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Peco
10-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Been looking at quite a lot of sharpening vids. Many sharpen their knifes in sections - seems to be the most used. C-Dawg did a few videos where he used a different technique = long strokes covering the whole edge.

Which method do you use? What is the pro's and cons of your method?

Vertigo
10-13-2011, 05:05 PM
Long strokes covering the whole edge, switching hands as I switch sides of the knife. My swarf builds up (and my stones wear out) in an "X" shape.

EdipisReks
10-13-2011, 05:08 PM
i do sectional and sweeping, depending on how i'm feeling it, though most of the time i do the patented Jon Broida sweeping sections (or is it sectional sweeping?). i do sweeping most often when finishing. i don't switch hands, and find myself sweeping more on one side than the other, simply due to my own particular dexterity requirements. as long as you keep your angles and pressure consistent, abrasion is abrasion. knives and stones are different, so different methods feel best, even when you are trying to do the same thing each time.

DwarvenChef
10-13-2011, 05:13 PM
Curtis sure has a way with the long sweaping motions and that worked for him, I picked up a little from his style as well as from others i have watched and tried. And that is the trick, trying as many styles you can find and see what they do for you. Each person has there own way of sharpening by hand. By experimenting you see what works and doesn't work for you. Hand sharpening can be seen as an art form because there is no one RIGHT way of doing it.

wsfarrell
10-13-2011, 06:12 PM
Sweeping looks really cool, but it takes a huge amount of skill to do it right. As Curtis notes in his video, you have to pay special attention to heel and tip, since they're on the stone a lot less compared to the middle of the blade when using this method. I sometimes do it to finish a blade, but it's mostly sectioning for me.

chefofthefuture
10-13-2011, 08:00 PM
you have to pay special attention to heel and tip, since they're on the stone a lot less compared to the middle of the blade when using this method.

+1

Jon has a way of getting around this by picking up the blade slightly at the tip. For me personally I find going slowly over the edge yields better results then quickly flying back and forth over the stones.

Vertigo
10-13-2011, 08:33 PM
Sweeping looks really cool, but it takes a huge amount of skill to do it right.
Interesting. For me, the sweeps were really easy and intuitive, but sectioning was a massive pain that I just didn't have the skills to master. It was like night and day: I had months of terrible results doing it in sections like the videos said, and the first time I tried to emulate C-Dawgs technique I got the best edge I'd had.

I think it just depends on which is easier for you: maintaining angle and pressure over distance, our replicating angle and pressure between sections. I had a much harder time repositioning the knife to a new section and recreating the exact same angle and pressure than I had keeping consistent angle and pressure down the knife's length.

Now that I'm a "not terrible" sharpener (*COUGH*), either way works. :tooth:

mpukas
10-13-2011, 09:25 PM
I've settled into using the full blade sweeps ala C-Dawg while using J-Bro's principals of traditional sectional sharpening, especially for the tip. I switch hands and keep the stone perpendicular to me. And I also use a count-down of strokes on each side. I used to start w/ 20-15-12-10 down to 1 for 1k, 4k & 8k stones. May not be over kill for a new knife, but now I find starting w/ 10-9- down to 1 is still more than enough.

One interesting thing I've discovered (and why I'm particularly glad this thread was started!) is that on a couple of the knives that I have w/ a long flat section - Moritaka 270 kiri-gyuto and Yusuke 300 suji (which I sharpen 99/1 for righty) - I get holes in the edge. I try very hard to keep even pressure along the entire stroke forward and back, and on each side, but I still end up w/ a hole in a particular spot. Not sure it's a grind issue; can't see any over grinding w/ my naked eye or w/ a straight-edge, so I'm not gonna blame that. I usually have to take extra care and grind each side of that spot out sectionally, but as soon as I make a couple of sweeping strokes, it's back again. Haven't noticed any problems on any of my other gyuto's though. Any thoughts anyone? Cheers! mpp

Citizen Snips
10-13-2011, 11:57 PM
im kinda the opposite of all you guys. i posted some vids of sharpening when i learned how to use curtis' method but after some practice i was able to use the section style of sharpening using inspiration from jon, murray, and a few others that made sense. ill post my videos, and remember these are old but could possibly provide some inspiration to those that sweep.

also, keep in mind that these were the first vids i made so they are kinda bad w/o a cameraman and the results are the second two. this is not how i sharpen now but these were some progression of how my sharpening grew. i think that sharpening the way that works best for you is very important.

enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/user/smoovismcgee#p/u/4/UujS-DNq7Ds
http://www.youtube.com/user/smoovismcgee#p/u/3/5f6_rHPP2lk

http://www.youtube.com/user/smoovismcgee#p/u/2/6EAb4dqFw_E
http://www.youtube.com/user/smoovismcgee#p/u/1/1VM9uB9b0Rs

NO ChoP!
10-14-2011, 12:32 AM
I prefer sectional sharpening for one particular reason; I find the hand not holding the handle should always be applying pressure DIRECTLY over the stone. This is not possible with a full sweep, making for inconsistencies.

I also don't like to switch up directions, being that I like my scratch pattern to be uniform.

Jons angle approach does make great logical sense, as I have incorporated this as well...

Again, I agree no particular way is better than another, as long as the angle and pressure are consistent, you're bound to get good results; it's about what works best for you; trial and error.

tk59
10-14-2011, 01:04 AM
I prefer sectional sharpening for one particular reason; I find the hand not holding the handle should always be applying pressure DIRECTLY over the stone. This is not possible with a full sweep, making for inconsistencies...+1

Peco
10-14-2011, 03:26 AM
So when we speak about pressure! Again I watched several vids and the pressure goes from ... let the stone do the work ... to ... press hard.

How much pressure do you apply when sharpening ... a lot, intermediate or light???

Do you change the pressure when changing grit?

JohnnyChance
10-14-2011, 04:18 AM
Some big sweeping strokes, mostly sectional though.


So when we speak about pressure! Again I watched several vids and the pressure goes from ... let the stone do the work ... to ... press hard.

How much pressure do you apply when sharpening ... a lot, intermediate or light???

Do you change the pressure when changing grit?

I change pressure as during the use of each stone and when I change stones.

Peco
10-14-2011, 04:26 AM
Some big sweeping strokes, mostly sectional though.



I change pressure as during the use of each stone and when I change stones.

Which means that the pressure goes up on higher grits - or down?

JohnnyChance
10-14-2011, 04:32 AM
Pressure gets lighter as I use each stone as I try to abrade the burr and wire edge. I do not "pick up where I left off" when I change stones though, I will start the next stone with moderate pressure, more than I finished the last stone with, then again use lighter and lighter strokes as I finish on that stone.

Peco
10-14-2011, 05:32 AM
Thanks :D
@ Cit S ... same to you

Got some knifes I need to destroy on my new Chosera stones ... keep the good adwises comming ;)

Lars
10-14-2011, 08:26 AM
You don't need to use a lot of pressure on the Choseras.. Nice stones, btw..

UglyJoe
10-14-2011, 10:25 AM
I tend to use an extreme hybrid method. Takes a lot of time but you can't argue with the results. For the majority of the work I do a sectional sweeping method, much like Jon. I try and use the "count down" method here, though I don't really count strokes so much as feel and look at the bevel to see where I am - mostly depending on what kind of edge geometry I am trying to achieve. Eventually I hit each sides like once on each side. I'll then strop the knife a few times and then felt pad/block routine. I'l go back to the stone and do a few sweeping strokes like Curtis. This tends to help even out any inconsistencies that occurred during my sectional sharpening. I don't spend a lot of time here, starting with 4 or 5 strokes per side then moving down to 1, again like Curtis. I like to make sure that with the first few sweeping strokes I am raising an even but small burr the length of the edge and that it moves back and forth between sides the way I want it to. Then it's back to the felt block and pad. Then a few stropping strokes like Murray, one more time to the felt block, and one more stropping set on the stone. Then it's time for the next stone. Depending on the knife and what I want the final edge to be like I end with my natural stone or with a strop loaded with diamond.

Pressure depends on the stone, the knife, what I am trying to do, what the polish is looking like, how much mud I've raised, etc. etc. etc. Pressure is one of those things you have to play around with a lot till you get a feel for what you want.

I find that this rigorous routine really helps me eliminate all my wire edges. I follow a very similar routine with my single bevels, but adjust it accordingly to that type of knife. I've seen a remarkable improvement in my edges longevity since developing this routine. For example, I have a Yoshihiro deba that I sharpened up last a while ago, and I've intentionally tried to abuse it to kill the edge. I've broken down some large salmon, a lot of snapper, scaled fish with the knife, cut through bones inappropriately and made tuna for spicy tuna rolls. I even did the Morimoto drumming routine making the spicy tuna, where I intentionally slammed the knife into the board... enough so that it actually stuck in the board multiple times. The knife is still so sharp that it doesn't pop hair, it kind of wisps them away. I've actually been completely amazed by the edge retention on that knife, considering that it's White #2. That deba comes very highly recommended by myself for anyone interested in a deba, by the way.

tk59
10-14-2011, 11:06 AM
I get a similar jump in edge retention when I do a 90 deg deburr on a finishing stone. I got the idea from Memorael. It's basically sharpening twice. My theory is it gets down beyond the fatigued metal more consistently. With regard to pressure, I use more pressure if I'm working on secondary bevels or trying to remove a lot of metal. While I'm estabilishing my primary bevel, I will use less pressure and as I refine my edge I tend to use still less. When I'm finishing up, I use pretty much the weight of the knife unless it's a super light petty or something similar.

Dave Martell
10-14-2011, 11:15 AM
From teaching classes it's become clear to me that there's no right or wrong way for someone to start off with and that people should try it all before making a commitment on whatever being their style. In the end you'll probably wind up doing something in between this and that and be OK with what results you're getting.

The key to getting goods results from whatever technique being used is to take it S-L-O-W and frequently look at your work and analyse what you're doing and make changes as needed.

Peco
10-14-2011, 11:25 AM
From teaching classes it's become clear to me that there's no right or wrong way for someone to start off with and that people should try it all before making a commitment on whatever being their style. In the end you'll probably wind up doing something in between this and that and be OK with what results you're getting.

The key to getting goods results from whatever technique being used is to take it S-L-O-W and frequently look at your work and analyse what you're doing and make changes as needed.

That's exactly what I just did .... slow .... look .... slow .... look. Worked out pretty well - for a beginner ;)

Eamon Burke
10-14-2011, 01:03 PM
I use all of them, depends on what I am doing, what I am doing it with, and what I am doing it to.

Any method is fine, the main focus should be on understanding what is really happening when you sharpen. I know simple-thinkers and old shop-folk prefer the shamanistic approach of "do this this way or else" or "whatever works for you", but I believe it is a simple subject and anyone who wants to sharpen should learn the machanics of how it works.

Dave Martell
10-14-2011, 01:36 PM
....but I believe it is a simple subject and anyone who wants to sharpen should learn the machanics of how it works.


Good point.

NO ChoP!
10-15-2011, 01:30 AM
I think when I first started I used more aggressive pressure. Now I start with moderate, as I think you should start at an appropriate grit, and work your way up, letting the stones do the work. (unless you're getting rid of a chip or doing some serious bevel modification)

I think too much pressure can lead to wobble....

I do lighten up with each progression, ending with feather-light back/ stropping strokes.

Peco
10-15-2011, 03:20 AM
What I found out is that light pressure make me FEEL a lot more. It also gives a nice steady flow which I can control way better than when I press too hard.

Salty dog
10-15-2011, 08:44 AM
I begin with 5lbs pressure when starting on a 400 and lighten up with each step.

Salty dog
10-15-2011, 08:51 AM
+1

+2

BTW, TK, I broke down and ordered one of those 20x loupes.

SpikeC
10-15-2011, 01:56 PM
I think when I first started I used more aggressive pressure. Now I start with moderate, as I think you should start at an appropriate grit, and work your way up, letting the stones do the work. (unless you're getting rid of a chip or doing some serious bevel modification)

I think too much pressure can lead to wobble....




I do lighten up with each progression, ending with feather-light back/ stropping strokes.

This is a good point, let the stone do the work. The point about better feel with less pressure is good as well.

JohnnyChance
10-16-2011, 12:01 AM
+2

BTW, TK, I broke down and ordered one of those 20x loupes.

Uh oh, slippery slope. You know what that means. Next is the microscope.

Salty dog
10-16-2011, 08:29 AM
No way. However I find myself wanting to see it closer. (Never say never)

The thing that's interesting to me is observing the edge after working with certain foods over a certain period of time. Then combine that with how it feels at the time. You can get a pretty good idea of the characteristics of the steel.

In the past I didn't have the time nor inclination to "study" my edges. I just got down to business. I must be getting old.

tk59
10-16-2011, 08:11 PM
No way. However I find myself wanting to see it closer. (Never say never)

The thing that's interesting to me is observing the edge after working with certain foods over a certain period of time. Then combine that with how it feels at the time. You can get a pretty good idea of the characteristics of the steel.

In the past I didn't have the time nor inclination to "study" my edges. I just got down to business. I must be getting old.Haha! It's about time! :thumbsup: