understanding what is happening and why will give you the best chance of making an edge that fits what you want from it.

this forum is the best by far because that is what people are posting...experiences. there is nobody here that will tell you that stropping on newspaper or CRO2 felt or microbevels are WRONG. they are just another way of doing things and you have to try them correctly and see if they produce the results you desire. this is why sharpening and knives are so much fun :D

bieniek
10-02-2011, 02:45 PM
Am I understanding you correctly? You are finishing your edge with an 8k SS plus stropping on ??? and then you are putting a microbevel on it with a lower (how low?) grit stone and then stropping again on newspaper? I don't get it...

Why dont you get it? Youve never tried? Why would I only go up with grit, and not down? Usually i would go to 6k, but you got me thinking how would it work with 1k??
Yes, then I do newspaper again

zitangy
10-02-2011, 03:34 PM
a quick question.. your statement.. "Lots of mud required on SS" if so, then then must be enough water on the stone for it to have plenty of slurry. IF surface of stone is dry, the stones will turn black?

love your newspaper trick..

rgds

bieniek
10-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Its hard to be exact with, cause lots for me can be little to you and other way around. Trust your senses :D

You know, when you have soaked SS for lets say, 5-10 minutes, stone absorbed water and when you produce slurry it runs down to your water tank... it drove me crazy so i was thinking how could i get better.
There is enough water cause nagura i soaked and it wont slide on SS unless theres water.
After I might put some more of water a drop from finger or two if I see need for it, But i try to keep the stone as dry as I can.

EdipisReks
10-02-2011, 03:57 PM
just like the Kitayama, i find that you can do lots of things with the 10k superstore depending on how long you soak, how much mud you develop, and how much pressure you apply. i don't think there is any one way to use it. with lots of mud it's a good stone for polishing thinning marks out of secondary bevels.

Seb
10-02-2011, 09:28 PM
Am I understanding you correctly? You are finishing your edge with an 8k SS plus stropping on ??? and then you are putting a microbevel on it with a lower (how low?) grit stone and then stropping again on newspaper? I don't get it...

I can think of three reasons:
1. Going up higher refines the edge and further removes burr and decreases the chances of having a hidden wire that will fail;
2. and a related reason: going back down produced a refined and toothy edge for the all-round performance that a pro like Bieniek needs.
3. Lastly, the newspaper straightens/aligns the micro-teeth without producing more burr.

Seb
10-02-2011, 09:29 PM
just like the Kitayama, i find that you can do lots of things with the 10k superstore depending on how long you soak, how much mud you develop, and how much pressure you apply. i don't think there is any one way to use it. with lots of mud it's a good stone for polishing thinning marks out of secondary bevels.

I just use it because I think it is damn good fun and I dig the kanji on the back. :D

tk59
10-02-2011, 09:58 PM
Why dont you get it? Youve never tried? Why would I only go up with grit, and not down? Usually i would go to 6k, but you got me thinking how would it work with 1k??
Yes, then I do newspaper again Interesting. I've gone up and down before but I've never gone all the way to stropping until the end. I usually don't have much of a burr at all at 5k+ so I didn't feel there was an need for stropping, until the very end just for clean-up. I guess the extra stropping step wouldn't be a bad thing and wouldn't take much more time.

EdipisReks
10-02-2011, 10:43 PM
I just use it because I think it is damn good fun and I dig the kanji on the back. :D

:)

WillC
10-03-2011, 02:51 AM
Interesting thread, I only see any protruding "wire edge" after cutting a new bevel on a 1K king. It is gone after a cork debur followed by light strokes. Then the polishing begins. I find a x10 loupe very useful to check progress, can see if there is any wire forming or microchips and check your hitting the bevel evenly though the higher grits. Invaluable on thin edges with hairs width bevels.