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DevinT
11-16-2011, 09:56 PM
I've ordered a small amount of steel that I would describe as spicy white steel.

It has the same chemical make up as white steel but with a very small amount of a grain refining alloy added. It is cleaner than white steel specs.

This steel has very high attainable hardness at 68 hrc. It has good carbide volume with small carbides. With the addition of the grain refining alloy, and carefull forging practice, I think it is possible to make a blade with high hardness and good toughness.

It is possible that Shigefusa knives are made with an alloy similar to this one, but there is no way to know for sure.

I plan on laminating this steel with some 403 on the out side (sanmai). I'll be making one to try and will let you all know what I think.

Many Japanese smiths say that white steel is the best steel for cutlery, we shall see.

Hoss

echerub
11-16-2011, 10:17 PM
Yowza! I think a lot of folks will be curious to hear how this turns out :)

MadMel
11-16-2011, 10:33 PM
If that knife is going to be for sale.... Better start saving up.

tk59
11-17-2011, 01:31 AM
oh man...

JohnnyChance
11-17-2011, 01:36 AM
oh man...

hey you got a prototype devin already!! back of the line!

tk59
11-17-2011, 01:43 AM
hey you got a prototype devin already!! back of the line!So do several people. I need at least two to be different.

DwarvenChef
11-17-2011, 02:49 AM
This could be dangerous :p I have not been able to check out Devin's other carbon knives as I know it will get me shot by the wife :p

oivind_dahle
11-17-2011, 06:20 AM
Get in line here to suckers! Muahhahaaha

Marko Tsourkan
11-17-2011, 12:23 PM
I want one (san mai billet) :)

Eamon Burke
11-17-2011, 05:52 PM
What do you forging types mean by "spicy"? I never could figure that out.

WildBoar
11-17-2011, 06:05 PM
I believe it is in reference to there being some other things in the steel mix that alter the properties a little.

DevinT
11-17-2011, 07:05 PM
Yep, it means to me that there is some added alloy to a steel. Shigefusa describes the steel they use as spicy. This steel has the same chemical make up as white steel except it has a small amount of grain refining alloy added, making it spicy.

Hoss

JBroida
11-17-2011, 07:58 PM
Shigefusa describes the steel they use as spicy

I'm pretty sure that was someone here, but still made me laugh

DevinT
11-17-2011, 09:19 PM
DrNaka quoted Iizukasan as stating that he uses spicy Swedish carbon steel.

I use the term spicy white steel to differentiate between the two.

I'm pretty sure that Hitachi copied the steels produced in Sweden. Steels with 1.25% plain carbon that are water quenched made in Sweden were made specifically for cutlery.

Hoss

Eamon Burke
11-17-2011, 10:34 PM
hmmmm interesting. Can't wait to see how these turn out! My least favorite thing about my shige is the reactivity, but it is worth it, because one of my favorite things is the crazy patinas!

Rottman
11-18-2011, 10:34 AM
hmmmm interesting. Can't wait to see how these turn out! My least favorite thing about my shige is the reactivity, but it is worth it, because one of my favorite things is the crazy patinas!
But the reactivity comes from the cladding not the core steel....

tk59
11-18-2011, 11:11 AM
+1. On another note, I find the orange patina on Shigs off-putting.

JohnnyChance
11-18-2011, 11:16 AM
+1. On another note, I find the orange patina on Shigs off-putting.

What, too rust-like for your tastes?

EdipisReks
11-18-2011, 11:35 AM
+1. On another note, I find the orange patina on Shigs off-putting.

i haven't gotten that on mine since i put a bright polish on it.

tk59
11-18-2011, 11:57 AM
What, too rust-like for your tastes?Yeah, something inside me needs to rub it out with sandpaper. It hurts to hold back...

tk59
11-18-2011, 11:59 AM
i haven't gotten that on mine since i put a bright polish on it.So you're liking the polished version, in general over the original finish?

EdipisReks
11-18-2011, 12:14 PM
So you're liking the polished version, in general over the original finish?

yeah. i went back to a satin brushed for a while (not quite the original finish, but pretty close), but i didn't like how it felt going through food compared to the bright polish. with the brushed finish it also tended to react strongly (it's funny to get perfect outlines of onion slices that were on the blade for a second or two) and it doesn't react much at all with the bright polish.

tk59
11-18-2011, 12:38 PM
Thanks. I might have to try that.

RRLOVER
11-18-2011, 10:20 PM
A stainless clad shigi.......sounds like a winner to me.

Eamon Burke
11-18-2011, 10:52 PM
+1. On another note, I find the orange patina on Shigs off-putting.

Cantaloupes. Cut up cantaloupes with it, gone, but the patina remains. Makes for some nasty cantaloupes though.

ajhuff
11-18-2011, 11:05 PM
What exactly is Swedish Steel, spicy or not? All that means to me is steel produced in Sweden and could be anything. I believe there are about a dozen steel producers in Sweden.

-AJ

JohnnyChance
11-19-2011, 05:04 AM
What exactly is Swedish Steel, spicy or not? All that means to me is steel produced in Sweden and could be anything. I believe there are about a dozen steel producers in Sweden.

-AJ

Nobody knows for sure, it's Shigefusa's secret. It was chosen because it most resembled quality tamahagane steel. Or so the story goes.

mainaman
11-19-2011, 07:55 AM
Nobody knows for sure, it's Shigefusa's secret. It was chosen because it most resembled quality tamahagane steel. Or so the story goes.
From what Dr Naka told me, the choice was primarily because the quality was much more consistent than the corresponding Japanese made steels.

Eamon Burke
11-19-2011, 09:51 AM
It really is interesting to see how Mr. Thomas' "spicy" steel turns out.

Marko Tsourkan
11-19-2011, 10:22 PM
I know Devin likes cayenne, so expect it to be in the steel.

tk59
11-20-2011, 01:35 AM
Nobody knows for sure, it's Shigefusa's secret...I'm sure there are a lot of people that know. I'm surprised no one here knows.

RRLOVER
11-20-2011, 10:25 AM
I'm sure there are a lot of people that know. I'm surprised no one here knows.


Ditto.......I find it hard to believe a foundry can make a profit by making a batch of steel for just one knife maker.

JohnnyChance
11-20-2011, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the only ones to use it. But if you don't tell anyone what you are using, tough to know if someone else is using the same thing. Especially with different heat treats, cladding, etc.

tk59
11-20-2011, 05:55 PM
Iwasaki (and whoever is working for/with him), Shigefusa (et al) and Heiji (et al) all use the same steel, most likely with the same HT. How many people is that? Sounds like a crowd to me. It's probalby a combiniation of a well kept secret and that there probably just aren't a whole lot of people that care.

Dave Martell
11-20-2011, 11:20 PM
I know Devin likes cayenne, so expect it to be in the steel.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Devin sprinkled some magic powder in the stack while welding it up. :)

DevinT
11-21-2011, 06:18 PM
The steel came in today. The chemical cert says that it has 1.27% C, .007 P, .001 S with a few other standard elements and a very small amount of grain refining alloy.

It is some of the cleanest steel I've ever seen.

I'll laminate some this week I hope. (sanmai with 403 stainless on the out side)

Hoss

tk59
11-21-2011, 06:39 PM
SWEET. I can't wait to see what you think of it.

obtuse
11-21-2011, 07:28 PM
yup! can't wait

kalaeb
11-21-2011, 10:39 PM
The steel came in today. The chemical cert says that it has 1.27% C, .007 P, .001 S with a few other standard elements and a very small amount of grain refining alloy.

It is some of the cleanest steel I've ever seen.

I'll laminate some this week I hope. (sanmai with 403 stainless on the out side)

Hoss

You should probably try that with something basic, like a square, cleaverish in shape, but not as tall and thin it out bit, just to see how it does. The pm me for who may be able to purchase your experimentation. :D

JohnnyChance
11-22-2011, 01:44 AM
The steel came in today. The chemical cert says that it has 1.27% C, .007 P, .001 S with a few other standard elements and a very small amount of grain refining alloy.

It is some of the cleanest steel I've ever seen.

I'll laminate some this week I hope. (sanmai with 403 stainless on the out side)

Hoss

Sounds promising!

DevinT
11-22-2011, 03:12 PM
I heat treated a sample of the steel last night. It was 67+ out of the quench and 64.5 after tempering. I'll probably take it to 63rc. This stuff , like expected, resists tempering. I broke it to look at the fracture grain size. It has a very fine grain. It looks as fine as AEB-L. Lookin good so far.

Hoss

El Pescador
11-22-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm in.

Justin0505
11-22-2011, 04:15 PM
What's that Devin? A spicy pass-around knife coming soon?!? Why yes, sign me up please :)

ajhuff
11-22-2011, 04:17 PM
I heat treated a sample of the steel last night. It was 67+ out of the quench and 64.5 after tempering. I'll probably take it to 63rc. This stuff , like expected, resists tempering. I broke it to look at the fracture grain size. It has a very fine grain. It looks as fine as AEB-L. Lookin good so far.

Hoss

Ah ha!!!! For a year now I've been puzzled how people on so many forums claim a steel is fine grained without ever seeing any photomicrographs. Now I get it!! You're looking at fracture surfaces! Sometimes I'm a bit slow. :(

-AJ

DevinT
11-22-2011, 04:53 PM
100x magnification

Hoss


Ah ha!!!! For a year now I've been puzzled how people on so many forums claim a steel is fine grained without ever seeing any photomicrographs. Now I get it!! You're looking at fracture surfaces! Sometimes I'm a bit slow. :(

-AJ

Bill Burke
11-22-2011, 09:51 PM
hey Hoss you could be a pal and send a small piece of that to Idaho :) well not too small

DevinT
11-22-2011, 10:00 PM
How much do you want?

Hoss


hey Hoss you could be a pal and send a small piece of that to Idaho :) well not too small

kalaeb
11-22-2011, 10:27 PM
It occured to me that I am halfway between two of the best knifemakers in the world. Perhaps Devin andBill should meet in the SLC to discuss spicy steel and bring samples. Hehe. Hoss, you are making this pretty irresistable. I hope it all works out good for you.

Marko Tsourkan
11-22-2011, 10:36 PM
It's irresistible because it is spicy. People used to travel half around the world to get those. :)

jmforge
11-26-2011, 01:37 AM
Bailey Bradshaw showed me a quick and dirty little trick for determining if he had gotten the grain size down without having to break a blade, but it might not work on kitchen knives because of the fine edge and bevel geometry unless you try it before you do your final shaping. He told me that when you put the edge on the blade on the belt grinder, if you are able to draw out a long, floppy wire edge, then you have some pretty fine grain. Like I said, quick and dirty, but perhaps more helpful to find out if you screwed up your heat treat and DON"T have fine grain.:D
Ah ha!!!! For a year now I've been puzzled how people on so many forums claim a steel is fine grained without ever seeing any photomicrographs. Now I get it!! You're looking at fracture surfaces! Sometimes I'm a bit slow. :(

-AJ

tk59
11-26-2011, 01:53 AM
That makes sense. You must have posted that before because I couldn't shake the feeling of deja vu.

DevinT
11-26-2011, 11:16 AM
It occured to me that I am halfway between two of the best knifemakers in the world. Perhaps Devin andBill should meet in the SLC to discuss spicy steel and bring samples. Hehe. Hoss, you are making this pretty irresistable. I hope it all works out good for you.

Maybe you should make the trip to Panaca.

Hoss

El Pescador
11-26-2011, 11:19 AM
Maybe you should make the trip to Panaca.

Hoss

It is now written. You must make the pilgrimage. Bring snacks.

tk59
11-26-2011, 11:47 AM
Spoken like a true believer. ;)

jmforge
12-06-2011, 11:38 PM
Devin, how much manganese does the new spicy steel have in it?

tk59
12-06-2011, 11:44 PM
Devin, how much manganese does the new spicy steel have in it?Why manganese, in particulare?

El Pescador
12-07-2011, 12:02 AM
It's spicy, not salty.

DevinT
12-07-2011, 12:28 AM
Devin, how much manganese does the new spicy steel have in it?

.40 Mn

Hoss

DevinT
12-07-2011, 12:32 AM
Why manganese, in particulare?

Mn determines if it is water hardening or oil hardening.

Hoss

jmforge
12-07-2011, 02:06 AM
And whether or not you can readily produce a super sexy spicy hamon. Sounds like it might be time to break out the Satanite and the cake decorating bag, Hoss. :D
Mn determines if it is water hardening or oil hardening.

Hoss

tk59
12-07-2011, 08:38 AM
I see. Thanks.

DevinT
12-11-2011, 12:57 AM
I just got the knife done. The heat treating went well. I forged the steel at low temps, then annealed it, cold forged the blade, did some conditioning quenches, final quench, subzero quench, and a double temper. I wondered if the subzero quench would cause some cracking but it didn't. I think that the additional grain refining steps helped. Hardness is at about 63-64 hrc.

Just waiting for the epoxy to harden all the way so that I can put an edge on it and try it out. Plan on making soup tomorrow. I'll keep everyone informed on what I think of the steel. Then it's off to JC for some pro kitchen use.

Hoss

tk59
12-11-2011, 01:19 AM
Can't wait. :)

DevinT
12-11-2011, 01:57 AM
Here it is.

kalaeb
12-11-2011, 02:01 AM
Looks good. Stainless clad?

Aphex
12-11-2011, 02:04 AM
A stainless san-mai with a "spicy" core sounds like my ideal gyuto.

DevinT
12-11-2011, 02:23 AM
Looks good. Stainless clad?

Yes

I just sharpened it. It took an extremely keen edge as one would expect. I'm liking it so far.

Hoss

obtuse
12-11-2011, 04:05 AM
very nice, I wish I could give it a test run

tk59
12-11-2011, 10:41 AM
Very nice! Looks like a narrow profiled gyuto. I like it! It just needs a nice dark handle, lol. :D

tgraypots
12-11-2011, 10:51 AM
I understand the satanite part, but are you saying apply it like decorating a cake, through a little nozzle?


And whether or not you can readily produce a super sexy spicy hamon. Sounds like it might be time to break out the Satanite and the cake decorating bag, Hoss. :D

WildBoar
12-11-2011, 11:43 AM
Very nice! Looks like a narrow profiled gyuto. I like it! x2 profile looks great! And I really like the light handle :2cents:

jmforge
12-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Yes. sir. Actually, I use John White's trick of cutting the corner off of a ziploc bag. Cheaper than messing up your pastry bag.
I understand the satanite part, but are you saying apply it like decorating a cake, through a little nozzle?

JohnnyChance
12-12-2011, 04:16 AM
I like the narrower profile, maybe my favorite profile of yours to date!

The cladding looks more even behind the edge towards the tip than your previous san mai prototypes. Did you construct this one differently? Forge the tip a little to spread the stainless out a bit more to cover the core?

mpukas
12-14-2011, 05:58 PM
Man, Devin - I'm really, really liking the profile and steel of this knife! I agree w/ a previous post - this could be my ideal gyuto!!!

What is the grind like? How thin behind the edge and at the spine?

Are you gonna make this knife with this steel available for your customers to purchase? Cheers!!! mpp

DevinT
12-15-2011, 03:37 PM
The owner should get it today. I cut with the knife for a couple of hours and love it. It held up very well.

We'll see what the owner thinks. Should be able to offer some for sale some time.

Hoss

echerub
12-15-2011, 03:40 PM
:D

Hey, is that my wallet running away and hiding in a dark corner? :)

Justin0505
12-15-2011, 04:17 PM
Wow, exciting stuff Devin! I'm very interested in this too...and by the time my spot in line comes up, you'll have mastered it 8 times over.