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welshstar
10-26-2011, 12:13 AM
Hi

Looking at Marks offering of a 240 Gyuto in CRM154 with rosewood and ebony handle it seems to be a very beautiful knife for a great price.

Every time i see anything online though it seems as if things are not what they seem !! now i know Mark is a well respected guy so has anyone putchased a ******** knife and would you recommend ?

Also which of the finish sharpeners that Mark uses would you recommend, the guy Michiel Vanhourdt doesnt seem to get a lot of love but his videos do seem to indicate a very sharp beautiful knife for a good price.

Thanks

Alan

welshstar
10-26-2011, 12:15 AM
Hi

Looking at Marks offering of a 240 Gyuto in CRM154 with rosewood and ebony handle it seems to be a very beautiful knife for a great price.

Every time i see anything online though it seems as if things are not what they seem !! now i know Mark is a well respected guy so has anyone putchased a ******** knife and would you recommend ?

Also which of the finish sharpeners that Mark uses would you recommend, the guy Michiel Vanhourdt doesnt seem to get a lot of love but his videos do seem to indicate a very sharp beautiful knife for a good price.

Thanks

Alan

Oops posted and saw stars !! im guessing theres a reason for that, sorry if im crossing any protocols, not my intent

Dave Martell
10-26-2011, 12:26 AM
Oops posted and saw stars !! im guessing theres a reason for that, sorry if im crossing any protocols, not my intent

It's 100% cool to post what you did but the links will be broken going to that site. See THIS (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1740-Censored-name)

Dave Martell
10-26-2011, 12:30 AM
Hi

Looking at Marks offering of a 240 Gyuto in CRM154 with rosewood and ebony handle it seems to be a very beautiful knife for a great price.

Every time i see anything online though it seems as if things are not what they seem !! now i know Mark is a well respected guy so has anyone putchased a ******** knife and would you recommend ?

Also which of the finish sharpeners that Mark uses would you recommend, the guy Michiel Vanhourdt doesnt seem to get a lot of love but his videos do seem to indicate a very sharp beautiful knife for a good price.

Thanks

Alan


I can't speak for this knife as I haven't seen it yet but if I was choosing a listed available sharpener on that site I'd go with Eamon Burke over any of the other sharpeners offered and that's because he seems to know about 500x more than the other guys do and that's not just regarding sharpening knives either. :)

TDj
10-26-2011, 09:47 AM
i've only heard that the 2 is a vast improvement over the 1 in terms of geometry and steel (so i guess those are a big deal). that said, it's a pretty tall knife so you have to be "into" that sort of thing. I think the proportion looks kind of weird because it's so tall - doesn't the machi look kinda wimpy? could just be an optical illusion.

tk59
10-26-2011, 09:58 AM
Sounds like a nice knife but I haven't tried one out nor do I know anyone that has. It's on my list of knives to try, just not high enough to actually get here.

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 12:19 PM
Im currently finishing up a long term eval / review of both the Addict and Remedy.
The steel is really very impressive for stainless: maybe my new #2 next to AEB-L.

As for the knife: I like it too.
A few main points (taken as pros or cons as per your prefs / wants)

-very thin, light knife.
Steel hardness and blade height make it reasonably rigid, but it doesn't feel as stable as

tk59
10-26-2011, 12:26 PM
...The steel is really very impressive for stainless: maybe my new #2 next to AEB-L... ...Steel hardness and blade height make it reasonably rigid, but it doesn't feel as stable as It's cpm154, right? Have you tried other blades in that steel? Also, apparently the hardness has nothing to do with rigidity. By stable, you mean the ability to keep the knife cutting in a straight line? Is that from the height?

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Sorry my last post got cut off:
Im currently finishing up a long term eval / review of both the Addict and Remedy.
The steel is really very impressive for stainless: maybe my new #2 next to AEB-L.

As for the knife: I like it too.
A few main points (taken as pros or cons as per your prefs / wants)

-very thin, light knife.
Steel hardness and blade height make it reasonably rigid, but it doesn't feel as stable as the gen1 version. There is a huge gain in cutting performance though as the blade is also much thinner behind the edge.

-handle is actually pretty decently made and finished (certainly not custom level, but good for a "factory" handle). However, its on the small size. A bigger handle would upset the balance of the knife, and if you have small to avg size hands you might really like it as is anyway.

-profile is more watanabe / western than traditional Japanese. Its flat for the first 40% of the blade and then transitions pretty rapidly into a very round belly and a medium-high nose(tip). I could be imagining things, but i feel like its little less curvey than the gen1.

-the factory edge is not even close to the full potential of the steel and blade; it can take a much finer angle and get much sharper. Either send it to Eamon or, if you enjoy sharpening, plan to do it yourself right away.

As soon as i get my pc sorted out (corrupted drive) and have some editing time on my hands, I'll get some vids posted.

Eamon Burke
10-26-2011, 01:56 PM
I haven't handled the addict 2s yet, but they are made with the same steel and heat treat as the remedies, which I have. The heat treat is fantastic. The factory edges are not at all what they can be.

My favorite thing about these is that they are totally domestically sourced, and what ever faults they have, they are way better than any other american factory made knife.

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 02:46 PM
It's cpm154, right? Have you tried other blades in that steel? A iz etfef than lso, apparently the hardness has nothing to do with rigidity. By stable, you mean the ability to keep the knife cutting in a straight line? Is that from the height?

Yes, cpm154. This is the 1st that i have tried in the PM 154, but i have used a few in the old 154cm and this one is much better: takes a much finer edge, is easier to get sharp, toughness and edge retention are at least as good.

As for the issue of rigidity, saying "hardness" effects it may be misleading, as its actually the heat treat the effects properties like hardness and flex. When i say rigidity, i am referring to both the lateral and torsional flex; stability is how detectable it is under cutting load (while using the knife).

It's certainly rigid enough that making straight/even cuts is no problem. even shaving fairly dense roots like beets and carrots is OK. Where i can feel a little wiggle is on the power cuts splitting big, hard squash, yams,or doing a rock-chop through a big pile of tough stuff.

While the height of the blade makes it more rigid(due to the extra material) it also makes it little trickier to control (for me this is compounded by the handle being too small for my hands). However, adjusting technique / thinking of it like a short cleaver instead of a tall knife..

Larrin
10-26-2011, 03:34 PM
Heat treatment/hardness doesn't effect flex.

tk59
10-26-2011, 04:44 PM
...The heat treat is fantastic...Compared to what other HT of cpm154? I only have experience with Butch's and Pierre's. Is that HT better than theirs?

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Heat treatment/hardness doesn't effect flex.

Interesting. Then why does steel that's been anealed to a low hardness bend more easily?
I have seen 2 blades of very similar dimensions and composition with very different rigidity.

WildBoar
10-26-2011, 05:15 PM
Bending (as flexure is usually meant wrt the knives) is a function of the modulus of elasticity and the section modulus. The modulus of elasticity is a material property, while the section modulus is a geometric property. I am surprised to hear the modulus of elasticity is not affected by the heat treatment.

Larrin
10-26-2011, 05:22 PM
Interesting. Then why does steel that's been anealed to a low hardness bend more easily?
I have seen 2 blades of very similar dimensions and composition with very different rigidity.
You can "bend" as in plastic deformation, or make a "set" more easily with annealed or low hardness steel. The flex doesn't change. I even studied this myself before I'd taken any real materials science courses: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/817066/tp/3/


Bending (as flexure is usually meant wrt the knives) is a function of the modulus of elasticity and the section modulus. The modulus of elasticity is a material property, while the section modulus is a geometric property. I am surprised to hear the modulus of elasticity is not affected by the heat treatment.
Elastic modulus is controlled by bond strength (of atoms), which isn't effected by heat treatment. It can be changed through varying composition (different steels) but these changes are fairly minimal in most steels. Also it can be changed by temperature.

Eamon Burke
10-26-2011, 05:41 PM
Compared to what other HT of cpm154? I only have experience with Butch's and Pierre's. Is that HT better than theirs?
Most of my experience with c p m 154 is pocket knives, and I haven't even even seen one of Butch's knives in person, so I can't say. but it doesn't matter much because I didn't get to put the remedies through the paces, so my assessment comes from comparing sharpening. the heat treat was done by brad at peters and it took one of the best edges of any stainless I've worked with.

The grinds needed improvement, but that its supposed to be fixed, hence Addict 2. But the steel is great.

Justin0505
10-26-2011, 06:14 PM
Larrin! Dude! You're blowing my mind a bit. All of my eexperience has been completely anecdotal, so Im not arguing, just trying to understand...

One of the ways that i had always thought about this is that steel's resistance to force increases as it approaches its bending or breaking point. Thus, because a harder steel is closer to its breaking point than the softer, it resistance to the flexing force increases more rapidly. But you're saying that's wrong?

So lets say that we take 2 pieces of the same steel: one very hard and one very soft. Lets say that we determine that the hard piece will bend /break at 10 decrees of flex.
Then lets say that we bend both pieces to 9.9degrees and measured the force on each...
According to what you're saying, it would be the same?


So to out it another way, according to what you're saying the reason why a softer edge will deform but a harder edge will not isn't because the harder edge isn't flexing the same amount but because the harder edge is actually flexing and springing back where as the softer edge is bending?

WildBoar
10-26-2011, 06:19 PM
You can "bend" as in plastic deformation, or make a "set" more easily with annealed or low hardness steel. The flex doesn't change. I even studied this myself before I'd taken any real materials science courses: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/817066/tp/3/


Elastic modulus is controlled by bond strength (of atoms), which isn't effected by heat treatment. It can be changed through varying composition (different steels) but these changes are fairly minimal in most steels. Also it can be changed by temperature.Thanks for the info. We learned how to calculate E in a lab based on stress/ strain, but not what helps determine E. I know temperature affects it, but basically we assume normal room temperature ranges for the knives, and not 200 deg F + in-service temps.

WildBoar
10-26-2011, 06:26 PM
Larrin! Dude! You're blowing my mind a bit. All of my eexperience has been completely anecdotal, so Im not arguing, just trying to understand...

One of the ways that i had always thought about this is that steel's resistance to force increases as it approaches its bending or breaking point. Thus, because a harder steel is closer to its breaking point than the softer, it resistance to the flexing force increases more rapidly. But you're saying that's wrong?

So lets say that we take 2 pieces of the same steel: one very hard and one very soft. Lets say that we determine that the hard piece will bend /break at 10 decrees of flex.
Then lets say that we bend both pieces to 9.9degrees and measured the force on each...
According to what you're saying, it would be the same?


So to out it another way, according to what you're saying the reason why a softer edge will deform but a harder edge will not isn't because the harder edge isn't flexing the same amount but because the harder edge is actually flexing and springing back where as the softer edge is bending?the bending you are describing is probably better thought of a deflection, and is a function of section modulus, moment of inertia, load and span length. Assuming same blade geometry and same load (force), the one that delects less is the one with the higher modulus of elasticity. And when you talk about breaking under flexure, you are now in the realm of ultimate bending strength, well beyond the elastic range.

Eamon Burke
10-26-2011, 07:42 PM
Larrin! Dude! You're blowing my mind a bit. All of my eexperience has been completely anecdotal, so Im not arguing, just trying to understand...

One of the ways that i had always thought about this is that steel's resistance to force increases as it approaches its bending or breaking point. Thus, because a harder steel is closer to its breaking point than the softer, it resistance to the flexing force increases more rapidly. But you're saying that's wrong?

So lets say that we take 2 pieces of the same steel: one very hard and one very soft. Lets say that we determine that the hard piece will bend /break at 10 decrees of flex.
Then lets say that we bend both pieces to 9.9degrees and measured the force on each...
According to what you're saying, it would be the same?


So to out it another way, according to what you're saying the reason why a softer edge will deform but a harder edge will not isn't because the harder edge isn't flexing the same amount but because the harder edge is actually flexing and springing back where as the softer edge is bending?

Keep in mind that the variation between the elasticity of different metals is going to be very minor compared to the difference between the flex provided by different geometry. In other words, if you make knives out of FlexySteel1 and RigidSteel2, but you grind the RigidSteel2 knife to be thin, and fully flat ground, versus the Flexysteel1 being ground a millimeter or two thicker, with a less dramatic taper from spine to edge, it will flex less.

The grind and design matters way more than the steel properties.

Larrin
10-26-2011, 08:01 PM
Larrin! Dude! You're blowing my mind a bit. All of my eexperience has been completely anecdotal, so Im not arguing, just trying to understand...

One of the ways that i had always thought about this is that steel's resistance to force increases as it approaches its bending or breaking point. Thus, because a harder steel is closer to its breaking point than the softer, it resistance to the flexing force increases more rapidly. But you're saying that's wrong?

So lets say that we take 2 pieces of the same steel: one very hard and one very soft. Lets say that we determine that the hard piece will bend /break at 10 decrees of flex.
Then lets say that we bend both pieces to 9.9degrees and measured the force on each...
According to what you're saying, it would be the same?


So to out it another way, according to what you're saying the reason why a softer edge will deform but a harder edge will not isn't because the harder edge isn't flexing the same amount but because the harder edge is actually flexing and springing back where as the softer edge is bending?
I don't really know of a better way to explain this other than with stress-strain curves. But just putting an image of a stress-strain curve and then explaining it wouldn't do the job I think. So maybe start with the wikipedia article and then we can go from there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-strain_curve

Basically elastic behavior is a straight line so it doesn't change as the degree of deflection increases. Brittle materials fracture at the end of the elastic region or shortly thereafter where ductile materials start to deform.

ajhuff
10-26-2011, 08:23 PM
Half planes and Dislocation Theory. :D:D:D

-AJ

Dave Martell
10-26-2011, 09:13 PM
What a bunch of geeks. :tongue:

WildBoar
10-26-2011, 10:29 PM
What a bunch of geeks. :tongue:That comment really stresses me out and is causing me tension. The strain resulting from this may fracture my well-being, rupture my ego and propagate ill feelings. I initially tried to deflect my feelings about what you said, but in the end it just made me brittle. Luckily, at the moment I am unable to generate the force needed to lift my butt off the chair and beat you with a plastic bat.

Marko Tsourkan
10-26-2011, 10:57 PM
That comment really stresses me out and is causing me tension. The strain resulting from this may fracture my well-being, rupture my ego and propagate ill feelings. I initially tried to deflect my feelings about what you said, but in the end it just made me brittle. Luckily, at the moment I am unable to generate the force needed to lift my butt off the chair and beat you with a plastic bat.

I strain myself not to laugh.

apicius9
10-26-2011, 11:19 PM
That comment really stresses me out and is causing me tension. The strain resulting from this may fracture my well-being, rupture my ego and propagate ill feelings. I initially tried to deflect my feelings about what you said, but in the end it just made me brittle. Luckily, at the moment I am unable to generate the force needed to lift my butt off the chair and beat you with a plastic bat.

I offer counseling for these kinds of problems :)

Stefan

Dave Martell
10-27-2011, 12:07 AM
That comment really stresses me out and is causing me tension. The strain resulting from this may fracture my well-being, rupture my ego and propagate ill feelings. I initially tried to deflect my feelings about what you said, but in the end it just made me brittle. Luckily, at the moment I am unable to generate the force needed to lift my butt off the chair and beat you with a plastic bat.


Don't fracture your carbides over this. :D

Marko Tsourkan
10-27-2011, 12:14 AM
Do carbides clunk when they fracture?

karloevaristo
10-28-2011, 02:10 PM
I guess I'm still a million years away from calling myself a knifenut... tried to read this thread.... ended up understanding 25% of it...

tk59
10-28-2011, 06:46 PM
Don't worry, that means you got half of it because 50% doesn't make sense to anyone, lol. Plus, you actually read it anyway. That makes you a certifiable knut, imo. :D

karloevaristo
10-29-2011, 12:03 AM
Don't worry, that means you got half of it because 50% doesn't make sense to anyone, lol. Plus, you actually read it anyway. That makes you a certifiable knut, imo. :D

wuhooo!!! :bliss: