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labor of love
01-29-2018, 05:27 PM
Any interest in testing this workhorse honyaki made for me by Kippington?
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34734-Commission-WIP?highlight=Kippington
Iím going to be very selective about who I allow to use this knife...obviously...Iíll explain and give more details later in the day.

Kippington
01-29-2018, 06:58 PM
Aw sweet! :biggrin:

Have you got a pic of what it currently looks like?
I'm curious to see how the mirror polish is holding up to a patina.

labor of love
01-30-2018, 01:12 PM
Aw sweet! :biggrin:

Have you got a pic of what it currently looks like?
I'm curious to see how the mirror polish is holding up to a patina.

Itís loaded up with patina at this point. I will try and remove much of it w BKF to take a decent pic. The mirror polish hung in there for a few weeks, but my daily workload eventually overwhelmed it lol. Do you still have a pic of the mirror polish somewhere? It definitely looked stunning ootb.

labor of love
01-30-2018, 01:52 PM
The reason I want to do this pass around is because I would like to drum up support for Kippington. Heís our guy, who relatively recently acquired his hobbiest craftsman badge here at the forum. Heís full of innovative ideas about how to make knives better. As great as it is to chase after accomplished makers whose work resonates with you, I really the idea of supporting a guy like Kippington. This gyuto is great in all the areas that matter to me. He is a math wizard, and it shows in the extreme distal taper and grind. That being said, this is a workhorse. So it does have a beefy feel to it while maintaining a weight thatís comfortable in hand (I wanna say somewhere around 205grams-210 grams).
I wanted this particular knife because I thought I would be cool to own a workhorse honyaki as it seems most honyaki blades are quite thin. So this blade feels special in that respect. But I should point out that heís not just making workhorse blades, Iíll likely be getting something thinner from him soon.
The steel used was W2, which I found equally enjoyable to sharpen as heiji carbon and mizuno honyaki, although it would be nice to get a second opinion (Anton?). It has all attributes that honyaki fans like IMO. Kippington just doesnít have an established reputation yet that other makers do. But Iím confident he will once he gets more commissions and feedback. Anyway, if youíre on a Hiromoto honyaki budget I would suggest you atleast consider Kippington first, customizing a honyaki is a pretty cool venture IMO.
Anyway, enough shilling.
This is a very important knife to me so Iím going to be selective about who uses it. Sorry, but thatís just way itís gotta be. I donít have any rules set in stone yet but regular posters that have been posting for a couple of years most likely wonít have a problem getting in.

chinacats
01-30-2018, 02:03 PM
If you'd be down with a Portland passaround, if like to try it and as you know there are a couple pros here that maybe interested as well...I'll hit up Josh and Travis if cool with you?

Funny but the very first honyaki I had tried was Salty's Mizuno a few years back and it gave me the impression that all honyaki were workhorses...I've since found out how special that knife was.

labor of love
01-30-2018, 02:13 PM
If you'd be down with a Portland passaround, if like to try it and as you know there are a couple pros here that maybe interested as well...I'll hit up Josh and Travis if cool with you?

Funny but the very first honyaki I had tried was Salty's Mizuno a few years back and it gave me the impression that all honyaki were workhorses...I've since found out how special that knife was.

Oh man Brainsausage would love this knife! I know he loves his Toyamas and Katos. Yeah letís do it.

labor of love
01-30-2018, 02:14 PM
Edit-double post

milkbaby
01-30-2018, 03:07 PM
Great idea and very generous passaround offer! :doublethumbsup:

I've enjoyed Kippington's posts and want to throw my name in but definitely have no time for a passaround. It's an exciting idea though.

chiffonodd
01-30-2018, 03:19 PM
Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.

labor of love
01-30-2018, 03:50 PM
Hereís some rough pics to show the knife in its current condition. Still impressed by how light it is-which I suppose is a testament to its killer distal taper.https://m.imgur.com/a/000c3
The spine is about twice as thick as my KS but the knife only weighs 35-40grams more than KS.
Kippington took better pics of the distal taper in his WIP commission thread than I ever could.

Godslayer
01-30-2018, 04:23 PM
That grind looks amazing :D If your ok with canucks I'd love to play with her, my honyaki experience is fairly limited with only one honyaki in my possession and another enroute but I'm sure I can give some good feedback on this blade from a professional point of view. I'm not sure why but the blade reminds me of a very early dalman, and we all know how that guy turned out. :knife:

Miles
01-31-2018, 03:30 AM
I'd love to be able to check it out. I'm really curious to see Kippington' s work.

Kippington
01-31-2018, 09:12 AM
Thanks for the kind words Labor (and for the passaround!), I really appreciate it :biggrin:

labor of love
01-31-2018, 12:00 PM
I'd love to be able to check it out. I'm really curious to see Kippington' s work.

Cool. Youíre in.

labor of love
01-31-2018, 12:00 PM
That grind looks amazing :D If your ok with canucks I'd love to play with her, my honyaki experience is fairly limited with only one honyaki in my possession and another enroute but I'm sure I can give some good feedback on this blade from a professional point of view. I'm not sure why but the blade reminds me of a very early dalman, and we all know how that guy turned out. :knife:
Iím sorry but I think it would be best to keep it in the states.

labor of love
01-31-2018, 12:04 PM
Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.

No worries. Ill simply tell you what Kippington told me right before he sent it off, the knife is quite thin behind edge so be careful. That would go for sharpening and use. I do want you guys to test it on the stones though, it feels so nice.

panda
01-31-2018, 12:57 PM
I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.

chinacats
01-31-2018, 01:31 PM
I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.

Have to agree that there is generally way too much emphasis placed on looks vs performance. Really looking forward to giving this one a go.

Miles
01-31-2018, 01:34 PM
Cool. Youíre in.
Great! Thanks!

HRC_64
01-31-2018, 01:48 PM
I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.

+1

Wdestate
01-31-2018, 02:35 PM
I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.

Not that it would ever change your opinion but I own honyaki from pretty much every "old master" certainly the more known ones mentioned here from Japan and I have plenty of customs that perform as good as any of them. However that extra aesthetic is very expensive and does not add to performance for the most part ( I personally prefer some of the ergonomics brought into custom tho)

milkbaby
01-31-2018, 09:10 PM
Bloodroot, Dalman, Catchside, and a bunch of other makers are very interested in performance and what aspects of their knives contribute to it, and a lot of the evidence for that is here on the forum. Strange assertion, just saying... I think most custom makers who specialize in kitchen cutlery are very interested in getting the best performance and constantly doing R&D.

bkultra
01-31-2018, 10:31 PM
I know firsthand just how interested Bloodroot Blades is when it comes to performance aspects. We (David and I) have shared many emails and they have all focused around profile and geometry. The only time we discussed cosmetics is when I would bring them up. David would rank at the highest level of obsession I have seen amongst our membership. When he is not making knives, he is researching them... Always looking for good sources of information, be it books or feedback. They may be a vendor here, but with a nearly 4yr wait list do you think they are here to increase sales or because they see us as one such resource?

labor of love
02-03-2018, 07:16 PM
Okay first Iíll be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
Chiffonodd
Miles
East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).

Pensacola Tiger
02-03-2018, 08:49 PM
Okay first Iíll be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
Chiffonodd
Miles
East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).

Can't wait!

chinacats
02-03-2018, 08:52 PM
Sweet!

labor of love
02-03-2018, 09:03 PM
Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.

Are you friends w pleue by chance?

chiffonodd
02-03-2018, 09:29 PM
Are you friends w pleue by chance?

Haven't met actually but happy to coordinate around here like I said.

pleue
02-03-2018, 10:59 PM
You rang :)? I'd love to check it out. I'm out of the kitchen but would love to try it at home. I'm in portland, or btw

daveb
02-03-2018, 11:40 PM
Okay first Iíll be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
Chiffonodd
Miles
East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).

I wasn't going to ask to be in, fearing I might like it. But. The PO knows the route from Rick to me by rote. Please?

labor of love
02-03-2018, 11:42 PM
I was sorta insulted you didnít ask sooner. 😀
I wasn't going to ask to be in, fearing I might like it. But. The PO knows the route from Rick to me by rote. Please?

labor of love
02-03-2018, 11:45 PM
So now we have 3 hubs. Florida, east coast connect, PNW and gotta fit Miles in somewhere.

daveb
02-03-2018, 11:51 PM
Miles is in Texas. It's its own thing.

labor of love
02-04-2018, 12:11 AM
You rang :)? I'd love to check it out. I'm out of the kitchen but would love to try it at home. I'm in portland, or btw

Cool. Good to hear.

Kippington
02-04-2018, 12:41 AM
Guys, does it add much to the cost of shipping to have another knife in the passaround? Like, two knives going around together instead of just the one?

I made a thin knife (concave both sides) that would be a nice contrast to the thick grind.
I'm considering sending this with the passaround if it's a cheap thing to do.

https://i.imgur.com/O6EtnQl.jpg

If it's costly I won't bother.

panda
02-04-2018, 12:52 AM
kip what was your idea behind the dual concave grind? max food release? that looks way too thin at the edge, lol, you know someone gonna chip the hell out of it.

dave - you're not gonna like it, it's carbon! :D

Kippington
02-04-2018, 12:58 AM
Max food release? More like the worst food release possible haha!

I made it to push the limits of my heat-treatment (before I got the temp controlled oven), and to see how a 'thin behind the edge' knife would perform in a real world kitchen with the average user.

It sticks to everything, but goes through things like they're not there! It's also amazing how fast this thing sharpens with so little steel to remove. A couple of swipes up and down a 4,000 grit polishing stone and the bevel has been reset!

panda
02-04-2018, 01:01 AM
oh, i was thinking about takeda grind, not fully concave from spine to edge. you right, i bet that thing sucks in every food like a vacuum. i would love to see more updates on all your projects, do you have a blog or instagram?

Kippington
02-04-2018, 01:11 AM
Unfortunately no, I'm not much of a social media person - I don't even have Facebook.
It would be wise of me to set up an Instagram account though. Just gotta knuckle down and do it.

panda
02-04-2018, 01:24 AM
get on it man!!

Godslayer
02-04-2018, 01:25 AM
Added shipping cost on a second knife would be minimal, couple bucks, that knife looks exciting but also looks like you would have to be uber careful with technique as any lateral pressure would destroy it, you should take more pics and get that instagram account rolling.

labor of love
02-04-2018, 01:35 AM
Yeah, I think 2 very diff knives would be a great idea. Donít see why anyone would mind.

panda
02-04-2018, 01:52 AM
Kip do you have any suji in the works?

toddnmd
02-04-2018, 03:58 PM
Double passaround? I'd love to be included. I'm in DC area (Northern Virginia).

Miles
02-04-2018, 04:04 PM
Wow! That sounds terrific!

labor of love
02-04-2018, 04:29 PM
Double passaround? I'd love to be included. I'm in DC area (Northern Virginia).

Cool.

Kippington
02-05-2018, 08:15 AM
Good news! Double passaround has been confirmed! :biggrin:

Marek07 - the owner of the thin knife - has been kind enough to humor my proposal to send it out West (I probably should've run it past him beforehand).
It'll be sent out to the first person on the passaround list (I believe it's Pensacola Tiger) as soon as we can confirm an address. Hopefully the knife won't take longer then a couple of weeks to get there and the passaround goes along as planned.

No suji on the cards yet Panda. I'm gonna stick to making gyutos for a while.

Kippington
02-08-2018, 12:19 AM
Marek's knife should be touching down in the US in the next couple of days.
I know this is obvious, but I have to stress these points:


DON'T use coarse or medium stones on this knife. Removing only a small amount of metal will reset the entire bevel
DO try the knife on fine stones, 4,000 grit and up. It would be nice to hear some opinions on sharpening feedback.
DON'T cut hard items with this knife (no thick pumpkin skins)
DO absolutely use it to cut potatoes in half. I'd love to know if anyone has a knife that can fall through food better (or quieter!) than Marek's 'laser'

Neither of these knives belong to me, so I'd like to give heartfelt thanks to both Marek and Craig for sending out my work for preview. This post is to help get the knives back to their respective owners in good condition.

Feel free to post any thoughts or criticisms - good or bad. I don't make knives for a living so it's not like bad reviews will hurt my income.
I mostly do this to keep learning about blade performance and design (and coz it's hella fun!). Hopefully these two knives on the opposite ends of the laser/workhorse spectrum will help showcase that.

panda
02-08-2018, 12:33 AM
in other words research/feedback from workhorse vs laser will result in hybrid next? =P

Kippington
02-08-2018, 12:54 AM
in other words research/feedback from workhorse vs laser will result in hybrid next? =P

Actually, I leaned a lot about the transition from workhorse to laser from making Craig's knife. A long tapered blade, even if it's thick at the heel, can still perform like a laser towards the tip. Food release gets worse but separation gets better as the spine shrinks - we all know that right? How that transitions from thick to thin along the length of a single blade-face was fascinating to me, and was something I hadn't considered till recently. A heavy taper lends itself to a multi-functional service - highly dependent on the users' arm motion, as well as the location (and direction) of the cut in relation to its distance from the handle.

https://i.imgur.com/VXzdZVS.jpg

You are essentially right, my next project is a medium weight knife with the food release of a workhorse and the separation of a 'laser'.
Well that's the idea anyway, drop everything and go straight for the unicorn! :biggrin:

panda
02-08-2018, 01:11 AM
looking forward to your end game design!!

labor of love
02-08-2018, 01:52 AM
I canít wait until people see the distal taper on the workhorse that Kippington just shared a photo of. Itís quite impressive in person.

labor of love
02-11-2018, 12:25 AM
Okay first Iíll be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
Chiffonodd
Miles
East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).

Updated order:
Pen tiger
DaveB
Toddmd
China
Maybe brainsausage
Maybe tkern
chiffonodd
Pleue
Miles
Panda

labor of love
02-11-2018, 12:37 AM
I didnít leave anyone out did I?

labor of love
02-11-2018, 12:48 AM
Before I let go of my Kippington, I just wanted to remind everybody why Iím doing this. I love this knife. I donít want to be without it. It saddens me just to know it wonít be in my roll when I open it at work and set up my station. But it would help Kippington to get some feedback and discussion going about his work so far. Also, I want him to get some more exposure here. And I want some others to share in the experience of Kippington workhorse awesomeness. So please letís hear some thoughts about this knife both positive and negative.
Merci Beaucoup

panda
02-11-2018, 03:29 AM
Look @ dat Creole influence 🤣 def been in kitchens long time..

Godslayer
02-11-2018, 04:32 AM
I didnít leave anyone out did I?

Can I play too :( I'll go last because I am a canuck :knife:

also whats the difference between creole and cajun lol

chinacats
02-11-2018, 10:24 AM
Updated order:
Pen tiger
DaveB
Toddmd
China
Maybe brainsausage
Maybe tkern
chiffonodd
Pleue
Miles
Panda


Okay, spoke to Josh and he's definitely down. I'll try to get with Travis this week.

ianbiringer
02-11-2018, 10:37 AM
So, I didnít initially respond to this because I thought youíd probably want to send it to people whoíve been around on the site longer. However, on second thought it doesnít hurt to ask. Iím in Boston (maybe someone else on the list is in New England too?) And if you want more info on me you can find me on googleómy handleís my real name. Again, totally understand if you want to keep the rotation to more experienced members, but thought Iíd ask.

labor of love
02-11-2018, 11:49 AM
So, I didnít initially respond to this because I thought youíd probably want to send it to people whoíve been around on the site longer. However, on second thought it doesnít hurt to ask. Iím in Boston (maybe someone else on the list is in New England too?) And if you want more info on me you can find me on googleómy handleís my real name. Again, totally understand if you want to keep the rotation to more experienced members, but thought Iíd ask.
Thanks for the interest but I think I would rather keep this pass around exclusively for more seasoned forum members.

ianbiringer
02-11-2018, 11:53 AM
No problem, that makes sense.

labor of love
02-11-2018, 11:58 AM
Also, Iím not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Marekís Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.

Kippington
02-11-2018, 12:07 PM
I'm willing to throw in some cash to help you send it back. I believe PT has also kindly offered.

Pensacola Tiger
02-11-2018, 12:39 PM
Also, Iím not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Marekís Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.


I'm willing to throw in some cash to help you send it back. I believe PT has also kindly offered.

Priority Mail International should cost around $55 plus insurance for any value over $200.

chiffonodd
02-11-2018, 01:33 PM
Also, Iím not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Marekís Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.

I agree that it is more than fair for anyone who participates in the passaround to help cover costs back to Oz. Just let us know the best way to do this.

Miles
02-11-2018, 01:36 PM
Absolutely. More than happy to pitch in.

labor of love
02-11-2018, 03:46 PM
Priority Mail International should cost around $55 plus insurance for any value over $200.

Thanks. So thereís 10 participants, if everyone donates $6-7 that should pretty much cover the costs( Iím guessing that will pretty much cover insurance too). We can wait until the end collect the funds. Sound good?

chinacats
02-11-2018, 04:13 PM
Makes sense to me:)

chiffonodd
02-11-2018, 04:27 PM
Yup!

pleue
02-11-2018, 08:02 PM
Works for me

ashy2classy
02-11-2018, 09:57 PM
So when will we be able to buy these things??? :biggrin:

labor of love
02-11-2018, 10:03 PM
Kippington might as well crank out some workhorses, people are going to want them.

Kippington
02-11-2018, 11:38 PM
Hah, I'd need to buy stock in thicker cross-sections to make more!
Lets see how these knives get reviewed first. :)

panda
02-12-2018, 12:14 AM
pleeeeeease get some shirogami, or spicy white from devin thomas! or just more W2 ;)

TheCaptain
02-12-2018, 12:18 AM
pleeeeeease get some shirogami, or spicy white from devin thomas! or just more W2 ;)
+1!

Kippington
02-12-2018, 12:28 AM
I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.

labor of love
02-12-2018, 12:46 AM
Is the Kipp laser also w2? It would be pretty cool if it wasnít, Iíd personally like to compare the 2 steels to each other.

chinacats
02-12-2018, 12:46 AM
I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.

Stick with carbon please! Nothing wrong with 1095, or O1, or W2, or... :)

milkbaby
02-12-2018, 02:14 AM
I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.

Stainless is probably an easier sell to the masses than non-stainless. Although if you anticipate your target customer to be like the average knife nut here, that's not as important. I hardly ever use any stainless in the kitchen myself.

Kippington
02-12-2018, 02:40 AM
Yeah thats one of the reasons I bought the temperature controlled kiln - For its ability to do stainless knives. I've lived with enough housemates to see that there's absolutely no way the average person would be able to keep a super thin carbon knife in reasonable shape.
They've managed to rust my house-share knife, a VG-10 shun. I'm not even mad... I'm impressed!


Is the Kipp laser also w2? It would be pretty cool if it wasnít, Iíd personally like to compare the 2 steels to each other.

They are both W2. No comparisons, unfortunately.

daveb
02-12-2018, 07:31 AM
Stick with carbon please! Nothing wrong with 1095, or O1, or W2, or... :)

Pls ignore the Luddite.:cool2:

Kippington
02-12-2018, 06:52 PM
Are you making knives too dave?

There's a "Dave B" over on hypefreeblades who has made kitchen bladesmithing posts over the last month.

chinacats
02-12-2018, 06:54 PM
Are you making knives too dave?

There's a "Dave B" over on hypefreeblades who has made kitchen bladesmithing posts over the last month.

Are they stainless?

Danzo
02-14-2018, 10:47 PM
Iím a little late to this discussion. I donít expect to be put on the list here, but chiffnod, if by PNW you mean Seattle, Iíd love to sneak a peek while you have it. This knife looks amazing, Iíd be willing to drive, a bit.

panda
02-15-2018, 04:08 AM
dave would be making stainless suji's

daveb
02-15-2018, 07:52 AM
Not me. I can make dinner. I can make a mess. But I come up short in the mechanical aptitude department.

But the world does need more stainless sujis.

Pensacola Tiger
02-15-2018, 07:32 PM
Marek's knife was delivered safe and sound.

Awaiting Craig's knife later today.

Rick

panda
02-15-2018, 07:34 PM
hey pt cruiser, you should do a video! and include two knives that these two examples remind you the most of for comparison sake. i really like that youre the first in this passaround since youve tried anything and everything out there.

Pensacola Tiger
02-15-2018, 09:04 PM
hey pt cruiser, you should do a video! and include two knives that these two examples remind you the most of for comparison sake. i really like that youre the first in this passaround since youve tried anything and everything out there.

No promises on the video, but I'll try.

I have both knives now and will be using them this weekend. Stay tuned.

Kippington
02-15-2018, 09:16 PM
They both arrived on the same day? Sweet!

Pandas suggestion on comparisons to other knives is a good idea. Looking forward to your thoughts.

supersayan3
02-20-2018, 10:38 AM
Just saw the post , what a beautiful knife [emoji7]
Thumbs up [emoji106]

Pensacola Tiger
02-23-2018, 12:35 AM
Both knives will be on the way to DaveB all too soon for me. I've enjoyed using them for the last week and will be sorry to see them go. I'll have something to post soon.

Thanks to Marek and Craig for lending them, and Jules for making them!

labor of love
02-24-2018, 03:57 PM
Iíve got some exciting news....I offered Devin Thomas a spot in the pass around and he accepted. I want to place him in between Daveb and Todd( makes the most sense geographically).
Glad to have you on board Devin.

Miles
02-24-2018, 04:44 PM
Wow!!! Fantastic!

Pensacola Tiger
02-24-2018, 06:36 PM
I just got a good mailing address for daveb, and the knives will be on the way to him Monday.

ashy2classy
02-27-2018, 11:33 AM
So wish I could participate (assuming the list is complete)! Looking forward to hearing everyone's impressions.

Pensacola Tiger
03-07-2018, 04:56 AM
On arrival I formed some quick impressions. Both knives had nicely rounded spines and choil areas, which spoke to the level of detail involved in their making. The edges on both knives were more than acceptable. The handles on both knives were austerely plain by the standards of many, but were completely functional.

I took a few measurements of both knives:

Kippington 24 cm honyaki wa-gyuto

Weight 225 g
Total Length 387 mm
Tip to Heel Length 247 mm
Blade Height @ Heel 53 mm
Spine Above Heel 4.1 mm
Spine @ Midblade 2.7 mm
Spine 1cm From tip 0.5 mm
Handle Design Octagonal plain wood

Kippington 24 cm wa-gyuto

Weight 178 g
Total Length 392 mm
Tip to Heel Length 243 mm
Blade Height @ Heel 53 mm
Spine Above Heel 3.3 mm
Spine @ Midbladee 2.5 mm
Spine 1cm From tip 0.5 mm
Steel
Handle Design Octagonal plain wood

The profiles were nearly identical, yet the two knives were very much different in both feel and use. The honyaki had a much more pronounced forward weighting, which tended to make it feel more authoritative in use, much like using a Yoshiaki Fujiwara (Kato). This made using it slightly more satisfying, at least to me.

Both knives were very think behind the edge and excelled in cutting shorter product. The honyaki, with its wider spine had a slight tendency to break root vegetables like potatoes and large carrots if the ear of the blade was used. Cutting with the forward part of the blade eliminated this tendency. The other knife had no such issue.

Adhesion of product was not objectionable in either knife, though the release of the honyaki was, unsurprisingly, somewhat better.

Neither knife was highly reactive in use, even without patina, unlike some soft iron clad knives that would turn onions brown. The honyaki had some patina that I added to during the test, while the other knife arrived clean and took on some patina while I had it.

Both knives had tips that were quite thin, and making the horizontal cuts in an onion preparatory to dicing it was an absurdly easy task.

Using the lighter gyuto reminded me of a either a Kochi with a somewhat flatter profile, or of a well-ground kurouchi Carter. It fell through food with no trace of wedging and with minimal adhesion.

Using the heavier bladed knife most reminded me of using a Watanabe Pro or a non-workhorse Kato - there was an authority to the knife that made prep fun and a bit more efficient. I found that I tended to reach for the honyaki more often because of this.

I canít comment on edge retention, except to say that after a week of preparing meals at home I was unable to detect any degradation of the edges of either knife.

Iíve racked my brain to try to find something that might be improved in wither knife and come up empty.

I was sad to send them on to Dave when my week was up, and look forward to having one for my own.

Thanks again for the opportunity to use and compare these blades.

Wdestate
03-07-2018, 09:32 AM
Nice write up Pensacola

Pensacola Tiger
03-07-2018, 10:43 AM
Correction. "Both knives were very think behind the edge..." should read "Both knives were very thin behind the edge...".

Kippington
03-07-2018, 06:38 PM
Very cool! Thanks for the review. :)

panda
03-07-2018, 11:40 PM
gonna be pretty cool to compare the heat treatment of two differentially hardened W2 (this vs mario) workhorses :)

Kippington
03-08-2018, 02:56 AM
A HT comparison sounds like a good idea!
Keep in mind that I did the HT on these two passarounds by eye. Since then I've bought a temperature controlled kiln for better accuracy.
I could never really shake the thought that, no matter how much practice I'd had, the quality of my HT was hanging on how well my eyes could differentiate a redish-orange from an orangish-red!

https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/cms/Craftman-Table.jpg;maxWidth=600

Any idea on how Mario does his HT?

panda
03-24-2018, 01:24 AM
who has the knives now? and where are the impressions? :)

Anton
03-24-2018, 01:41 AM
A HT comparison sounds like a good idea!
Keep in mind that I did the HT on these two passarounds by eye. Since then I've bought a temperature controlled kiln for better accuracy.
I could never really shake the thought that, no matter how much practice I'd had, the quality of my HT was hanging on how well my eyes could differentiate a redish-orange from an orangish-red!

https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/cms/Craftman-Table.jpg;maxWidth=600

Any idea on how Mario does his HT?

Forgive my naiveness, but isn't there a way to measure this with let's say laser thermometer, or something along these lines?

labor of love
03-24-2018, 02:04 AM
who has the knives now? and where are the impressions? :)

Good ole daveb is about to chime in at any moment.

bkultra
03-24-2018, 08:39 AM
Forgive my naiveness, but isn't there a way to measure this with let's say laser thermometer, or something along these lines?

In this video you can watch Tatsuo Ikeda call out the exact second the blade hits 800 degrees Celsius (by eye). They use a FLIR infrared camera to confirm the temperature. This near the very end of the video (around 20:16)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYlXWHo7fk4

daveb
03-24-2018, 10:34 AM
USPS has it. Heading to Vegas.

Kippington
03-24-2018, 03:12 PM
@Anton and bkultra

I spent a couple of hundred dollars on a good IR thermometer, only to discover they are not as accurate as I was lead to believe, (unless you're willing to spend thousands of dollars).
Using IR, a reading +/- 50įC off the actual temp is a good result under these circumstances... and with those numbers you may as well save some money and use your eyes and your instincts instead. Basically even with an IR thermometer, HT'ing in an open forge still feels like a crap-shoot.

I have a bit of a rant about this screenshot:

https://i.imgur.com/rqa2bbZ.jpg

According to this image, both the tip and the heel of the knife are sitting at around 700įC when he calls it. If this were true, they won't harden properly in the quench. It also means that his window of opportunity to call 800įC was huge, as he could've called it 100įC earlier and he still would've been technically 'right'.

At the bottom left you can see the camera has the E/ε/emissivity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity) set to 1.00. This is the factory default setting on IR thermometers, and the fact that they left it on 1 tells me that they made no compensation for emissivity (or likely the reflectivity) of the steel.
To put this into perspective, as I type this my IR thermometer tells me the wooden floor in my room is 22.4įC with ε=1.0, or -40.1įC with ε=0.1 - a difference of over 60 degrees. Cheap IR thermometers don't give the option to change this setting.

From The Engineering Toolbox (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html):

The emissivity coefficient - ε - indicates the radiation of heat from a 'grey body' according the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, compared with the radiation of heat from a ideal 'black body' with the emissivity coefficient ε = 1.
The emissivity coefficient - ε - for some common materials can be found in the table below. Note that the emissivity coefficients for some products varies with the temperature. As a guideline the emmisivities below are based on temperature 300 K.


Surface MaterialEmissivity Coefficient (ε)
Steel Oxidized0.79
Steel Polished0.07
Stainless Steel, weathered0.85
Stainless Steel, polished0.075
Stainless Steel, type 3010.54 - 0.63
Steel Galvanized Old0.88
Steel Galvanized New0.23

All of this, plus the absence of recalescence in the image (a temporary rise in temperature of a cooling metal caused by a change in crystal structure, starting at roughly 720įC in air-cooled carbon steels) leads me to believe that they've actually under-shot the mark with the camera, and that the center of the blade is considerably hotter than the 799.9įC we're told.

https://i.imgur.com/BK1naJY.gif
(recalescence) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recalescence)

Bleh... f**king thermodynamics!

Kippington
03-24-2018, 10:56 PM
This image helps to illustrate the problem:
The faces on this cube are all the same temperature, but the differing emissivity and reflectivity of the surfaces make each one appear different to an IR camera. You can even see the reflection of the hand on a couple of the faces. Only the black surface has an accurate reading at this setting (E=1.00), which is the same setting they used in the Ikeda video. In other words, the cameras are set up for an incorrect reading on metal.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/LesliesCube.png

(Photographs of an aluminum Leslie's cube. The color photographs are taken using an infrared camera; the black and white photographs underneath are taken with an ordinary camera. All faces of the cube are at the same temperature of about 55 įC (131 įF). The face of the cube that has been painted black has a large emissivity, which is indicated by the reddish color in the infrared photograph. The polished face of the cube has a low emissivity indicated by the blue color, and the reflected image of the warm hand is clear.)

HRC_64
03-24-2018, 11:30 PM
^good post^

labor of love
04-11-2018, 04:39 PM
Knifes should be on the way to Todd. China, you will be on deck soon enough.

Updated order:
Pen tiger
DaveB
Toddmd
China
Maybe brainsausage
Maybe tkern
chiffonodd
Pleue
Miles
Panda

panda
04-11-2018, 05:06 PM
i hope it's not going to be a fat arse by the time it gets to me. dont ruin the geometry too fast guys! :D

skewed
04-18-2018, 01:06 AM
Craig- I would enjoy a chance to check this one out too. Thanks.

labor of love
04-18-2018, 01:10 AM
Craig- I would enjoy a chance to check this one out too. Thanks.

😎 done

toddnmd
04-18-2018, 08:44 AM
Just a quick update--I received the knives on Monday. LoL was cool with me holding on to them until the East Coast Gathering on 04/29, so I'll bring them along and people can check them out there.

panda
04-18-2018, 04:34 PM
todd why dont you write up your impressions in the mean time?

Kippington
04-19-2018, 11:12 PM
Yes please! :biggrin: