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View Full Version : Upgrading my hones.



WillC
10-17-2011, 11:18 AM
I've been very cheap with my hones so far, My bevel setter has been a 1000/250 combi stone. Only use the 1000gt side. Muddy, quick, needs flatting every time I use it. Then a welsh slate razor hone, around 6000 grit, fast results with slurry and a nice hazy polish on water. From there I have been using a chinese 12K as a base for the 3 nagura stones from maxim.
I just replaced my worn out 1K with a chosera 1K, old news to you guys I know. Problem is i'm now spoiled by the larger stones so i'm about to push the button on some more.:D
This is my thinking, reliable fast non-dishing bevel setters. Followed by a much higher grit fast honing stone, followed by my nagura progression on the 12K, which brings the edge slowly to a burr less mirror. I'm looking at stones which only require a brief soak, or splash and go for convenience.

These are my thinkings

Bevel setting - Chosera 400, (first sharpenings) then 1000gt
Fast polisher - Sigma select 6000gt
I'm tempted to push the button on the 10K sigma too but they are pricey and I think I should stick to my principal of a slower polishing routine at the end for now. Fast and finisher? not sure they go together.

So has anyone tried the sigma on knives?

SeanRogerPierce
10-17-2011, 11:39 AM
I think you should go for the Choseras. Just amazing stones and in my opinion the 1k is the weakest. Love my 3k but the 5k is also very fast and efficient. From that point I finish with chromium oxide on leather (with that I can split hairs; sharp enough for me), so I can't really give you advise how well this will work with your Nagura progression.

WillC
10-17-2011, 11:50 AM
Sean, cheers. I initially thought to go for the chosera's. The chosera 1k is slower than my old muddy 1k but it leaves a nicer finish. Do you see any problem in going from 1K to 5K in the chosera line up?

TB_London
10-17-2011, 11:57 AM
Did you try my 400 and 1k choseras when I was down?
I really like the 400 as a quick bevel setter and the 1k is a good though finish to jump to 5k in my experience.
Loads less messy than king stones, fast and less prone to dishing
Or you could go for a big dmt plate
If the shipping/import on a gesshin stone from Jon isn't too high they get great reviews

WillC
10-17-2011, 12:08 PM
Cheers Tom, I've looked long and hard at Jon's stones. I really like the look of the soakers. But I need a set that are nearly splash and go to start with as i'll use them on my stall as well. I might have to push the button on the chosera 400 and the 5K. 400 1000 5000 would be a nice compact basic package. Then I can takes things further with strop or 12K/nagura.

unkajonet
10-17-2011, 12:24 PM
Jon has a 1k & 5k splash & go. I've got both, and they're both great stones. The 1k leaves a better finish than the Bester 1200 grit. The gesshin 5k also leaves a very nice finish, with a good "bitey" edge.

WillC
10-17-2011, 12:31 PM
Thanks, do you find you can jump easily enough from 1K to 5K? I already have the 1K chosera.

unkajonet
10-17-2011, 12:32 PM
Well, I don't have the chosera, but I have made the jump from both the 1k Gesshin and the 1.2k Bester to the Gesshin 5k with no problem at all.

SeanRogerPierce
10-17-2011, 01:39 PM
Do you see any problem in going from 1K to 5K in the chosera line up?
No, I think it would work very well. The Chosera 5k is very fast for its grit and leaves a nice toothy finish. Quite ideal for kitchen knives in my opinion.

tk59
10-17-2011, 02:23 PM
I have no experience with Sigma products. However, if you want a non-dishing, fast bevel setter, you should consider a fine diamond plate. I'm going to phase out conventional coarse stones, myself. Any of the nice 1k stones will work with a nice 5k stone, as far as I know. Choseras are no exception.

Rottman
10-17-2011, 02:30 PM
Chosera 1k to 5k is absolutely no problem but Chosera 3k in between is nice too, harder than the other stones in the line and leaves a different finish (misty compared to the high polish of the other Choseras).

Eamon Burke
10-17-2011, 03:11 PM
I see nothing wrong with your setup as it is...but if you just want fast, durable and effective, get shapton pros.they are designed to work together, and they do.the higher grit ones have almost no feel, but they are pure function.

WillC
10-17-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm very attracted to the shaptons, because they are still a water stone, but look much less messy in use than everything but a diamond plate. They do look ideal to take with me to shows and stuff. The only problem I can see is that they need to be used as a near full set? to get the scratches out and I can only stomp up for a couple. Your right, there's not much wrong with the present set up, with the addition of a 400gt stone to speed up bevel setting. Its probably mostly a desire to try something a bit different. I think i'll order the 400 and 5000 chosera. Would like to try a coticle out, but I would be worried about it getting damaged taking it out and about:eek2:
Diamond plates make allot of sense, but i'm not ready for that size investment, plus I like the whole slurry thing.
Thanks Guys.

tk59
10-17-2011, 03:55 PM
...The only problem I can see is that they need to be used as a near full set? ...with the addition of a 400gt stone to speed up bevel setting. ...Would like to try a coticle out, but I would be worried about it getting damaged taking it out and about...
Full set: Any sacrifice you are making by skipping grit levels on one stone will be the same with another one. I don't think this is a problem. The problem with Shaptons (other than the lack of feedback) is they are hard. Hard stones tend to give more faceting (not a great-looking finish) vs. the gentle convex bevels you get with softer stones. If that doesn't bother you, they are probably fine.
400 grit: With the steel you are working, I don't understand how bevel setting needs shortening. If your edge is as thin as it should be (or as I think it should be) before putting in your bevel, it shouldn't take you more than perhaps 5 min to set your bevel and move on to a finishing stone.
Coticule: I don't understand this reasoning. Coticule doesn't seem any more delicate than other stones, in my experience.

TB_London
10-17-2011, 04:49 PM
Coticule is just more expensive i guess

Shaptons are hard, my 12k feels awkward unless i build a slurry with a worn fine dmt first. Much prefer the choseras to work on, though if you're used to the slate stones you're used to hard stones i guess.....

You could always get a monster king stone, i'm tempted just because of the size.........

WillC
10-17-2011, 04:50 PM
Mmm well i've ordered the 400 chosera and 5000. They seem like a good investment. I've not used anything else except my generic muddy 1K to set bevels from scratch, I stopped doing any kind of bevel on the grinder at all, leaving the edge a .1mm or so before honing. The muddy generic 1k did the job just fine, although very dishy and not as nice a finish as the chosera 1K, the chosera does not seem to cut the bevel from scratch so quickly, so I've ordered the 400 to knock the corners off if you like, and use the 1K to set the bevel. Maybe the 800 would have filled the gap better with one stone, but too late now..
If I bought a coticle, it would have to be the only stone I bought, as a result if I dropped it, i'd be f**:D

SeanRogerPierce
10-17-2011, 04:55 PM
You will love the Chosera 400. I do. To make it even faster you can build up slurry with the included Nagura.

WillC
10-17-2011, 05:15 PM
Excellent, i'm getting excited now... yes about stones. Something that baffles my Mrs even more than my obsession with metal.:laugh:

Rottman
10-17-2011, 05:24 PM
+1 on Chosera 400, great stone, just right for setting bevels.

wsfarrell
10-17-2011, 05:33 PM
I see nothing wrong with your setup as it is...but if you just want fast, durable and effective, get shapton pros.they are designed to work together, and they do.the higher grit ones have almost no feel, but they are pure function.

+1 on Shapton Pro. If I could only have 1 stone, it would be the 2k Pro. Splash and go, feels good, cuts like a demon, doesn't dish. Easy jump to 5k anything.

Schtoo
10-17-2011, 10:30 PM
I've tried the Sigma on knives. Several times.

I'm glad I have several Chosera stones, they're reasonably nice to use and work reasonably quickly as well. I only have #400, #1000 and #5000, and in the past I've used them as benchmarks by which to evaluate other stones, more than anything else. They're very good, and while they're not at all cheap, you do get your money's worth.

I'm even more glad they're not the only stones on my shelf though...

Stu.

WillC
10-18-2011, 04:11 AM
Thanks Guys I can see myself with a mobile set and a home set at some point in the future. The shaptons or diamond plates would seem ideal for where i'm working with limited space/water. I'm glad i've got the chosera stones to start with though. I wish they had not made the 1K green as its not a good look on the finger nails. But you can't have everything.:D

Seb
10-19-2011, 06:23 AM
For a mobile set, the Shapton GlassStones are well worth a look. :)

Thanks for the heads up on the Smurf Poo - there is some flying my way right now!

WillC
10-20-2011, 06:21 PM
No worries Seb. My stones arrived today. I blunted my kitchen beater/grind experiment knife just so I could do the full works:D
There quick, only a few strokes on the 400, 1000, The 5000 is much quicker than I am used to at this grit range, I can detect burr, which I can not with my slate razor hone. Probably need to get used to a change in pressure, I have the C12K Nagura progression to loose any burr though.
Its all left me very interested in the 10K:D
Thanks for the advice guys.

Rottman
10-20-2011, 07:34 PM
Its all left me very interested in the 10K:D


A bit pricey, eh?
The Naniwa 10k Superstone follows the Choseras nicely. If you like mirror it's for you, a little on the soft side, gouges easily, trains technique.

Seb
10-20-2011, 10:18 PM
The high-grit stone I am enjoying at the moment is the King G-1 #8000. It's soft but not as prone to gouging as the SS10. It's very easy to use, muddy but not as muddy as the SS10. Gives a hazy not mirror finish. If you strop on loaded leather after it will turn into a mirror. I just spritz it with my water-gun and then leave it for 5 before I start on it.

I am going to load the Smurf Poo on a new bovine leather mag-pad that just arrived! :D

jwpark
10-21-2011, 03:06 AM
Anyone have bad results with the Chocera 5K on stainless steel knives??

I love my Chocera 5K for carbon knives, but on stainless, I feel it's lot sharpness from progressing from my Sigma Power 1k stone.

Jay

Dubsy
10-22-2011, 01:06 PM
i dont see why everyones always going gaga over actual japanese water stones. Naniwa's are pretty expensive.
everyone at work that has stones (some just use a diamond steel and bench grinder :bashhead:) uses Norton Water stones. i have a 220/1k and 4k/8k stone, and they work AMAZINGLY well. they cut quick, they're bigger than most *** stones, and the 8k puts a mirror finish on the edge. they flatten quick too. gouging is moderate, nothing terrible.

Schtoo
10-22-2011, 02:15 PM
i dont see why everyones always going gaga over actual japanese water stones.

Interesting? Ever used an actual Japanese stone? I should rephrase that to 'stones' but even a really good one is better than nothing at all for comparison's sake.

I admit, I only have one Norton, a #1000 and it's not bad actually. Good feel, works fairly quickly and just seems to work well. I'd like to get a #4000 and #8000 just to see what they're like, but haven't come across a pair/combo at a price I'm willing to pay to get them.

(Hint, I get 'actual' Japanese stones cheaper than you do. Any/All of you. ;) )


Please, if you have the means and/or opportunity please try some good Japanese stones. I am not saying that the Norton are not good in their own right, but at the same time you're not comparing apples to apples either. You may not change your mind, and I wouldn't dream that you do so on my account, but it might be eye opening and you might find something in your Norton that you might not have realised before.

Stu.

WillC
10-28-2011, 07:01 PM
Well I've had some time with the Chosera stones and I really like them. They have made things allot quicker for me, especially when doing the first sharpening. I'm still getting used to the speed as i'm not used to raising such a burr off a 5000gt stone. I thought it was slow at first, but it has a distinct scratch pattern through my loupe I wouldn't say its a polisher, but i'm getting good results going straight from the 5K to chromium oxide, although scratches from the 5K are still visible on the bevel. For a full polish i'm doing the Nagura progression with the chinese 12K, which although a tad slow has great results. But later I may add a faster 10K for the knives. I would get the ss10K but want something a bit harder, and cheaper than the chosera 10K. I'll keep my eye on the feedback from the sigma passaround.:D

Seb
10-28-2011, 09:17 PM
Not sure how you feel about the Shapton GlassStones but, imho, the GS #16000-grit is a real winner.

Cuts faster, polishes brighter and clearer than a SS10K, Kitayama or King G-1 (I own and use all of them just for kicks), and not super hard, either, they feel quite nice, again imo. BWJ can easily give a quote if you're interested.

I'm not ashamed to admit it, but I was once in love with this stone. And it wasn't just a 'physical' relationship, either. :D

BTW, my Smurf Poo (two sticks) arrived today - can't wait to rub it on some bovine leather. Might keep it in my pocket for awhile first (yes, I probably do need to seek counselling soon). harhar

Schtoo
10-28-2011, 11:58 PM
Not sure how you feel about the Shapton GlassStones but, imho, the GS #16000-grit is a real winner.

Cuts faster, polishes brighter and clearer than a SS10K, Kitayama or King G-1 (I own and use all of them just for kicks), and not super hard, either, they feel quite nice, again imo. BWJ can easily give a quote if you're interested.




In my experience, the GS #16000 does create a very, very good edge. Better than nearly anything else I've tried.

But it's also one of the nastiest stones I've ever used. There are a few stones that I smile at, one I've laughed at (a mind blowingly good prototype), even fewer I curse at.

The GS #16K is one that I curse at. Every time I use it. I wish it'd never been created, just so I wouldn't need to have gotten one to suck-and-see with.

Sorry Seb, I think it's crap. And I'm being really nice about it.

Stu.

Seb
10-29-2011, 01:03 AM
In my experience, the GS #16000 does create a very, very good edge. Better than nearly anything else I've tried.

But it's also one of the nastiest stones I've ever used. There are a few stones that I smile at, one I've laughed at (a mind blowingly good prototype), even fewer I curse at.

The GS #16K is one that I curse at. Every time I use it. I wish it'd never been created, just so I wouldn't need to have gotten one to suck-and-see with.

Sorry Seb, I think it's crap. And I'm being really nice about it.

Stu.

Sure, but would you care to elaborate on what, according to you, makes suck so hard?

IME, it's not that hard and it does give feedback (which are two of the most common whines I've heard about the GS series). It cuts ridiculously fast for its grit rating and it gives a shinier shine (in the right hands, of course) than the SuperStone 10K.

I should note that I fervently dislike the grey GS#8K (which I also own) because it is so damn hard it feels like a bathroom tile when you grind on it. But the 16K has an almost 'buttery' feel by comparison.

What's not to like?

PS: the GS#16K cuts faster than the King #6k (generic) that I am trying out at the moment.

Schtoo
10-29-2011, 02:13 PM
It's not so much a case of hard or soft, but that it's just a PITA if you have more than the merest whisper of steel on it.

In order to get anything resembling good work out of it, I need to be very light with my touch, best if I leave some slurry on there (and I need to make some) and water on there is critical. The slightest amount, but not too little or it grabs, too much and it aquaplanes.

Where it's happy is such a tiny zone, and you need to put in more than a little bit of effort to get into that small area of decent performance, well, I suppose if I'd not used anything better I'd be pleased about it what it does because yes, it does make great edges.

You know I can't tell you what I prefer without making Dave unhappy. It gives a better edge I think, and it's a heck of a lot easier to get that edge. No fuss, no trouble, no special tricks. Heck, even a Shapton Pro 12K is easier to use than the GS 16K, and I'm not a huge fan of the Pro either.

Just how I see it. There's not many synthetic extremely high grit stones out there (past 10K) and there's only one I've used more than a few times that's actually nice to use. If the 16K wasn't such a right PITA, I might give it some more time and effort to milk the performance out of it, but I've got better, why not just use it?

Stu.

Cadillac J
10-29-2011, 02:47 PM
i dont see why everyones always going gaga over actual japanese water stones. Naniwa's are pretty expensive.
everyone at work that has stones (some just use a diamond steel and bench grinder :bashhead:) uses Norton Water stones. i have a 220/1k and 4k/8k stone, and they work AMAZINGLY well. they cut quick, they're bigger than most *** stones, and the 8k puts a mirror finish on the edge. they flatten quick too. gouging is moderate, nothing terrible.

My first stones were those exact Norton combo stones that you have. They are good stones (except the 220 is a joke of a coarse stone as it dishes like a bar of soap), but I much prefer my Naniwas and Bester for feel and speed. Use whatever you like best.