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scott6452
10-25-2011, 03:34 PM
Hi all

Im in the market for a 270mm gyuto and am toying with the idea of getting one in zdp-189. The two main contendors (if i did decide to pull the trigger) are the Konosuke 270 zdp and the Sanetsu from JCK.

Obviously these knives are very different from one another. One solid steel, one damascus clad. One WA handle one western. The only sanetsu left on JCK is with a black linen micarta handle.

So my question is if you had to choose between the two, which one would it be? Or would it even be one of them? Many thanks for the future advice :)

EdipisReks
10-25-2011, 03:40 PM
i'd get a Henckels Cermax. the blade geometry is similar to Konosuke (it has that classic Sakai shape), it's well made with good f&f, and can be had fairly inexpensively. i got a 240mm on eBay this past week and i'd be happy to keep it, though i ended up selling it to a friend.

James
10-25-2011, 04:04 PM
+1 on the cermax; then just get a rehandle/wa conversion with the money you saved

EdipisReks
10-25-2011, 04:28 PM
i don't think it really needs a rehandle. the handle is very nice linen micarta, and it's perfectly comfortable in a pinch grip, to me at least.

RRLOVER
10-25-2011, 08:32 PM
If your in the market for a thing of beauty with the best western handle I ever handled,buy the Sanestu.If you just want zdp-189 buy the henckels.

TDj
10-25-2011, 08:36 PM
i have a cermax santoku and i'd consider the cermax gyuto, but personally i just don't like sharpening it - it's just tougher than carbon and other stainless that i have. that said - I'd say get the cermax and grind off the majority of the silly endcap that's basically a paperweight on the end of the handle (someone did that at KF - it restored the balance of his santoku from handle-heavy to normal or something like that).

scott6452
10-25-2011, 08:39 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Well thats the thing. I think i am put off the Henckels slightly as i was looking for something special. A 270 gyuto that would never need to be replaced (i say that now....).

Im not sure if i am just being slightly snobby and not wanting to go with the mass produced brand but i just dont find the Henckels in league with the other two.

Does anybody have any idea about the hardness of the Sanetsu? Also the thickness? I vaguely remember reading it wasnt as high as the 55-56hrc of other zdp's? Maybe im mistaken

RRLOVER
10-25-2011, 08:44 PM
I can get you the specs off my Sanetsu,except the RC.

EdipisReks
10-25-2011, 08:50 PM
I vaguely remember reading it wasnt as high as the 55-56hrc of other zdp's? Maybe im mistaken

65-66, you mean. i wouldn't spend that amount of money on a stainless knife, myself.

TDj
10-25-2011, 08:51 PM
marko and devin are flirting with powdered steels as well - you may consider getting one from them as well. it's devin's steel and it's clad PM.

RRLOVER
10-25-2011, 08:58 PM
Here's the Sanetsu specs,If someone besides Gator has one I would love to know If the specs are the same.

overall lenght: 405mm
edge length: 260mm
over the heel: 2.37mm
mid blade:1.99mm
tip: .74mm

scott6452
10-25-2011, 09:28 PM
65-66, you mean. i wouldn't spend that amount of money on a stainless knife, myself.

Apologies, yes. I'd be even more insane if i was looking at 55! Just out of curiosity, what would appeal more about carbon to you at that price rather than one of the "super steels" ?

maddog
10-25-2011, 09:42 PM
I'm curious as to how zdp-189 performs in a kitchen knife.Have any of you expierienced any problems?Chipping?
I've a couple of pocket knives with it but I don't know if I'd consider it in a kitchen knife.

EdipisReks
10-25-2011, 09:46 PM
Apologies, yes. I'd be even more insane if i was looking at 55! Just out of curiosity, what would appeal more about carbon to you at that price rather than one of the "super steels" ?

carbon is just different. it feels best on water stones, the patina process makes it feel more "alive," and i've found that i get the keenest edges with carbon (takefu V2 being the keenest, followed by whatever Iizuka-san uses in his "spicy" knives, then White #2 and Blue #2). the edges don't last as long, but i strop and sharpen often, anyway.

i've been using the Cermax 240, and i've found no problems. it, in fact, hasn't lost any keenness at all over 4 days of cooking, which is pretty crazy. i'll have to buy one to keep, it's really nice. crazy that i got it for $150, brand new, and crazy that i sold it before even trying it (though i required that i be allowed to use it for a couple weeks).

James
10-25-2011, 09:47 PM
I have it in a petty, and as such, it works well, as it doesn't see much board contact; not chippy at all and holds a good edge. I'm not sure about having it in gyuto/santoku though. I imagine chipping propensity increases with more board contact/abuse

maddog
10-25-2011, 10:15 PM
I have it in a petty, and as such, it works well, as it doesn't see much board contact; not chippy at all and holds a good edge. I'm not sure about having it in gyuto/santoku though. I imagine chipping propensity increases with more board contact/abuse

That's what I was thinking. And why I asked.

welshstar
10-25-2011, 10:55 PM
What is the Sanetsu being referred to please

NO ChoP!
10-25-2011, 11:04 PM
I find my Cermax to have everlasting edge retention. But, it is slightly chippy; I've said it to be comparable to the Tojiro DP in this aspect. Still a great blade, just not good for the rock chopper, or board walker....

I bet most here would go the route of honyaki if they were to spend $800 on a knife, over the ZDP; not that there is anything wrong with it, but a honyaki has a certain level of prestige....

That hamon line is like a Rolex crown.

RRLOVER
10-25-2011, 11:11 PM
I bet most here would go the route of honyaki if they were to spend $800 on a knife, over the ZDP; not that there is anything wrong with it, but a honyaki has a certain level of prestige....

That hamon line is like a Rolex crown.

Why can't you have both:groucho:

NO ChoP!
10-25-2011, 11:17 PM
True that! Rock your Rolex AND an Audemar!!!

mpukas
10-26-2011, 01:13 PM
Over on Fred's (http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10935-ZDP-189-Revised) MadRookie got one of the Konosuke ZDP-189 240 gyuto's w/ a custom handle f/ Mark. He has nothing but good things to say about it. Says it's easier to sharpen and less chippy than a Cermax.

Customfan
10-26-2011, 02:02 PM
Nothing but good things to say about the Sanetsu... I own the ZDP-189 210mm Western Gyuto with cocobolo version from Koki and no chipping yet.. the retention on this knife is very good! :biggrin:

Its well balanced
Integral bolser, full tang and cap.
5 pins and a mosaic pin.
HRC at 63... aparently can be hardened to 67.
2.29 mm spine at heel
49mm height.
Nickel and stainless damascus steel finished
Mirror polish
ZDP-189 marking and Kajin Saku kanji on the back

It would still be my first choice...

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 06:40 PM
I would advocate spending some time using zdp or a similar PM steel before investing that much in a knife made out of the stuff. Granted not all, PM knives are created (HT'ed) equal, butl at east you'll get an idea of how it behaves.

I have found that it gets very sharp, but.that it degraded from 100% sharp to 85% sharp just about as quickly as a good carbon steel (if not faster than some) but that it holds that 85-75% edge for a CRAZY long time.

However, with a carbon blade, i can take it from 80 back to 90%+ in just a minute or 2. The ZDP takes more work to bring back to 90%. Because of this, the carbon knives on my rack are almost always sharper than my PM knives.

So, if you're happy with 0 maintenance and an 80% sharp edge then ZDP might be for you. If not having an atom-splitting edge on your knife at all times will bother you, then you won't see much advantage to it over something cheaper.

Some people really love it, some arnt that impressed. It would be a shame to find out that you're the latter after spending $800.

K-Fed
10-27-2011, 11:53 PM
I have found that it gets very sharp, but.that it degraded from 100% sharp to 85% sharp just about as quickly as a good carbon steel (if not faster than some) but that it holds that 85-75% edge for a CRAZY long time.

+1 This was exactly the case with the SRS-15 in the Akifusa that I once adored. It was a PITA to sharpen, didn't really stay wicked sharp for too long, and all said and done my carbon knives saw much more board time because of it.

tk59
10-28-2011, 01:44 AM
I'd be careful about lumping all pm steels in the same category. ZDP-189 is totally different than almost any other steel. You can put almost any steel through a pm process. Putting the "p" in the name basically just guarantees a smaller than typical carbide size than you'd get otherwise. I'm not convinced the process intrinsically leads to a rapid loss of initial sharpness compared to anything else with similar carbide size and volume.

scott6452
10-30-2011, 03:44 PM
Well ive finally made up my mind and pulled the trigger!

Ive went for a 240 from the new batch of Tanaka gyutos that went up on JCK. I'll post pics up when it arrives, now the famous wait begins :laugh:

scott6452
11-04-2011, 09:03 AM
Wow big thumbs up to the postal services of the world. Ordered the Knife on sunday night and it arrived at my door Thursday morning. So to summerise,the Tanaka has arrived! And it arrived just in time for me going to work so it has already been subjected to 8 hours of poly board abuse (yes i may have cried).

The edge held up very well, better than any of my hattori Hd's or Fh's. Infact while the edge will no longer shave, i notice next to no real world difference in food cutting after my shift, with no touch up or stropping. The looks, well, it looks amazing! Theres a slight scratch down one side of the etch which im not too concerned about, might go about fixing it at some point. One thing that pleasantly surprised me was the handle on this knife. I have read so many comments about the handle being too small so im not sure if Tanaka has taken them on board, but if anything this handle is bigger than the one on my HD.

So to sum up, very happy with the knife and im sure we'll have many fun chopping adventures to come. Some Pics:

http://s7.postimage.org/l1mdvb4y3/SDC10544_800x600.jpg
http://s7.postimage.org/e7c35mcaz/SDC10542_800x600.jpg
http://s7.postimage.org/r7nu21yvf/SDC10547_800x600.jpg
http://s7.postimage.org/g48ta72yz/SDC10545_800x600.jpg
http://s7.postimage.org/maa9gxwwb/SDC10548_800x600.jpg

Timthebeaver
11-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Handle not small at all. Awesome knife.

SpikeC
11-04-2011, 02:48 PM
I have a Tanaka petty that looks just like the little brother of your new knife! They are very cool tools.

JohnnyChance
11-05-2011, 06:09 AM
Is it an optical illusion or does that thing have a ton of belly? Looks handsome though.

EdipisReks
11-05-2011, 07:03 PM
Is it an optical illusion or does that thing have a ton of belly? Looks handsome though.

i believe it's all belly, but it would still work just fine with a bit of forward and back.

scott6452
11-05-2011, 11:25 PM
Is it an optical illusion or does that thing have a ton of belly? Looks handsome though.

Not as much as the picture may suggest, the spine and handle all have a slight curve aswell with may look deceiving. There is about 2.5"-3" of flat at the start of the blade. Infact better option, picture!

http://s9.postimage.org/ad8heoipb/IMG_0229_800x600.jpg

JohnnyChance
11-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Not bad at all! I rock some, that would work for me.

scott6452
12-13-2011, 05:45 PM
Just a small update on the old Tanaka. I have sharpened it a few times and find it very easy to take an edge. The edge is so thin to begin with that very little metal needs removed. I have put a 13 degree per side edge on the blade and have had zero chipping problems. However the most im pressive part of this knife for me is how long the edge lasts. It has had a week of pretty hard use since i sharpened it, having to chop for a couple of weddings. I havnt babied it in the slightest, throwing squash, turnip etc. at it. So far the edge is still able to shave arm hair (albeit with a few passes now). And to top off the poor things hardship, all its use has been on poly boards. My recent addition of the borosilicate rod has no doubt helped but the knife really is amazing.

One minor niggle is that the small etch scratch mentioned above seems to be laughing at me. I was thinking about re-etching the knife but then thought i might just take the etch off and try it without for a while? Not sure. What do you guys think?

tk59
12-13-2011, 07:22 PM
If you don't care about the look of the etch, go for it. I might peform a little better or possibly worst, if you get more sticking.