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View Full Version : The Ban of Darkhoek **Update post 163***



oivind_dahle
11-15-2011, 03:01 PM
Well, as a few of you know Im not impressed about how this forum is run. Seams that this site has become a one man show and store, where all business must go to one person. When I joined, the vision was that it should be a place to take care of the small business man, but as time went by this site does not take care of everyone.

I know my opinion is of no importance to most here, so you all might be happy if Im banned to.

Bill Burke, Pierre Rodrigues, Marko: If I get banned our project will go through mail.

Can I get some feedback on this one?
http://***********************/2011/11/banned-from-kitchenknifeforumscom.html


I am one of those that think Darkhoek got something to teach us all with his great post, knowledge and great WIPs. To bad a fantastic member like that get banned from a site like this. I though this was a forum to share our passion and knowledge....

Merry x-mas btw

macmiddlebrooks
11-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Sad :(

bprescot
11-15-2011, 03:30 PM
Wait, what? That's crazy. I'm sure that must have been a mistake or misunderstanding. Given the number of people that are doing handles or blades as Hobbyists and then being able to use the Hobbyist site to sell in forum, I'm just not sure that a WIP thread is truly reason for a ban...

Or is it that DH took the Shige restore job? Given that nearly everyone in thread agreed that's where it should go, I'm not sure that's really a good reason either. Explanation please?

El Pescador
11-15-2011, 03:36 PM
You make it seem as this came out of nowhere, and I doubt this is the case. Marko made the jump from member to vendor. As I remember it is reasonable to become a vendor. I"m amazed that Harald hasn't chosen to go this route.

Oivind, have you contacted Dave via PM or email to get a better idea as to what occurred?

Pesky

chazmtb
11-15-2011, 03:39 PM
I don't know the whole story behind this, but it seems that to be fair to all the paying vendors, if you profit from the use of the forum, in any significant way, you should be a paying vendor. It is only fair. Many here have made the move.

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 03:41 PM
I suggest a one-time warning before a ban. Sometimes, these things can happen unintentionally. I understand, this forum has rules and they posted publicly, but stuff happens. I hope you guys (mods and Dave) show some flexibility.
Vendors, not vendors, but we also have a community here so that needs to be taken in consideration as well.

M

bprescot
11-15-2011, 03:56 PM
I guess I get that. But it seems like a lot of people are now getting into knives and handles and the like. The line between vendor and hobbyist seems a bit blurry. If I see a hobbyist doing some cool stuff and ask him to make me one too, are they now a vendor? Or is it only if they try to actively sell?

Dave Martell
11-15-2011, 04:03 PM
Oivind, once again you show poor form in how you deal with things but non the less I'll address your concerns.

DH has been temporarily banned for a period of 30 days starting today.

According to DH's blog he states that he doesn't understand why he has been banned and did nothing to warrant this however this is not truthful. DH was spoken to about advertising for his business through his blog signature link and homepage links and promised me that he wasn't doing business so I allowed him to continue posting the sig link. I took him for his word. Since then he has removed his signature link (or never re-posted it) to his blog himself. We had a very lengthy PM about this matter and I made the other moderators aware of this issue.

Today he posted images (within a thread that he started in the Kitchen Knife forum) of a knife that he finihsed working on for another individual with a noter that he wasn't sure if this was the correct way/place to post them. The fact is that he made mention that they were done for another person and that he does accept business and he posted even knowing the rules here.

My choice here was to either once again explain to him the rules of the site or give him some time off to think about it.

The thing is here that I'm not a policeman nor do I want to be one but it's a fact that many knifemakers and knife customizers have been taking advantage of this site and making me play one. You folks have absolutely no idea the level to which this type of crap goes on and how I'm forced to deal with it all of the time. Let's just say that there's a hell of a lot more takers than givers showing up here.

The rules are laid out to follow the exact mission to which this forum was begun for. There has been no change in what we're doing here except that we've had to implement rules upon rules upon rules because of people taking advantage. If it were up to me it would have remained the same as it was day #1 but other people have made that impossible.

As for this place being a one man show/store, Oivind, that's pretty low. Maybe the other 16 vendors might disagree with you on that.

Speaking of the vendors here, they are one of the main reasons why I've taken a stand against people advertising freely. The pay a fee to have the right to advertise here and this fee (almost) pays for the monthly costs to run the site. I aim to protect the rights that they pay for.

On the issue of keeping other knifemakers/vendors out of here I have another consideration besides the paying vendors and that is to protect the membership from scammers, users, and kitchen knife shaped objects. Most of us know what happened to KF when the leeches were allowed in and I don't intend to repeat the mistakes that were made there.

Besides those two issues, there is no hidden agenda or reasons to keep other knifemaker/vendors out of here. I think the fact that I've allowed and even invited many of the vendors here that are direct competition to my business should speak volumes to my character and what I'm trying to do here.

On you being banned for speaking out here in this thread Oivind, that won't happen unless you go all crazy or something and start cursing us out or something like that. Besides, if we were looking to ban you it would have been done already for that horsesh*t move you pulled by threatening to take your knife back during the BB donation.

So back on topic, DH is banned for 30 days, and when that time is up we welcome him back. He's been a valuable member of the community and we hope that this isn't going to be something that we have happen again.

Now I look forward to wasting another evening dealing with this crap....

Dave

Marko Tsourkan
11-15-2011, 04:05 PM
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying this, Dave -

bprescot
11-15-2011, 04:18 PM
Ah. I didn't realize DH had a full-fledged side-business. Thought he was just an avid hobbyist. Seems clear and fair to me! If I were he I'd just become a vendor. Not really sure why he hasn't if this is a official or semi-official thing for him:scratchhead:

The BoardSMITH
11-15-2011, 04:24 PM
Rules are rules and I appreciate Daves protection of the vendors who play by the rules. BTW The vendor fee is very reasonable as compared to other sites. Hopefully Dave won't have to increase it to cover his expenses.

Salty dog
11-15-2011, 04:26 PM
I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.

mainaman
11-15-2011, 04:30 PM
You make it seem as this came out of nowhere, and I doubt this is the case.

Pesky
So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.

chazmtb
11-15-2011, 04:36 PM
So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.

I don't think that is the case, but I think that it is a matter of repeated patterns of self promotion, and politely being reminded of the rules.

Dave Martell
11-15-2011, 05:06 PM
I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.


W.T.F?

If this site is headed in the wrong direction it's because of people like yourself pushing it that way. Case in point - you post on another site that you won't ever post here again yet days later you show here up to sell your knives. What's that about? Another user....

Dave Martell
11-15-2011, 05:07 PM
So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.


I don't think that is the case, but I think that it is a matter of repeated patterns of self promotion, and politely being reminded of the rules.


Exactly Bao

SpikeC
11-15-2011, 05:18 PM
I've posted a lot of stuff that I have made and I'm still here. I don't see the problem with following the guidelines here.
It seems to me that Salty has had a very negative attitude about this site from the very beginning.

mr drinky
11-15-2011, 05:39 PM
Well, I too like darkhoek's input and love seeing his work, but I also look at it from the other direction. A lot of forums don't allow any type of self-promotion of personal sites (blogs, commercial etc.) and posting links to your site is a big no-no and will usually lead to a PM and post deletion. The way this site is set up with a commercial/vendor side, it almost makes sense to eliminate links to personal sites altogether (in the signature line and posts). Let people link to their blogs in their profile or maybe have a blogroll thread where people can have a one-time blog promotion post. But after that, resign yourself to not being able to promote your knife work, writing, pictures, or food porn -- unless you pay to be a vendor that is.

k.

Peco
11-15-2011, 06:51 PM
Speaking of the vendors here, they are one of the main reasons why I've taken a stand against people advertising freely. The pay a fee to have the right to advertise here and this fee (almost) pays for the monthly costs to run the site. I aim to protect the rights that they pay for.

Where do you guys buy your hosting? I have a forum which is free to use (not kniferelated!!!) and I have + 500 members. No one pays any fees (vendor, donations, supporting membership) and my exspence per year is less than $50. I really have a hard time understanding why your vendors, newly added donation button and supported memberships should not give any profit?

Dave Martell
11-15-2011, 06:57 PM
Where do you guys buy your hosting? I have a forum which is free to use (not kniferelated!!!) and I have + 500 members. No one pays any fees (vendor, donations, supporting membership) and my exspence per year is less than $50. I really have a hard time understanding why your vendors, newly added donation button and supported memberships should not give any profit?


This forum costs a LOT more than you're paying. The software licensing alone was about 8x that. I can assure you that there's no profit being generated by this site.

Vertigo
11-15-2011, 07:32 PM
Haha, yeah vBulletin is a ***** when it comes to the license. I'm assuming you sprung for the pro setup and install too, which easily puts your initial costs between $400 and $500.

Beyond that though, we only serve up 2100 or so unique visitors a month on BBS software, the bandwidth overhead shouldn't be too bad. If you're getting gouged Dave, shoot me a PM and I'll happily get you set up on something more affordable.

Eamon Burke
11-15-2011, 08:09 PM
Hey, there's no ads here. There's no picking between whether or not the vendors here are selling shyte. There is no stress for people who have a business to run, unless they are trying to advertise without paying.

I have a business myself that I don't advertise here because I haven't paid. It's really simple--here you are just a member, until you pay the fee to be a vendor. Then you are a vendor, and get your own little corner and can do whatever regarding your business. Mr. Haas just posted some prop knife he made an a metorite knife because it is of interest and shows his skills. He does a WIP like every fortnight. He paid one time, and has a happy little vendor life.

Personally, I am happy WIP are allowed, since that is one of the great things about this site, but I do prefer that the rules lean on justice over mercy. A "hobby" can turn into a year long backorder in not so long. IIRC, Fish was selling handles in like 20 minutes back in the day.

Pensacola Tiger
11-15-2011, 08:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, what does a vendor pay per year?

sudsy9977
11-15-2011, 09:49 PM
I gotta just add a double *** towards Scott.....Ryan

sudsy9977
11-15-2011, 09:50 PM
Dave whats up....i can't type w....t....f.....haha....ryan

Chef Niloc
11-15-2011, 09:59 PM
I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.

Too bad I would have loved to read that post

UglyJoe
11-15-2011, 10:13 PM
I don't see the problem. If DH is taking money for work, then posting a thread showing said work, this is advertising. You don't have to come out and say "send me your knife!" for it to be advertising. Imagine one of the chef's here posting a bunch of videos of food for their restaurant, telling us how great his specials are now and mention that he's open for business but never out and out saying "Come eat here!". It would still be advertising. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough.

I love DH work, and I love his WIP threads, but if he is taking work from other forum members and posting the results of said work, it's advertising. I hope that DH isn't hurt by this and I hope that he decides to becoming a supporting vendor... I think it would be great!

Salty dog
11-15-2011, 11:01 PM
W.T.F?

If this site is headed in the wrong direction it's because of people like yourself pushing it that way. Case in point - you post on another site that you won't ever post here again yet days later you show here up to sell your knives. What's that about? Another user....

To be honest I thought I'd hang around long enough to sell some knives. But that just doesn't seem right. So I won't.

Rather than make a stir I'll go silently into the night.

I do wish you the best. I truely believe your motives are genuine.

SpikeC
11-15-2011, 11:07 PM
There must be something that is not generally known, because this makes no sense to me.

ecchef
11-16-2011, 05:07 AM
To be honest I thought I'd hang around long enough to sell some knives.. .

Apparently, not the depth of participation some here expected. :dontknow:

Lefty
11-16-2011, 06:37 AM
I'm surprised by all of this and how it's playing out. Harald, Dave and yes, even Scott are all valuable members (and an owner). I've communicated with all three privately and I always take interest in their posts. I have had ZERO problems with any of them, in fact I've only had pleasant experiences with each.
Dave: thanks for setting up and running the forum and contributing as you do. If profit was number one, you woudn't have taught me how to buff scratches out or my blades or answered questions regarding shaping western handles, etc, when you could just as easily suggested I send them to you.
Harald: perhaps signing up as a "Hobbyist Vendor" and only featuring the one piece you are selling per month might be an option(?) I look forward to when/if you can come back.
Scott: haters gonna hate! I hope you change your mind about leaving this forum, as it's become my number one stop and I always go, "ooh, Salty posted something" when I see it on here. Hopefully I can score that yanagi off of you sometime ;) Thanks for the well wisheswhen you found out I was now a member of the "international smoke-eaters guild". I know where to find you if you don't come back here.
We're all passionate about our hobby and maybe we get a bit too excited at times. I think we need a group bowling event or maybe some paintball to boost the morale....

ecchef
11-16-2011, 08:49 AM
Lefty, nothing personal but "haters gonna hate" (a truly repugnant phrase anyway) is hardly the issue here. There have been no vitriolic attacks against anyone, and it's unlikely there will be.
I feel that this forum is very good at self-policing any "cult of personality" issues, and that the moderators actually moderate and don't dictate.
It's a "gentleman's" arena, and I applaud that.

tk59
11-16-2011, 12:21 PM
Wow. I'm gone for a day and this happens. Well, I hope DH sees fit to participate again when his ban is up.

The whole vendor thing makes me cringe, in general. It's tough to speak honestly about knives that are made by people that are paying for this forum to exist and have thier livelihoods linked to it. If you buy a knife from one of the vendors here and it turns out to be a POS, are you gonna put an honest evaluation on the board? I know of several people that have such a knife and have failed to post critical comments. They just put up with the knife or sell it somebody that doesn't know better. I'm sure there are many more. That is ******** that everyone should be wary of, imo. Maybe I should have posted this in the "concerns" section.

Dave Martell
11-16-2011, 01:23 PM
Something that's been brought to my attention is that there seems to be a notion that Harald was banned in part because of another member comparing his work with Stefan and Marko's work, etc. I'd like to clear this up by saying that the banning has nothing at all to do with that nor does it have anything at all to do with that Shigefusa thread where this statement was made. What Harald and other members were doing there was never moderated, thought about, nor discussed at all.

The reason for the banning was laid out in my original post within this thread. There is nothing more to it than that. See http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?3673-The-Ban-of-Darkhoek&p=57042&viewfull=1#post57042

heirkb
11-16-2011, 02:14 PM
...The fact is that he made mention that they were done for another person and that he does accept business and he posted even knowing the rules here...


Dave, I have no personal beef with you. You've been great to work with and talk with.

Regardless, this sentence raises some issues/questions for me. Did Harald explicitly mention in his thread that he accepts business or did you extrapolate that from his post just because he said it was done for someone else? I've seen people who are not vendors post things and make reference to the fact that the item(s) in the thread is made for someone/being shipped out soon. Those seem to be fine and haven't resulted in bans. If Harald did not ever explicitly say something like, "I'm doing this knife for someone who paid me and I accept payment for work that you others might need done," then I don't see how his post justifies a ban. Just asking for a little clarification.

Dave Martell
11-16-2011, 02:20 PM
To me the question is did he post about business or not. This is relevant based on our previous discussions about him not doing so. Whether or not he admits that he did doesn't mean that he didn't do it.

Regarding others in similar situations, many have been talked to and have made changes without coming to the point of being banned.

All people make mistakes but not everybody repeats them over and over.

Dave Martell
11-16-2011, 02:36 PM
Something else to think about....

Had the thread that Harald posted been posted by his customer (the knife owner) then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm not saying that he should have solicited the knife's owner to make such a post but rather the difference between Harald himself doing so versus the owner is a distinction worth noting.

The distinction is that Harald likely received payment for the services he performed and should not be showing his work as this will likely lead to him garnering more work. Even if he did not receive payment on this particular job he is still advertising a service that can turn into future business. Since Harald has mentioned to me that he may go pro and become a vendor in the future I think I'm not out of line to then assume this is what will happen.

tk59
11-16-2011, 05:56 PM
Sounds complicated...

RRLOVER
11-16-2011, 09:07 PM
Wow. I'm gone for a day and this happens. Well, I hope DH sees fit to participate again when his ban is up.

The whole vendor thing makes me cringe, in general. It's tough to speak honestly about knives that are made by people that are paying for this forum to exist and have thier livelihoods linked to it. If you buy a knife from one of the vendors here and it turns out to be a POS, are you gonna put an honest evaluation on the board? I know of several people that have such a knife and have failed to post critical comments. They just put up with the knife or sell it somebody that doesn't know better. I'm sure there are many more. That is ******** that everyone should be wary of, imo. Maybe I should have posted this in the "concerns" section.

This rings so true TK!!!!! Sorry about DH but the rules are the rules.

Schtoo
11-21-2011, 08:43 PM
Where do you guys buy your hosting? I have a forum which is free to use (not kniferelated!!!) and I have + 500 members. No one pays any fees (vendor, donations, supporting membership) and my exspence per year is less than $50. I really have a hard time understanding why your vendors, newly added donation button and supported memberships should not give any profit?

Hosting costs $50, well and good. I used to pay that much for hosting myself.

Except that when they kill your site (forum, meh. Commercial, disaster!), won't honour their uptime guarantee, are generally pretty poor to deal with, etc, etc. What did I expect? I got what I paid for!

My current hosting costs a LOT more than $50 a year, plus all the other bits and pieces on top of it (software needed, and it needs to be paid for in some cases) and the costs do add up.

Never mind the amount of time needed to keep things running smoothly, or even a reasonable facsimile of it. Time is money. As often as it's repeated, you can't really grasp how much time actually costs until you hang out your own shingle. In a one man (person?) show, time is the most valuable commodity you have, and it's worth it's weight in gold. To spend it running a forum like this, I'd hope the forum not only pays for itself but also makes a tidy little sum after the fact and that Dave takes that little bit of gold and puts it to good use.

Not only that, those who are putting up the cash to be able to hang their own shingle here should be fully able to 'get their money back' on their investment, several times over. That's the whole idea of advertising, you spend a little money, generate interest in your stuff, sells lots of stuff and make more money (after everything is done) than you put out there in advertising.


So says I, who needs to get back to work and is not silly enough to take on running a forum.

(Sorry Dave, I think you're nuts!)

Stu.

Dave Martell
11-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Harald's ban has been reduced to 10 days and will be up tomorrow. I've sent him an email explaining this and welcoming him back. This decision was made because I feel some responsibility in this matter. Even though I had sent PM's to Harald I can reflect and see that he didn't receive the message contained. I can also see how the volume of problems I've had in similar matters (with other members) in such a short period of time added a great amount of frustration and short temperedness to the way in which I handled this matter with him. Harald was still wrong and would be today again if this happened right now but today looking at this with different glasses on I would ultimately handle it differently.

Some good has come of this....we've formed a new larger moderator team, made some policy changes, and will soon be growing and improving the site for the future.

I'm stating all of this in public so that Harald can (hopefully) feel welcome to come back and resume his place within the community. I'd like to chaulk this up to a misunderstanding in unfortunate events and move past it having learned something from it.

Dave

Eamon Burke
11-23-2011, 04:38 PM
That's big of you, Dave.

Harald, Let's see some handles!

PierreRodrigue
11-23-2011, 05:26 PM
Well spoken Dave. I like where things are going. Welcome back Harald!

riverie
11-23-2011, 09:44 PM
welcome back Harald !!!

SpikeC
11-23-2011, 10:25 PM
Very cool move, Dave, thanks!
And welcome back, Harald!

Lefty
11-24-2011, 05:24 AM
Yayyy! Can't wait to see Harald back here, posting up a storm, in order to make up for lost time :)
Great choice, Dave!

Mike Davis
11-24-2011, 11:08 AM
Very well put Dave. Welcome back Darkhoek!!

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 07:12 PM
That's big of you, Dave.

Harald, Let's see some handles!

Sorry, new rules. No can do.

DarKHOeK

Eamon Burke
11-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Nah, you totally can!
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?3836-Vendor-Hobbyist-Guidelines

It says right there, you can do a thread and keep it like a gallery, just posting your finished products.

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 07:25 PM
Yayyy! Can't wait to see Harald back here, posting up a storm, in order to make up for lost time :)
Great choice, Dave!

Well, lost time is lost. I have been busy in my shop during my absence, but the new rules prohibit me from showing anything even remotely connected to my craft as this will be defined as advertizing. Unless I pay up the dollars to become either a paying hobbyist or a full blown vendor, I will not be able to show you pics of even my own personal knives as this might tempt you into a shopping frenzy of my handle work. With a production of maybe 4-5 handles and 2-3 sayas per year, this expense will not add upp my bill at all. I had planned some detailed tutorials on wa handle making and blade refurbishment (you remember the small Shig yanagiba...?), but I guess that will not happen.

I am sorry to say that about all the incentive I had for staying around KKF is pretty much gone. I'll hang around to keep informed on an progress and stay connected on PM, but with the new rules I am afraid I will not be able to contribute anything very interesting in KKF without getting banned again.

You know where to find me. (I believe this might get me banned as well....)

DarKHoeK

Dave Martell
11-25-2011, 07:28 PM
That's big of you, Dave.Harald, Let's see some handles!
Sorry, new rules. No can do.DarKHOeKHarald, I have to admit to being disappointed that you've come back from a ban (and our email conversations since) to make this your first post. Also, you've replaced your sig line link to your blog where you show work that you've completed for a fee. This is the same exact post that got you banned from here in the first place.You are heading down the wrong road and causing yourself problems. I'm going to turn this over to the moderator team because if I was to deal with this myself I think you can assume where it would go.I'm sorry that you're showing so little care for the rules here.

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 07:36 PM
Link has been removed. It came up as I logged in and I didn't see it until it was too late. I am sorry for that.

I am not sure what you had expected from this ban. That I paid up happily in addition to being a supporting member? I thought you considered other contributions to be of some value other than the purely monetary.

You say I am going down the wrong road, but that is given that your road is the right one, and I do not agree with that.

The rules are clearer, easier to understand, and that is a good thing, but other than that I do not believe they have changed for the better. Sorry.

DarKHOeK.

Dave Martell
11-25-2011, 07:44 PM
Harald, I'm trying my best to deal with you on this but you seem to have a disconnect from the reality of the situation. The fact is that you charge money for a service that you obtain from posting here on this forum yet you don't want to pay to be able to maintain this privilege that you've been granted for free up to this point. I'm very sorry if I'm not making my point clear enough but after our many PMs, emails, and now with all of the rules we've just brought out I just don't know what else I can offer to help.

Dave Martell
11-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Just look at your sig line now...
Sorry...Link removed to avoid a new ban..Come on....what are you trying to do here?

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 07:50 PM
Nah, you totally can!
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?3836-Vendor-Hobbyist-Guidelines

It says right there, you can do a thread and keep it like a gallery, just posting your finished products.

I could not find anything saying that I can post a gallery of finished products. If I have made the handles or other items in the pictures featured in any gallery, that will be considered advertising as well according to the regulations. So in my position I will loose money if I pay up for a subscription and get banned if I don't. Those are the rules and I cant object to those. They are very clear and understandable. (And if I am wrong about this, they are still not very clear and understandable).

DarKHOeK

Dave Martell
11-25-2011, 07:54 PM
I could not find anything saying that I can post a gallery of finished products. If I have made the handles or other items in the pictures featured in any gallery, that will be considered advertising as well according to the regulations. So in my position I will loose money if I pay up for a subscription and get banned if I don't. Those are the rules and I cant object to those. They are very clear and understandable. (And if I am wrong about this, they are still not very clear and understandable).

DarKHOeK


My daughter is always asking me for dessert before she finishes her dinner. I always respond the same way. I say, "You can have desert if you eat your dinner first. This is your choice though, you don't have to finish your dinner but you won't get dessert unless you do. Remember - this is YOUR choice whether or not you get dessert - I simply set the rules."

This is the same thing in your case Harald, you don't have to join as a hobbyist and you don;t have to get yourself banned for posting pictures of your finished work. The choice to do what YOU chose to do here is in YOUR hands....I simply set the rules.

SpikeC
11-25-2011, 08:14 PM
I'm a little confused here. What are the ramifications of my posting pics of the knife that I am currently working on? I might very well offer it for sale at some point.

Dave Martell
11-25-2011, 08:18 PM
I'm a little confused here. What are the ramifications of my posting pics of the knife that I am currently working on? I might very well offer it for sale at some point.


If I didn't know your sense of humor. :D

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 08:26 PM
My daughter is always asking me for dessert before she finishes her dinner. I always respond the same way. I say, "You can have desert if you eat your dinner first. This is your choice though, you don't have to finish your dinner but you won't get dessert unless you do. Remember - this is YOUR choice whether or not you get dessert - I simply set the rules."

This is the same thing in your case Harald, you don't have to join as a hobbyist and you don;t have to get yourself banned for posting pictures of your finished work. The choice to do what YOU chose to do here is in YOUR hands....I simply set the rules.

You are of course right, Dave. Your forum, your rules, and I choose how I want to relate to that.

Great visualisation by the way :thumbsup: Problem is that in my case the dessert I have for an incentive is really not enough for eating my dinner. It feels like I have to eat a pile of overcooked liver to have a lousy carrot for dessert. And I am not that fond of liver even if it is perfectly cooked calfs liver. Case is that at my level dessert will never be much more than a carrot and not a tempting creme brulee or home made sherbet or a smooth bavaroise. Apply your rules at home with "my dinner and dessert" and see what happens...:no:

DarKHOeK

Darkhoek
11-25-2011, 09:00 PM
You are of course right, Dave. Your forum, your rules, and I choose how I want to relate to that.

Great visualisation by the way :thumbsup: Problem is that in my case the dessert I have for an incentive is really not enough for eating my dinner. It feels like I have to eat a pile of overcooked liver to have a lousy carrot for dessert. And I am not that fond of liver even if it is perfectly cooked calfs liver. Case is that at my level dessert will never be much more than a carrot and not a tempting creme brulee or home made sherbet or a smooth bavaroise. Apply your rules at home with "my dinner and dessert" and see what happens...:no:

DarKHOeK

I beleive it is fair of me to point out that the lousy dessert is all my responsibility and not Dave's. If I had a production rate of 3-5 handles a month and charged for the time spent and all materials used, I would not mind at all. That would actually make the dessert worth while taking some liver for, but at my rate and level of charging for my work the dessert ends up as carrot.

At the end I have two choises. Make a better dessert and eat my liver or stay with the carrot and leave the table hungry. I really do not have the time nor means to make a better dessert, so I am afraid option number two will be the more likely one.

DarKHoeK

Peco
11-25-2011, 09:01 PM
Money talks and .... seems like that is the KKF rule number 1!

Eamon Burke
11-25-2011, 10:13 PM
I don't understand. You can sell one per month. You can post pics of your project stuff. This is no lousy carrot, it is everything a hobbyist needs.

If you made a run of 3-5 handles a month, and got paid for "time spent" $50 per handle, you'd be able to pay for vendor status in 5 weeks(6 jobs).

This really isn't making sense why this is such a problem. Hell, there's an installment plan!

sudsy9977
11-25-2011, 10:28 PM
Money talks and .... seems like that is the KKF rule number 1!



Nice post peco....so does everyone in denmark work for free?.....that must really suck living there......i don't like your post one bit.....you're saying what?.....this forum is driven to make money?......so Dave should pay for everyone ELSE to make money here......harald and everyone else should just continue to do business on a free forum with no consequences?......id love to hear your response when u get home from working for free.....Ryan

echerub
11-25-2011, 10:42 PM
Harald, Eamon's right - you can make back the cost of the hobbyist fee and then some. We all know you do good work - you aren't going to have much trouble making back the fee. As for having the fee in the first place, the site costs a fair bit to keep up and running smoothly. I'm sure many of us remember what it's like when servers keep mucking up and forums keep going down.

Besides, even if you decide not to go for the hobbyist status, it isn't sensible to say "I shall show my handles or nothing at all!" You contribute more to the community than just handles and photos. We know that you have knowledge and that you have passion. Those things alone mean a lot.

Rotary
11-25-2011, 11:06 PM
I beleive it is fair of me to point out that the lousy dessert is all my responsibility and not Dave's.

It is fair, and rational, of you to point that out. I can't think of many outlets, whether it be web, print, radio, television, etc., that would afford free advertising based upon a very low production/sales volume.

apicius9
11-25-2011, 11:45 PM
This all sounds very familiar, I have been going through this over on KF. For months, I kept bugging them about a hobbyist category because making an occasional handle and paying $700 to be allowed to talk about it did not make any sense. I also pointed out that advertising aims at increasing business, and the way things were (for me at the time), I did not want more business because as a hobbyist I could not even handle the interest I already had. I would have loved to have something like the hobbyist setup that Dave just introduced, and I really find it a fair solution. Harald, I hope that you will come to see it that way, eventually. I really enjoy seeing your work.

Stefan

ajhuff
11-25-2011, 11:54 PM
I think that one major flaw in this whole pissing match is what is the cost of a hobbyist membership? I can understand that for a vendor it is "available upon request" but for a hobbyist, that should right there in the open. Otherwise I think you're splitting hairs on definition and distinction. Hobbyist designation for be one openly posted rate for any hobbyist.

-AJ

SpikeC
11-26-2011, 12:08 AM
For someone who is aiming at becoming a vendor it is one thing, but for someone who is not going to do that, and is never going to do more than a few pieces a year, it is a whole 'nother deal. In order for the fee to work out some volume is necessary, and higher prices.
There is always etsy, I suppose.

Eamon Burke
11-26-2011, 12:19 AM
How much is a hobbyist subscription?

Johnny.B.Good
11-26-2011, 02:03 AM
How much is a hobbyist subscription?

I would like to know the answer to this as well, if only so that I know what we are arguing about. Is it a hundred dollars per year? Several hundred? A thousand or more? Why not just sell an expensive handle or two here and there and make your money back? I would be happy to be one of your monthly customers if you decide to be a "hobbyist" here. That said, I refuse to really take sides in all of this, as I am not a major contributor here (though I have read a great deal here, on FF, and KF), but it disturbs me nonetheless to see a popular figure "banned" over some seemingly trivial issue/dollar amount. If I were "banned" from some place on the internet, I would have a hard time coming back. Pretty emasculating. I hope that bygones can be bygones and that something will be worked out, as I like reading about Harald's projects and they make the forum a more lively/interesting place. The drama between certain figures here and at KF/CFTG/etc. is (from an "outsider's perspective) rather bizarre. For such a small community of people who share such a specialized passion/hobby/business to be so fractured seems childish, bizarre, and sad. I hope it all gets worked out because life is too short and nobody looks good in situations like this.

tk59
11-26-2011, 02:25 AM
:(

Chef Niloc
11-26-2011, 03:06 AM
Seeing that "super moderator " tag is killing me.... Every time I see it I want to kill.... Must have new tag...please

macmiddlebrooks
11-26-2011, 03:14 AM
+1 to ending drama!

I would like to know the answer to this as well, if only so that I know what we are arguing about. Is it a hundred dollars per year? Several hundred? A thousand or more? Why not just sell an expensive handle or two here and there and make your money back? I would be happy to be one of your monthly customers if you decide to be a "hobbyist" here. That said, I refuse to really take sides in all of this, as I am not a major contributor here (though I have read a great deal here, on FF, and KF), but it disturbs me nonetheless to see a popular figure "banned" over some seemingly trivial issue/dollar amount. If I were "banned" from some place on the internet, I would have a hard time coming back. Pretty emasculating. I hope that bygones can be bygones and that something will be worked out, as I like reading about Harald's projects and they make the forum a more lively/interesting place. The drama between certain figures here and at KF/CFTG/etc. is (from an "outsider's perspective) rather bizarre. For such a small community of people who share such a specialized passion/hobby/business to be so fractured seems childish, bizarre, and sad. I hope it all gets worked out because life is too short and nobody looks good in situations like this.

tk59
11-26-2011, 03:14 AM
How do you like super-buddy or uber-mod?

Chef Niloc
11-26-2011, 03:24 AM
How do you like super-buddy or uber-mod?

Super buddy would be cool.... A+#1 god mod would be better then that KF supper mod tag

tk59
11-26-2011, 03:29 AM
:rofl2:

mr drinky
11-26-2011, 03:46 AM
Well, lost time is lost. I have been busy in my shop during my absence, but the new rules prohibit me from showing anything even remotely connected to my craft as this will be defined as advertizing. Unless I pay up the dollars to become either a paying hobbyist or a full blown vendor, I will not be able to show you pics of even my own personal knives as this might tempt you into a shopping frenzy of my handle work. With a production of maybe 4-5 handles and 2-3 sayas per year, this expense will not add upp my bill at all. I had planned some detailed tutorials on wa handle making and blade refurbishment (you remember the small Shig yanagiba...?), but I guess that will not happen.

I am sorry to say that about all the incentive I had for staying around KKF is pretty much gone. I'll hang around to keep informed on an progress and stay connected on PM, but with the new rules I am afraid I will not be able to contribute anything very interesting in KKF without getting banned again.

You know where to find me. (I believe this might get me banned as well....)

DarKHoeK

Yes, the hobbyist subscription price is one thing, but this comment is also a bit insulting IMO. 95% of the forum members have nothing to gain from this forum and only GIVE time to help others and to learn themselves. If one can't show a WIP, recent handle work, or some new blade, it isn't worth participating in the community?? Seriously? Most of us do that every day.

So with the small amount of handle/saya work that Harald does, maybe it isn't worth it to become a hobby/vendor, but there is no doubt that he can still contribute.

However, in addition to the subscription price, I wonder about Harald's work vision (there are two sides). Does he plan on staying at a "4-5 handles and 2-3 sayas per year" guy? Would he take more handles or sayas on if people contacted him through this forum? Does he want more work or to grow his handle craft into a bigger project? If he wants any of these or more knife work in general and is using this forum to display his craft, then it is advertising plain and simple -- and almost no forum would allow it. Let's just be honest, most forums wouldn't even allow the personal links that he (or anyone else) has done in the past. Dave has been very accommodating IMO.

If Harald doesn't plan on expanding his craft into more business and is truly caught in a hobby-vendor catch 22, then I will pay his hobby dues for the next three years. I promise that, and I will wait for the PM. I might even sell a knife to do it.

k.

Dave Martell
11-26-2011, 04:08 AM
Harald has told me in a past PM that he is considering becoming a vendor at some point. He made his intentions very clear.

Dave Martell
11-26-2011, 04:09 AM
Super buddy would be cool.... A+#1 god mod would be better then that KF supper mod tag


:D

Peco
11-26-2011, 05:06 AM
Nice post peco....so does everyone in denmark work for free?.....that must really suck living there......i don't like your post one bit.....you're saying what?.....this forum is driven to make money?......so Dave should pay for everyone ELSE to make money here......harald and everyone else should just continue to do business on a free forum with no consequences?......id love to hear your response when u get home from working for free.....Ryan

Thanks Ryan :D Well, working is one thing ... running a FORUM is another ballgame. Forums are often created because of interest in some kind of subject one would like to discuss and hopefully others would like to particepate as well = a community.

Dave should pay to let others make money??? I already commented on this once ie. supporting membership, donation button etc. If that can't cover the expenses the hosting provided sucks, as simple as that! If time spent is an issue you get moderators to help out. There are a few mods here and I imagine they do it of interest, not to get paid, but of course I could be wrong! If they do it for $ then hmmmm. Work for free ... well if you read one of my previous posts I run a forum that's not kniferelated and it´s free for everybody - I pay the hosting etc. - so yes I work for free in my spare time, I even pay for others to enjoy themselves, what a sport ;)

Harald contributed a lot in here, also on other subjects that his own projects. This have helped lot's of members - I'm sure of that. Thanks for your time and wise answers H :D When I first joined this forum I had the idea that the owner was here to contribute a lot - because of interest. Dave is, from what I hear, one of the best sharpeners in the US. I imagined that he would give a lot of great adwises but after being here for a couple of months I really don't see a whole lot from him. The things I often see though is, now there's a new knife, now you can buy this and that ... or a funny video. In depth answers is very seldom, if at all. So my own conclusion is - it's a business first of all - business = money.

As an American, yes I was born in "gods own country" I'm sometimes blown away and embarrased by the way many people (READ: not all) in the US reacts on different subjects - that goes for my US family too. As an European, yes I got dual citizenship, I'm used to debate without being "bullied" every single time I post a "little" provoking answer/comment. Here we learn from these conversations you call freedom of speach or democracy. Sometimes one has to look within and stop acting like gods, a....... or whatever you would like to call it. There must be a good reason when people start to complain, listen and save your business - great adwise but the way ;)

Suds, being a mod doesn't make you anything you're are not in your real life. Most of your responses are agressive - get a life - or be a help to others - you don't earn any kind of respect the way you act 95% of the time ;) I however am entitled to be sceptic sometimes ... after all I pay your salery by being a supporting member - don't I. As you know ... the customer is always right!

-------------------

I owe a lot of members - vendors and none vendors - a big thanks for all their contribution - especially none venders who are the real backbone of a forum. I learning a lot by your free adwise and great questions/posts. One day when I have the knowledge I will chime in as well - and for free ;)

I want to end this answer by posting this quote from chef niloc:

"I'm finding the focus of "venders " disturbing. Contributing (non monetary )members and the content they add to the sight is what makes a sight, content is king! Other wise the sight becomes QVC. Sad to say that I need to become a knife maker or salsmen to be important around here."

Guess it's not just me and H who think this forum has a lot of flaws - lot's of scilent voices around - food for thought ....

ecchef
11-26-2011, 05:09 AM
"Super Moderator" evokes all the same warm fuzzy feelings as "Gruppenführer". Although, Wile E. Coyote did refer to himself as "Super Genius". :wink:

Colin, I see now that you & I feel the same way about Mr. Stewart. I believe that I'm still banned over there. :rofl2:

Darkhoek
11-26-2011, 05:48 AM
I don't understand. You can sell one per month. You can post pics of your project stuff. This is no lousy carrot, it is everything a hobbyist needs.

If you made a run of 3-5 handles a month, and got paid for "time spent" $50 per handle, you'd be able to pay for vendor status in 5 weeks(6 jobs).

This really isn't making sense why this is such a problem. Hell, there's an installment plan!

Good thinking. Problem is I can't make 3-5 handles per month. I can maybe make 1/2 handle and saya every month due to my other job. As I have tried to explain to you before, this does not add up my bill. So what you say is that if I increase my production by a factor of 6-10 paying the hobbyist fee will be a breeze. I believe I just made my point...

DarKHOek

DarKHOeK

Darkhoek
11-26-2011, 05:58 AM
Harald has told me in a past PM that he is considering becoming a vendor at some point. He made his intentions very clear.

That was back in the days where the Vendor fee was lower than the existing hobbyist fee and I had a job that would allow me to make maybe 1-2 handles a month. My new job and the new fees effectively terminates any hope I had to becoming a vendor without losing money. But these are all my issues. The rules are the rules, I really have no objections to that, other than they are incompatible with my "needs".

DarKHOeK

Peco
11-26-2011, 06:13 AM
If you made a run of 3-5 handles a month, and got paid for "time spent" $50 per handle, you'd be able to pay for vendor status in 5 weeks(6 jobs).

This really isn't making sense why this is such a problem. Hell, there's an installment plan!

Wrong! The customers are the ones who will pay the vendor fee. Vendors have to raise their prices to cover expenses like this - so I'm afraid that the customer is the looser. There's only one winner in this game ...

ecchef
11-26-2011, 07:53 AM
Peco, that's a very astute observation and, in fact, the entire planet accepts that. Please enlighten me...which business entity absorbs all of its operating expenses so that it can maintain a static cost to the consumer/end user? Do your tax rates ever change? How about your utilities costs? Gas is the same price in Denmark as it was in 1983? How about a Big Mac? Anything?
People pay 10 grand for a friggin Kramer. You don't think they'll pay an extra 10 bucks for a handle? Especially a good one? C'mon...seriously.

Marko Tsourkan
11-26-2011, 09:21 AM
I want to offer some perspective here.

I was paying $500 per year on KF for privileges of being a hobbyist, working from my spare bedroom. I had to bargain hard to get this price down from $900 - the price J. Novka (owner) requested. My rate of production was similar to Harald's. It was a lot of money, but it was important for me to continue practicing, so I accepted it.

Right now I have an expense of about $1000 per month in shop rent, utilities, cost of belts and tools. I have been working on developing a product for months now, and I am lucky if what I have made and sold (mostly old customization orders and some of my Japanese knives) has covered overhead cost, most of the time it did not. Value of my time is not included in this calculation.

The point I am making here is there is cost and risk to everything, and one has to accept it if you want to pursue your passions. This forum offers flexibility for hobbyists other didn't at a cost that is far from unreasonable.

Another thing one has to accept, when you participate in a public forum, your posts become public information that you have no control over it. We all have done it on other forums for years, and many got burned. But it is just the way it is. I think Harald has it better than many of us - most of his content is off the forum (on the blog).

So, let's stop this drama and come to senses. I think it's very unproductive to say things like "money talks" by somebody who is a beneficiary of free information. I yet to meet a single person who had to pay for a free advice here and most of it is a quality advice.

And lastly, there is no one member who is larger than the community. Not even Dave.

M

Peco
11-26-2011, 09:34 AM
People pay 10 grand for a friggin Kramer. You don't think they'll pay an extra 10 bucks for a handle? Especially a good one? C'mon...seriously.

10K for a Kramer - well not me lol. Of course people will pay an extra $10 for a good handle or??? Think I read several threads about people being on a budget, especially in these times. That said, I was also thinking in terms of the hobbyist who does work because he enjoy what he's doing and maybe don't have the funds/income/time to massproduce/customers to pay for vendor rights. I'm sure H have the funds for this but why pay for something you will lose on ... he said he didn't have time.

We all read the post about Øyvinds shig and the reaction problems involved. H, did a great article that many of the guys have read and learned from. H, spent time ... even answering some of my stupid questions and probably from others too - without earning a single dime. He has been helpfull on many other subjects that many of us could or have benefit from. So ... because he can sell a few handles or restore a knife once in a while, he's a bad guy all of a sudden? Give me a f...... break.

@ Marko: Quote/ I think it's very unproductive to say things like "money talks" by somebody who is a beneficiary of free information. I yet to meet a single person who had to pay for a free advice here and most of it is a quality advice.

Well this free information leads to sales right. So I guess both vendors and users benefits from this - goes both ways.

......................

Anyways, I'm out of this thread. I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth of opinions in here :D

Marko Tsourkan
11-26-2011, 09:49 AM
@ Marko: Quote/ I think it's very unproductive to say things like "money talks" by somebody who is a beneficiary of free information. I yet to meet a single person who had to pay for a free advice here and most of it is a quality advice.

Well this free information leads to sales right. So I guess both vendors and users benefits from this - goes both ways.

......................

Anyways, I'm out of this thread. I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth of opinions in here :D

Rarely if at all. That has been my experience.

ajhuff
11-26-2011, 11:43 AM
I want to offer some perspective here.

I was paying $500 per year on KF for privileges of being a hobbyist, working from my spare bedroom. I had to bargain hard to get this price down from $900 - the price J. Novka (owner) requested. My rate of production was similar to Harald's. It was a lot of money, but it was important for me to continue practicing, so I accepted it.

M

WHOA!!! For someone who is a hobbyist, in anything, knives, cars, stamps, those rates are excessive. That is a business expense. If you are a hobbyist and sell anything, you're not thinking profit margin, you're thinking recouping.

I'm starting to wonder if the hobbyist subscription price isn't playing a significant role in the bitterness presented on this thread.

By the way, to all the moderators: grow up and start acting professional. All of you come across as nothing but bullies.

-AJ

apicius9
11-26-2011, 12:06 PM
Many of us spend a lot of time here and contribute valuable information on whatever level we can, often time we could have used more productively to make money somewhere else. Dave is the one who in addition to that invests actual money in this forum, takes the risk, and feels responsible to spend more time than anybody else - just look at the post numbers. When he mentioned that he spent last week only dealing with the forum, at an hourly rate of $50 (which is very meager for being excellent at what he does) and his usual work time, I assume he lost at least $2,500 in other work that he could have earned to feed his family and pay for his overhead. I also assume that if all vendors and hobbyists pay their fees, he will still not become rich running this forum,if you value the time it costs. And without the moderators volunteering their time, IMHO it would be bordering on stupid to run a forum if you also run a business, even if you consider that it also brings in business. The community definitely profits at least as much from this from as the one who runs it. And from all I know, many of the hobbyists take a loss from what they do if you consider time and overhead.

Just my 2cts.

Stefan

JBroida
11-26-2011, 12:15 PM
Well this free information leads to sales right. So I guess both vendors and users benefits from this - goes both ways.


You'd be surprised to see how much time i spend talking with some people only to have them shop somewhere else for a couple bucks less. Doest stop me from talking to them or giving advise, but i dont think people see how much this kind of thing happens.

Marko Tsourkan
11-26-2011, 12:19 PM
WHOA!!! For someone who is a hobbyist, in anything, knives, cars, stamps, those rates are excessive. That is a business expense. If you are a hobbyist and sell anything, you're not thinking profit margin, you're thinking recouping.

...
-AJ

Yes it was excessive, and believe me, I would not turn down an offer to pay less in advertisement fees on KF, but it was a final offer, and I got myself a peace of mind (besides, I contacted J. Novka myself and offered to pay). Let's be honest, showing your work does lead to custom work orders through the forum and it would be fair to give something back.

As whether contributing to forum gives you a right to a certain status, well, it's a two-way street. One contributes, but also one takes something from the forum, be it information, community interaction, making friends, etc.

In retrospect, even $40 per month didn't feel like something unmanageable, if you don't have an overhead. Compared with $1000/month I am paying now, it was almost trivial. :)

So, everything should be looked at in perspective.

M

tk59
11-26-2011, 12:43 PM
...By the way, to all the moderators: grow up and start acting professional. All of you come across as nothing but bullies...I haven't seen any problems with mods here. Aside from the vendor thing and the Burke giveaway, I haven't noticed them at all, really. I don't think this is the right place to be giving mods on another forum crticism. I'm sure they don't keep up here.

Dave Martell
11-26-2011, 12:52 PM
Dave should pay to let others make money??? I already commented on this once ie. supporting membership, donation button etc. If that can't cover the expenses the hosting provided sucks, as simple as that! If time spent is an issue you get moderators to help out. There are a few mods here and I imagine they do it of interest, not to get paid, but of course I could be wrong! If they do it for $ then hmmmm. Work for free ... well if you read one of my previous posts I run a forum that's not kniferelated and it´s free for everybody - I pay the hosting etc. - so yes I work for free in my spare time, I even pay for others to enjoy themselves, what a sport ;)


I'll ask you, as well as all the members & moderators here, a question......How many of you have spent the last week making no money at all - nothing - so that this forum can continue to run and be online?





Harald contributed a lot in here, also on other subjects that his own projects. This have helped lot's of members - I'm sure of that. Thanks for your time and wise answers H :D When I first joined this forum I had the idea that the owner was here to contribute a lot - because of interest. Dave is, from what I hear, one of the best sharpeners in the US. I imagined that he would give a lot of great adwises but after being here for a couple of months I really don't see a whole lot from him. The things I often see though is, now there's a new knife, now you can buy this and that ... or a funny video. In depth answers is very seldom, if at all. So my own conclusion is - it's a business first of all - business = money.


Interesting observation about my lack of substantial contributions here. I'll help you to understand why this is.

I spent the last 10 years sharing everything I know with anyone who asked. I went far beyond that though, I shared everything I learned as I grew my business without having to be asked. I helped to build this community from the ground up. I did all that because I love this stuff - plain & simple.

What did this contributing get me?

Well yes I ended up growing a business and many loyal customers came from my work I performed - I'll not argue this - I'm grateful.

What I also got was a bunch of scumbags taking this shared information and using it against me. As a result I suffered a great loss of business.

As a result I'm not so eager to open up my brain and pour things out so freely anymore. I hold a lot back and this hurts me inside but I've been taught a lesson and I learned from it.

So let's ask you a question Peco, why do you want to learn from me? Are you a professional sharpener? I think I recall this about you, maybe I'm wrong? If I'm correct then you're no better than the people who burnt me in the past. Maybe you're even worse for coming here and chastising me for not sharing with you. Either way I don't see how I owe you anything.

ajhuff
11-26-2011, 12:53 PM
I guess I'm just used to much more civil forums. Sorry. I think it must be too many type A personalities in one room here. The sniping and personal attacks and airing of dirty laundry on knife forums must be considered standard. I feel Sudsy's comments were a little too much of a personal attack and most of Dave's comments directed at Harald should be PMs no matter how frustrated he must be. I guess my past experience on other forums has given me too high expectations here.

-AJ

UglyJoe
11-26-2011, 01:01 PM
Geeze, will you people grow up!

FACT: Some people pay a certain amount of money in order to show off their wares here on these forums.

FACT: It is unfair to ask these people to pay money for this right, and then allow other people to post similarly and show off their wares without paying.

FACT: When people who haven't paid for the right to post their wares post something that might lead to them increasing their business volume, they are punished for it.

This is all pretty straight forward. The only people sniping here are the complainers who don't understand that this is a PRIVATELY OWNED FORUM and don't want to follow simple rules.

mano
11-26-2011, 01:04 PM
You'd be surprised to see how much time i spend talking with some people only to have them shop somewhere else for a couple bucks less. Doest stop me from talking to them or giving advise, but i dont think people see how much this kind of thing happens.

I'd bet that's true for the vast majority of people who work for themselves and enjoy sharing their knowledge. There's a limit to how much time and expertise I share but rarely reach that limit. I look at it as casting bread upon the waters.

Vertigo
11-26-2011, 01:06 PM
The only people sniping here are the complainers who don't understand that this is a PRIVATELY OWNED FORUM
Heh. Boy does that sound strangely familiar, lol.

bikehunter
11-26-2011, 01:24 PM
You'd be surprised to see how much time i spend talking with some people only to have them shop somewhere else for a couple bucks less. Doest stop me from talking to them or giving advise, but i dont think people see how much this kind of thing happens.

I, for one, wouldn't be surprised. This is the bane of small, knowledgeable business owners, Jon. As a former owner of both gun and bike stores, there isn't enough room here to tell my stories of "prospective customers" who have picked my brain, often for hours...and then gone to Walmart or Performance Bike.... to save 20 bucks....on a $500 item. ;-) This is why it's become more and more difficult to find these small, mom&pop businesses.

Andrew H
11-26-2011, 01:26 PM
The hobbyist fee here is reasonable, and easily recoupable if you sell the one item per month that is allowed to hobbyists. If you wish to be a hobbyist you can post your one sale per month and lots of WIP pictures, or you can choose to do one per year. Either way, the cost is a flat rate and it is up to you if you want to get the full benefits. I'm sorry you can't DH, but that isn't on the forums, or Dave.
AJ, the moderators here aren't professional. We aren't paid. We are members who care about the community, and participate in it.

Chef Niloc
11-26-2011, 01:32 PM
WHOA!!! For someone who is a hobbyist, in anything, knives, cars, stamps, those rates are excessive. That is a business expense. If you are a hobbyist and sell anything, you're not thinking profit margin, you're thinking recouping.

I'm starting to wonder if the hobbyist subscription price isn't playing a significant role in the bitterness presented on this thread.

By the way, to all the moderators: grow up and start acting professional. All of you come across as nothing but bullies.

-AJ

I have to agree here. I have been one to side with Dave on most things, he'll I got myself banned from KF doing so. At lest I feel free to speak my mind here without fear of being banned or having posts removed.

On the subject of hobbyist vs vender, pay vs free.

I remember when Marco and Stefan started out it was as a hobby.I my self have many hobbies, too many. So I can say 1st hand that both of them were lousing money, not making it! I also noticed at some point there hobby expanded. They were no longer just selling "a few extra" or the occasional custom order. I have waited months, years some times for handles, hell I never even got Marco to make me a saya, he was always too busy. While the white time for there work has not changed much the volume of it has and at some point a conscious decision was made to "step up" there hobby to try and make money at it.
See as a hobbyist here is how I see it. When you start the stuff you make gets thrown away because you are to embarrassed to let others see it. You get better over time and show some of your stuff off, be it to friends, other hobbyists, ext. from first hand experience I can say that in order to take your skill to a higher level you have to start making things for other people. You see when it's for someone else you are no longer willing to let that little mess up slide by. You know you are being judged on some level and this forces you to step up your game. The next step is taking a payed order. Now not only is the presser on you Because someone else is seeing it but now your taking another mans money. Paul Long ( a sheath maker) once sad when people ask him "what's good enough" his answer is " when your taking another mans money your very best, the best that you can knowing do ( implying if you know you screwed up start over)" so that's my out line of a hobby vs vender, it's the point when the maker decides he's going to "make a go at it" and try and start a business, even if it's a side business.
Now the question how can Dave possibly know when the maker "makes that change", I don't have that answer. My first thought is time and honesty, but I know Dave is weary of that, and with good reason.

Now the rest of what I'm going to say I want to state is all personnel opinion and is not based on anything I have herd, been told about ext, all just thoughts and conclusions that come to mind.

Dave started this Board as a way to get away from all the BS that was going on over at KF. It was my understanding that it was never "about the money", and I still don't think it is. Let me explain ( again how I see it, I have not had any conversations on this with Dave or anyone else!) I don't Know what it costs to run this sight, but it is my thought and I think others ( that know more then me) would agree that it can't be 10's of 1000's a year, again I don't know. I do know that as a mod on another board ( not knife related) I was payed $250 a month, the sight had a $20 a year membership fee and about 1500 members. Sight also had paying venders, but no banner adds. I don't have a problem with Dave making a little something's for his trouble, don't think anyone does. However I don't think it's about the money, I'm going out on a limb here but I think all this vender/ hobby/ pay, not pay is fallout from what happened at KF. I think Dave's jaded from what happened over there, feels taken advantage of, ext. rightfully so, but it's sad that that "history" is manifesting it's self in a negative way here.

As for the mods 1) I don't think they are payed? 2) I think they are quick on the trigger and hot headed, and take things to personally. As a mod you put yourself in a position to be criticized for your actions, that title puts you in a position of power. It links you to "the board" and thus comments directed at you can not be taken personally. Ryan like myself has always been a big mouth, little bit of a pot stirrer, but notice I'm not a mod. I don't think Dave would want me as a mod because of the things I say and the way I say them, good call on Dave's part. I know Ryan and Dave are good friends and I like to consider my self there friend. Ryan does not have the right personality nor does Dave to be a mod I.M.O. I hate to say it as most know my feeling for him these days but Adam was a very good Mod, take note.

I really don't want this board to fall apart from all this B.S. and I don't think it will as I have assured and will continue to assure those members who PM me or call me and ask me "what's going on" but I will have to agree with the comment that Salty made " paying vender $./+ will be the death of this board just like it was over at KF. The day everyone feels that the only reason To come here it to do business with the venders here is the day this place stops being a community of enthusiasts and becomes a shopping mall....mind you a shopping mall with all the great stores, pure couture, Beverley hills of the knife world.

ajhuff
11-26-2011, 01:44 PM
AJ, the moderators here aren't professional. We aren't paid. We are members who care about the community, and participate in it.

You don't have to be a professional in order to ACT like a professional.

-AJ

Dave Martell
11-26-2011, 02:22 PM
I really don't want this board to fall apart from all this B.S. and I don't think it will as I have assured and will continue to assure those members who PM me or call me and ask me "what's going on" but I will have to agree with the comment that Salty made " paying vender $./+ will be the death of this board just like it was over at KF. The day everyone feels that the only reason To come here it to do business with the venders here is the day this place stops being a community of enthusiasts and becomes a shopping mall....mind you a shopping mall with all the great stores, pure couture, Beverley hills of the knife world.


I think you're correct in saying that much of what's happening here is a carry over from the KF problems but we're trying to deal with it the best we can. A large problem occurred there when vendors were let run a muck with no leadership present or clear directions and rules to follow. Takers took and givers got taken. I'm hopeful that we won't repeat these mistakes because we're being proactive vs reactive where we can.

You're also correct that Ryan & I might not have the right personalities to moderate. I'm sure that both of us will take a back seat to daily moderation when we can. We've just made a huge step in the direction of bringing on more level headed individuals to moderate so again I'm hopeful that things will be good here on this front.

I'm convinced that this is a hurdle that we're going to overcome but nothing worth having comes easy and we're just in a state of change and the change isn't easy for some.

Peco
11-26-2011, 03:13 PM
You'd be surprised to see how much time i spend talking with some people only to have them shop somewhere else for a couple bucks less. Doest stop me from talking to them or giving advise, but i dont think people see how much this kind of thing happens.

I've been selfemployed for more than 15 years so I know exactly what you are saying. I'm sure you will benefit from the time spent on people, maybe not now, but sometime in the future.

stevenStefano
11-26-2011, 06:29 PM
Just to add my opinion, I think the problems here are pretty trivial to those on the "other place". I originally wrote a whole load of stuff about why I hardly ever post there but I'm sure everyone else probably has the same reasons and they don't need going over again

So basically I think the people who do most things here have their heart/head in the right place and I think they are doing the right things and these issues that are arising are simply a product of an internet forum, in a field that seemingly can't avoid drama, nothing more and nothing less. The community here is great and I have learned more than I thought I ever could about knives. I really don't think money is any sort of issue at all, I think the issue is that the community is growing so fast that changes need to be made periodically to keep up

PierreRodrigue
11-26-2011, 07:32 PM
Amen.

ecchef
11-26-2011, 08:51 PM
In the end, this is Harald's decision; not Dave's, not the mods', not the general membership.

Is many of you understand, the playing field must be level. It is up to the individual to decide if the return on the investment of becoming a 'hobbyist' is worth it.
In Harald's case, perhaps not. But it does not preclude him from being a contributing member. It does prevent him from soliciting work through wip posts & linking to other sites to promote business. I would hate to see him leave because of ill will, or to see him excluded due to rules violations, but again, the choice is his.

AJ- as far as the moderators being a "bunch of bullies", I think that you should give us new guys a chance to prove you otherwise. As Len said, mods aren't professionals at this, and we certainly don't get paid. In fact, there are absolutely no fringe benefits. We don't jump to the top of pass around lists (if we get on at all), we don't get free merchandise from vendors, sh*t...I can't even get Dave to finish my goddamn knife! :D

I appreciate all the discussion and opinion raised by this unfortunate incident, and hope that this forum will become a better and more unified place as the result of it. I will certainly try to make that happen in whatever way I can.

sudsy9977
11-26-2011, 11:39 PM
Colin....i haven't stirred a pot in years....screw you!.....in all seriousness if anyone takes my comments as too harsh please let me know......i don't think i come off like that but maybe i do....if i do im sorry.....

@ peco.....i wasn't trying to attack u....just trying to make a point....


I don't think all of the vendors/ hobbyists wil be a problem over here.....i think some of the bugs just have to get worked out.....Ryan

P.s.....Dave...maybe u should start paying me!!!

oivind_dahle
11-27-2011, 09:55 AM
There are always different views on a certain problem :)

First off lets agree on something:

1. The forum is made by the users
2. The better users, the more will join up, the bigger forum
3. Some users like Darkhoek gives a lot of info that are of high quality, other users like me gives even more info but with far less quality
4. The users do this for FREE
5. The forum is therefor dependent on its users

6. There are some cost creating a forum, and this must be covered by some kind of fee from vendors or others marketing their knives here.


The risk I see with this forum is:

- Only one owner
- Freedom of speech and to link to sites (Im concerned about not allowing links to C K T G, Jende and other "enemies" of Dave and links to ebay - this makes it often hard for me to find the content mentioned)


For the users we will not be affected by this, but it will affect hobby makers like Darkhoek. He makes perhaps 3 handles a month, and I keep him occupied almost alone. He will not make money or steal business from the other vendors or pro makers - therefor its hard for him to pay 175 USD being on this forum. Even worse when he cannot write whatever he wants in his own blog. Hobbyist makes this forum far better, and the marketing about the work they make will generate more work for the pros. More customer wants semi customs, then more work for the pros. Hobbyist also make the forum far better, charing their knowledge....

For the vendors they have a huge risk by helping to build a site they don't have ownership in. This is a strategical partnership with ONE owner of KKF. There are pros and cons getting involved into a partnership like this. As a business advisor I would point out RISK and FEAR as the most dangerous signs in this partnership.
The real danger is that the owner will double his prices or even triple it, as a lonely vendor it can be hard to not be part and therefor will feel obliged to pay the fee.

For the knife makers its very hard to stand out. Do you really get the value back spent on a forum like this. Cause if more and more makers brand their knives to the same small group, then this will eventually affect the prices. Most users will not understand or will be willing to pay the difference between an Ealy and a Burke. This will be positive for Ealy but not for Burke. Thats a risk the makers must calculate to pay fees on a forum like this

When all this is said Im also concerned about Dave. Understand this: I want Dave to make money, and Im impressed by his forum and its users. He must find the balance between fees and that his customers get what they pay for (vendors, makers). If I was Dave I would talk to the vendors on the site and have an open dialogue about it. This way the customers understand that Dave wants to have a strategical partnership and that he is honest about the future. Some vendors might have a shock when the fee is 29,500 USD per year.

I like Dave (even though it may not appear like it all the time). But I want him to talk to his customers, and make hobbyist like Harald post wip and stuff without having he pay a fee. Harald does not make money on his hobby, and it should be unfair when he makes the forum better that he also have to pay a fee....

For those who wants to know more about strategical partnership go google, read about pro and cons as well.

Finally I would like to say, this is a forum not a webshop :)
Good luck to all parts, I want Dave to have success, but I also wanna see hobbyist post wip and cool post that I learn a lot from :)

ecchef
11-27-2011, 10:05 AM
Oivind...Thank you. That was very well stated and completely objective.

sudsy9977
11-27-2011, 10:39 AM
Oivind.....u make some good points......but how is it fair when a hobbyist posts about their work and takes business away from a supporting vendor?.....Ryan

echerub
11-27-2011, 10:40 AM
+1. Very well put response.

bprescot
11-27-2011, 10:43 AM
Good luck to all parts, I want Dave to have success, but I also wanna see hobbyist post wip and cool post that I learn a lot from :)

Like so many things in life, this is a balancing act. On one side, we have fairness to paying vendors and hobbyists, and on the other side we've got the benefits to the community that these WIP threads contain. Remember Fish's WIP threads? I got more from that thread on how to restore that mukimono someone sent him than all others posts on the subject to date. But Fish wasn't a vendor I don't think. Now that probably worked because there wasn't a concept of a 'hobbyist' classification, and today, Fish would likely be asked to become a hobbyist. It just troubles me to think that if he didn't have the scratch to actually do that, I would never have seen his beautiful galleries or WIP threads.

I completely understand the fairness aspect, but I wish there were a way to shift that balance point a little bit. How about making donations mandatory as part of B/S/T and having Hobbyist sales be a % commission? That might be able to raise enough that the static hobbyist fee could come down. That way low-volume, lower-cost hobbyists wouldn't see it as quite as much of a burden.

Probably some issues with that idea, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Peco
11-27-2011, 11:17 AM
Ok, have to put a little comment.

I actually don't see there's a big problem when it comes to hobbyists "stealing" customers from vendors. First of all we all have different things we like, some like Ealy, some like Burke etc. etc. They all have their different styles - styles that won't be great for everybody ... or of their likeings. When I look at the different posts from vendors - their updates etc. it seems like most ... if not all ... have a 6 month waitinglist, maybe even longer. I'm sure that because H, makes a handle or 2 a month they wouldn't mind at all - he is not a threat.

I just read a post in here, actually several, where vendors give adwise on subjects/projects that aren't their own. I know for a fact that some vendors help each other - even though they are "competitors". So do we really have a problem or?

tk59
11-27-2011, 11:44 AM
The only problems I see here are:
1. Dave spends a ton of time on here, rather than making money.
2. Some hobbyists may not think the fee is worth it.
The solutions:
1. Dave needs to remove himself from managing the site as much as possible. The new mods might make that possible.
2. I like Ben's suggestion. The fee should be related to sales somehow.

Peco
11-27-2011, 11:53 AM
The solutions:
2. I like Ben's suggestion. The fee should be related to sales somehow.

You can't ever control that. Many deals are done thru PM's or mail/Skype, not in public - even when doing business with vendors.

RRLOVER
11-27-2011, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=sudsy9977;....but how is it fair when a hobbyist posts about their work and takes business away from a supporting vendor?.....Ryan[/QUOTE]

This seems to be the statement that's on REPEAT!! Until I hear a complaint from a vendor stating that I am taking away business from them I will go on record saying that this quote is a Pile of BULLSH!T. I wish people were more Honest and stop pussy footing around.Let's call a spade a spade! This site has become a PAY TO PLAY,it is as simple as that. So please any of the vendors can make me eat my words,which would make me happy knowing there is a legit complaint.

tk59
11-27-2011, 12:14 PM
You can't ever control that. Many deals are done thru PM's or mail/Skype, not in public - even when doing business with vendors.

Haha, that's true. So you're saying that the people on this forum would consistently cheat the system? Good point.

tk59
11-27-2011, 12:19 PM
This seems to be the statement that's on REPEAT!! Until I hear a complaint from a vendor stating that I am taking away business from them I will go on record saying that this quote is a Pile of BULLSH!T. I wish people were more Honest and stop pussy footing around.Let's call a spade a spade! This site has become a PAY TO PLAY,it is as simple as that. So please any of the vendors can make me eat my words,which would make me happy knowing there is a legit complaint.
If I was a vendor, I wouldn't complain publicly unless I wanted to start trouble or be labeled an ogre.

Eamon Burke
11-27-2011, 12:23 PM
Ryan, I think the issue is less about taking business away from vendors(which is an inescapable fact of living in a zero-sum, material universe), and more about the things involved in making a site work that is growing and supporting all the pms, account traffic, bugs and issues attracted by a good, busy site, etc.

If you are making money on the forum, the forum deserves money, not out of some sense of feudal justice, but because they are providing your business with a valuable, critical service, that is not free for them!

The BoardSMITH
11-27-2011, 12:54 PM
Yes it was excessive, and believe me, I would not turn down an offer to pay less in advertisement fees on KF

M

I was bullied by Nowka as well with the excessive fees he wanted to charge for a rotation banner that appeared for just a few seconds at the top of a page. Most of the time it was hidden. He stated that without KF, I would have no business. So I polled the last 25 customers at that point and asked how they heard about me. Out of the 20 who responded, only 1 said KF was the source. BTW Nowkas rule was if a person accepted credit cards then they were a vendor.

I do sell a few boards to members here at KKF but the volume doesn't justify the vendor priviledge expense. I stay here because I have a lot of friends here, there are a ton of good folks I learn from and the forum feels like a place I am welcomed at.

Jon - I too enjoy talking to people who call or stop by to ask pricing and features. Out of 50 I speak with, maybe 20 will order. Most are looking for a cheaper product and just use me as a source of information.

JohnnyChance
11-27-2011, 01:16 PM
This seems to be the statement that's on REPEAT!! Until I hear a complaint from a vendor stating that I am taking away business from them I will go on record saying that this quote is a Pile of BULLSH!T. I wish people were more Honest and stop pussy footing around.Let's call a spade a spade! This site has become a PAY TO PLAY,it is as simple as that. So please any of the vendors can make me eat my words,which would make me happy knowing there is a legit complaint.

We don't need a legit complaint. For the vendors, this site is pay to play. So why should we offer the same exposure to others for free? What incentive is there for new vendors to come aboard or for the current ones to stay on?

Dave Martell
11-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Oivind, this site is in fact owned by one person but it's policies are made and governed by many. Currently we have 7 other people on board to vote on all aspects of running this site. These 7 people offer different opinions and viewpoints to each other which brings a balance to the direction that KKF will operate in the future. No one person is running this site any longer.

RRLOVER
11-27-2011, 03:16 PM
We don't need a legit complaint. For the vendors, this site is pay to play. So why should we offer the same exposure to others for free? What incentive is there for new vendors to come aboard or for the current ones to stay on?

You are 100% correct.I don't have a problem with play to pay,I do have a problem with some claiming I would be stealing customers from vendors.

macmiddlebrooks
11-27-2011, 03:23 PM
As someone who has sold a few things on this forum, I would fully support a sellers fee if it means hobbyists pay a small nominal fee. My view is that the hobbyest fee should be as small as possible.This encourages growth plain and simple, and I'll gladly take a hit to see that happen. My envy of their skills evolving before my eyes fuels this bending over :)

bieniek
11-27-2011, 06:28 PM
I dont come here so often anymore cause of what that exact shite is about. Just checking from time to time whats for sale.

Everyone just talks about dollars, and even not 'bout their own.

Maybe a little relax, smoke some weed or something?

And those of you who just cannot stop commenting Europeans or European countries get reminder, when USA werent on the map yet they [danish] were having good fun over there. And beating the living shite of your grandgrandfathers on British soil. Maybe working is free in Danmark, maybe theres more of passion for free? Not everything can be turned into money in straight relation.

Thats why I think for how DarkHoek helped or entertained the public, he should get freedom in showing us the outcome of his sweats, if its on the level he claims it is. Not because he is equaler than others who pay so much to advertise, but cause he have the will and patience to spend his hobbyist time to share, where I think a paying vendor have a must to share, where not many does.

And what a forum is? I would thought of a place for people to share and exchange. If so, phuck the vendors out.

bikehunter
11-27-2011, 06:32 PM
LOL

DK chef
11-27-2011, 06:43 PM
I dont come here so often anymore cause of what that exact shite is about. Just checking from time to time whats for sale.

Everyone just talks about dollars, and even not 'bout their own.

Maybe a little relax, smoke some weed or something?

And those of you who just cannot stop commenting Europeans or European countries get reminder, when USA werent on the map yet they [danish] were having good fun over there. And beating the living shite of your grandgrandfathers on British soil. Maybe working is free in Danmark, maybe theres more of passion for free? Not everything can be turned into money in straight relation.

Thats why I think for how DarkHoek helped or entertained the public, he should get freedom in showing us the outcome of his sweats, if its on the level he claims it is. Not because he is equaler than others who pay so much to advertise, but cause he have the will and patience to spend his hobbyist time to share, where I think a paying vendor have a must to share, where not many does.

And what a forum is? I would thought of a place for people to share and exchange. If so, phuck the vendors out.

+1 :)

i should have given my support money to DarkHoek instead than to this site, because he have helped me for free a lot of times, so i get more bang for the buck from him than here. and no we dont work for free here in Denmark but we enjoy to share and help each other. and dont see $$ everytime we are going to answer some questions. i hope that i will never see this happen in europe http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b0_1322251378

Dave Martell
11-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Wow, this is turning into an international incident.

Chef Niloc
11-27-2011, 07:21 PM
And those of you who just cannot stop commenting Europeans or European countries get reminder, when USA werent on the map yet they [danish] were having good fun over there. And beating the living shite of your grandgrandfathers on British soil. Maybe working is free in Danmark, maybe theres more of passion for free? Not everything can be turned into money in straight relation.

.

Didn't the whole world hate the Viking's?

bikehunter
11-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Wow, this is turning into an international incident.

I'll say. Gotta watch out for those Vikings who used to beat up our great, great, great, great, great , great grandfathers. Wonder why they didn't take over the world? LOL

Chef Niloc
11-27-2011, 07:47 PM
O before my comment gets mistaken, I have nothing agents Denmark! Just find it odd that someone would brag about the atrocities there ancestors committed. Kind of like us saying " boy we had some fun with them Indians back in the day" or German saying " remember what we did in Poland"

ajhuff
11-27-2011, 08:10 PM
One would think that, but then I often hear about the good old days here in the deep south and they aren't talking about before the BCS bowl games were created.

-AJ

WillC
11-27-2011, 08:56 PM
I've been following this thread and avoiding comment. I would like to say having made a living from my craft/art, (I've never been sure which I fit best). Its not the most stable way to sustain yourself. I love what I do and value it mostly over my own well being. I'm not a business man. I think this is common to allot of creative people, But in the past ten years I have learned something about at least sustaining myself, and an understanding of how others sustain themselves. Its a fact of life, a human nature which I've become most accustomed to, strangely in the society in which we live in, everyone has to make money/eat!! You can't blame a forum for that. What i'm saying is it has to be sustainable, and i'm in no doubt that it is just that. I'm baffled that some can see the art and work in a piece of metal/wood/bone/mammoth/meteorite:D And say that is worth the price, and at the same time dismiss a good honest structure for promoting and sustaining a craft. Btw 180$ per year is about the same as a magazine subscription. I don't want to get to businesey because it is an enthusiasm turn off. And I know because I have to keep a balance daily.

AFKitchenknivesguy
11-28-2011, 03:10 AM
I spent the last hour reading this thread (most of it, too many repeat points and windbagging). Why did this become a Denmark versus US thing? Because Ryan made a statement about working for free at home in Denmark? Grow up!? The world is too small for that anti-american BS anymore. I lived in Europe for years and loved it; not everything is perfect there though.

Other than that, no opinion on the subject. Feel bad for both Dave and Harold; I see both sides.

PS, before the mods got called out, I thought they were bullying as well. Thanks to AJ and Colin for calling them out.
PPS, You couldn't pay me to mod, too much BS, especially when you aren't getting paid!

oivind_dahle
11-28-2011, 03:42 AM
This is not Darkhoek vs US, nor Scandinavia vs US :)

Why do people come to a forum like this? I think its mainly because its of their interest and to learn something. A forum where you don't learn will in the end be a place you rarely visit. I truly believe man is hungry for knowledge. And when a forum is dependent of its users, its important that the good ones are willing to share their knowledge. Most do this for free. In a professional setting they would charge a lot of money for it. For KKF owners this is professional business and for the users a hobby. Should the top posters gotten paid by KKF?

Im sure this would be possible based of ranking of the members, by the members. But I won't go there. The thing is that they should not be charged to post on a forum like this

1) They post interesting posts
2) They generate more jobs for the pros
3) They generate more users to the forum
4) They help the forum fulfill their promises to the paying customers (vendors and pros) (I would expect a lot when paying for something).

Seen in this light the question is if they should have pay or not, not what they should be charged.
An other thing is that this forum is growing, and now there are more makers than ever and it will be hard to stand out. This place is a risky thing for lots of vendors and makers, and I guess if used by KFF it will in the end turn out ugly. Its not all about money, its about passion, interest and addiction. Everyone got their own agenda, however I like to point out this is a forum, not a webshop. Therefor it should be possible to post links and use a persons name without getting ***** al over your text.

ecchef
11-28-2011, 04:33 AM
Didn't the whole world hate the Viking's?

Only the one's from Minnesota. :razz:

Eamon Burke
11-28-2011, 09:55 AM
Forums are communuties where enthusiasts can gather to share work and moderators are enthusiasts who work where others show they gather. One is free, and the other is fair but when vendors support hobbyists the responsibility becomes profit of hobby enthusiasts. Who is to say which side is right when people are people and hobbyists are vendors in a forum where moderators are fanatic knife right wrong hobbyist vendors?

kalaeb
11-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Forums are communuties where enthusiasts can gather to share work and moderators are enthusiasts who work where others show they gather. One is free, and the other is fair but when vendors support hobbyists the responsibility becomes profit of hobby enthusiasts. Who is to say which side is right when people are people and hobbyists are vendors in a forum where moderators are fanatic knife right wrong hobbyist vendors?

Ummm, yup no where to go with that one.

oivind_dahle
11-28-2011, 11:30 AM
http://***********************/2011/11/ban-is-lifted-but-did-i-get-my-freedom.html

Hmmmm....

Dave Martell
11-28-2011, 12:58 PM
Oivind, are you and Harald purposely stirring up trouble? His blogging about this situation off site and your posting it here for us to see is in bad form.

TDj
11-28-2011, 01:10 PM
just to be clear, Darkhoek is allowed to post and read without paying, just so long as he's not self-promoting, right?

Dave Martell
11-28-2011, 01:11 PM
just to be clear, Darkhoek is allowed to post and read without paying, just so long as he's not self-promoting, right?

Absolutely 100% - YES

Eamon Burke
11-28-2011, 01:50 PM
You know, the rules for members versus the category for the type of merchant vendor status is implied in the size of the fee involved. The site mods for kkf ban reading and wip for the hard work of contributions to the sizeable vendor realm of online discussion.

SpikeC
11-28-2011, 02:53 PM
"The site mods for kkf ban reading and wip for the hard work of contributions to the sizeable vendor realm of online discussion."

Huh?

Eamon Burke
11-28-2011, 03:31 PM
Sorry, this thread started parodying itself a long time ago. I couldn't help myself.

bieniek
11-28-2011, 04:41 PM
Wow, this is turning into an international incident.

No, Dave, I dont consider it accident even, something less.

What I meant is people get so personal here, like its about holy grail, and its just about pieces of steel.
Mind that im no Norwegian, nor Scandinavian, Im actually have no country of origin, where my nice salary is and children benefits there you can find me. Simple as it is. And stepping on somebody being from Danmark or whatever country and being rude and sarcastic is pure idiotism. Respect is not about not saying things like this, its about being wise enough to understand there are other countries and cultures and looks on subject.

But I speak how I feel, Im afraid that at some point this website might become a place for tight group of people to smell their own farts and talk about the fragrance of it.

Im just a poor chef and will propably never buy from any of the vendors here, apart from maybe considering your knife Dave, if it ever will be available like I click today, tomorrow you send.
Maybe thats why I dont really care about them?

And yes, I care more for people who have one job, and passion on the side. Just cause I understand its pleasure to work with wood and let me tell you, if I sharpen knife for stranger I would charge him money just for those few hours I cannot spend with my family. Not because I want more or its my profession

And is he using this site to promote himself? Yes but theres no chance to be otherwise if he shares the knowledge. Cause if I read something good from DarkHoek or you it makes me visit your website 100x as much as ************ for example, if you understand?

bieniek
11-28-2011, 04:46 PM
Oivind, are you and Harald purposely stirring up trouble? His blogging about this situation off site and your posting it here for us to see is in bad form.
Hahaha I went on the blog and theres something like "why why why" texts and all that shite and for those who dont understand graphics of it, lol.

sachem allison
11-28-2011, 05:59 PM
I just don't understand what the beef is to spend $3+ dollars a week to be a hobby seller is. That's less than a cup of coffee at starbucks. $ 175.00 a year when some spend thousand's a year on knives, quit crying and suck it up.

ajhuff
11-28-2011, 06:43 PM
Maybe $175 is more expensive to some people than others. Maybe it is as lot more in some countries than others. I know it's A LOT of money where I live where gas is 3.45/gallon and about the same for a half gallon of milk. All relative I guess.

-AJ

sachem allison
11-28-2011, 07:25 PM
Maybe $175 is more expensive to some people than others. Maybe it is as lot more in some countries than others. I know it's A LOT of money where I live where gas is 3.45/gallon and about the same for a half gallon of milk. All relative I guess.

-AJ
Aj I understand that part of it. I live in NYC $4.89 for gas and milk. But alot of the guys complaining are the ones who spend $500, $1000,$ 3000 or more for a knife or sharpening stones and some have a dozen or more of said knives.I don't think $3.40 a week is going to break them, especially when they can make 4 installment payments a year. If putting food on the table for my family or gas in my car so I can go to work to pay the rent is an issue, I would definitely not buy another knife I don't really need, even if that is my passion. Family first, always.
I'm just saying that the return on investment has to be pretty good in the long run. I know what it takes to make these things and I know what we can sell them for. Most importantly I know that the members here always scoop up any pieces that the members make at just about any price they sell them for. I have never seen anything that a member makes hobbiest or vendor that didn't sell pretty damn quick. The people here are damn good at what they do and there is always a market for their products, Harald included.

apicius9
11-28-2011, 07:59 PM
Just to give another perspective: I had originally taxed my handle income as a hobby, only last year I taxed it as a business which finally forced me to go through everything and start some decent book keeping. What I learned was that making handles brought me a net LOSS of about $8,000 in 2010. This is owed to buying more wood than I needed, but mostly to the overhead (shop rent alone is almost $6,000/year). This clearly means I need to rethink what I do, whether I can afford continuing this, how much time I can invest in the future to increase my output, and what prices I realistically need to ask. I am convinced that many of the people here - pros and hobbyists - work for ridiculous hourly rates. On one side you could argue that paying to the forum on top of all that makes it even more difficult. But the way I see it is that the people here are the ones who appreciate my work, and getting positive feedback makes up for some of the financial loss, adds to the fun of it. My ultimate goal is to break even while doing something I enjoy. I have accepted that for now this is a hobby that will cost me rather than make money - just like most other hobbies... And in the overall picture, the forum fees are very relative.

Stefan

RRLOVER
11-28-2011, 08:19 PM
I just don't understand what the beef is to spend $3+ dollars a week to be a hobby seller is. That's less than a cup of coffee at starbucks. $ 175.00 a year when some spend thousand's a year on knives, quit crying and suck it up.


If you knew me you would know it has nothing to do with money.The way things played out in the last week just don't sit right in my stomach.

The BoardSMITH
11-28-2011, 08:20 PM
I'm going to open my big mouth just once more so please humor me a little.

This thread has deteriorated badly and seems to be going no where in a hurry. If I pay the hobbyist fee for Harald, can this please come to an end? It is creating confusion and seemingly some hard feelings between members and we just don't need that.

sachem allison
11-28-2011, 08:35 PM
If you knew me you would know it has nothing to do with money.The way things played out in the last week just don't sit right in my stomach.
i do know what you mean, That's the only reason I made this comment was to get more info from you guys as opposed to having people get so angry and belligerent, instead of talking with each other. This is a very heated topic and instead of yelling and sniping we really should be listening to each other and that isn't happening as much as it should. We are very passionate about what we believe in and that is to be commended, but that also means that we have a tendency to make everyone else feel like they are wrong and we are right. We don't want to compromise and that is what is hurting this forum. I have the greatest respect for the people on this forum but comments like this make you wonder what is going on( Originally Posted by Dave Martell
W.T.F?

If this site is headed in the wrong direction it's because of people like yourself pushing it that way. Case in point - you post on another site that you won't ever post here again yet days later you show here up to sell your knives. What's that about? Another user....)
Salty Dog("To be honest I thought I'd hang around long enough to sell some knives. But that just doesn't seem right. So I won't.")

I like it here and I respect the members here and I myself would be willing to pay some of the hobbyists fees if that would keep the talent here. even though I can't afford it, I will do it if need be.

sachem allison
11-29-2011, 12:28 AM
Just to give another perspective: I had originally taxed my handle income as a hobby, only last year I taxed it as a business which finally forced me to go through everything and start some decent book keeping. What I learned was that making handles brought me a net LOSS of about $8,000 in 2010. This is owed to buying more wood than I needed, but mostly to the overhead (shop rent alone is almost $6,000/year). This clearly means I need to rethink what I do, whether I can afford continuing this, how much time I can invest in the future to increase my output, and what prices I realistically need to ask. I am convinced that many of the people here - pros and hobbyists - work for ridiculous hourly rates. On one side you could argue that paying to the forum on top of all that makes it even more difficult. But the way I see it is that the people here are the ones who appreciate my work, and getting positive feedback makes up for some of the financial loss, adds to the fun of it. My ultimate goal is to break even while doing something I enjoy. I have accepted that for now this is a hobby that will cost me rather than make money - just like most other hobbies... And in the overall picture, the forum fees are very relative.

Stefan
I agree with you and i am in no way saying that people are going to get rich off of this forum. A hobby is still a hobby and like you said you would more then likely be in a bigger hole than you are, if you didn't have the members as your customers. You may not even be doing this other than for your own knives and a few friends. I respect what you and all the other makers are doing. I am just frustrated that the ones who are always talking about their latest high end purchase or custom order are the same ones bitching about $3 or $4 dollars a week. I am just a little confused I guess. all of this negativity is giving me a head ache

Johnny.B.Good
11-29-2011, 01:08 AM
Is the "hobbyist" fee really only $175 per year? And this amount is payable in installments? I have never ordered a custom handle or saya (yet!), but wouldn't one handle/saya set be at least this much if not more? What is the big goddamn deal here? Oivind, didn't you say you monopolize Harald's free time with personal projects? Are you paying him? Harald, if you decide to become a hobbyist and need a customer of the month, put me on the list. You can do a nice write up on it that everyone will enjoy and I'll pay for all of the materials/shipping and your annual fee here. Done. Problem solved. There must be more to this... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

tk59
11-29-2011, 01:28 AM
Perhaps part of the problem here is simply that people get upset when new rules are implemented or old rules are modified. To give an example, if a teacher begins the semester being a taskmaster and then easing up after everyone understands how the class is run, the teacher is generally viewed positively. If a teacher begins the semester being lax and responds to new situations by becoming more strict, the teacher is generally viewed negatively.

As for paying hobbyist fees for someone, I've thought about that myself. The problem is it doesn't solve anything.

Chef Niloc
11-29-2011, 01:49 AM
No, Dave, I dont consider it accident even, something less.

What I meant is people get so personal here, like its about holy grail, and its just about pieces of steel.
Mind that im no Norwegian, nor Scandinavian, Im actually have no country of origin, where my nice salary is and children benefits there you can find me. Simple as it is. And stepping on somebody being from Danmark or whatever country and being rude and sarcastic is pure idiotism. Respect is not about not saying things like this, its about being wise enough to understand there are other countries and cultures and looks on subject.

But I speak how I feel, Im afraid that at some point this website might become a place for tight group of people to smell their own farts and talk about the fragrance of it.

Im just a poor chef and will propably never buy from any of the vendors here, apart from maybe considering your knife Dave, if it ever will be available like I click today, tomorrow you send.
Maybe thats why I dont really care about them?

And yes, I care more for people who have one job, and passion on the side. Just cause I understand its pleasure to work with wood and let me tell you, if I sharpen knife for stranger I would charge him money just for those few hours I cannot spend with my family. Not because I want more or its my profession

And is he using this site to promote himself? Yes but theres no chance to be otherwise if he shares the knowledge. Cause if I read something good from DarkHoek or you it makes me visit your website 100x as much as ************ for example, if you understand?

Is it me or is this guy nuts?









Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

sachem allison
11-29-2011, 01:52 AM
Is it me or is this guy nuts?

brazil!

bieniek
11-29-2011, 01:54 AM
It is not about that money.

From where I stand it is roughly lets say 1000 Norwegian kroner. To give you better view, beer in shop costs 30, in a bar up to 100. Three course meal in decent restaurant can get you billed a grand. It is really easy to spend it, oh so very easy. Minimum salary a month is 18000, leaves you 12000 in your pocket.
So i think it is not about the money, it is about the fact you "throw that money to the sea", as they say here. He have enough jobs now, dont need to advertise. So why pay?

tk59
11-29-2011, 01:55 AM
I didn't understand everything but I thought he made some valid points. There's a little crazy in a lot of the posts on this thread. Most of the people on this forum readily admit to being crazy.

JohnnyChance
11-29-2011, 01:58 AM
I appreciate everyone's input here. No matter what your stance on the issues are, they often give me a perspective different from my own and help me see it from all sides. However, whenever we have threads that include heated discussions such as this one, at some point the thread becomes cyclical and no new discussions are taking place. Instead, old issues are rehashed and the bickering worsens. We are all here because we love high end kitchen cutlery, there is no reason for fights to drag on so long that we make internet enemies because of it. I also don't want anyone to feel like they didn't get to say their piece, or open up a new thread and start this all over again, so I will be locking this thread after Sunday night (12/4/11). Feel free to add anything you think needs to be said until then, but it has to come to an end at some point. If you have any issues with this or anything else, please PM me. Thanks guys!

tk59
11-29-2011, 02:00 AM
That'll be a relief. Good call.

Chef Niloc
11-29-2011, 02:02 AM
I appreciate everyone's input here. No matter what your stance on the issues are, they often give me a perspective different from my own and help me see it from all sides. However, whenever we have threads that include heated discussions such as this one, at some point the thread becomes cyclical and no new discussions are taking place. Instead, old issues are rehashed and the bickering worsens. We are all here because we love high end kitchen cutlery, there is no reason for fights to drag on so long that we make internet enemies because of it. I also don't want anyone to feel like they didn't get to say their piece, or open up a new thread and start this all over again, so I will be locking this thread after Sunday night (12/4/11). Feel free to add anything you think needs to be said until then, but it has to come to an end at some point. If you have any issues with this or anything else, please PM me. Thanks guys!

I see world mod? Did we get rid of super mod??? I hope so this Bark river signature is killing me.

JohnnyChance
11-29-2011, 02:05 AM
I see world mod? Did we get rid of super mod??? I hope so this Bark river signature is killing me.

Gone forever!

tk59
11-29-2011, 02:09 AM
...this Bark river signature is killing me.Huh? You didn't put that sig in yourself?

Chef Niloc
11-29-2011, 02:37 AM
Huh? You didn't put that sig in yourself?

Yes in protest of the super mod tag...

tk59
11-29-2011, 02:45 AM
:rofl2:

jaybett
11-29-2011, 05:42 AM
We all enjoy seeing new knives and custom work. When one of our own starts making handles, sayas, we are excited for the member and supportive of his efforts. The problem in this case was the personal like for a respected member getting mixed up with the business side of the forum.

I fear we may lose the spontaneity of when a member refurbishes, re-handles, or customizes a knife, and would like to share it with the forum, but is hesitant, because will that get them classified as a hobbyist. The issue is how to distinguish between the person who occasionally works on knives versus a hobbyist who makes and sells his work on a regular basis.

In my mind, and I hope he doesn't mind me, using him as an example, but RRLover aka Mario is a knife fan, who has bought and sold a lot of knives, reground the blades on some of his knives, re-handled a few knifes, and even made some knives. What separates him from a hobbyist is that his work isn't showing up on a consistent basis for sale.

A classic example of a hobbyist was Fish. He was just plain talented with knives. He would post a batch of knives that he had re-handled. A few weeks later, those knives would be put up for sale. One of the signs of a hobbyist might be how often are they putting their work up for sale. Having a blog or site, where work is being advertised for sale, definitely puts a person at the hobbyist level.

I don't want to see the forum, become nothing more then a bunch of policies and rules. Besides their isn't a way to write rules for every possible situation. As long as their is a clear understanding that any unusual sale or activity needs to go through Dave or his moderators first, would take care of potential problems.

Jay

mr drinky
11-29-2011, 06:36 AM
I appreciate everyone's input here. No matter what your stance on the issues are, they often give me a perspective different from my own and help me see it from all sides. However, whenever we have threads that include heated discussions such as this one, at some point the thread becomes cyclical and no new discussions are taking place. Instead, old issues are rehashed and the bickering worsens. We are all here because we love high end kitchen cutlery, there is no reason for fights to drag on so long that we make internet enemies because of it. I also don't want anyone to feel like they didn't get to say their piece, or open up a new thread and start this all over again, so I will be locking this thread after Sunday night (12/4/11). Feel free to add anything you think needs to be said until then, but it has to come to an end at some point. If you have any issues with this or anything else, please PM me. Thanks guys!


That'll be a relief. Good call.

+ many to that.

k.

Pabloz
11-29-2011, 10:37 AM
Yes in protest of the super mod tag...

LOL...
Colin,
I know you are being dead serious here but.....OH just love the way you pull a hearty laugh.

Pabloz
11-29-2011, 10:44 AM
We all enjoy seeing new knives and custom work. When one of our own starts making handles, sayas, we are excited for the member and supportive of his efforts. The problem in this case was the personal like for a respected member getting mixed up with the business side of the forum.

I fear we may lose the spontaneity of when a member refurbishes, re-handles, or customizes a knife, and would like to share it with the forum, but is hesitant, because will that get them classified as a hobbyist. The issue is how to distinguish between the person who occasionally works on knives versus a hobbyist who makes and sells his work on a regular basis.

In my mind, and I hope he doesn't mind me, using him as an example, but RRLover aka Mario is a knife fan, who has bought and sold a lot of knives, reground the blades on some of his knives, re-handled a few knifes, and even made some knives. What separates him from a hobbyist is that his work isn't showing up on a consistent basis for sale.

A classic example of a hobbyist was Fish. He was just plain talented with knives. He would post a batch of knives that he had re-handled. A few weeks later, those knives would be put up for sale. One of the signs of a hobbyist might be how often are they putting their work up for sale. Having a blog or site, where work is being advertised for sale, definitely puts a person at the hobbyist level.

I don't want to see the forum, become nothing more then a bunch of policies and rules. Besides their isn't a way to write rules for every possible situation. As long as their is a clear understanding that any unusual sale or activity needs to go through Dave or his moderators first, would take care of potential problems.

Jay

As the only current standing Hobbyist Vendor I am in this very position right now. I truely want to post pics of my past work w/o compromising the terms I agreed to when I purchased my subscription. I am holding certain this in abayance but as I acquire more info from the mods I will post as much as allowed. It is the "spontaneity" mentioned above that I am struggling with most.

Pensacola Tiger
11-29-2011, 11:55 AM
Yes in protest of the super mod tag...

Hey, if we have Global mods, where are the Shun mods or the Henkels mods?

Chef Niloc
11-29-2011, 12:21 PM
Hey, if we have Global mods, where are the Shun mods or the Henkels mods?

LMAO :laughat: Ryan should be the dexter mod.

Chef Niloc
11-29-2011, 01:00 PM
I definitely see both sides here. As a hobbyist I rarely sale anything I make, mostly because I don't make anything good enough to sale. On a few rare occasions someone has asked to buy something I have made, this is encouraging as that means I'm getting better. I use forums ( not this one so much B/C I don't make knives) to show my work to those with more experience and to learn and get tips to improve my work. I sold a few things I made not to long ago on this board ( my spoon holding thingeys), one of the mods pulled it and sent me a warning. I was like ***???, and PM'ed Dave. In a short time it was resolved and my post went back up. Point here is I think mods in general here are a little trigger happy. If I was a new member or a not very active one I could understand, but it bothered me thinking that Dave and or some mod would think i would try and "rip off the forum". Hell I was debating at the time to buy the vendor permit just to sell the 3 spoon things I had, that way my vendor section would sit there for god knows how long unused, people would be like WTH does Colin sell??? Why is he a vendor???.. I thought it would be funny, you guys know my sense of humor. Point is that the _____ amount of money was not a issue to me, I know the money goes to pay for a sight that I spend a lot of my time, good cause in my book. I was not trying to make a buck, not even recover materials or time spent.
Darkhoek on the other hand has hit a different level. His skills have hit a point were people seek him out on a consistent bases for his work. It may still be a hobby to him but the people who are buying things from him don't look at it that way, they look at is as buying something from a skilled craftsmen. I hope the day comes that I'm in his shoes.

jmforge
12-26-2011, 10:22 PM
I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I have to say that the fees on here for hobbyist or vendor memberships are VERY expensive. A comparison to a monster forum like Blade Forums may not be relevant. They have 180,000 registered members and even after all of the mass exodus stuff over the years, they still claim to have over 15,000 active members. Another smaller forum would be a better comparison but I shall not name it. IIRC, it was started for reasons similar to why this one was. People grew tired of the BS on the old "mother" forum (BF in this case) so someone set up a new forum. They now claim to have over 8,000 members of whom over 7,000 are allegedly active. That forum currently has 74 individual "vendor" forums of all types. These forums can be had for as little as $100 a year if you have 3 or fewer employees or as much as $300 if you are a "big player and have 11 or more.. More importantly, if you are a "hobbyist" or even a individual "pro" or any kind and don't need your own forum, you can get a membership that allows you to pimp your product with no limits for $30 a year. Unpaid members, regardless of their status as makers, dealers or just users, can sell up to 12 pieces a year on their free membership. That means that they can also show the work that they are doing and if someone wants to ask them about buying it, they can without worrying about running afoul of the rules. If they get to the point where they are selling stuff regularly, they can pony up $25-30 a year for the appropriate individual membership.
I understand that this forum has to be paid for and perhaps the original intent was to limit the number of "vendors" to a select few. The current prices guarantee that. $300 for a vendor membership for a sole proprietor like me or even (or especially) $175 for the hobbyist or random dabbler is a LOT of money for any forum, much less one that only has 1100 members, no matter how rabid those members might be when it comes to buying kitchen knives. Like I said, I am not trying to cause trouble, but merely to lend some perspective.

Eamon Burke
12-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Looooooooock Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiis :begging:

Dave Martell
12-26-2011, 11:11 PM
This thread was supposed to be locked on 12/24. There had been plenty of time given for everyone to say what they needed to say on the subject. The thread is now locked.