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Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 12:58 PM
http://blue-knives.com/products2.html

Do I see Bob Kramer influence here? :) Or should it be called a budged Kramer-like?

JohnnyChance
11-15-2011, 01:05 PM
He's the Seattle version of Joel from Cut Brooklyn. I've been to his website before, I don't think he is that new, just not on the boards. Profile and look of his knives is very Kramer-esque. I'm sure that's not an accident.

wsfarrell
11-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Interesting that he photoshops the same gorgeous ash or ironwood handle onto all the knives. I'm guessing the handle you get won't remotely resemble these.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 01:09 PM
His first link is to Kramer site. I find it mildly amusing. :)
Work looks clean. Would be my pick over CB.

His damascus looks very much like Bob's plus it's the same patter on all knives, so it's photoshoped. Wow, I didn't know that can be done.

M

tgraypots
11-15-2011, 01:42 PM
Dig a little deeper. He has a degree in design from Rhode Island School of Design, and I think he apprenticed with Kramer. He has been at this for a while. I do like the pics of his knives, having never seen them up close, but am not too crazy about the photoshopped handles. I can see where a degree in design would influence his graphics and web site though. I'd love to have the nakiri in straight carbon.

bprescot
11-15-2011, 02:00 PM
I think Marko might be right in that the damascus on those blades is also photoshopped. Looks like you have the exact same patterns in each series. Makes me a bit cautious when handles and blades appear to be photoshopped. I'm sure the profiles are all legit, but it doesn't appear that all of those are real knives. That's worrisome.

Craig
11-15-2011, 02:11 PM
I will say that I like the profiles just fine from what I can see, which admittedly isn't a ton, and if he can produce handles like that and damascus like that with a reasonable level of F&F, they'd be lovely knives. It's also neat that he links you right to his source for handle materials and invites you to pick yours out from there.

Larrin
11-15-2011, 02:14 PM
Yet another knifemaker who doesn't understand a lick of metallurgy, but doesn't mind pretending that he does:



Stainless steels are steel alloys that contain a large amount (+12%) of chromium. Chromium prevents the steel from rusting but significantly degrades edge holding capabilities of the steel. All steels are composed of grains of the various alloying elements, the relatively large size of chromium results in a blade that will quickly dull and be very difficult to re-sharpen.

52100 steel forms a blade composed of very small grains, enabling it to take a much finer edge, hold it longer, and then re-sharpen very quickly. In addition, the fine grain structure of 52100 makes it tougher than many other steels used in knives. The weakest points of any steel structure are the bonds between the grains, a finer grain structure means that stress it spread across many more of these bonds than in steels containing larger alloying elements such as chromium.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 02:15 PM
I think Marko might be right in that the damascus on those blades is also photoshopped. Looks like you have the exact same patterns in each series. Makes me a bit cautious when handles and blades appear to be photoshopped. I'm sure the profiles are all legit, but it doesn't appear that all of those are real knives. That's worrisome.

I am not busting anybody chops here, on the contrary, probably unintentionally helping to pick a customer or two. :) I stumbled on a site and found it mildly amusing. Could not help but think Kramer knives the moment I saw it.

As having a degree in design is concerned, well, knives are pretty simple to design (even I can :) ) and I would take an advice from a pro chef over a designer's advice any time. Think Chroma knives.



M

PS: I didn't interpret it that way, Ben -

bprescot
11-15-2011, 02:20 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Marko was getting on anyone. The "worrisome" comment is entirely my own sentiment and no one else's. If you have a site to showcase your work and choose to show photoshopped images I have to ask why? But that's just me and your mileage may vary. Never seen one of these in person. They could be great! But all I have to go on right now is a website with, what looks like, "fake" knives. Doesn't exactly inspire me to take a chance, you know?

ThEoRy
11-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I find it funny that he has an entire santoku "line". Hahahaha a whole line dedicated to a much hated shape among those in the know. Add to that the fact his knives are very Krameresque and we know who his target market is. Stupid average Joe/Jane. "Oooooh santoku that means it's Japanese!!!" lol

SpikeC
11-15-2011, 05:03 PM
Ya, a santoku slicer!

Lefty
11-15-2011, 05:38 PM
I saw his stuff on etsy a while back (a year or so?) and found them to look really nice, but the price seemed off for a guy I knew nothing about. I'd love to give or a try sometime, actually.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 05:59 PM
Ya, a santoku slicer!

It caught my eye too.

M

ThEoRy
11-15-2011, 06:05 PM
It caught my eye too.

M

It's a gimmick, and he's selling to people who fall for gimmicks.

ajhuff
11-15-2011, 06:14 PM
Yet another knifemaker who doesn't understand a lick of metallurgy, but doesn't mind pretending that he does:

The biggest problem I've had with being a metallurgist is that everyone else thinks they are one too. I'm not sure any other engineering discipline suffers this but I'm dumbfounded as to why.

-AJ

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 06:18 PM
Lol, but you can see a logic here. How many people know what Meiji is or have heard a word? I am sure Santoku sounds more familiar.

What I am wondering about if whether pics on the site are pics of actual knives or are computer generated. For one, they all have same handle material and damascus pattern. Secondly, they look awfully similar to Bob knives' profiles, particularly, the Santoku Line. Did I say that? Damn, Meiji line!

So, Photoshop wizards here, is it possible to lift knife shapes from Bob Kramer site, tweak them a bit (to account for a different handle), and then fill them with a wood patter and damascus steel pattern?

M

Lefty
11-15-2011, 06:28 PM
I think we should take it easy on the guy. His knives look good, albeit photoshopped on his site, and we haven't tried one of them to say whether or not he is legit. Sure his "santoku" line is kind of cheesy in regards to the naming, but he's just using a name that most people might find intriguing. It's marketing! Sure, he missing the mark with us knuts, but I for one would love to try one, and until I have reason to do otherwise, will give him the benefit of the doubt.
Marko, i think your intentions were good, but we seem to like to jump on people sometimes. What happened to this place?

EdipisReks
11-15-2011, 06:32 PM
So, Photoshop wizards here, is it possible to lift knife shapes from Bob Kramer site, tweak them a bit (to account for a different handle), and then fill them with a wood patter and damascus steel pattern?

M

absolutely.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 06:40 PM
Okay, this was meant to make light of it, so sorry it is interpreted differently.
I salute everybody who makes things with their hands and I noted before that the workmanship wasn't bad. Just thought it was funny how close the resemblance was, but it is up to Bob to mind it or not.

M

Eamon Burke
11-15-2011, 07:15 PM
Pass.

rulesnut
11-15-2011, 07:41 PM
http://www.rulesnut.com/blueknives.png

Pretty obvious.

Vertigo
11-15-2011, 07:44 PM
^^^

Yikes! ROFL!

RRLOVER
11-15-2011, 07:49 PM
I don't think his prices are out of line,I do find the pics to be very odd.

Pensacola Tiger
11-15-2011, 08:00 PM
Note that he doesn't make his own damascus, not that it matters.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 08:01 PM
Damascus in pics looks very much like Bob's random damascus.

add
11-15-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't think his prices are out of line,I do find the pics to be very odd.

Respectfully, based on what exactly?

RRLOVER
11-15-2011, 09:18 PM
Respectfully, based on what exactly?

Based on me buying and selling a lot of knives.Also I know what all of the "new" kitchen knife makers are charging and he is right in line.I have no idea if they are worth the price but it 425 for a 10" blade does not seem that much.

HHH Knives
11-15-2011, 09:26 PM
Im not normally one to pile on, he may very well make killer knives? His site is very clean and well done. It would serve him well to put some actual pictures of knives he made on there for our viewing pleasure. Also did anyone catch that he is not making his damascus or forging his blades like Bob does. :)

add
11-15-2011, 10:01 PM
Based on me buying and selling a lot of knives.Also I know what all of the "new" kitchen knife makers are charging and he is right in line.I have no idea if they are worth the price but it 425 for a 10" blade does not seem that much.

So, based on internet pics and a new (relatively) maker then?

Yes, the market will bare, but worth...? Another matter completely.

Perhaps he is or has been an apprentice to Kramer... otherwise and imho, his bonafides don't command anything near those prices. Particularly with PS images (FLAG!).

Design degree, har har... wonder how Bob Loveless, Heron, Dozier, (et all) could even think of stepping up to a grinder without that on their resume? :lol2:

Andrew H
11-15-2011, 10:04 PM
So, based on internet pics and a new (relatively) maker then?

Yes, the market will bare, but worth...? Another matter completely.

Perhaps he is or has been an apprentice to Kramer... otherwise and imho, his bonafides don't command anything near those prices. Particularly with PS images (FLAG!).

Design degree, har har... wonder how Bob Loveless, Heron, Dozier, (et all) could even think of stepping up to a grinder without that on their resume? :lol2:

I think Mario was just pointing out that his prices seem to be in the same price range as many other "new" or "emerging" makers. To be fair, based on his description of the knives and steel choice they sound pretty good.

SpikeC
11-15-2011, 10:09 PM
Just out of curiosity, does he do his own HT?

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 10:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, does he do his own HT?

He has an oven. Not sure if the pliers of sorts that he seems to be using is a better choice than tongs (you are handling steel that is in 1500-1550F range and you need to quench it fast), but people make do with what they have.

http://blue-knives.com/aa_images/heat.jpg

Eamon Burke
11-15-2011, 10:32 PM
LOL vice grips. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, huh?

RRLOVER
11-15-2011, 10:32 PM
So, based on internet pics and a new (relatively) maker then?

Yes, the market will bare, but worth...? Another matter completely.

Perhaps he is or has been an apprentice to Kramer... otherwise and imho, his bonafides don't command anything near those prices. Particularly with PS images (FLAG!).

Design degree, har har... wonder how Bob Loveless, Heron, Dozier, (et all) could even think of stepping up to a grinder without that on their resume? :lol2:



I am not commenting on the quality of his blades,just the price.Since I paid $1500 for a 52100 kramer a $425 knock off might not be a bad deal.

bprescot
11-15-2011, 10:39 PM
I am not commenting on the quality of his blades,just the price.Since I paid $1500 for a 52100 kramer a $425 knock off might not be a bad deal.

Sure, but you can get the licensed knock off in 52100 from SLT for $350...

RRLOVER
11-15-2011, 10:48 PM
Sure, but you can get the licensed knock off in 52100 from SLT for $350...

That is a mass produced knife,this guy is hand making them.Could you explain your comparison?

RRLOVER
11-15-2011, 10:52 PM
LOL vice grips. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, huh?

If you love what you are doing:thumbsup:I can feel his pain:lol2:

Delbert Ealy
11-15-2011, 11:41 PM
LOL vice grips. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, huh?

For guys that don't forge its pretty standard for vise grips or channel locks. Those are both standard tools in the knife shop anyway. I think I have at least 4 pr of vise grips. There are very few standardized tools in the knifemaking industry, the 2 x 72 grinder seems to be one of the very few, but there are knifemakers without one. Most of knifemaking is doing what you gotta do. I wish there were standards like other industries, other than a "godd ole boys club"
Del

ajhuff
11-15-2011, 11:55 PM
For guys that don't forge its pretty standard for vise grips or channel locks. Those are both standard tools in the knife shop anyway. I think I have at least 4 pr of vise grips. There are very few standardized tools in the knifemaking industry, the 2 x 72 grinder seems to be one of the very few, but there are knifemakers without one. Most of knifemaking is doing what you gotta do. I wish there were standards like other industries, other than a "godd ole boys club"
Del

+1 I'm not a knife maker but I know A LOT about high temps and handling hot metal.

-AJ

JohnnyChance
11-16-2011, 03:13 AM
Some non (less?) photoshopped pictures.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YW-L0hpK7bM/TsNznCHaUPI/AAAAAAAABOA/taH3YSPyxE8/s1200/blue1.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7GbljTPxX0I/TsNznDz9_jI/AAAAAAAABOE/8_88wYjqV24/s1200/blue2.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-v59AAc4052Q/TsNznJfbbqI/AAAAAAAABOQ/TSGw8VJUeRg/s1200/blue3.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lYNSDsPUlPM/TsNznoJ1CSI/AAAAAAAABOU/a2yErTaQioI/s1200/blue4.jpg

I wonder if he has noticed all the traffic coming to him from this site yet.

Craig
11-16-2011, 09:14 AM
I'll say it: Those are gorgeous knives. Clearly modelled after Kramer's, but since Kramer is pretty much my (the?) high-water mark for the industry, I hardly feel like that's an insult.

wsfarrell
11-16-2011, 10:49 AM
I'll say it: Those are gorgeous knives. Clearly modelled after Kramer's, but since Kramer is pretty much my (the?) high-water mark for the industry, I hardly feel like that's an insult.

+1

Ray Laconico, a knifemaker who sells at bladeforums.com, is another guy with a design background. His knives are dead simple, but very very pleasing and ultra clean in execution.

stevenStefano
11-16-2011, 11:25 AM
If the knives are what he says they are, these knives could sell very well I think. To be honest though, would anyone buy a knife based on Photoshop images and a few not very clear photos? Surely if he sells any people would be asking for photos before they buy? It is a little odd and it would be pretty cool if they are what the site says they are

JMJones
11-16-2011, 11:44 AM
I HT and quench with vise grips all the time. I have tongs that would do but prefer the vise grips for the positive feel and easier manipulation of the blade for agitating in the quench. I also wear a welding glove. From my little experiance with Bob, he seems like a very mindfull and natural teacher. If this guy was an appretice for any lenght of time and left on good terms, I would expect his knives to be very good.

Kyle
11-16-2011, 12:09 PM
If the knives are what he says they are, these knives could sell very well I think. To be honest though, would anyone buy a knife based on Photoshop images and a few not very clear photos? Surely if he sells any people would be asking for photos before they buy? It is a little odd and it would be pretty cool if they are what the site says they are

I'm really not sure he's trying to sell to the custom knife knut crowd, it kinda seems like he wants to cater to the Williams Sonoma more money than sense crowd. It just seems like he's trying to give everything the uniform appearance of a set to appeal to people that think knives should match.

JohnnyChance
11-16-2011, 12:24 PM
Also, how did this thread make it this long without THIS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tbIEwIwYz-c

You know you love it.

heirkb
11-16-2011, 01:17 PM
Wow...that song is making me reconsider a piece I've been writing about hip-hop...

JohnnyChance
11-17-2011, 01:41 AM
Wow...that song is making me reconsider a piece I've been writing about hip-hop...

Haha, don't worry, I think you can leave that out and nobody would mind.

ThEoRy
11-17-2011, 10:31 AM
Wow...that song is making me reconsider a piece I've been writing about hip-hop...

That song has absolutely nothing to do with hip hop.

If you want or need to know what real hip hop is just ask me. I'm not talking about the crap on the radio either. Real artists are out there.

JohnnyChance
11-17-2011, 10:51 AM
Haha, don't worry, heirkb knows real hip hop.

heirkb
11-17-2011, 03:31 PM
Haha, yea, don't worry that I'm thinking they're actually hip hop. I just know that among the many things they were marketed as/imitating (pop, rock, etc.), they were drawing on supposed "hip hop" styles and flavors. Ever seen any of the old school hip hop movies/documentaries/music videos? Those kids are drawing somewhat from those styles--as well as from other styles.

Anyways, I am writing something about hip hop and racial discourse. The general thrust is that it's historically inaccurate and an exclusionary/effacing political move to argue that hip hop is a "black youth culture" that has been stolen by non-black performers, enthusiasts, etc. This is a perspective that I saw in many rappers' and scholars' works (and not in many others', I know). It's hard to capture the whole scope of the argument in one sentence, but I think I've already derailed the thread enough.

The joke in my earlier post was that not even I could get myself to say that those kids aren't just straight up cultural thieves.

My apologies for the off-topic posts. I have too much of a tendency towards doing that on forums for some reason, even though I know it's bad manners.