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slowtyper
11-14-2011, 10:27 PM
Do you sharpen the entire blade road and treat it as any other single-bevel, or do you sharpen just the cutting edge?

UglyJoe
11-14-2011, 11:24 PM
Do you sharpen the entire blade road and treat it as any other single-bevel, or do you sharpen just the cutting edge?

Entire blade road. See here (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1791-New-Yoshihiro-deba-First-impressions-and-initial-sharpening&highlight=) for an example of my initial sharpening of my Yoshihiro deba.

ThEoRy
11-15-2011, 12:10 AM
Blade road then edge. Don't forget uraoshi too.

slowtyper
11-15-2011, 01:19 AM
For some reason I remember reading somewhere to not bother with the whole blade road for deba. I'm not sure why....or where I even read that...

tk59
11-15-2011, 01:21 AM
That's strange. Like any knife, it'll get thick at the edge if you don't thin it. That's pretty much what the blade road is for, isn't it?

slowtyper
11-15-2011, 01:29 AM
i wonder how i got that in my head...

Citizen Snips
11-15-2011, 02:44 AM
blade road, then hamaguri for edge, then ura (on finishing stone)

rinse and repeat

TB_London
11-15-2011, 08:23 AM
Sometimes a microbevel will be added to the heel section to strengthen that area for chopping through vertebrae etc, this may be what the OP has read about?

TheDispossessed
05-19-2013, 05:35 PM
what grit do you all generally finish a deba at?
i usually finish my blades on a gesshin 4k and then strop on newsprint

ThEoRy
05-19-2013, 05:42 PM
5k then diamond for me.

TheDispossessed
05-20-2013, 12:54 AM
thanks theory!

mpukas
05-20-2013, 01:00 AM
Is what you guys are calling the blade road AKA the secondary bevel?

ThEoRy
05-20-2013, 01:25 AM
The blade road is from the shinogi down to the lamination line.

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 01:34 AM
For some reason I remember reading somewhere to not bother with the whole blade road for deba. I'm not sure why....or where I even read that...


That's strange. Like any knife, it'll get thick at the edge if you don't thin it. That's pretty much what the blade road is for, isn't it?

Blade road on most debas are convex is I'm not wrong? So just sharpening the edge till the knife becomes to thick might be a good idea for someone lacking the tools or skill to thin the convex road. If you thin a convex road on a bench stone you will flatten it, running the knife. Deba's gave me a hard time for a long time. On my expensive ones I still send them to Dave for thinning of the blade road or bad damage repair.

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 01:35 AM
The blade road is from the shinogi down to the lamination line.

I have always thought of the blade road as shinogi to edge, with two areas (jigane and hagane) within the blade road.

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 01:42 AM
what grit do you all generally finish a deba at?
i usually finish my blades on a gesshin 4k and then strop on newsprint

King 800 then polish with j-nats or leather belt.

ThEoRy
05-20-2013, 01:55 AM
I have always thought of the blade road as shinogi to edge, with two areas (jigane and hagane) within the blade road.

You are right, it is. Since I convex the edge at the lamination line i just personally consider the blade road to stop there and the secondary bevel to begin down to the primary. Of course this is after the entire blade road has been flattened which again leads to you being right.

zitangy
05-20-2013, 01:57 AM
Blade road on most debas are convex is I'm not wrong? So just sharpening the edge till the knife becomes to thick might be a good idea for someone lacking the tools or skill to thin the convex road.

I believe that you right.

Thus I use sandpaper ( 600 grit on the index finger the to thin the blade road to the edge and stone for the edge area. Finally finer 1000 grit sandpaper to even things out.

IF I need the blade road to move upwards slightly, wld use sandpaper on soft backing. Alternatively, I may use a small block of wood as a backing for the sandpaper.

I find that I have better control.

rgds
d

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 02:10 AM
You are right, it is. Since I convex the edge at the lamination line i just personally consider the blade road to stop there and the secondary bevel to begin down to the primary. Of course this is after the entire blade road has been flattened which again leads to you being right.

I am not sure I follow what you are saying. Are you making the hagane section convex, and leaving everything flat above that?

I always grind shinogi to lamination line, then lamination to edge and blend between. Are you doing something different?

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 02:13 AM
I use finger stones when Maintaining the edge,kind if like what you are doing with the sand paper but I do it mostly for the looks not the Minimal amount of thinning it does. When it comes to damage (Common for me with dabes, they get used and abused a lot) I don't have the skill, time, Or patients to fix it all properly. Better safe then sorry when playing with knives I love, I send them out to someone better at fixing them then me.
I believe that you right.

Thus I use sandpaper ( 600 grit on the index finger the to thin the blade road to the edge and stone for the edge area. Finally finer 1000 grit sandpaper to even things out.

IF I need the blade road to move upwards slightly, wld use sandpaper on soft backing. Alternatively, I may use a small block of wood as a backing for the sandpaper.

I find that I have better control.

rgds
d

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 02:20 AM
I am not sure I follow what you are saying. Are you making the hagane section convex, and leaving everything flat above that?

I always grind shinogi to lamination line, then lamination to edge and blend between. Are you doing something different?

I go from shinogi to lamination line, then edge to lamination line, then blend in between, then micro bevel when sharpening. On most Debas I have, they are convex from shinogi to the lamination line. Then if your lucky flat from there to the edge. I say lucky because most debas are not hand finished, thus not flat but in many cases hollow, bad bad bad

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 02:35 AM
I go from shinogi to lamination line, then edge to lamination line, then blend in between, then micro bevel when sharpening.
Exactly as I should have said it, I am doing the same. I am curious if theory is doing something different, and how.

Then if your lucky flat from there to the edge. I say lucky because most debas are not hand finished, thus not flat but in many cases hollow, bad bad bad

I have had a few blades with concave blade road, definitely takes a bit of work to get that the way it should be.

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 02:42 AM
Exactly as I should have said it, I am doing the same. I am curious if theory is doing something different, and how.


I have had a few blades with concave blade road, definitely takes a bit of work to get that the way it should be.

I could be wrong but it sounds like he is convexing all the way down to the edge? Only way to do it is with a belt. That or a hell of a lot of time with sand paper. I had Butch make me a "westernish" Deba. It's a Double sided beveled knife but the Entire knife itself is convex, no flat spot at all thus no food release issues and one Hell of a sharp hey beefy edge. I lay it on a belt ant it sharpens its self.

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 02:45 AM
I could be wrong but it sounds like he is convexing all the way down to the edge? Only way to do it is with a belt. That or a hell of a lot of time with sand paper. I had Butch make me a "westernish" Deba. It's a Double sided beveled knife but the Entire knife itself is convex, no flat spot at all thus no food release issues and one Hell of a sharp hey beefy edge. I lay it on a belt ant it sharpens its self.

Got a picture of this thing?

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 02:45 AM
I could be wrong but it sounds like he is convexing all the way down to the edge? Only way to do it is with a belt. That or a hell of a lot of time with sand paper. I had Butch make me a "westernish" Deba. It's a Double sided beveled knife but the Entire knife itself is convex, no flat spot at all thus no food release issues and one Hell of a sharp hey beefy edge. I lay it on a belt ant it sharpens its self.

You can see it best in this unfinished pic Butch sent me before he finished it.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/4560236baa0a308d80e6c4ff194e7864.jpg

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 02:47 AM
You can see it best in this unfinished pic Butch sent me before he finished it.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/4560236baa0a308d80e6c4ff194e7864.jpg

How thick is it? What are you using it for?

ThEoRy
05-20-2013, 02:48 AM
Exactly as I should have said it, I am doing the same. I am curious if theory is doing something different, and how.


I have had a few blades with concave blade road, definitely takes a bit of work to get that the way it should be.

I'm doing it the same way as Colin.

zitangy
05-20-2013, 03:39 AM
I could be wrong but it sounds like he is convexing all the way down to the edge? Only way to do it is with a belt. That or a hell of a lot of time with sand paper. I had Butch make me a "westernish" Deba. It's a Double sided beveled knife but the Entire knife itself is convex, no flat spot at all thus no food release issues and one Hell of a sharp hey beefy edge. I lay it on a belt ant it sharpens its self.

DId it once when a deba had a 2mm chip that belongs to a friend. For him.. worst possible outcome .. cant get any worse as it was not usable. It was fun and satisfying for me. Did it on a belt grinder with no platten and I played/ adjust the pressure against the belt to get the required slack to be at the place it needs to be .. abt 2mm above the present blade road then. First I tested on an old deba that is not repairable as the rat tail is too weak. Besides I picked that up for USD$5 at a Japanese surplus store.

The initial testing was done on a 1,000grit used sand belt. Once i had the general feel, I progressed to the " victim"deba to be repaired with used 220grit and then on the 1,000 grit. Followed with sandpaper and then stone.

No complaints . I will gladly grind it further if so desired.

Wld be great with a better belt sander with a proper work table attached so that I can put a block for better consistency/ control of the blade road and preferably with a variable speed ; of which I am saving for one.

rgds
d

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 03:45 AM
How thick is it? What are you using it for?

Everything I would use a Deba on. I have chipped every Deba I have ever owned. This thing has never chipped even when I have used a rubber maul on the back side to go threw thick bone. It's 3/8" at its thickest part.

JBroida
05-20-2013, 04:14 AM
fwiw, you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be... single bevel knife sharpeing is single bevel knife sharpening... yanagiba, deba, usuba, kiritsuke... its all the same stuff

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 05:07 AM
fwiw, you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be... single bevel knife sharpeing is single bevel knife sharpening... yanagiba, deba, usuba, kiritsuke... its all the same stuff

So the convex bevel can just be done on a flat bench stone?
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/563ed498.png

bathonuk
05-20-2013, 05:19 AM
I agree with Jon. I don't have a lot of experience with single bevels but it is obvious for me that there is no differene between yanagiba, deba and usuba. Those are single bevels which where thought to thin and sharpen on the stones. I bought new deba few days ago and the first thing I did I put it on the stones, flattened blade road and sharpened. Also I wonder why so many people here are buying expensive knifes and they can't do simple things like thinning. No offence here but I think that if you have nice gear then you should be able to take care of it and the only way of doing it is trying.You will do mistake, damage something and next time you will know what to do and what you shouldn't do. Here is my movie which i recorded for the contest. This is the first time when I am thinning and sharpening deba.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb3_-aEf1FM

JBroida
05-20-2013, 05:23 AM
So the convex bevel can just be done on a flat bench stone?
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/563ed498.png

Yup... I do it all the time

TB_London
05-20-2013, 05:31 AM
I buy expensive knives, but then don't do simple things like use it everyday for its intended purpose. I think in a way it's better to learn to use the knife and then use a lot than to learn to maintain it.....

Convex on a flat stone is doable with practice. Easier to maintain a knife that has been properly set up than it is to break in a new one though.

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 09:23 PM
Yup... I do it all the time

You have One of your great videos showing how it's done?

Chef Niloc
05-20-2013, 10:06 PM
I agree with Jon. I don't have a lot of experience with single bevels but it is obvious for me that there is no differene between yanagiba, deba and usuba. Those are single bevels which where thought to thin and sharpen on the stones. I bought new deba few days ago and the first thing I did I put it on the stones, flattened blade road and sharpened. Also I wonder why so many people here are buying expensive knifes and they can't do simple things like thinning. No offence here but I think that if you have nice gear then you should be able to take care of it and the only way of doing it is trying.You will do mistake, damage something and next time you will know what to do and what you shouldn't do. Here is my movie which i recorded for the contest. This is the first time when I am thinning and sharpening deba.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb3_-aEf1FM

How much thinning Are you actually doing with a stone like that? When I think of thinning a blade road or damage repairing, I'm thinking 120 stone.

ThEoRy
05-20-2013, 10:38 PM
So the convex bevel can just be done on a flat bench stone?
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/celtic2174/Chef%20Nilocs%20Knives/563ed498.png

Yes, its all about how much pressure you apply and where, how and when you apply it, then blending.

GlassEye
05-20-2013, 10:42 PM
How much thinning Are you actually doing with a stone like that? When I think of thinning a blade road or damage repairing, I'm thinking 120 stone.

Just remove the same amount behind the edge that you are removing at the edge, do this at every sharpening and the knife should not really get thick behind the edge over time.

JBroida
05-21-2013, 12:28 AM
You have One of your great videos showing how it's done?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYZmtDlwDi4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0vdeDDSJI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCY5CKkBers


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueQVDlvfL_c

ThEoRy
05-21-2013, 02:23 AM
^^
That just happened.

bathonuk
05-21-2013, 05:39 AM
How much thinning Are you actually doing with a stone like that? When I think of thinning a blade road or damage repairing, I'm thinking 120 stone.

Chef Niloc you can see ''part 4'' in the title. I started with beston 500. It's in my videos.

zitangy
05-21-2013, 06:39 AM
fwiw, you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be... single bevel knife sharpeing is single bevel knife sharpening... yanagiba, deba, usuba, kiritsuke... its all the same stuff

my 0.01 cents input.....

True they are all single bevels, each designed with different profile , geometry and thickness for it's intended purpose(s).

My turning point is sharpening single bevels is when I realised that I have to be more aware of the pressure applied especially towards the final or finishing stages and generally, as long as I respect the profile and geometry of the knife, there is very little likelihood that I will destroy a knife. Essentially, it is steel removal where you want to make two angles meet and have it thin enough as per your preference. Whether it is flat or convex (hamaguri; also how "pregnant" it is) it is still your choice as it has its advantages and disadvantages.)

Also once metal is removed you cannot put it back and thus better to be on the cautious side as to grit and pressure applied.

AS long as it cuts beautifully adn the feel is goood... and does not chip easily ( too thin) I am free to do whatever makes sense to me, within the logical parameters. It's just a knife to be used and derive pleasure and joy when it is put to task.

Finally, I intentionally keep a slightly dished stone for the convex sharpening. Strokes Towards the end of the stones will leave obtuse angle and strokes that terminates in the center will end with more acute angles... OR so it seems. In any event longer strokes by nature generally tend to leave convex edge anyway as most people lack the granular control to compensate the fact that as the strokes move away form you, the angle tends to be higher..

Have a go and fun with it. I didnt destroy the Mike Davis Deba. I had fun with it.

HAve fun adn Stay sharp....
RGds
D