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Peco
11-02-2011, 02:16 PM
Pros and cons?

bieniek
11-02-2011, 02:28 PM
What if someone at factory put wrong labels and instead of blue 2 knife you got white? Would you notice if the knife was sharp and cut like you wanted?

Peco
11-02-2011, 02:30 PM
What if someone at factory put wrong labels and instead of blue 2 knife you got white? Would you notice if the knife was sharp and cut like you wanted?

Well now I really feel educated - thanks a lot for a fine fine answer ;)

Pensacola Tiger
11-02-2011, 02:33 PM
Pros and cons?

The properties of each are really so close that it's hard to tell in real world use. I have two Carter gyutos, one in white, one in blue, and the only way I can tell between them is the 'S' or 'W' stamped on the blade.

Blue is more expensive, and has a reputation for better edge retention, while white is reportedly easier to get a good edge on.

Peco
11-02-2011, 02:36 PM
The properties of each are really so close that it's hard to tell in real world use. I have two Carter gyutos, one in white, one in blue, and the only way I can tell between them is the 'S' or 'W' stamped on the blade.

Blue is more expensive, and has a reputation for better edge retention, while white is reportedly easier to get a good edge on.

Thanks :D ... Is one of them more reactive than the other - which is easiest to maintain - if any?

JBroida
11-02-2011, 02:38 PM
technically blue should be less reactive than white, but the core steel is rarely the problem... cladding is usually the most reactive

oivind_dahle
11-02-2011, 02:39 PM
Im not sure you ever will feel the difference ;)

Ao-Ko II: Takes very fine edge, and holds it long time. Easy to sharpen. Less wear resistant than Ao-Ko I, but more tough.
Shiro-Ko II or Shiro-ni-ko (Shirogami): Very good edge holding and takes a crazy sharp edge. I felt Haralds Shiro-Ko 3, and it was insane. Easy to sharpen.

Many pro-users prefer to own Shiro-Ko II blades because of its good characteristic " Ease of resharpening" (easier to make sharp edge in the sharpening process), however some claim to have Ao-Ko II which will definitely outperform Shirogami

Cons: You will destroy your blade if you don't baby it. And thats the reason why I love sanmai, with carbon hagane and stainless jigane.

Peco
11-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Great answer, thanks .

Jon, thanks.

Justin0505
11-02-2011, 04:51 PM
I have
- white #1 (carter)
- white #2 (tojiro)
-white "spicy' (shige)
- blue "super" (carter)
- blue #2 (mizuno)

In addition to the above comments i can add that blue #2/super is also maybe a hair tougher/ more chip resistant (although that could also be the temper). Also, it seems that although blue is even less reactive, it takes a darker colored patina when it does react.

JBroida
11-02-2011, 04:53 PM
shigefusa is not white steel... its a Swedish carbon steel, but i like the white "Spicy" description ;)

The truth of steels like this is that you will see more of a difference between different makers heat treatments than most people will feel between different steels. Find a maker that does a steel well is the best advise i can give. There are differences though and there are people out there who can feel them. Will it matter for most people? Not so much.

Lefty
11-02-2011, 06:10 PM
Can't we toss O1 and W2 into the mix?
By the way, I've used white 1 and 2 rather extensively, along with whatever it is Murray puts into his KU knives, and the edge holding actually does seem to be better on the "whatever" carbon steel. I'm punishing the crap out of my new suji (bamboo boards...yikes!..hey, I'm living out of town right now) and the edge is still very useable, albeit, pretty beaten.
White 1 and 2 feel so similar to me, I couldn't distinguish a winner if I had to.

Justin0505
11-02-2011, 06:29 PM
shigefusa is not white steel... its a Swedish carbon steel, but i like the white "Spicy" description ;)

Im aware that its not technically white steel, but i have been unable to find mention of its exact formulation beyond that its like a white steel with a little "somethin' special" thrown in. It also feels to me like a very hard,perhaps finer grained white#2.

I guess i was interpreting the classification of "white" pretty liberally.

JBroida
11-02-2011, 08:14 PM
yeah... its not white steel at all... white steel is from hitachi steel company... what shigefusa uses is a special steel that Iwasaki-san (actually his father if i recall correctly) picked out because it was most similar to good quality tamahagane... its from Sweden

Justin0505
11-03-2011, 02:27 AM
yeah... its not white steel at all... white steel is from hitachi steel company... what shigefusa uses is a special steel that Iwasaki-san (actually his father if i recall correctly) picked out because it was most similar to good quality tamahagane... its from Sweden

Yeah I knew that it was Swedish, and I'd always heard that although it is a different producer / not branded the same, it has metallurgical similarities to a white in that it was basically very pure carbon steel and has fine grain and high hardness potential because of whatever the "mystery spices" are. I'd never heard the story about it being hand picked with the intent to mirror tamahagane.... that's super cool! I've always been fascinated by tamahagane and that story just makes me love Shigefusa even more. Thanks for sharing!

JBroida
11-03-2011, 02:42 AM
a while back i was hanging out with Izuka-san and Iwasaki-san and i had asked about the steel and why they use it. Iwasaki-san started explaining the differences in steels to me... then he grabbed a chunk of tamahagane, some of the Swedish steel, a 200 year old nail, and a few other pieces of steel (including some soft iron) and we sat there and compared them on a grinder... the tamahagane (which was of great quality) was most similar to the Swedish steel and Iwasaki-san explained that he likes that steel because it is most similar and has the qualities he is looking for... fine grained, right amount of carbon, pure, etc.

Cipcich
11-03-2011, 04:18 AM
[QUOTE=JBroida;53832]a while back i was hanging out with Izuka-san and Iwasaki-san
I wish I could say something like that . . .

DwarvenChef
11-03-2011, 04:28 AM
Only time I can tell the difference between steels is on the stones, and that could also be affected by HT. Once an edge is set up and cutting, I just don't care what the core is made of as long as it works as intended (by me). I do like having different steels as they all age differently and I like that very much :)

Peco
11-03-2011, 07:34 AM
Thanks for all the info - went with white #1 ... now I just need this little toy to arrive A.S.A.P :D

Justin0505
11-03-2011, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE=JBroida;53832]a while back i was hanging out with Izuka-san and Iwasaki-san
I wish I could say something like that . . .

+1

Edgy Guy
11-06-2011, 11:09 PM
[QUOTE=JBroida;53832]a while back i was hanging out with Izuka-san and Iwasaki-san
I wish I could say something like that . . .

I cannot say that, but I CAN say ... a while back I was hanging out with Jon Broida.

Julien
06-01-2015, 01:52 AM
Also heard Shigefusa likes sweedish steel because beeing close to the north pole the particules in it have the same orientation...

chiffonodd
06-01-2015, 02:36 AM
Also heard Shigefusa likes sweedish steel because beeing close to the north pole the particules in it have the same orientation...

And thus began the KKF expedition to the farthest reaches of the arctic circle . . .

Lizzardborn
06-01-2015, 02:47 AM
Also heard Shigefusa likes sweedish steel because beeing close to the north pole the particules in it have the same orientation...

That is not how it works ... not how any of this works.

gic
06-01-2015, 03:19 AM
I was hoping the north pole thing was a joke :-)

Julien
06-01-2015, 03:26 AM
That is not how it works ... not how any of this works.

Please educate me

Lizzardborn
06-01-2015, 04:38 AM
Please educate me

@gic - seems it is not.

The earth's weak magnetic field cannot do anything to material inner structure. We know how to melt with induction and it requires quite a bit more power. Extracting the iron from the iron ore is a process that is somewhat violent and intensive so any structure is destroyed in the process. Ditto with carburization and adding alloyed elements.

And then comes heat treatment that is effectively wiping the existing microstructure of the material and creating your own.

supersayan3
06-03-2015, 06:37 PM
How is the edge retention between the two? Blue's retention is like aogami, or something between white and aogami?

chefcomesback
06-03-2015, 06:52 PM
Blue ( blue paper ) = ao gami

Tall Dark and Swarfy
06-03-2015, 07:21 PM
And thus began the KKF expedition to the farthest reaches of the arctic circle . . .

Let's meet up at the Paha Kurki in Rovaniemi Finland for some langdrinks. They understand metal... hair metal.

Was all this worth bringing a 4 year old thread back to life?

supersayan3
06-03-2015, 09:28 PM
sorry, aogami super I wanted to say

chinacats
06-03-2015, 10:09 PM
sorry, aogami super I wanted to say

yes, retention (all other factors being equal) would go white>blue>blue super.

Lizzardborn
06-04-2015, 12:21 AM
yes, retention (all other factors being equal) would go white>blue>blue super.

If > means greater I think the direction goes the other way. Aogami super is alloyed steel that has vanadium and wolfram added which IIRC increase the retention of the edge as a general rule.

chinacats
06-04-2015, 12:36 AM
If > means greater I think the direction goes the other way. Aogami super is alloyed steel that has vanadium and wolfram added which IIRC increase the retention of the edge as a general rule.

Sorry, didn't mean greater than, meant least to longest retention.

From my taping days > just meant goes into (chinacat>rider:)).still like the way it looks and never consider that people take it as less than or greater than...guess it's been too long since I've taken a math class.