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Dave Martell
12-21-2011, 02:33 AM
Do you understand that even a super flat profiled gyuto should not actually be dead flat?

If a gyuto has a true flat spot anywhere along it's edge length it sucks and nothing is worse than the dead ass clunker - the gyuto with a perfectly flat section at the heel that upon making contact with the cutting board sends a shock wave up your arm that wants to blow your elbow out.

Seems like this bit of knowledge has been overlooked a lot lately. I see so much talk of flat profiles that it's influencing how knives are made and maintained.

So my message here is it's cool to be flat(ish) but not actually flat.

Just my :2cents:

NO ChoP!
12-21-2011, 02:45 AM
:plus1: Thank you!

JBroida
12-21-2011, 03:35 AM
yup... I agree

stevenStefano
12-21-2011, 07:20 AM
Agreed 100% Dave. The idea of having a flat profile seems to be very popular but I've always thought it was kinda irrelevant. My Hattori is my favourite knife and it haa a curve the whole way along its length

Timthebeaver
12-21-2011, 07:48 AM
The idea of having a flat profile seems to be very popular but I've always thought it was kinda irrelevant.

^ this

I think flat (e.g. Masamoto KS, Carter funayuki) is just in vogue at the moment, in the same way that thin was in vogue a few years back.

Peco
12-21-2011, 07:57 AM
^ this

I think flat (e.g. Masamoto KS, Carter funayuki) is just in vogue at the moment, in the same way that thin was in vogue a few years back.

Then I'm in vouge: Flat santoku, flat Carter funa, flat cleaver. Hope knifes with a huge belly don't come in vouge soon - that would break my budget :D T, you just sold a Takeda with a huge belly - going flat now?

Timthebeaver
12-21-2011, 08:06 AM
I have been known to use a chukabocho. :biggrin:

But mostly I find myself reaching for a not-particularly flat gyuto.

slowtyper
12-21-2011, 08:10 AM
Are there gyutos sold with large dead flat spots ? Haven't noticed them and I'm sure those looking for flatter gyutos all understand they aren't dead flat or they'd just buy nikiris or something

Peco
12-21-2011, 08:12 AM
I have been known to use a chukabocho. :biggrin:

But mostly I find myself reaching for a not-particularly flat gyuto.

:D

apicius9
12-21-2011, 11:15 AM
I like mine curvier than average anyway, but good to point that out again.

Stefan

TamanegiKin
12-21-2011, 11:17 AM
Agreed, even my KS isn't dead flat toward the heel and I prefer it that way. I actually find my konosukes profile to suit my style best as an all arounder.

jmforge
12-21-2011, 11:41 AM
I just got my first two Japanese knives in the mail, a Carbonext 240 gyuto and a Hattori FH 270 suji and I see what you mean. They both have a little tiny bit of upward curve right at the heel.

jaybett
12-21-2011, 12:36 PM
Do you understand that even a super flat profiled gyuto should not actually be dead flat?

If a gyuto has a true flat spot anywhere along it's edge length it sucks and nothing is worse than the dead ass clunker - the gyuto with a perfectly flat section at the heel that upon making contact with the cutting board sends a shock wave up your arm that wants to blow your elbow out.

Seems like this bit of knowledge has been overlooked a lot lately. I see so much talk of flat profiles that it's influencing how knives are made and maintained.

So my message here is it's cool to be flat(ish) but not actually flat.

Just my :2cents:

This is also true for cleavers, double sided kiritsukes, and nakiris.

Jay

Sarge
12-21-2011, 01:04 PM
I agree that a gentle curve is good, I do look for the gentlest curve especially towards the tip, but yes true flats on a gyuto can be jarring depending when and how they happen

Benuser
12-21-2011, 01:08 PM
I would like to know how Sabatier users think about this.

Eamon Burke
12-21-2011, 01:13 PM
A dead flat spot is doing to make the knife strange to sharpen, and won't likely last long at all...plus it would look strange as hell when sighted down the choil.

But I do like a large contact area. Since we aren't cutting on granite(ARE WE?), it doesn't have to be dead flat to make full contact, since the edge will bite into the board.

mr drinky
12-21-2011, 01:30 PM
The knife with the flattest profile I have is my Fowler and to be perfectly honest I am still having a tough time getting used to it. I also feel that as the blade profile goes flatter, balance is more important. If I am fighting with an awkward balance and trying to hit a sweet flat spot, the knife knife just seems clumsy to me. But that is just me.

k.

Dave Martell
12-21-2011, 01:45 PM
I just got my first two Japanese knives in the mail, a Carbonext 240 gyuto and a Hattori FH 270 suji and I see what you mean. They both have a little tiny bit of upward curve right at the heel.


It's not just this though. Some knives don't have an upward curve at the heel at all yet still aren't dead flat.

What I'm talking about is knives used on cutting boards need correct shape of the contact patch. The contact patch is the area of contact between the knife's edge and the cutting board. As the knife rolls from heel to tip we should see the contact patch shrink but it should never go flat. As the knife is used it needs to allow for movement along it's edge - no clunking. The correct movement can be a VERY slight thing to a big belly but it can't be flat.

Dave Martell
12-21-2011, 01:46 PM
This is also true for cleavers, double sided kiritsukes, and nakiris.

Jay


:plus1:

Cadillac J
12-21-2011, 06:39 PM
I love flat profiles on knives, but none in my experience have ever been dead flat nor did I ever expect them to be, as it would be awkward to use--but that doesn't mean I don't prefer flatter profiles to those with belly. Figured most people understood that flat profiles does not equal flat as the edge of a sheet of paper.

My Takeda kiritsuke has the flattest profile of any knife I've ever had, yet there is a very subtle curve along the edge that is almost hard to spot by just looking at it, but is noticeable when set on a cutting board--it has some of the best contact patch areas and is really fun to use. My Konosuke 270 suji is one of the best profiled knives (for me) that I've ever used, and that is because it is flatter than majority of knives and fits my push-cutting extremely well.


Seems like this bit of knowledge has been overlooked a lot lately. I see so much talk of flat profiles that it's influencing how knives are made and maintained.

Can you please elaborate on this a bit? To me, flatter profiles have always been a draw of Japanese knives in general, yet some do it better than others to meet the needs of people like me. Are makers now changing their designs to meet this 'new'(?) demand for flatter/much less belly and making dead-flat knives that turn out to be duds?

RRLOVER
12-22-2011, 08:46 PM
None of my J knives have a dead flat spot,something I noticed a very long time ago.I did make a knife with a very large dead flat spot and did not really notice any clunk.It could be the thousands of hours tossing a 90lb jack hammer around that stops me from feeling a knife hitting a wood board in a way that would cause me a problem,it also could be my poor knife skills.I know the proper profile does not have a dead flat spot but I can say I did not notice the difference,I am sure if I had to prep for 5 hours I would have a different opinion.

SpikeC
12-22-2011, 09:18 PM
If there is the slightest dish in your cutting board, (a not uncommon situation) a dead flat edge is a problem.

racineboxer
01-02-2012, 12:28 AM
Do you guys like your gyuto to have a little relief in the heel so that when you come down with the heel you can roll your edge easily past parallel to the cutting board?

I ask this because I have a new MAC pro 9.5, just a few weeks old, and it seems to be a clunker. Compared to a Hattori, Shun, Messermiester and Carbonext, this knife really just thuds when I roll towards the heel. It's a very uncomfortable feeling and none of the knives listed above felt this way. I'm not sure if I should try to sharpen this out of the knife or send it out (either back to MAC or to someone who can sharpen better than myself).

Dave Martell
01-02-2012, 12:42 AM
Do you guys like your gyuto to have a little relief in the heel so that when you come down with the heel you can roll your edge easily past parallel to the cutting board?

I ask this because I have a new MAC pro 9.5, just a few weeks old, and it seems to be a clunker. Compared to a Hattori, Shun, Messermiester and Carbonext, this knife really just thuds when I roll towards the heel. It's a very uncomfortable feeling and none of the knives listed above felt this way. I'm not sure if I should try to sharpen this out of the knife or send it out (either back to MAC or to someone who can sharpen better than myself).


That's exactly what I hate. It's probably not a big deal to fix when sharpening. You lower the handle a bit while working the heel and this should correct it although some blending this new section into the rest will help - do this through strokes on the stone. I wouldn;t send it back to MAC for correction - they already made it wrong once. :)

tk59
01-02-2012, 12:52 AM
Do you understand that even a super flat profiled gyuto should not actually be dead flat?...Yup. I had to learn it the hard way, too.:doublebanghead:

Mike Davis
01-03-2012, 12:44 PM
Thanks for this thread Dave. I had made mine with a flat spot, but now i see the advantages of having a really long, continuous curve, as subtle as it may be. Very helpful.

Mike Davis
01-03-2012, 01:13 PM
Ok, i have to admit Tinh told me this a while back also...so thank you both!

Miles
01-03-2012, 02:09 PM
A tiny bit of relief at the heel really helps the feel of a knife. I have a fairly light touch on the board, but there are a couple knives in my extended batterie which suffer from excessive flatness towards the heel. That thunk when it hits the board is a bit annoying both in sound and feel.

hambone.johnson
01-05-2012, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Dave Martell
Seems like this bit of knowledge has been overlooked a lot lately. I see so much talk of flat profiles that it's influencing how knives are made and maintained.


Can you please elaborate on this a bit? To me, flatter profiles have always been a draw of Japanese knives in general, yet some do it better than others to meet the needs of people like me. Are makers now changing their designs to meet this 'new'(?) demand for flatter/much less belly and making dead-flat knives that turn out to be duds?

Not that i want to term knives as being dudds, because each knife to its perfered user. but i think there is a blatant style/form being used by some makers. i recently took some measurments of my konosuke and hattorii kf and Tojiro to work with Pier Rodrigue on a custom. I would classify the shape of the hattorii to be my favorite, for future reference. ...

The kono plays into that current form "A" i think, flatter length before the sweep, it has a percentage of flat spot that is close to 40% of blade length. i measured mine as 103mm/232mm heel to tip lenght as being flat before it broke to the curve and reached the tip. There are a couple of other makers out there with similar designs, i think they are all working on that lazer classification but all im saying is as i cycle through various retailers i can look at something and say that shape isnt far off the kono shape, prolly not gonna work for me. that type of blade shape is kinda cut and dry i think. it either works or it doesnt. and its not so great for me. the kono might be on the lower side of flatness being a mass production knife i think its a good example and a development off of a Tadatsuna Inox gyuto of years past. just trying to use an example of something for the masses.

I dont see too much out there with the long gracefull sweep i have on my Hattorii. @ 240mm its flat spot is only 52mm long before it breaks and its a long 190mm before it hits the tip, which comes up 5mm higher from the table than the kno if you stood the heel up on its edge and measure tip to table. 19mm kono and 24mm hattorii.

its not a judgement, something out there for all. i just thought that maybee i could provide a perspective.

-J.

EdipisReks
01-05-2012, 12:06 PM
i like a sizable portion of the heel to be in contact with the board. i don't turn it into an architects straight edge, and when you rest the edge on a hard/flat surface you can tell that there is a subtle curve all the way through, but when used on a board the curve is subtle enough that there is a large contact patch when the edge sinks into the wood. almost every good Japanese gyuto i have owned has been ground like this out of the box, though hand-sharpened knives have typically been under ground about an inch from the heel, so i have to flatten and thin to fix the hole. i don't remove a lot of steel, and it only takes about 10 minutes, as i'm just taking a hole out and fixing the contact patch.

my KS is a bit extreme, in that it was board flat from the heel to about a third of the way up the blade. it works great, and doesn't clunk. it is certainly not "dead ass." however, i don't really rock the blade, instead using a small forward or rearward motion while push-cutting, as i find that it is a wasteful motion, so perhaps it's technique dependent. when i've talked about flattening heels, making sure that there is a good contact patch and no holes is what i've meant. i don't particularly like gyutos that are very flat from heel to tip, but that has more to do with my preferred wrist angle when i use the tip for fine work, than it is for anything else. i think having a contact patch large enough for typical use is a good thing. :scratchhead: