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NO ChoP!
12-10-2011, 12:46 PM
Did anyone else notice the price increase on the latest batch over @ %*&!????

Seems to be about 40%........

Pensacola Tiger
12-10-2011, 12:53 PM
Ouch!

kalaeb
12-10-2011, 12:55 PM
Yes, I noticed that too, I was going to email mark to see if it was a typo, lol. Hopefully it means more money for Devin. I will say that it is still a great knife at the new price.

Iceman91
12-10-2011, 01:16 PM
Pretty wild, almost $500 for a 240, i think i payed $340 when i got mine way back.

tk59
12-10-2011, 01:21 PM
Well, if they are selling out at $350, why not raise the price, right? Plus, if Pierre is going to be running mid-techs there, I would imagine they aren't going to be $200, lol. You think Devin's are going to be the same price? Who knows? Maybe they are going to be better or more consistent than previous batches. Very interesting. That's getting close to Devin's custom pricing. Maybe the customs are going to go up, too?

Cadillac J
12-10-2011, 01:26 PM
Damn, that's a pretty big jump. It's been a year since I've sold mine...if only I could of held out and made a small profit.

Peco
12-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Many gyutos have a pricetag around $500 - so guess it's not a big deal ...

99Limited
12-10-2011, 01:54 PM
I talked to Mark about the price increase yesterday. At the old price Devin didn't have enough incentive to make very many and chose to spend more time on his custom orders. At this new price point Mark is hoping Devin will be able to increase production of the mid-tech offerings.

mc2442
12-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Very glad I got mine when I did. Think it was the last batch, received it early summer?

heirkb
12-10-2011, 02:41 PM
I talked to Mark about the price increase yesterday. At the old price Devin didn't have enough incentive to make very many and chose to spend more time on his custom orders. At this new price point Mark is hoping Devin will be able to increase production of the mid-tech offerings.

We'll just have to see if the sales keep up enough after the price increase to make that true.

Andrew H
12-10-2011, 02:45 PM
We'll just have to see if the sales keep up enough after the price increase to make that true.

Yup. It looks much more attractive, to me at least, at $340. If there is an improvement in quality like TK said obviously that would be different.

l r harner
12-10-2011, 02:55 PM
i had wandered how devin was making any $ at all on the old price

99Limited
12-10-2011, 03:31 PM
I'm just glad as hell that I bought my 270 and 240 out of the last batch. That pair was almost $300 less that what they cost now. I was going to pickup a 210 just to round out my ITKs but I think I'll save my money for something else. At the old price the knives seemed to bet bought up pretty quickly. That seems to me to indicate that they were underpriced. I think the new price has gone a little too far in the other direction, but being the holidays maybe people will snatch them up anyway.

Seb
12-10-2011, 03:40 PM
It's been mentioned that the price hike will mean the new batches will have better F&F.

kalaeb
12-10-2011, 04:31 PM
It's been mentioned that the price hike will mean the new batches will have better F&F.

The old batches had pretty dang good fit and finish, in fact, I am not sure it can get much better, save burl handles and mosiac pins.

Mingooch
12-10-2011, 05:58 PM
Sadly I was looking to buy one. Now I lost interest. I would sooner spend just a little extra and get a custom at that price point.

tk59
12-10-2011, 06:25 PM
Definitely.

mpukas
12-10-2011, 07:40 PM
Sadly I was looking to buy one. Now I lost interest. I would sooner spend just a little extra and get a custom at that price point.

I feel the same. I really wanted to get one since I've heard so much praise. But @ $540 for a 270 that's in the price range of too many other knives that are prolly "better."

DevinT
12-10-2011, 08:19 PM
Sorry about the price increase.

We just couldn't make any money at the old price. I was trying to keep the price down. I found that the expectation was too high for the price and decided to put more work into them and charge more money.

We have never upped the price since we started making them two years ago. A full custom is 1 1/2 times what these are.

They are thinner, straighter, and over all cleaner.

Hoss

jmforge
12-10-2011, 08:19 PM
Sadly I was looking to buy one. Now I lost interest. I would sooner spend just a little extra and get a custom at that price point. Assuming that the custom makers will sell you one at that price point after seeing this thread. :lol2:

jmforge
12-10-2011, 08:21 PM
Glad you can get fair prices for your work, Hoss. That is tough to do over in the regular knife world these days, let me tell you!!!!
Sorry about the price increase.

We just couldn't make any money at the old price. I was trying to keep the price down. I found that the expectation was too high for the price and decided to put more work into them and charge more money.

We have never upped the price since we started making them two years ago. A full custom is 1 1/2 times what these are.

They are thinner, straighter, and over all cleaner.

Hoss

bcrano
12-10-2011, 08:46 PM
..

Marko Tsourkan
12-10-2011, 09:25 PM
I feel the same. I really wanted to get one since I've heard so much praise. But @ $540 for a 270 that's in the price range of too many other knives that are prolly "better."

Depends what "better" is. If you value performance, i.e. edge retention, grind, sharpen-ability, I can't think of many knives out there that are distinctly better in this price range. If you mean cheaper, yes, there are plenty crappy knives that are cheaper. There also plenty of crappy knives that are more expensive, or on par with ITK price.

For a knife that has a top notch heat treatment, excellent steel, excellent geometry, excellent fit and finish (at new prices), excellent handle, all work done on premises (with exception of water-jet cutting), grinding and finishing all by Devin, why are his prices out of ordinary? These are semi-custom knives.

M

jmforge
12-10-2011, 09:38 PM
AND Hoss takes a haircut on the ones that are sold through retailers regardless of the price. If water jet cutting is all that is being done outside of his shop, then I question even calling these knives "mid tech" unless one considers the use of a metal cutting bandsaw to be an essential part of the artistic process.:D
Depends what "better" is. If you value performance, i.e. edge retention, grind, sharpen-ability, I can't think of many knives out there that are distinctly better in this price range. If you mean cheaper, yes, there are plenty crappy knives that are cheaper. There also plenty of crappy knives that are more expensive, or on par with ITK price.

For a knife that has a top notch heat treatment, excellent steel, excellent geometry, excellent fit and finish (at new prices), excellent handle, all work done on premises (with exception of water-jet cutting), grinding and finishing all by Devin, why are his prices out of ordinary? These are semi-custom knives.

M

tk59
12-10-2011, 09:41 PM
AND Hoss takes a haircut on the ones that are sold through retailers regardless of the price...I thought it was a complimentary spit-shine. Don't tell me I've been taken! :D

Marko Tsourkan
12-10-2011, 09:48 PM
These were never mid-tech knives, but they were introduced as mid-tech and it stuck to them.

M

welshstar
12-10-2011, 10:15 PM
The DT knives are great but for a stock knife a 50% increase seems very steep.

Do people like Marko, Dave M, Mike Davis etc lose money when they make a 240 knife ? it seems to me as a layman that these makers put more custom effort into one of their knives, especially in terms of F&F. I can see the DT knives being great knives but they do not have the f&f to justify a 50% hike

If CTKG can get these higher prices though and still sell out then why wouldnt they, will be interesting to see if the used ones go up now with people trying to cash in.

Alan

WildBoar
12-10-2011, 10:15 PM
I really like my 240 ITK (stainless), but I don't think you could pry the carbon petty out of my hands even after I've been dead for a year. Truely a wonderful knife.

We had a couple retired chefs over for dinner last night, and they were looking at my knifes kinda asking 'why?'. In fact, one brought a couple food-service knives with him to prep some food for a catering job he had today. The other guy picked up the petty to mince a shallot, and basically said "holy crap, what is this thing? It is really, really sharp!"

I hope to have a DT custom one day to go with the ITKs. But I am not unhappy at all with what I already have :happymug:

Eamon Burke
12-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Yep. They were too dang cheap before.

Don't tell me you guys haven't all dropped $400+ on a great knife before. Seriously.

kalaeb
12-10-2011, 10:29 PM
I can see the DT knives being great knives but they do not have the f&f to justify a 50% hike

Alan

Respectfully, I have to disagree, first off, IMO, they were priced too low to begin with, secondly they certainly do have the fit and finish to justify the new price. Considering that Devin now says he is going to put more work into them to make them that much better makes them still an attractive option, especially considering his phenomenal knife making skills.

ThEoRy
12-10-2011, 10:31 PM
The DT knives are great but for a stock knife a 50% increase seems very steep.

Do people like Marko, Dave M, Mike Davis etc lose money when they make a 240 knife ? it seems to me as a layman that these makers put more custom effort into one of their knives, especially in terms of F&F. I can see the DT knives being great knives but they do not have the f&f to justify a 50% hike

If CTKG can get these higher prices though and still sell out then why wouldnt they, will be interesting to see if the used ones go up now with people trying to cash in.

Alan

Did you read Devin's comment? He's going to put more work into each knife making them better than they were previously therefore justifying the increase.

welshstar
12-10-2011, 10:42 PM
It must just be me

Im just struggling to recall the last time i got a 50% pay rise, oh hang on that was never !!! Ill try telling my boss on Monday that im going to work harder and put in more effort so I should get a 50% raise !!

Whats the next thread " why Kramers are great value at $6000"

jmforge
12-10-2011, 10:47 PM
(cue irritating Snagglepuss voice) A loss leader, even.:D
I thought it was a complimentary spit-shine. Don't tell me I've been taken! :D

Johnny.B.Good
12-10-2011, 10:56 PM
Do people like Marko, Dave M, Mike Davis etc lose money when they make a 240 knife ? it seems to me as a layman that these makers put more custom effort into one of their knives, especially in terms of F&F. I can see the DT knives being great knives but they do not have the f&f to justify a 50% hike

Do you own one of Devin's knives Alan? Do you own a knife made by Dave, Marko, or Mike? You talk pretty confidently about the fit and finish provided by all of these makers, so I assume you have at least handled a knife or two from all of them. Obviously someone thinks Devin's knives have the "f&f to justify a 50% hike" or the increase wouldn't be happening. And the market will decide if it is a good idea, not the "layman" commenter. If they sell out at the new price, I would consider the hike justified.

Pensacola Tiger
12-10-2011, 11:02 PM
It must just be me

Im just struggling to recall the last time i got a 50% pay rise, oh hang on that was never !!! Ill try telling my boss on Monday that im going to work harder and put in more effort so I should get a 50% raise !!

Whats the next thread " why Kramers are great value at $6000"

Go over to KF and read the thread in the CKTG vendor sub forum. Part of the price increase is because Devin can make more money doing high-end customs than he can the ITKs. It's a reflection of what his time is worth, and it seems as if there's a whole lot of his time that goes into making an ITK, and all the increase is doing is adjusting the ITK price in line with this.

Or, to put it another way, it's like your boss deciding to have you work on project 'X' that returns 50% more profit that project 'Y'. He'll put you back on 'Y' if he can raise the price of project 'Y' to compete with 'X', otherwise, project 'Y' will not go forward. It's just business.

Marko Tsourkan
12-10-2011, 11:05 PM
Wasn't there Misono 50% price increase recently? Didn't Japanese knife prices go through a roof in the last 5 years (Nenox, Watanabe, Takeda to mention a few) some by as much as 100%?

So, for ITK knives to increase price by 50% in two years, from a starting price that was fairly low for semi-custom knives doesn't sound excessive.

I got to add that I hope they sell out as quickly as Devin can make them, for these are not factory-made, mid-tech labeled knives, they have better heat treatment (in-house) than majority knives on the market, and they perform. The finish will be better but fit has always been fairly good, or on par with higher priced Japanese.


M

Johnny.B.Good
12-10-2011, 11:06 PM
It's just business.

Agreed. Also "just business" is raising the price of a product that is so popular you cannot keep it in stock. Good for Devin.

welshstar
12-10-2011, 11:11 PM
I do not own knives made by Marko or Dave

I do own knives made by Mike and I have had a DT ITK 270 but sold it because I was not a big fan, it wasnt a quality issue I just never clicked with it.

It seems as if im not explaining myself very well, I have no problem with the product at all, its just that in todays society with everyones personal finances going to crap ( including mine ) i just get dont think everyone should sit back and let a vendor increase prices by 50% maybe its just frustration with life coming out !!!

The kitchen knife world is strange, i thought chefs were a poor group of people who were underpaid, yet everyone seems so willing and even encouraging of these price hikes !!

Alan

kalaeb
12-10-2011, 11:22 PM
It was either price hike or don't make them because at the old rate there was no profit.

Marko Tsourkan
12-10-2011, 11:24 PM
I think one has to differentiate between an upcoming maker (some-part time or hobbyists working from their garages) and an established maker with an overhead. Not in so distant past, Bob Kramer's custom 8" chef (52100) was selling for $499. It's selling now for at least 3 times more.

It comes down to what one's time is worth.

M

WildBoar
12-10-2011, 11:56 PM
i just get dont think everyone should sit back and let a vendor increase prices by 50% maybe its just frustration with life coming out !!!

The best way to not sit back is to refuse to buy one. DT made a few batches, they were more time consuming then initially expected, so at the selling price really not worth his time. He probably did us all a favor by making as many as he did at those prices.

No one is forcing anyone to buy any of the knives discussed on this forum.

JohnnyChance
12-11-2011, 12:01 AM
It seems as if im not explaining myself very well, I have no problem with the product at all, its just that in todays society with everyones personal finances going to crap ( including mine ) i just get dont think everyone should sit back and let a vendor increase prices by 50% maybe its just frustration with life coming out !!!

Occupy Panaca!!

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 12:04 AM
Occupy Panaca!!

I would be in, but it is too hard to get to. 3 hours outside Las Vegas by car, though a pretty scenic route. Would be definitely worth it. Devin's soup is the best. :)

M

Larrin
12-11-2011, 12:29 AM
Occupy Panaca!!
Funniest comment ever. You guys could triple the population.

jmforge
12-11-2011, 12:29 AM
The part time and hobbyist maker glut has, IMO, almost destroyed the non-kitchen side of the custom knife market because the number of knifemakers has far outstripped the number of collectors in the last 20 years.. That has not happened yet in the kitchen knife market. Just encourage way too many makers to start making kitchen knives and you will be able to drive the prices back down to early 1990's level (with better quality) like has happened in the case of many, if not the vast majority of the ABS makers like myself.:D
I think one has to differentiate between an upcoming maker (some-part time or hobbyists working from their garages) and an established maker with an overhead. Not in so distant past, Bob Kramer's custom 8" chef (52100) was selling for $499. It's selling now for at least 3 times more.

It comes down to what one's time is worth.

M

Eamon Burke
12-11-2011, 12:32 AM
It seems as if im not explaining myself very well, I have no problem with the product at all, its just that in todays society with everyones personal finances going to crap ( including mine ) i just get dont think everyone should sit back and let a vendor increase prices by 50% maybe its just frustration with life coming out !!!

The kitchen knife world is strange, i thought chefs were a poor group of people who were underpaid, yet everyone seems so willing and even encouraging of these price hikes !!


Your finances are going to crap, not everyone's. The money did not evaporate. There is more of it now than ever--but it's being taken from you. If you want a pay increase when your product is worth a lot more and you can increase quality and focus on one item and make it worth your time, you can--unless there is some boss telling you to work harder and give them all the money, in return for a steady income.

1965 average hourly wage in a factory was $19.61. Now, it is $19.71.
1965 average hourly wage for a CEO was $490.31. Now, it is $5,419.97.

If you want to Occupy, occupy your own life--stop asking your boss permission for a better quality of life. I think Devin is running a phenomenal business, and he sells dammy left and right, and his knives are spot-on American craftsmanship. They were underpriced, and since we care about having guys like him in this world, we're happy to pay him for it.

Sorry if it came off ranty-ful, I didn't mean to :soapbox:. I am just passionate about self-employment and apprenticeship.

DevinT
12-11-2011, 12:37 AM
Sorry to those that are offended by the increase in price.

I don't make that much money. We struggle to make payroll every week. I have to raise the price or stop making them.

The new price is closer to the industry standard.

Hoss

jm2hill
12-11-2011, 12:43 AM
Sorry to those that are offended by the increase in price.

I don't make that much money. We struggle to make payroll every week. I have to raise the price or stop making them.

The new price is closer to the industry standard.

Hoss

I don't think anyone is blaming you Hoss, its more just the state of the world currently. Everyone has to increase prices. If you look at the prices of CKTG regularly item's will slowly jump up as popularity grows on them.

And you are also putting more work into them and not simply just raising the prices. I think that speaks for something by itself.

WildBoar
12-11-2011, 12:51 AM
It's understandable you need the knives to be at a certain price point in order to take the time to make them vs producing damascus billets or custom knives. People are always unhappy with price increases, and just because the economy is down doesn't mean specific businesses are not allowed to increase pricing. After all, raw material prices are up quite a bit the last few years, as well as health insurance costs, plus the Gov't wants those who work and pay their bills to pony up more $ to cover those that do not.

Just promise you won't raise your spoon prices :bat: :)

tk59
12-11-2011, 12:53 AM
...No one is forcing anyone to buy any of the knives discussed on this forum.+1 This thread is so full of BS, it's hilarious. Hoss can put whatever price on them, he sees fit. If you think the "advertisement" is misleading or he's a fraud as a knifemaker, that's one thing. If you don't think his knives are worth the price, don't buy them! There are thousands of choices out there, lol. I, for one, believe this probably a good thing for the DTITK line. I think the extra time put into these could result in a consistantly better product that more accurately reflects the quality Hoss is capable of.

JohnnyChance
12-11-2011, 12:54 AM
This reminds of when people complained they had to start buying their downloaded music from itunes or amazon instead of stealing it. It was way under priced before, now it is reasonably priced.

I noticed the slow down in ITK production (why make ITKs at little or no profit when your time is better spent making more profitable customs? no brainer, really), and combined with the super rapid sales once they became available, I prefer this model. A fairer price for Devin and family, more ITK production, better ITK product, and maybe less rapid sales/stock on shelves so it's not such a crap shoot to get one.

Johnny.B.Good
12-11-2011, 12:56 AM
It annoys me that Devin feels the need to defend his pricing. No wonder Bob Kramer avoids knife forums. Fair market value is whatever the market will pay. It's not like he is selling sandbags at a 50% markup in the middle of a flood. There are plenty of options out there. If you feel Devin's knives are not worth the price he is asking, guess what? You don't have to buy one! It's one thing to say you don't feel they are a good value, or that there are better options for the money, but it's quite another to begrudge his success. I would never pay $6,000 (or $25,000) for a Kramer, but he sounds like a nice guy and if he can get it, more power to him.

wsfarrell
12-11-2011, 01:03 AM
I'm sure I'll be flamed to oblivion for this, but I've been looking at knives for sale by maker at bladeforums for a while now, and I've posted below some links to recently-sold kitchen knives. These were all hand-forged, ground, heat-treated and handled in-house. Some have hamons, some have bolsters, and all have "western" handles requiring considerably more fitting than wa handles. If these guys can make a profit selling these knives at these prices (and there are dozens more like these), it just isn't clear to me how DT was hurting at $340 for a pre-cut blank.

Ryan Weeks chef knife: $210 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/888195-RyanW-Chef-s-Knife-1095-amp-Redwood-Burl?highlight=kitchen)
David Loukides santoku: $220 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/828002-Santoko-Chef-knife-out-of-W2-SOLD?highlight=kitchen)
Phillip Patton chef knife: $300 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/757293-Chef-s-knife?highlight=kitchen)

What am I missing?

tk59
12-11-2011, 01:17 AM
No flaming required, haha. I'm not sure why you think western handles are more difficult to do than wa. Regardless, I've tried out dozens of knives from a number of different custom knifemakers. Most of them don't cut food worth $hit and I'm not kidding. The three I know that can consistently make an outstanding knife are Devin, Murray and Rottman.

JBroida
12-11-2011, 01:27 AM
dont count out the japanese guys ;)

ThEoRy
12-11-2011, 01:33 AM
What am I missing?

This...


This is my first kitchen knife

Also 5.5" blade.

tk59
12-11-2011, 01:36 AM
dont count out the japanese guys ;)My bad. Japanese knifemakers' knives are such great cutters, in general, I seem to have taken them for granted. A lot of them have made hundreds if not thousands of excellent knives and learned to make them by apprenticing with someone that made hundreds or thousands of excellent knives before them. That's hard to compete with.

Johnny.B.Good
12-11-2011, 01:48 AM
What am I missing?

You think these guys wouldn't be charging Devin's prices if they could? Devin should keep increasing his prices until the company that carries his knives can keep them in stock for a few days.

jmforge
12-11-2011, 02:01 AM
Many of those bladesmiths may not know that there are people out there who will pay a fair price for an outstanding kitchen knife (and actually use it for its intended purpose) even if your name isn't Jerry Fisk, Harvey Dean, Larry Fuegen or what have you. I sure didn't until I started coming on this forum. People keep saying that Hoss' time is too valuable to be making these knives for less when he could be making customs. This is true in part, but remember also that he makes a LOT of damascus so making knives in general be they custom or semi custom, has to make enough money i order for him to take time away from making his steel. It goes without saying that the highest and best use of his time is probably making custom knives out of his own damascus, but if the other lines make financial sense, then he can make those. While custom damascus knives can be very profitable, they market for them is fairly limited, whereas, I would think that the market for knives like the ITK line is arguably much larger. Pretty much anyone who has shelled out serious bucks for a really good Japanese kitchen knife is a potential customer. Personally, I am surpised that more makers haven't gotten on the "buy American" bandwagon when it comes to kitchen knives. :lol2:
You think these guys wouldn't be charging Devin's prices if they could? Devin should keep increasing his prices until the company that carries his knives can keep them in stock for a few days.

oivind_dahle
12-11-2011, 04:11 AM
Nice Devin

Love your work, still your knives are to cheap. So I hope you continue to raise the prices.
People who have a problem with that you should ignore, nobody works for free :)
Seems like folks focusing only on price will get what they deserve, a low-tech cheap knife made in China.
Lots of customers will pay what you charge, and when the home market gets more into high end cutlery, you will have customers with lots of money interested in buying your knives.

The problem you have Devin, is to marketing your knives to these people. Nerds on this forum is not your future customers, and you should find a way to reach the other markets. C K T G is ok, he gets more and more customers due to internet shopping. Hows your MS title coming, any plans to take it?

I got 3 ITKs. Love em all :)
When will we see the ITK parer?

mr drinky
12-11-2011, 06:40 AM
If Devin does his numbers and they come up higher, then that is what it is. Even at the new prices, I personally think they are worth it. There are always other custom makers and the many Japanese makers too if you want something less expensive.

At some point Dave and Marko will raise their prices too.

k.

welshstar
12-11-2011, 07:24 AM
Thats my concern

Everyone is saying that its OK for Devin to raise his prices to whatever he can get, I dont blame Devin for doing that at all I would probably do the same.

Now if all the other makers think hang on, why should i charge $350-$400 when Devin gets $500-$600, we have just rasied the price point of everything by 30%+

I know it sounds selfish but one of the things that atrracted me to high end knives was how affordable they are.In my other main hobby of hifi this approach of charging what you can get for a product has led to things like $20,000 speaker cables and $100,000 amplifiers, it is at a point where you have to be expensive or people think its lower quality.

All markets are the same, prices are set from the top down. Be prepared in a year or two that any good quality knife will be $600-$1000, the $300-$500 will be a fond memory.

As long as your cool with paying those prices then no problem.

Alan

memorael
12-11-2011, 07:40 AM
Thats my concern

Everyone is saying that its OK for Devin to raise his prices to whatever he can get, I dont blame Devin for doing that at all I would probably do the same.

Now if all the other makers think hang on, why should i charge $350-$400 when Devin gets $500-$600, we have just rasied the price point of everything by 30%+

I know it sounds selfish but one of the things that atrracted me to high end knives was how affordable they are.In my other main hobby of hifi this approach of charging what you can get for a product has led to things like $20,000 speaker cables and $100,000 amplifiers, it is at a point where you have to be expensive or people think its lower quality.

All markets are the same, prices are set from the top down. Be prepared in a year or two that any good quality knife will be $600-$1000, the $300-$500 will be a fond memory.

As long as your cool with paying those prices then no problem.

Alan

Hoss raising his prices I think is something that was long over due. I suspect the problem you have with him doing so is that you can no longer buy them as easily as before (that is assuming they were in stock). I understand that also pissed me off, then I remembered if I want one I can just save money and buy it. The guy works hard, is probably the best pattern welded steal knife maker around, and does one hell of a good knife. I don't understand what the whole problem is, take it for what it is. Plus the market will dictate what can and can't be done, all this price increase can only mean that more people will be interested in making better knives since there is money in it and eventually there will be a market flood of people that make great knives and the prices WILL come down.

You go HOSS! make your paper by all means.

Peco
12-11-2011, 07:45 AM
This thread is stupid. Pay what it cost or buy something else - very simple.

memorael
12-11-2011, 08:08 AM
This thread is stupid. Pay what it cost or buy something else - very simple.

Yeah, I really don't understand what all this ranting is about. Nenox charges a lot for their knives which are probably done by machine; the Suisin Inox Honyaki, which I think is comparable in terms of what it is, and probably machine made too, to the ITK knife costs about the same; the misonos I doubt aren't machine made cost about the same. Just pay up if you want one, if it is to pricey as simple as they probably won't be made anymore since Hoss can just make his Damy and be done with it.

memorael
12-11-2011, 08:09 AM
PS: I now think I know why some makers don't appear on the forums, to much ranting about their hard work.

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 08:28 AM
I'm sure I'll be flamed to oblivion for this, but I've been looking at knives for sale by maker at bladeforums for a while now, and I've posted below some links to recently-sold kitchen knives. These were all hand-forged, ground, heat-treated and handled in-house. Some have hamons, some have bolsters, and all have "western" handles requiring considerably more fitting than wa handles. If these guys can make a profit selling these knives at these prices (and there are dozens more like these), it just isn't clear to me how DT was hurting at $340 for a pre-cut blank.

Ryan Weeks chef knife: $210 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/888195-RyanW-Chef-s-Knife-1095-amp-Redwood-Burl?highlight=kitchen)
David Loukides santoku: $220 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/828002-Santoko-Chef-knife-out-of-W2-SOLD?highlight=kitchen)
Phillip Patton chef knife: $300 (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/757293-Chef-s-knife?highlight=kitchen)

What am I missing?

They don't look as performance kitchen knives to me. Frankly, they don't look like kitchen knives at all the way we know it here. Obviously, these makers didn't do their homework. If you think their are a fair price, I would say they are overpriced for what they are - hunting knives with somewhat kitchen knives looking profiles. If you got fooled by the last one, scroll down to see a spine shot.

I think Mike Davis mentioned in one of his posts that grinding a good kitchen knife is much harder than a hunting knife. Never ground a hunting knife, so I will take his word for it.

M

oivind_dahle
12-11-2011, 09:02 AM
Ryan Weeks chef knife: $210
David Loukides santoku: $220
Phillip Patton chef knife: $300


They look like ****. **** I hate people comparing to different things, and demanding same price.
Its like complaining on the price on this:
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2011/ferrari/599/
Going insane and arguing about a cars price on 410 000 USD, and comparing it to this:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTG5aR-UwnEZgEuXrGx3DhYXEKvK1CMkVLOMuMqyb6zW77jU2alW0t_UQ wL

I hate cheap mfs, they keep destroying the market for the real makers.
I demand the best and compare the knives to no other. I pay for the best, and its a reason why I bought 2 more itk after my first one.

Peco
12-11-2011, 09:04 AM
Easy now Ø, you were on a budget regarding straightrazors right :D

oivind_dahle
12-11-2011, 09:07 AM
2 different things :)

And you don't see me hanging on a razor forum comparing sh!t to high end razors...

;)

Peco
12-11-2011, 09:10 AM
lol Ø, anyways ... there are many good makers, also Japanese, it's not just a few like you make it sound like ;)

oivind_dahle
12-11-2011, 09:14 AM
There are many makers indeed :)

However the top in US are
Burke
Kramer
Devin
Carter (would be better if he started to use better steel)

Soon to be followed by Marko


Candian maker
Rodrigues

I stopped buying japanese, cause the high end us makers make the japanese makers look like clowns

Peco
12-11-2011, 09:20 AM
Marko didn't even sell a knife yet, how would you know - by looks? Howcome you all of a sudden changed opinion on Carter? A few weeks back you were asking to buy one used. Sorry to say but sometimes it seems like somebody tells you odd stories. I would rather claim that a guy who made 20.000 or more knifes have more knowledge than most of the makers you refer to - even if you add all their experience together. I think it's time to be realistic ;)

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 09:34 AM
OK guys, why don't you get on PM if you want to throw jabs at each other?
Also, please keep my name out of this. You are way out of topic. Both.

Peco
12-11-2011, 09:37 AM
It's all cool M, I just gave an answer (or asked a question) to the above. Won't mention you again!!

oivind_dahle
12-11-2011, 09:50 AM
Marko didn't even sell a knife yet, how would you know - by looks? Howcome you all of a sudden changed opinion on Carter? A few weeks back you were asking to buy one used. Sorry to say but sometimes it seems like somebody tells you odd stories. I would rather claim that a guy who made 20.000 or more knifes have more knowledge than most of the makers you refer to - even if you add all their experience together. I think it's time to be realistic ;)

I have inside information and I know what kind of person Marko is = Hell of a knife (last word on Marko from me in this thread)

I just said Carter was one of the best makers in US - I haven't changed opinion (or have you thought I disliked his knives before)?
I just said Carter should use better steel. White and Blue are not the best steels around, thats why most japanese makers is out of my interest.

Peco
12-11-2011, 09:55 AM
Well if you dislike white and blue I understand your point. That being said, it's good that there's something for everybody: Bill, Carter, Devin, Shig, Heiji etc. It's just a matter of personal preference and needs - thank god for that :D

mainaman
12-11-2011, 10:38 AM
2 different things :)

And you don't see me hanging on a razor forum comparing sh!t to high end razors...

;)it is because the sh!t ones are known and no one buys them.
Comparing knives to razors is not right, completely different animals.

welshstar
12-11-2011, 10:39 AM
Oivind

Why not support the Norwegian economy and pay 3x extra for a knife in Norway ?

Its hardly fair for you to comment on the prices that us US consumers have to pay when we are paid in US dollars and Norwegians have one of the highest per capita incomes in the world.

Of course you dont care what stuff costs over here because its still 50-80% cheaper than in Norway.

Go down to the local Sur La table in Stavanger and pay the going Norwegian rate for a knife like we are discussing which would be i bet 10-15,000 NOK as a minimum

Alan

tk59
12-11-2011, 10:53 AM
I don't mind OD spending his money here. I used to be a wine guy until the prices shot up due to a lot of things one of which was the rise of Japanese and later Chinese buyers. I don't buy the same brands anymore but I wouldn't say I'm hurting, lol. As for Americans putting Japanese to shame, that statement so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. Clearly you haven't used too many high end Japanese knives. If I recall correctly, even the great DarkHoek declared Shigefusa the cutting champ over your precious DTITK. My own DT-ITK is similar in performance to a Shig, I would say. Furthermore, In my experience, Shigs aren't the incredible cutters everyone says they are. Based on my experience and preferences, 99.9% of the best kitchen knives on this planet are still made in Japan. Just a few western makers can hang with the Japanese in terms of performance no matter you cut it.

echerub
12-11-2011, 11:03 AM
I can understand that some folks might be frustrated with the price increase - heck, I'm half kicking myself for not picking up a DT 52100 beforehand - but Devin's got to do what's right for himself and his business. As others have said, we as consumer have a simple choice: buy it at the new price or not.

The 3 other knives linked earlier in the thread look really unappealing and honestly I wouldn't want them if someone gave them to me.

Prices across the board for limited-production and custom knives may go up, that's true. We still have other good choices out there, though, even amongst the higher-volume production offerings.

I know from some of my previous lines of work how hard it can be to raise prices or even set them at a reasonable level when buyers don't truly know the skill and labor that goes into what they're asking for. Devin's got to do what's right for his business, and though I'm not jumping for joy to pay more, I *am* happy that Devin has the skills & reputation to enable him to raise his prices to where he feels they need to be. Honestly, not everyone can do that, and I'm glad that he can.

Mingooch
12-11-2011, 11:07 AM
Sorry about the price increase.

We just couldn't make any money at the old price. I was trying to keep the price down. I found that the expectation was too high for the price and decided to put more work into them and charge more money.

We have never upped the price since we started making them two years ago. A full custom is 1 1/2 times what these are.

They are thinner, straighter, and over all cleaner.

Hoss

Devin, no need to appologize. They sold out so darm fast, supply and demand can justify the increase. I am just mad at myself for not getting one BEFORE it went up. Had I known and one was for sale, I would have grabbed it. At that new point, now I need to save more and the extra bit to get a custom or hope u put out some of the wierd ones like u did a while back that were semi custom experiments that got grabbed up super fast before I could get to a computer that would have allowed me to buy it. I liked those even better than the midtech.

Cadillac J
12-11-2011, 11:26 AM
As for Americans putting Japanese to shame, that statement so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. Clearly you haven't used too many high end Japanese knives...Based on my experience and preferences, 99.9% of the best kitchen knives on this planet are still made in Japan. Just a few western makers can hang with the Japanese in terms of performance no matter you cut it.

Thank god someone addressed Oivind's ignorant comment...its not the first time something he's said has set me off a bit.

Peco
12-11-2011, 11:39 AM
Thank god someone addressed Oivind's ignorant comment...its not the first time something he's said has set me off a bit.
Øivind likes to provoke! That said, sometimes it gets a little out of hand. I just hope that his custom orders are as great as he claim them to be - when they arrive. If not he would have to go back to clowns knifes = Japanese ... that would be a good laugh since most are made in white or blue ...

welshstar
12-11-2011, 11:51 AM
I dont think anyone is taking the Japanese being put to shame comment seriously !!!

Johnny.B.Good
12-11-2011, 11:57 AM
I dont think anyone is taking the Japanese being put to shame comment seriously !!!

I take it about as seriously as I take this:


Be prepared in a year or two that any good quality knife will be $600-$1000, the $300-$500 will be a fond memory.

Which is to say, not very.

Peco
12-11-2011, 12:09 PM
I take it about as seriously as I take this: Which is to say, not very.

:knifed: :D

welshstar
12-11-2011, 12:14 PM
But any Carter/Devin/Pierre etc is now already there for 240 gyuto

After getting feedback from the newer makers, they are basically subsidzing their work as a learning curve. So they will ultimately have to raise prices to sustain the business

So for anything from a small bespoke maker I think this price point is going be a reality very quickly.

After listening to the comments I am going to withdraw my negativity towards the Devin increase and just make sure that I take advantage of what now appear appear to even better than i thought deals from the up and coming makers.

Alan

Peco
12-11-2011, 12:16 PM
But any Carter/Devin/Pierre etc is now already there for 240 gyuto

After getting feedback from the newer makers, they are basically subsidzing their work as a learning curve. So they will ultimately have to raise prices to sustain the business

So for anything from a small bespoke maker I think this price point is going be a reality very quickly.

After listening to the comments I am going to withdraw my negativity towards the Devin increase and just make sure that I take advantage of what now appear appear to even better than i thought deals from the up and coming makers.

Alan

If price is such a big deal - then why go custom?

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't know about rest of you, but I am getting pretty disgusted with this thread.

I think there is as much of putting down US makers as Japanese, and neither side being truly objective - some make statements that contradict the next things they say or have said in the past.

Here is something for you. Here is a finish on a very expensive knife from a maker everybody reveres here.
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attid/157537/

If I leave a similar finish on my knife, even if it's at a fraction of a price, this would be considered a crappy finish.

So, charge what you like Devin. Those who appreciate your work will buy at any price, and those who don't, you will be better off not selling to them at all, as they will find a fault with any work you do.

M

Peco
12-11-2011, 12:28 PM
hmmmm ....

jmforge
12-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Here is something for you. Here is a finish on a very expensive knife from a maker everybody reveres here.
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attid/157537/M
Dang!!! I know from seeing it done that you can get a MUCH finer finish on a damascus blade than that by grinding to 400 grit then going straight to a Scotchguard flap wheel and then buffing with white compound!!!

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 12:55 PM
My point was a about a double standard in case you missed it.

NO ChoP!
12-11-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm not sure how I managed to stay out of this for so long. LOL

As a family man, and a new business owner, I don't have lots of excess funds.

I love knives, and own many. Two to three hundred dollars is about the limit I can spend at one time. I have Kono's, Takeda's, Moritaka's, Watanabe's, etc...

The DT ITK was always that knife, that although on the higher end of what I could afford, was still obtainable. It was my gateway to the custom world.

@ $490 I am unfortunately out of the league...simple. No need for an explanation of price increase. I get it. Just a little sad I hadn't jumped on an ITK as of yet.

Hopefully I can still get a Carter funi someday soon, as those are still reasonably obtainable within my budget...

Mr. Hoss, I think your knives wouldn't have this ten + page thread, if they weren't an awesome product. You have always been an invaluable and positive addition to the forum community. Thank you.

Andrew H
12-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Mr. Hoss, I think your knives wouldn't have this ten + page thread, if they weren't an awesome product. You have always been an invaluable and positive addition to the forum community. Thank you.

:plus1:
This thread has become more of an argument about which makers are better, American or Japanese, than anything else. Let's try and remember we all love knives and keep the discussion on topic and friendly.

NO ChoP!
12-11-2011, 01:47 PM
I'd like to add that, although I have never personally owned a high end custom, I have been lucky enough to handle a few of Salty's, as he is a good friend and mentor to my business partner and I, and has shared much wisdom with us both...

A knife like Salty's feather damascus scimiter is something, that even with years of training, most of us could never replicate. That is true talent. True talent demands $$$$!!!

People still pay thousands for a signed and numbered artist's print......

mindbender
12-11-2011, 02:06 PM
I only have one problem: I never ever thought I'd have Buyer's Remorse with DT ITK knives I've purchased before the price increase.

Why?

It's not because of the knives themselves. I love my 240mm AEB-L and 150mm CS DT's with a passion.

It because I can't help but obsess about what I'm missing for the 40% increase from what I already have.

Because what I already have is wonderful. What will Hoss provide for that increase, which he has already said that he would do?

I will always enjoy my DT ITK knives but if Hoss improves on a wonderful item, what am I missing out on??!?!?

Reminds me of those Apple buyers who... aw dang! I brought up the A word!!! Oh no! :shocked3:


Keep the products coming, Devin. Price them as you see fit. It's the American dream.

welshstar
12-11-2011, 03:19 PM
I owe Devin an apology.

I am sorry to have made the comments about his increase, not so much because of the money side but that i implied his knives are not worth the new price, that is wrong they are worth the new price. I just dont like the idea of paying it and its potential knock on effect

The whole US v Japan thing is silly and has no place on the forum in any form, both places make excellent if different knives.

Alan

DevinT
12-11-2011, 03:22 PM
Apology accepted.

Thanks Alan

Hoss

welshstar
12-11-2011, 03:38 PM
I actually really uspet with Hoss because he can only make crude handles like the below !!!

2913

welshstar
12-11-2011, 03:41 PM
Seriously

Ive seen a lot of attractive handle designs over the last few months but that is just fantastic !!

Alan

mr drinky
12-11-2011, 03:45 PM
Yeah, Devin has been throwing trash like that around for a while.

Kidding aside. I would love to see a proper gallery of Devin's custom work on KKF.

k.

welshstar
12-11-2011, 03:55 PM
OK

Back to knives

Do you think that damascus handle would look good on a AEB-L kniife ? im thinking the contrast would be kinda sexy.

Alan

bprescot
12-11-2011, 04:05 PM
*Post Removed*

EDIT: I made it 6 pages into this thread before I typed up a response. But I've since gone back and read the rest of the posts and felt it was no longer helpful, useful, or relevant as the conversation looks like it progressed past where it had been, so I deleted it. Sorry! I guess that'll teach me to look (to the end of a thread) before I leap :wink:

Chef Niloc
12-11-2011, 04:11 PM
I actually really uspet with Hoss because he can only make crude handles like the below !!!

2913

Is that real moKume or a resin composite?

kalaeb
12-11-2011, 04:13 PM
I am pretty sure that is real mokume, I remember that knife and thought it was for sell about 8 months ago on ebay...if it is the same knife I am thinking about.

Andrew H
12-11-2011, 04:13 PM
I'm pretty sure it's mokume. Here is the thread http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1467-Knife-Porn

stevenStefano
12-11-2011, 04:16 PM
Just to add my own opinion, I don't own an ITK and never will, but I don't really have a problem with the price increase. The demand is much higher than the supply and if the new ones are gonna be better, why not? I just hope there isn't a flood of people trying to sell theirs to make a profit now which kind of happened when Misono raised their prices

James
12-11-2011, 04:26 PM
I think we all have to put this into perspective. To be honest, it does seem like we expect a lot for the money we pay; however, in comparison to most other hobbies (audio, cars, photography), KITCHEN KNIVES ARE FRIGGIN CHEAP. For less than 2k, we can already get some of the best knives out there; this is is not the case for other trivial pursuits (I know camera equipment goes upwards of several thousand dollars; heck I thought my friend was crazy for buying a $300 tripod). We can probably do 99.9% of the things with do with lesser knives, but the ones we buy are high performance luxury goods and as such, they should be priced accordingly.

Devin T should increase the price if he could make more money doing other things; in fact, I'm surprised that he hasn't done it earlier given that there was not much profit at the earlier pricing. If they sell out (as before), this is just a testament to his skill and how much we value it. Frankly, I'd much rather get a DT ITK (at new prices) than a Zwilling Kramer. Why? DT is an artisan, his knives are great, and I'd rather he get my money than some large, well established company.

Marko Tsourkan
12-11-2011, 04:35 PM
I am pretty sure that is real mokume, I remember that knife and thought it was for sell about 8 months ago on ebay...if it is the same knife I am thinking about.

Mokume

memorael
12-11-2011, 05:12 PM
god damn... so much good stuff rolling around these days. I remember when a misono was a priceless piece art, Masamoto's where probably thought of as forged by the cyclops or something.

cnochef
12-11-2011, 05:55 PM
I hope that all of you keep complaining about Devin's new pricing and don't buy ANY of his new knives. That way, when I am jonesing for a new DT ITK, I will be able to get one immediately without waiting 4 months or more.:)

Just kidding, but I do think that the original pricing was too low and I hope that Devin's business continues to flourish!

SpikeC
12-11-2011, 06:25 PM
All knives cost too much, and I am NOT going to buy a Shigafusa until they cut their prices in half! And I will NOT buy one of those feather damascus jobbies with the mokume bolsters for any more than 50 bucks!
That will show em!

Burton
12-11-2011, 09:00 PM
This thread is pretty bad, I'm buying a gyuto at the new price.

And if a carbon petty in wenge/butterscotch ever shows up again, I'll get that too.

Would I rather pay $5 for one? Sure, but it wouldn't keep Devin making the product. This will. Pretty simple.

SpikeC
12-11-2011, 09:10 PM
Well if he grew his own food and made his own electricity and smelted his own iron and got people to work for free then he he wouldn't have to charge for his work!

Johnny.B.Good
12-11-2011, 09:13 PM
And if a carbon petty in wenge/butterscotch ever shows up again, I'll get that too.

Not if I see it first you won't. ;)

jackslimpson
12-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Hell, I named my son Devin Mokume Slimpson ... .

mpukas
12-12-2011, 03:22 PM
Depends what "better" is... M

Been away for a while, and most of the rest of this thread is crap...

I don't have a problem w/ Devin increasing his prices, and I find it appealing that he's willing to improve his product for the increased price. As a small business owner myself who has taken a beating in the past couple of years, I'm all for a great craftsman like him getting paid for what his time and product are worth. I hope he sells every knife he makes for whatever he decides to charge and makes a nice profit. There's no need for him to subsidize any knife-knut's addiction.

My concern is are the AEB-L ITK's really worth $500 +/- when compared to other knives in that price range, mainly f/ Japanese makers? There are a lot of great knives in that $500 range from many makers. On this and other forums is where I primarily get my info about what's what - lots of ooh's and aah's about several Japanese maker's knives and for some of Devin's knives, but mixed feedback about the ITK. "Better" is purely subjective and differs for everyone. I've heard great things and not-so-great things about the ITK - and the not-so-great things are why I didn't jump on one sooner.

I’m in the market for a new higher-end knife. If the new ITK’s are really as good or “better”, it’ll surely make my short list.