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Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 01:07 AM
I'm looking for individuals who have great knife (and sharpening/stropping) skills who like to record themselves (via digital video camera) cutting up food products and posting these videos on YouTube.

This person must label all videos with my name and talk up my products like they're the best ever. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It's preferable that the candidate(s) be a prolific poster on every kitchen knife (related) forum on the internet and that they post all videos of my knives in use on all of these forums.

I want my knives (and products) to be shown and talked about so that tons of people will buy them. :thumbsup2::thumbsup2:

I'll give this person (or persons) at least a FREE knife with all the trimmings. I think that I can spare 1 gyuto or 1 suji and some maybe some sharpening/honing equipment for each shill.

So who will step up?

Vertigo
11-02-2011, 01:10 AM
HAY... I SEE WHAT YOU DID THAR!!!

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 01:43 AM
As much as I also see what you did there, it also wasn't nearly sarcastic/ridiculous enough. You see, people say these things, and mean exactly that, but it gets couched in language that attempts to create an emotional empathy regarding the factthat they are trying to make a living or create a good product. I personally am oblivious to such appeals, and see the more polite iterations of this sentiment as no different than this--and I see little here to quarrel with ethically. There is a dishonesty in trying to seem unaffiliated, but I am hardly swayed by or trusting of a stranger's endorsement without a track record.

A passaround review is the same, but the fact that you aren't compensated for them somehow alleviates people's moral concerns. It is a valuable service (good feedback/press), and good services are worth paying for. I've got no moral conflicts of interest, I'll take your money and tell you it sucks.

What I'm saying is, I'l do it. I want a 300 suji with maple handle please.:groucho:

tk59
11-02-2011, 02:14 AM
Interesting. Good luck with that.

mr drinky
11-02-2011, 05:57 AM
Aren't you going to give out free supporting member tags too with the gig? Or bump up their post count an extra 500 to give some extra cred?

k.

ecchef
11-02-2011, 09:06 AM
WHORE! :spankarse:

ecchef
11-02-2011, 09:07 AM
You know I'm just breaking your balls, right Dave? :razz:

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 10:55 AM
I thought I'd have some fun with the shill concept, sort of get it out in the open. Hell it's providing me enough fun already that I might even go through with it. Hell, we could even have a contest to name it? I'm thinking "Project Shill", anyone have have any other ideas? :D

I should take this to Facebook & Tweet on it too. :rofl2:

Jim
11-02-2011, 11:14 AM
I thought I'd have some fun with the shill concept, sort of get it out in the open. Hell it's providing me enough fun already that I might even go through with it. Hell, we could even have a contest to name it? I'm thinking "Project Shill", anyone have have any other ideas? :D

I should take this to Facebook & Tweet on it too. :rofl2:

A Shill network!

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 11:35 AM
Good one Jim!

Andrew H
11-02-2011, 12:12 PM
I thought I'd have some fun with the shill concept, sort of get it out in the open. Hell it's providing me enough fun already that I might even go through with it. Hell, we could even have a contest to name it? I'm thinking "Project Shill", anyone have have any other ideas? :D

I should take this to Facebook & Tweet on it too. :rofl2:

Careful now, we don't want another "Mrknife Fanatic." 6 months ago thinking a Calphalon Katana was an amazing knife, and now doing product reviews for a certain website.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 12:27 PM
Careful now, we don't want another "Mrknife Fanatic." 6 months ago thinking a Calphalon Katana was an amazing knife, and now doing product reviews....


Oh man that guy is without a doubt the biggest shill that I've ever seen in the knife community. I guess he fools those people who don't know his history? It's like saying that you're a surgeon or a Navy Seal....who would doubt you if they didn't know you before? All it takes today to be credible (on the internet) is to say that you're credible or to not even say it....just pretend to be it.....buy the t-shirt......and you're it.

Hey maybe we could do an identify a knife shill thread? :D

Andrew H
11-02-2011, 01:54 PM
Oh man that guy is without a doubt the biggest shill that I've ever seen in the knife community. I guess he fools those people who don't know his history? It's like saying that you're a surgeon or a Navy Seal....who would doubt you if they didn't know you before? All it takes today to be credible (on the internet) is to say that you're credible or to not even say it....just pretend to be it.....buy the t-shirt......and you're it.

Hey maybe we could do an identify a knife shill thread? :D

Doesn't hurt he changed YT accounts.

And yes, I like that idea very much.

mr drinky
11-02-2011, 02:18 PM
"Mrknife Fanatic."

I must be incredibly non-observant because I don't know who you are talking about.

k.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 02:25 PM
I must be incredibly non-observant because I don't know who you are talking about.

k.

He goes by "soulfly711" - name is Shaun something

Twistington
11-02-2011, 02:28 PM
I must be incredibly non-observant because I don't know who you are talking about.

k.

Get drunk before you click. (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/**************_2183_30736861)

edit: replace the stars with a online store that sells knives.

ajhuff
11-02-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm in, though not at expert level. Let me know how to start.

-AJ

Salty dog
11-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Definition: per Wikipedia

A shill, plant or stooge is a person who helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization. Shill typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that he or she is an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) that he or she is secretly working for. The person or group that hires the shill is using crowd psychology, to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by confidence artists. Plant and stooge more commonly refer to any person who is secretly in league with another person or organization while pretending to be neutral or actually a part of the organization he or she is planted in, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization (see double agent).

Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the frequently fraudulent and damaging character of the shill's actions. However, if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz", the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience", is a type of legal shill.


A couple things:

*You would have to be "employed" or otherwise compensated.
*Not visibly associated with the principle party. Participating in newsletters and forum sites would rule that out.
*Does harm comes to those being "shilled"?
*As the definition states "shilling" is illegal in some jurisdictions. *Accussing someone of being a shill could be considered a case of libel. Even if used in the pejorative sense.

Just saying.

Andrew H
11-02-2011, 03:39 PM
I'm a fan of yours Salty but,
1. Testing knives / compounds could be considered compensation, at least by knife knuts.
2. Visible is interesting, I don't believe he states that he is receiving the products purely to review them, but I know it could be argued that it isn't visible enough. Also, I'm guessing some, if not most, of his views are from people who don't even know KF exists.
3. One could easily make the case (not unlike the case you made) that Internet videos posted by someone who seems knowledgeable could hurt sales of someone else, even unintentionally.
4. Who accused anyone of being a shill?:D
5. Wikipedia.

ajhuff
11-02-2011, 03:40 PM
I guess I don't get it. Is this a joke?

-AJ

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 03:42 PM
I was just about to do that, lol.

Shills gotta get paid, and pretend to be regular joes. Even still, people get around it. Guerilla Marketing and all.

The main thing is that some marketing is distasteful to some, and not others--things get testy in zero-sum conditions like business. Personally, I am not bothered by it. Whether employed by the maker or not, an edorsement does not mean anything to me unless I have a record of good endorsements to relate it to. I will trust Alton Brown's recipes, Harold McGee's fact-checking, Dave's sharpening advice/recommendations, and the Coen Brothers' films.

Even street teams get free merch.

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 03:48 PM
I'm a fan of yours Salty but,
1. Testing knives / compounds could be considered compensation, at least by knife knuts.
2. Visible is interesting, I don't believe he states that he is receiving the products purely to review them, but I know it could be argued that it isn't visible enough. Also, I'm guessing some, if not most, of his views are from people who don't even know KF exists.
3. One could easily make the case (not unlike the case you made) that Internet videos posted by someone who seems knowledgeable could hurt sales of someone else, even unintentionally.
4. Who accused anyone of being a shill?:D
5. Wikipedia.

If we are still talking about Shaun, he is not remotely close to appearing unaffiliated. He is the editor of the CKTG newsletter.

Also, the fact that sales of one thing prevent sales of another thing is just an unavoidable fact of living in a material universe. There are plenty of customers out there that are oblivious to the fact that at some point in the future, they will be giving various parties their money. The majority of your income, unless you are close to retirement, is going to come from people who have no idea that you exist yet.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 03:48 PM
I guess I don't get it. Is this a joke?

-AJ


My thread/topic? If so then it's kind of both a joke and serious. I guess that I find it funny that this is even something that could be discussed but then I'm also a guy trying to make a buck so maybe I could use a shill or two. I'm thinking it's best for my sensibilities to put it out in the open though.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 03:57 PM
On the subject of shilling I realize that the term is being used by myself loosely (well kind of) but I still think some people who do this fanboy stuff are being compensated even if not monetarily, they're getting themselves attention and/or acceptance from a community. So say a vendor doesn't officially ask for an endorsement (or pay for it) but they accept it (and use it on their advertising and/or sales sites) and by doing so they themselves return the favor of promoting the status of the individual through association. That is that the vendor's own credibility is (somewhat) endorsing of the individual "reviewer's" credibility by making the media accessible through their promotional/sales sites. This relationship is symbiotic, it works for both players even if only one (the vendor) actually gets monetarily compensated for it.

ajhuff
11-02-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm not sure what's funny. I would like to try to do a review as an entry level type person. I have a video camera and basic skills with water stones. How do we start?

-AJ

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 04:04 PM
On the subject of shilling I realize that the term is being used by myself loosely (well kind of) but I still think some people who do this fanboy stuff are being compensated even if not monetarily, they're getting themselves attention and/or acceptance from a community. So say a vendor doesn't officially ask for an endorsement (or pay for it) but they accept it (and use it on their advertising and/or sales sites) and by doing so they themselves return the favor of promoting the status of the individual through association. That is that the vendor's own credibility is (somewhat) endorsing of the individual "reviewer's" credibility by making the media accessible through their promotional/sales sites. This relationship is symbiotic, it works for both players even if only one (the vendor) actually gets monetarily compensated for it.

That is true, but no harm will come of it unless people allow themselves to be brainless buyers. You really can't expect a business to not take money from people for that. I mean, I work at a place that sells food, and people make assumptions about the food, and unless they ask, they are not going to be corrected--for better or worse. Some people think our food is all Freezer-to-Oven(it isn't), and other people think that there are "healthy options"(there aren't).

The only real problem would be that if someone who already has credibility starts endorsing a product, and never acting like they are on the take. Great example--Glenn Beck would terrify people about the market, and then tout buying Gold as the only solution. Then his commercial breaks were for gold dealers...which he is financially attached to.

The hekler
11-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Just ask Taco Bell to replace the Shun they are using in commercials with one of your knives. Instant visibility!

Andrew H
11-02-2011, 04:18 PM
If we are still talking about Shaun, he is not remotely close to appearing unaffiliated. He is the editor of the CKTG newsletter.

Also, the fact that sales of one thing prevent sales of another thing is just an unavoidable fact of living in a material universe. There are plenty of customers out there that are oblivious to the fact that at some point in the future, they will be giving various parties their money. The majority of your income, unless you are close to retirement, is going to come from people who have no idea that you exist yet.

He might be the editor but I don't see any note of affiliation on his YouTube page, except him being subscribed to CKTG along with 16 others. If you found him through the forums or newsletter you would know he was affiliated, but not if you found him through YT.
To the second part of your post, yes it is unavoidable. That does not mean that it is commendable.

Just watch a couple of his videos, he never says ANYTHING negative. For me, that's what makes someone a shill.

WillC
11-02-2011, 04:46 PM
I don't think think you need a Shill Dave, quality speaks for it'self. Maybe a few celebrity tv Chefs on board wouldn't go a miss though.:D

mr drinky
11-02-2011, 05:45 PM
Well, I am generally against "shilling," or the lighter versions that exist which are also suspect. Plugging products is generally looked down upon in the blogging world and forums. Chowhound, eGullet and many others don't even let you link to your own blog posts, let alone give a review of something a vendor has provided you. Product plugging has long been a problem in the blogosphere, and respectable bloggers always disclose that they have received a product to have or test -- even if they send it back and don't keep it.

My main problem is that when vendors encourage people to review their products, it crowds out other more valuable info, pictures, product reviews. Do we really need another Addict or Remedy review, or a video of those knives cutting and onion or tomato? It might be good for Mark's site (and that's fine), but for the forums it has a lot less value. And for every Addict review, I am sure that same person has a half dozen other knives we would rather see in action.

And then you have the latest "Free Sword" giveaway on KF. All you have to do is buy a KF sword for $20 and Mark will give you a $20 discount in return IF you put his link in your signature line. To me that is quite dodgy. There is indirect compensation, newbies will see a sword member promoting one vendor, and worst of all, it is converting members into low-level passive MARKeters in a very non-transparent way.

Vendorization of forums is tricky, but when regular members get involved it is often leads to nothing good. Full disclosure in any review, picture, etc. is a must IMO.

k.

TDj
11-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Aren't you going to give out free supporting member tags too with the gig? Or bump up their post count an extra 500 to give some extra cred?
This is my favorite quote/point.

obtuse
11-02-2011, 07:30 PM
I think a pass around would work better in your interest.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 07:52 PM
There's some good conversation going on in this thread, a hell of a lot more than I thought it would draw. Actually I didn't expect anyone to say anything here at all really. :D

echerub
11-02-2011, 08:09 PM
Sheesh! When I read this thread earlier today on my phone, I was thinking ***? because I had actually never heard the term "shill" before. Okay, thread makes sense now :)

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 08:16 PM
What the knife community needs is more focus on getting good knives in the hands of people who don't have any. More toys for us loonies won't do anyone a whole lot of good, though it might keep us entertained.

ajhuff
11-02-2011, 08:24 PM
I'm looking for individuals who have great knife (and sharpening/stropping) skills who like to record themselves (via digital video camera) cutting up food products and posting these videos on YouTube.

This person must label all videos with my name and talk up my products like they're the best ever. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It's preferable that the candidate(s) be a prolific poster on every kitchen knife (related) forum on the internet and that they post all videos of my knives in use on all of these forums.

I want my knives (and products) to be shown and talked about so that tons of people will buy them. :thumbsup2::thumbsup2:

I'll give this person (or persons) at least a FREE knife with all the trimmings. I think that I can spare 1 gyuto or 1 suji and some maybe some sharpening/honing equipment for each shill.

So who will step up?

Now that I'm on my computer and not replying from my phone I have the opportunity to read the whole thread. Way to set me up to be a chump. I thought this was a serious offer for help. Now I see it is a joke, I guess an inside joke. Real classy.

Eamon Burke
11-02-2011, 09:39 PM
Now that I'm on my computer and not replying from my phone I have the opportunity to read the whole thread. Way to set me up to be a chump. I thought this was a serious offer for help. Now I see it is a joke, I guess an inside joke. Real classy.

I have been on my phone all day. Rest assured this was no plot to ridicule you.

Salty dog
11-02-2011, 09:53 PM
Bottom line. It's a good marketing tool and I think you (Dave) should use it. I hate to say it. I'm Mr. anti marketing but you have to compete, as sour a taste as that might leave.

I might call it something else though.

mr drinky
11-02-2011, 10:03 PM
There are ways to compete and use this type of marketing tool without polluting the forums though. But that is just my humble opinion.

k.

mainaman
11-02-2011, 10:33 PM
....buy the t-shirt......and you're it.

Hey maybe we could do an identify a knife shill thread? :DI always wondered why there is not a knife pic on those t-shirts
I think this will be a good representative of a suitable pic, from the man's own work

http://i40.tinypic.com/j61iz6.jpg

I was always irritated by those vids, a lot of posturing and little essence.

Here another one that really baffles me, on a few occasions in the vid I thought he is going to decapitate himself...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWd17wm7beI

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 10:49 PM
Now that I'm on my computer and not replying from my phone I have the opportunity to read the whole thread. Way to set me up to be a chump. I thought this was a serious offer for help. Now I see it is a joke, I guess an inside joke. Real classy.


AJ, this was meant for everyone. There's a lot of product pushing going on in our little knife world these days that's sort of subliminal and not so transparent. I thought I'd talk about it and maybe even recruit someone to do some of it for me but in a more forthright manner than what we've come to know. I'm going about it a little different because I'm doing it out in the open, versus under the table, so it comes off as weird and confusing I guess.

Anyway, the offer still stands for the right person. I'd like someone who is respected in the community, a prolific multi-knife forum poster, with exceptional knife skills, someone who likes to be in front of the camera, who wants to pimp my knives and maybe even some other products all over the interwebs specifically the other knife forums, YouTube, blogs, Twitter, and Facebook pages of everyone known to us. I'm just looking for the same type of product shill that I see being used by other people.

No inside joke here at all.

Dave Martell
11-02-2011, 10:54 PM
I always wondered why there is not a knife pic on those t-shirts
I think this will be a good representative of a suitable pic, from the man's own work

http://i40.tinypic.com/j61iz6.jpg

I was always irritated by those vids, a lot of posturing and little essence.


Yikes! I'm sure that's not a finished knife though....certainly it would be said to be a work in progress. However, did you get to see the Doi kiritsuke that he did for CKTG? Now that was classic....that should be on the t-shirt. :happy2:

Oh that shaving video.....special stuff. :tooth:

bprescot
11-02-2011, 11:37 PM
I don't know about the concept of a honest to goodness shill being a good idea. Very early on I was part of the small group that did give Mark feedback on some of the knives he was bringing into the store. Think I reviewed a Hammered Damascus Takayuki, a Chroma Haiku, and some other entry price Shun-wannabe-competitor. He'd ask if I wanted to review a specific knife and if I said yes, I paid whole-sale price plus shipping and wrote up what I thought, with no expectation of a good review, just a review. Half of what I wrote was essentially "Okay knife, but not for the price. Find it for 50% off and maybe." I'll concede that at the time I probably shouldn't have been writing sh!t as I didn't have has as much experience with or knowledge about knives as I do now, but I'm pretty sure I'd still stand by what I wrote I think. And I'd like to believe I wasn't overtly swayed by the discount.

Dave if you're talking about a situation like the above, then I think that's fine. You're essentially trading for the person's time, but leaving full editorial control with them. If they're swayed by the value of the trade to have a more favorable opinion... it's something to consider, but I don't think it's bad practice or bad faith on your part. Paying someone to essentially be your mouthpiece with mandates of good reviews, types of review, etc... well essentially you're asking for someone to be your Sham-wow guy. Even if they are a respected member of multiple communities, given that you're doing this out in the open, I'm not sure how long that respect would last... I mean, Sham-wow...

I've already got one of your blades. I'd be more than happy to do a detailed write-up and provide it to you, and I'm sure others would be happy to do videos. (I'd do vids, but lets be honest. I can't even seem to figure out how the heck to take pictures properly. How do you think I'd fare with videos?!) But I'd prefer to retain editorial control, as would most of your customers, I'd think. If you're confident in your products, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about. Only reason I could think of that you or anyone would pay for a shill is if you weren't confident in the products you sold.

Just my $.02

-Ben

Salty dog
11-03-2011, 12:03 AM
@Dave: All Mark does is ask so and so to check out a knife. Some people like to do videos and photos. Some people write their reviews. Visual will trump the written word. (for the masses anyway)

Mario did the same. But I told him I wanted to do a video. He didn't expect it.

Salty dog
11-03-2011, 12:13 AM
You may or may not have noticed I'ved stayed away from the "********" line. Also I bought every knife I received from you know where.

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 12:16 AM
I don't know about the concept of a honest to goodness shill being a good idea. Very early on I was part of the small group that did give Mark feedback on some of the knives he was bringing into the store. Think I reviewed a Hammered Damascus Takayuki, a Chroma Haiku, and some other entry price Shun-wannabe-competitor. He'd ask if I wanted to review a specific knife and if I said yes, I paid whole-sale price plus shipping and wrote up what I thought, with no expectation of a good review, just a review. Half of what I wrote was essentially "Okay knife, but not for the price. Find it for 50% off and maybe." I'll concede that at the time I probably shouldn't have been writing sh!t as I didn't have has as much experience with or knowledge about knives as I do now, but I'm pretty sure I'd still stand by what I wrote I think. And I'd like to believe I wasn't overtly swayed by the discount.

Dave if you're talking about a situation like the above, then I think that's fine. You're essentially trading for the person's time, but leaving full editorial control with them. If they're swayed by the value of the trade to have a more favorable opinion... it's something to consider, but I don't think it's bad practice or bad faith on your part. Paying someone to essentially be your mouthpiece with mandates of good reviews, types of review, etc... well essentially you're asking for someone to be your Sham-wow guy. Even if they are a respected member of multiple communities, given that you're doing this out in the open, I'm not sure how long that respect would last... I mean, Sham-wow...

I've already got one of your blades. I'd be more than happy to do a detailed write-up and provide it to you, and I'm sure others would be happy to do videos. (I'd do vids, but lets be honest. I can't even seem to figure out how the heck to take pictures properly. How do you think I'd fare with videos?!) But I'd prefer to retain editorial control, as would most of your customers, I'd think. If you're confident in your products, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about. Only reason I could think of that you or anyone would pay for a shill is if you weren't confident in the products you sold.

Just my $.02

-Ben


Sham Wow! :rofl2:

Ben, thanks for the offer to do a review but that's not necessary although appreciated.

On the subject of reviews (in general) I'm happy with any feedback I can get on any level be it private praise or public criticism - I truly mean this. I thank all of you who have helped me over the years in this regard.

Vertigo
11-03-2011, 12:18 AM
Hmm. Long thread, lots to think about. I liked it a lot more when people were just making fun of SoulFly3174 or whatever that stooge's name is. What a clown. :jumpy:

Salty dog
11-03-2011, 12:27 AM
That's where it gets dicey. It's hard for the pot to call the kettle black.

tk59
11-03-2011, 12:30 AM
Hmm. Long thread, lots to think about. I liked it a lot more when people were just making fun of SoulFly3174 or whatever that stooge's name is. What a clown. :jumpy:
That dude is probably the biggest reason I don't go to KF much anymore. The only clear feeling I have about the shill idea is disgust. Why don't you do a passaround requiring video and pictures be posted in specific places?

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 12:32 AM
@Dave: All Mark does is ask so and so to check out a knife. Some people like to do videos and photos. Some people write their reviews. Visual will trump the written word. (for the masses anyway)

I'm cool with people doing most any knife videos, although my personal preference is the educational genre, but whatever they may be I hope that people will always post their vids. I'm not in love at all with the product sales videos though, these I can do without. But yeah it's great that some of you guys like doing videos, we all get to share your experiences and enthusiasm and how great is it to see someone using a new knife for the first time? I know I like checking them out.

I won't comment on Mark but I'll make a general statement and say that maybe asking a person who is known to make favorable videos or reviews to check out a knife isn't so different than just coming out and asking them to hook them up because it's pretty much known that they'll do that anyway.





Mario did the same. But I told him I wanted to do a video. He didn't expect it.

Hey you guys are friends and that's what friends do, I'd like to think that I'd do the same in your situation.

Aphex
11-03-2011, 12:36 AM
Hmm. Long thread, lots to think about. I liked it a lot more when people were just making fun of SoulFly3174 or whatever that stooge's name is. What a clown. :jumpy:


You might want to check out the "new members" section, your BFF has just turned up.

bprescot
11-03-2011, 12:41 AM
Ben, thanks for the offer to do a review but that's not necessary although appreciated.


Well I'll be doing one (the written kind. No vids, sorry.) I'm just waiting for your original edge to give out so I can put a new one on. Still waiting by the way. Stupid thing responds too well to stropping by half and just refuses to quit! Of course, my mother in law IS coming this weekend. If we really wanted to stress test your edge, I'd have HER use your knife :scared4:

Vertigo
11-03-2011, 12:47 AM
You might want to check out the "new members" section, your BFF has just turned up.

Oh SNAP!

http://www.souppilgrim.com/img/smilies/beavisnbutthead.gif

Someone keep him out of the YouTube "Knucklehead of the Day" thread, or things are about to get really awkward.

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 12:49 AM
Of course, my mother in law IS coming this weekend. If we really wanted to stress test your edge, I'd have HER use your knife :scared4:


You like rust? That's what I get on my knives when the in laws are here. I'm thankful for that though - could be worse.

sudsy9977
11-03-2011, 12:50 AM
Wow what a coincidence.....Ryan

mr drinky
11-03-2011, 01:04 AM
I'm sure it is no coincidence, and frankly, I will be quite impressed if he steps up and starts contributing. That takes balls.

k.

sudsy9977
11-03-2011, 01:10 AM
Yeah i was joking on that one......as far as contributing......well he's welcome to contribute if he wants....i doubt it though....Ryan

The hekler
11-03-2011, 01:11 AM
AJ, this was meant for everyone. There's a lot of product pushing going on in our little knife world these days that's sort of subliminal and not so transparent. I thought I'd talk about it and maybe even recruit someone to do some of it for me but in a more forthright manner than what we've come to know. I'm going about it a little different because I'm doing it out in the open, versus under the table, so it comes off as weird and confusing I guess.

Anyway, the offer still stands for the right person. I'd like someone who is respected in the community, a prolific multi-knife forum poster, with exceptional knife skills, someone who likes to be in front of the camera, who wants to pimp my knives and maybe even some other products all over the interwebs specifically the other knife forums, YouTube, blogs, Twitter, and Facebook pages of everyone known to us. I'm just looking for the same type of product shill that I see being used by other people.

No inside joke here at all.

I think AJ's confusion came about because in the same post you are asking for a shill yet mocking the use of a shill. To be honest I find it confusing too. I understand wanting to get your name out there to a wider audience but I think you are going about it the wrong way. I do commend you for being honest about the way you are going about it but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can only imagine how difficult it is to grow your business and can't think of any other way but to basically hire a spokesman to "review" your knives? Seems like the snake-oil salesman with the stooge planted in the crowd that swears it will cure any ailment.

mr drinky
11-03-2011, 01:21 AM
Yeah i was joking on that one......as far as contributing......well he's welcome to contribute if he wants....i doubt it though....Ryan

Sorry. Missed that one. The battery went out on my sarcasm module leaving me completely unprepared for real life.

k.

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 01:32 AM
I think AJ's confusion came about because in the same post you are asking for a shill yet mocking the use of a shill. To be honest I find it confusing too. I understand wanting to get your name out there to a wider audience but I think you are going about it the wrong way. I do commend you for being honest about the way you are going about it but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can only imagine how difficult it is to grow your business and can't think of any other way but to basically hire a spokesman to "review" your knives? Seems like the snake-oil salesman with the stooge planted in the crowd that swears it will cure any ailment.


I'm nearly 100% certain that I'll never have someone doing this type of stuff for me (and I knew that before posting - hence the mocking) but it sure would be nice. I can certainly see the confusion with this - I'm confused myself.

ThEoRy
11-03-2011, 01:57 AM
Ok, I make videos. I also get to test knives from Mark sometimes as well as other knife makers. A couple of them have been his own brand knives, most were not. In the process I've filmed said knives. I've always been honest with you guys AND with Mark about my feelings towards ANY knife. I won't blindly sell something or sign my name on something I don't believe in. If there is a flaw in a product you will hear about it, no matter how small. I'm no pitchman, I'm a demonstrator and a critic.

Now it's no secret that some of my videos are embedded on Mark's site. Most of them are from way before Mark had a line of knives. He asked if it was cool to use the vids. for demo purposes so people can see the knives being used. I thought it was a good idea so you can get a better idea about a knife before spending the cash on it or not. It helps buyers make better, more informed decisions. Mark's site gets a lot of traffic so the vids get some pretty good hits. That's a plus for me, more exposure. I don't see any harm in that.

Originally, I started the videos for the club I work, to help demonstrate the skills and techniques it takes to prepare their meals. But then it became something more. I wanted you guys to accept me. I wanted to be a part of this close knit group of friends who share a common understanding. I wanted to have something that I could contribute to the group. I had to show you all that I could be one of the cool kids and be a part of this. It was my way of giving back to the community that has given me so much. The videos are bigger than me now and they serve a purpose be it on Marks site, KF or right here on KKF. They help educate and entertain and I enjoy making them. I hope you all enjoy watching them.

With that being said. Am I a shill? Am I shill worthy? No. Would I like to try your knives Dave and film some kick ass cutlery action? You betcha! I'm a knifenut that's why I'm here! If they are as good as I think they are I'd love to see them get some exposure.

kalaeb
11-03-2011, 03:35 AM
@ Theory

Your videos have kick A music. Shill or no shill, keep em comming. :D

El Pescador
11-03-2011, 04:18 AM
@ Theory

Your videos have kick A music. Shill or no shill, keep em comming. :D

+1

bprescot
11-03-2011, 08:43 AM
@ Theory

Your videos have kick A music. Shill or no shill, keep em comming. :D

+ a bajillion. Bruce Hornsby and Ricky Skaggs' "Superfreak" is now on regular rotation in my play queue.

echerub
11-03-2011, 01:02 PM
If someone is doing an honest to goodness review, citing the good and bad, that's always fantastic. A shill who is only going to cite the good or deliberately hype is, I feel, very much below the standard of honesty and excellence that I think this community - its users and makers - has set for itself.

Encouraging reviews and more videos is one thing. Comping someone to say good things is quite another.

Rachael
11-03-2011, 01:56 PM
Dave,
How are you honey!
You know I am your gal for this! Just let me know and I will throw my knives in the trash.

Hugs,
Rach

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 02:05 PM
Dave,
How are you honey!
You know I am your gal for this! Just let me know and I will throw my knives in the trash.

Hugs,
Rach

Now there's a knife pusher that I could cozy up to with a video camera. :film:

Dave Martell
11-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Ok, I make videos. I also get to test knives from Mark sometimes as well as other knife makers. A couple of them have been his own brand knives, most were not. In the process I've filmed said knives. I've always been honest with you guys AND with Mark about my feelings towards ANY knife. I won't blindly sell something or sign my name on something I don't believe in. If there is a flaw in a product you will hear about it, no matter how small. I'm no pitchman, I'm a demonstrator and a critic.

Now it's no secret that some of my videos are embedded on Mark's site. Most of them are from way before Mark had a line of knives. He asked if it was cool to use the vids. for demo purposes so people can see the knives being used. I thought it was a good idea so you can get a better idea about a knife before spending the cash on it or not. It helps buyers make better, more informed decisions. Mark's site gets a lot of traffic so the vids get some pretty good hits. That's a plus for me, more exposure. I don't see any harm in that.

Originally, I started the videos for the club I work, to help demonstrate the skills and techniques it takes to prepare their meals. But then it became something more. I wanted you guys to accept me. I wanted to be a part of this close knit group of friends who share a common understanding. I wanted to have something that I could contribute to the group. I had to show you all that I could be one of the cool kids and be a part of this. It was my way of giving back to the community that has given me so much. The videos are bigger than me now and they serve a purpose be it on Marks site, KF or right here on KKF. They help educate and entertain and I enjoy making them. I hope you all enjoy watching them.

With that being said. Am I a shill? Am I shill worthy? No. Would I like to try your knives Dave and film some kick ass cutlery action? You betcha! I'm a knifenut that's why I'm here! If they are as good as I think they are I'd love to see them get some exposure.


Hi Rick,
I hope that you don't think that I'm talking about your videos here, because I'm not. Actually I'm not being specific besides the references I've already made towards certain individuals. I do think, however, that your vids add to the overall climate just because they'll naturally be grouped in together (like it or not) in people's minds. Maybe you could do more disclosure to avoid this? I don't know the answer.

I have to tell you that your post is one of the most honest straight up posts I've read on any subject in a long time and I've got to say that it's refreshing to have read it. :thumbsup:

Dave

stevenStefano
11-03-2011, 03:15 PM
To start off with, one issue I have with some of these knife videos is that basically they seem sort of churned out and don't really show anything informative. Even to have someone talk about a knife and why they like it and that would be nice, rather than seeing someone cut an onion and a hanger steak a load of times. Some videos like Salty's and Theory's are great, something a little different and show technique as well as explaining the qualities of the knives

Another issue I have is pretty blatant advertising videos being posted in general forums rather than vendor forums, so they take up space where someone could actually post a useful topic but I guess that's another issue

Dave I think even if you made one video and put a bit of thought into it, it would be a great idea. This is where you can sort of set an example and stand out. Honestly I'd find it very interesting how you would make a video if it were to happen since I'm sure you've seen many more than most of us

ThEoRy
11-03-2011, 11:30 PM
Hi Rick,
I hope that you don't think that I'm talking about your videos here, because I'm not. Actually I'm not being specific besides the references I've already made towards certain individuals. I do think, however, that your vids add to the overall climate just because they'll naturally be grouped in together (like it or not) in people's minds. Maybe you could do more disclosure to avoid this? I don't know the answer.

I have to tell you that your post is one of the most honest straight up posts I've read on any subject in a long time and I've got to say that it's refreshing to have read it. :thumbsup:

Dave

Nope, no way not at all Dave. I knew immediately you were most likely speaking about, Ken, Shaun etc. You and I have touched on these subjects before in PM so I knew right away that it wasn't about me.

I responded to this thread because my boss who lurks here asked me if this was about me, so I just decided to clear up any confusion anyone else might have about this. DAVE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT ME. lol

Though I can see where the lines may look blurry and I feel extremely sensitive about this difficult subject. I feel if I didn't say anything I may appear one sided. So I said something. Really there is no black and white and I don't want to alienate anyone. I've felt like this whole great divide was like a messy divorce where I'm left in the middle deciding between mommy and daddy.

Both you Dave and Mark have provided me with tools, knowledge and service. I'd be a fool to start burning bridges with anyone in this community. Everyone here has been super helpful to me about everything in this crazy J-knife world. So if it's fine with everyone here I'd like to remain impartial in the middle and do business with both parties if I may. Sorry if I am offending anyone by doing so. Thanks for listening and I hope you guys understand how I feel.

Rick

mr drinky
11-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Bottom line. It's a good marketing tool and I think you (Dave) should use it. I hate to say it. I'm Mr. anti marketing but you have to compete, as sour a taste as that might leave.

I might call it something else though.

I must admit that I didn't re-read the context from this cut brooklyn thread (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1637-Cut-Brooklyn-Opinions&p=23587&viewfull=1#post23587), but I laughed when I saw Scott's quote and thought about this discussion.


Any professional marketeers out there? Kill yourself.

k.

Bryan G.
11-06-2011, 08:39 AM
Does anyone think Shaun doesn't actually like Mark's knives? Does anyone think he is actually lying? Do they not actually perform up to a quality standard? To be honest if he is not lying then that's really all that matters. If the knives he is pushing are in fact an inferior product and he knows this and does not actually like them only doing it for compensation, well then I put out there that it is not for the greater good, and promise anything not for the greater good will come to and end and any person involved, no matter how much they seem to be benefiting NOW ... in the end will receive just reward.

I would be glad to do the same for Dave as I know the quality behind his INTENTIONS and thus products. And would not see any problems with Dave compensating the parties as if you think you can get anything in life without first giving before you receive and have lasting progress, you are sorely mistaken. I think Dave gives more than many people in the knife community, be it products or knowledge or whatever. And like this post is always straight forward with people and tells them honest truth, which I find and honorable and just quality.

Kind Regards

Bryan

RRLOVER
11-06-2011, 09:19 AM
I just read this thread for the first time and it had me thinking ***. I am at a loss for words........(not really!)

sally benes
11-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I have enjoyed this thread and all opinions. Everyone is more experienced than I am so it is difficult to add my opinion. I am still searching for a chefs knife. I appreciate everyone's opinion as to what knife I need to buy. That being said, the next step is to go and research the reviews for the recommended knife. My problem is every review is glowing! Every knife has a five star review!

I don't know the reason or impetus why Dave Martell started the thread, but, for me, it speaks to the lack of dispassionate analysis. That being said, there are little glimpses of transparency. My search continues...

echerub
11-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I think some of the best information comes not from reviews of individual knives but in discussions where multiple knives are brought up. Otherwise very often reviews need to be read/viewed in terms of "the knife is like this, does it suit me?" That's a difficulty when one is still learning about needs and preferences.