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Noodle Soup
10-30-2011, 08:42 PM
Any one noticed the $300 worth of Kramer sharpening kit SLT is offering now? I guess that name goes a long way.

JohnnyChance
10-30-2011, 08:49 PM
It is a little overpriced, but I look at it as a good sign. If you can sell water stones and a sink bridge to everyday folks, it's a good sign for the high end cutlery market and it's accessories.

I wonder if these stones are rebadged oem stones, like how the Miyabi stones are Choseras.

Noodle Soup
10-30-2011, 08:59 PM
A little over priced? :) I seriously doubt very many "everyday folks," even one's that cook for a living are going to see this as a good deal.

Rottman
10-30-2011, 09:02 PM
I wonder if these stones are rebadged oem stones, like how the Miyabi stones are Choseras.

The stones are backed with glass :scratchhead::whistling::scratchhead:

Dave Martell
10-30-2011, 09:19 PM
Oh snap - Glasstones.....that's the best thing that GS's are good for - marketing through the glass backing - brilliant! :D

Eamon Burke
10-30-2011, 09:44 PM
Lol! I think high end knife popularity is good but they should not advocate people putting a $400 knife on the stones themselves if they are ill-informed enough to pay that much for mystery stones.

Wagstaff
10-30-2011, 09:57 PM
I don't know why there's any hesitation. It says RIGHT THERE on the site it's a $475 value. So it's clearly a super bargain. (To be read as deadpan as manageable).

JohnnyChance
10-30-2011, 09:58 PM
A little over priced? :) I seriously doubt very many "everyday folks," even one's that cook for a living are going to see this as a good deal.

There are plenty of worse deals at SLT that people gobble up all the time. How much would a 3 stone and sink bridge set cost you online? Add the standard brick and mortar markup, and it isn't that outrageous. They know what they can sell it for. They know making it MORE expensive makes it more desirable at the same time, to a certain type of customer.

Noodle Soup
10-30-2011, 10:03 PM
Maybe those Occupy Wall Street people are right. Some people just must have too much money if this seems like a good deal to them.

jaybett
10-31-2011, 04:52 AM
Assuming that they are Shapton Glass stones. An online vendor has a three set going for $178.00.
A sink bridge for $54.00.
A nagura for $22.95.
A Murray Carter Sharpening Video for $34.95
Total = $289.90

What Sur la Table is charging for the set, doesn't appear to be over priced.

Jay

ecchef
10-31-2011, 06:37 AM
OOOOOOH it's Kramer...It's got to be great!!! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notwo rthy::notworthy::puke:

BULLLLLLSHIIIIIT! :whistling:

welshstar
10-31-2011, 07:00 AM
This happens in every industry, a company like SLT brings things to the mainstream. What harm does it do serious chefs and knife people ? I bet not many serious kitchens use $400 Demeyer fry pans either. Like i say it happens everywhere, I design industrial communication systems for i living and when Im in Best Buy and see the sales guy selling a $120 Monster cable I cringe with the BS they are told, i buy the same cables for $2.50

There will always be a superficial high street market for everything, the thing is and a lot of people wont admit it but a good portion of us started with Shun's and Henckels from SLT or WS.

Be nice guys, more people buying Kramers at SLT means more great Ebay inventory, trust me i know !!!

Alan

Schtoo
10-31-2011, 07:28 AM
Assuming that they are Shapton Glass stones. An online vendor has a three set going for $178.00.
A sink bridge for $54.00.
A nagura for $22.95.
A Murray Carter Sharpening Video for $34.95
Total = $289.90

What Sur la Table is charging for the set, doesn't appear to be over priced.

Jay

They're not Glass Stones. Not real ones anyway. Jay here hinted at it, hence he gets a gold star. ;)

Last time I checked, the only GS that's not white is the #120, and they're showing up as all shades of grey until the #10000, which could be danged near anything. Heck, if they've taken a leaf out of the Norton grit rating scheme, it could be a glorified $200, half thickness, #5000 stone. Wow, what a steal.

I wonder if Shapton has a patent on that glass backed stone idea?

Actually, the first thing I thought of when I saw this was "Psst, wanna buy a bridge?"

Stu.

Eamon Burke
10-31-2011, 09:37 AM
Assuming that they are Shapton Glass stones. An online vendor has a three set going for $178.00.
A sink bridge for $54.00.
A nagura for $22.95.
A Murray Carter Sharpening Video for $34.95
Total = $289.90

What Sur la Table is charging for the set, doesn't appear to be over priced.

Jay

If they were shaptons, they would say so. Don't assume that anything unlabeled its any better than bottom of the barrel.

Eamon Burke
10-31-2011, 09:40 AM
They're not Glass Stones. Not real ones anyway. Jay here hinted at it, hence he gets a gold star. ;)

Last time I checked, the only GS that's not white is the #120, and they're showing up as all shades of grey until the #10000, which could be danged near anything. Heck, if they've taken a leaf out of the Norton grit rating scheme, it could be a glorified $200, half thickness, #5000 stone. Wow, what a steal.

I wonder if Shapton has a patent on that glass backed stone idea?

Actually, the first thing I thought of when I saw this was "Psst, wanna buy a bridge?"

Stu.

You dont patent the idea, you patent the process to make it. perhaps they just bond them differently. Perhaps gorilla glue.

Dave Martell
10-31-2011, 09:55 AM
My first assumption was that they were Glasstones, a mix of the carbon versions & white ones, but then upon closer looking and research with my Google-fu I believe that they're not likely GS's at all. I suspect they're cut in half Naniwa Superstones or possibly Choseras even. I have no idea really though. I still think marketing through the glass backing is brilliant.

Knifefan
10-31-2011, 11:08 AM
Since Henckels already uses rebranded Choseras for their Miyabi line, and since the grit stepping is identical to the Miyabis, it's more likely than not that they are Choseras. Making cut in half Superstones would make less sense, first as they are less expensive, and second since they are softer and dish more quickly. Cut in half Choseras however would make sense.

dmccurtis
10-31-2011, 12:20 PM
My bet's on Superstones. Henckels already sells rebranded 220/1000 and 3000/8000 combos, and the 1000 and 3000 stones are the same colour as these stones. They look to be about the same thickness as well.

JohnnyChance
10-31-2011, 01:50 PM
Maybe I will pick one up with the employee discount and we can see what they are.

mateo
10-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Errr... is it me, or are they using the sink bridge incorrectly here?

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-198418/Kramer-by-Zwilling-Knife-Sharpening-Kit

JohnnyChance
10-31-2011, 03:31 PM
Errr... is it me, or are they using the sink bridge incorrectly here?

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-198418/Kramer-by-Zwilling-Knife-Sharpening-Kit

Haha yeah, I think the feet should drop down into the sink so it can rest on the lip. But I am sure the photographer who set this up has no idea how to use the thing.

jm2hill
10-31-2011, 03:44 PM
Haha yeah, I think the feet should drop down into the sink so it can rest on the lip. But I am sure the photographer who set this up has no idea how to use the thing.

yeah that thing looks like its gonna topple over any second.

it is a beautiful sink bridge tho!

Eamon Burke
11-01-2011, 08:19 PM
Errr... is it me, or are they using the sink bridge incorrectly here?

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-198418/Kramer-by-Zwilling-Knife-Sharpening-Kit

:rofl2:

mc2442
11-01-2011, 10:38 PM
Whatever do you mean. I think he correctly bridged over the sink....job well done. :D

Justin0505
11-02-2011, 12:28 PM
Operator error aside, The sink bridge does look well designed and made. Nice laminated bamboo and i like the built in stone holder.
I guess a chuck of 2x4 and a towel works fine too, but it would probably offend the sensibilities of the average
SLT shopper to have raw building material sitting so close to their granite counter tops and copper clad pans.

Hangman
11-16-2013, 01:32 AM
Hi I'm Mark ... new to the forum and definitely a newbie to Knife talk and knowledge. In the video that Kramer made for the kit he states that they are Chosera stones . Before this video I had never heard of them and before checking out this forum I had no idea what to do to sharpen my knives myself... outside of the AccuSharp my dad used to sharpen his knives. I was hoping to get an idea as to what to buy for giving the knife sharpening a serious bid. I too thought the SLT Zwilling /Kramer version was overpriced but after looking on the web I'm not so sure. Help !

quantumcloud509
11-16-2013, 02:37 AM
Go to Japanese Knife Sharpening Store . com or Japanes Knife Imports . com Look for a Beston, Bester, Rika combo. $150

Nmko
11-16-2013, 09:05 AM
OOOOOOH it's Kramer...It's got to be great!!! :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notwo rthy::notworthy::puke:

BULLLLLLSHIIIIIT! :whistling:


LOL!

My sentiments exactly...

Hangman
11-16-2013, 01:19 PM
Go to Japanese Knife Sharpening Store . com or Japanes Knife Imports . com Look for a Beston, Bester, Rika combo. $150

Thanks I'll do that ...

I'm wondering if any of you have ever seen the Apex Edge Pro sharpening system ? It looks interesting and may provide less "freehand" mistakes... saw it in a Chowhound discussion :
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/826055

I'm comfortable with tools so I'm leaning more to the traditional whetstone but thought I'd ask the question

Hangman
11-16-2013, 01:28 PM
Go to Japanese Knife Sharpening Store . com or Japanes Knife Imports . com Look for a Beston, Bester, Rika combo. $150


Is this the one you're referring to? :

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Dave-Martell-set-sharpening-stones-p/set1dmcore.htm

upon closer inspection I was looking at that Martell set and it appears that in the pic the Rika may come with a block or bridge to set the stone in/on is that accurate?

Paradox
11-16-2013, 04:24 PM
I think you can get the Rika stone with or without the base. IIRC Dave mentioned that he prefers the version with the base so that is what he sells?

Canadian
11-16-2013, 05:02 PM
I think someone could do a lot worse for $300.

Can you get the same or better quality for less? Probably.

Does the average chef/housewife/hobby cook hang out on knife forums? Probably not.

Do the aforementioend types of people share our aesthetic? Doubtful except for some chef's, maybe.

If SLT is popularizing good quality knives (Zwilling Kramer's are good) and proper knife maintenance then all the better. Branding is part of the game. Do I feel bad for people who spend $300 on items that I know they could acquire for less? I do, but I am also aware of the fact that certain people, despite what I would have to say about the matter, would simply not listen and buy it anyways--that's the power of marketing*

*I'm reminded of a time when a family member asked me for a "good knife block set" as a gift. She knew I was "into" kitchen cutlery and that I could sharpen knives really well. Despite my efforts to try and convince her that 1-2 high end functional knives would be better, I could tell that she had her heart set on a block. In the end I got her what she wanted and she was happy.

jaybett
11-17-2013, 04:44 AM
Go to Japanese Knife Sharpening Store . com or Japanes Knife Imports . com Look for a Beston, Bester, Rika combo. $150

Don't forget to add a stone holder, nagura, instructional video, stone flattener, and some type of sink bridge, that will get you close to $300. If the stones are Chosera, then a 400, 1k and 5k, are roughly $300 without any extra equipment. Three hundred dollars is a reasonable amount for a good stone setup. It can be done cheaper. Murray Carter uses King stones, a 600 and 6000, if memory serves. Which are inexpensive stones. It's possible to get by without a stone holder, nagura, use a 2x4 as a sink bridge, and watch youtube for instructions. The extras do make sharpening easier.

The Edge Pro is some what controversial. There are people who are quite happy with them. They get good results and post videos on youtube showing their results. There is more to maintaining a knife, then just getting it sharp. Over time, a knife will need to be thinned. Accidents happen, and a knife will lose a tip or get chipped, and need to be repaired. These actions are easier to do free handing then with a jig. It's also easier to follow the bevel of a knife, by free hand. The jig users will say that they can do all these thing, and so we have a controversy.

Jay

bahamaroot
11-17-2013, 10:47 AM
Kramer says that the stones are custom made for Zwilling by Chosera at the 1 min mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFhMGJYhYpU

Hangman
11-17-2013, 10:56 PM
Thanks Jay I appreciate yours and everyone's insight. The Edge Pro looks good, but I like the flexibility you describe and think I'll take my chances on the stones and learn to do it freehand . I have some old knives my Dad gave me I can learn on .

I don't know what makes one stone better or worse than another so Chosera means nothing to me. Is it a respected name for stones or is it specific to certain stones within the company, as in some are good and some not so good?

Hangman
11-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Kramer says that the stones are custom made for Zwilling by Chosera at the 1 min mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFhMGJYhYpU


and just to add to the confusion the guy in this video says they are Shapton Glass backed ??? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9mhzLFusCk

Dave Martell
11-17-2013, 11:27 PM
I got to handle the Kramer stones this week and I'd swear that they're Shapton Glasstones but I've been wrong before. Now the nagura is Naniwa for sure.

Hangman
11-19-2013, 09:29 AM
I got to handle the Kramer stones this week and I'd swear that they're Shapton Glasstones but I've been wrong before. Now the nagura is Naniwa for sure.

I stopped at SLT on my way home last night just to see and touch some stones. I pulled apart a Kramer kit as well as a couple of others. I was wondering why the Kramer stones were glass backed?

I ended up buying a King K-80 combo stone for $29 so that I could practice on a relatively inexpensive stone with some old knives. I really just wanted to get my feet wet but got my countertops pretty wet too. I broke out an "Old Homestead" ( made in Japan of all places :) ) which was either my dad's or my ex wife's . This knife is stainless , extremely dull, full of nicks all along the edge along with some gouges.... in other words a great practice knife . I think I'm in trouble because I loved it, I loved the way it felt to sharpen I loved seeing this crappy old knife come back to have a sharper edge and I loved seeing all the things you guys talk about on here .. the slurry , the burr, all in all very gratifying. I'm glad I bought this stone for $29 because I can see I have a lot to learn and I'll feel better if I make mistakes on this than on a nicer more costly one.

I do have some questions:

1. The K-80 didn't have any English instructions so I wasn't sure if it needed to soak for an extended time but it seemed to work with a good soaking as I worked though it did seem thirsty. Does anyone know if this needs a prolonged soaking or just Wet N Go ?

2. I assume this knife needs more passes because it is stainless is that true? all it has for markings are " lifetime cutlery- Old Homestaed- made in Japan"

3. How do I post pics on this forum ? is there a t6hread showing how?

Many thanks , Mark

Hangman
11-19-2013, 10:08 AM
This is the same as the knife I used to practice last night. Just thought it would help get an idea of what the steel was like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-Homestead-Stainless-Steel-Slicer-Chefs-Knife-Japan-Lifetime-Cutlery-Wood-/251324274493?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

This is mine on my Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201763731446959&set=a.1112294099505.2017681.1591474019&type=1&theater

daveb
11-19-2013, 10:35 AM
There are several posts on inserting pictures in the "support" forum. None of them work. One part that does is the preview post button. If you click it and don't see your pic - no one else will either. I can usually beat Dropbox into submission.

Hangman
11-19-2013, 11:24 AM
Thanks for posting the Ebay pic....I found a thread saying you need to be a supporting member to upload from a PC.
Just a note this is not my knife just a similar one on Ebay.


There are several posts on inserting pictures in the "support" forum. None of them work. One part that does is the preview post button. If you click it and don't see your pic - no one else will either. I can usually beat Dropbox into submission.