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HHH Knives
01-08-2012, 02:30 PM
Ok guys, I have been asked to make a Chinese Veggie cleaver. The request is for a damascus clad san mai with high carbon core. and a sanitary handle.

So heres what Im thinking.. For the blade some of Jr's 1080 and 15n20 damascus with a O1 core.. but I want to add a new twist and do integral
bolster for this cleaver. of the same damascus as the cladding. :) As if the challenge of making the cleaver was not enough I am adding this aspect and challenge myself.. Because I think besides being just way too awesome, it will and add to the balance and feel of the cleaver.

For the handle I was thinking corian.. for sanitary and longevity.

Im telling you guys this to try and get some input as to blade size, thickness, heel heights etc.. Sorta pic your brains a bit B4 I start.
Thanks guys in advance for taking the time to help, and checking out our work.

God Bless
Randy

echerub
01-08-2012, 02:32 PM
Uh... veggie cleaver as in "standard" size slicing cleaver (about 210x110 dimensions), or the long-nakiri type of knife that I actually do hear called in chinese as "veggie knives" (if translated literally)?

HHH Knives
01-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Len, So the 210 Nakiri would be classified as a veggie cleaver?

Hattorichop
01-08-2012, 03:22 PM
I did own a takeda nakiri in the past and as far as I can tell most other nakiri's have the same blade height as a gyuto.
When I hear a "veggie cleaver" I think of something in between a standard cleaver and a nakiri.
I think I would aim for something around 75mm in height at the heel and about 180mm to 210mm in length with little to no curvature on the cutting edge.

I hope to see a WIP on this one!

Eamon Burke
01-08-2012, 03:31 PM
A chinese chef's knife gets called a cleaver because it's big and square. It has nothing in common with the functions of a cleaver. It is an all-purpose chef's knife, used in conjunction with a small knife for fruit and sometimes a thicker, actual cleaver for hacking bones and coconuts and whatnot. A Chinese kitchen typically has 1-3 knives, that do everything. A Japanese kitchen can have one knife for every job. It's a different approach to the knives.

A Nakiri is a Japanese veggie knife that is sort of adapted from an Usuba, which is a single-bevel used for slicing up veggies into intricate sizes and shapes and sushi chefs use it to roll sheets of column-peeled vegetables. A Nakiri is double beveled, so it's less of a precision cutter, but takes more abuse.

A Chinese Cleaver is designed to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs5WiddD7i0
He's got gobs and gobs of knives, because he is a pro chef in Taiwan. Most Chinese cooks are not so well-off, and the knife style has adapted. A Chinese cleaver is used for doing anything and everything and takes quite a beating. It's a simple concept and an elegant solution to the problems of material cost, weight distribution, ergonomics, balance, tip placement, finger protection, food stickage, blade strength/flex, and profile. Like most simple and elegant things, they are very easy to screw up.

HHH Knives
01-08-2012, 04:05 PM
Cool video. I had to watch it twice.

OK so im learning..

HHH Knives
01-08-2012, 04:28 PM
This is gona be a fun blade to make. I have been given no boundary's, measurements, thickness, heights, etc. and Its going to be totally subjective as to how high or large I make the blade. The only request was for a san mai blade and a sanitary handle material.. in either stainless or something that ill be easily cleaned and maintained.

After spending a hour looking at Google searches and stuff, I figured if anyone could help me with this it would be you guys! :)

Currently Im thinking a 210 blade with a 76mm heel height. and 3mm at the spine with full flat grinds.. ?? But still not 100% sure.. but on paper it looks like a cleaver. Yet still open to other suggestions and ideas.

The person who will receive the knife runs or owns a place that serves only veggie dishes.. There is 2 people between him and I. So I have not had a chance to talk to him and am going off info from the middle man. Which makes it harder for me to make a very specific design knife. I think next week I will cut out the middle man and try and talk direct to the chef thats going to be cutting with the blade. That will probably really narrow it down for me.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your help and advice.
Randy

Eaglewood
01-09-2012, 12:52 AM
Hmmmmmm.

DwarvenChef
01-09-2012, 03:02 AM
I bought that movie just because of the intro :) Not a bad movie really

tgraypots
01-09-2012, 08:24 AM
I rented the movie from amazon instant download a few weeks ago, just for the opening scene, but enjoyed it all. As to veggie cleavers, I have a friend who has asked me to make one for him, and I want another for myself. I'm just gonna use the CCK 1303 template with some 1/8" 1080 steel. Not sure about the handle yet. I'll probably keep the spine fairly thick at the back, with a distal taper from there.

echerub
01-09-2012, 09:40 PM
I think you'll be fine to go with a regular slicing cleaver's dimensions.

I remember in my grandma's kitchen, the cleaver was just called "the knife". The paring knife was "the small knife". Very simple :) As for "veggie knife"... the only time I would hear that was actually from gangster movies. That's when the gangsters would whip out what are essentially long nakiri ... or, if you've ever seen the "watermelon knives", like that ... and start hacking at each other. Never heard anyone call a cleaver a veggie knife or anything other than "knife". :)

jmforge
01-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Just curious as to why you would use a shallow hardening core steel like 01 with a deep hardening cladding? as for a sanitary handle would stabilized wood sealed with super glue or epoxy work?

SpikeC
01-09-2012, 10:06 PM
O1 shallow hardening??

HHH Knives
01-09-2012, 10:24 PM
I was thinking the same thing Spike?? I dont claim to be a metallurgic.. (See my post about spraying molten Elmax around the shop.. lol )

But I do know I can make em stick together, and I know I can Heat Treat em and get the O1 core to RC 61 without issue. So why not? :)

Thanks for the suggestion.

jmforge
01-10-2012, 11:46 AM
Strike, that..........reverse it. DEEP hardening core with shallow hardening cladding. Same question.:D

HHH Knives
01-10-2012, 12:29 PM
JM, The main thing Im really concerned about when making choices like this would be. Will the core and cladding materials be compatible enough to be forge welded together, and second would be if I bielieve that I can properly heat treat them when there together. . And the answer to both of these is yes. and yes. So I guess the answer would be, Because I can. lol :)

None of these choices are set in stone.. and I am open to other suggestions for core materials.

jmforge
01-10-2012, 12:58 PM
If it has worked in the past, excellent.:doublethumbsup: i was just wondering about the different hardening rates, especially on something that thin.
JM, The main thing Im really concerned about when making choices like this would be. Will the core and cladding materials be compatible enough to be forge welded together, and second would be if I bielieve that I can properly heat treat them when there together. . And the answer to both of these is yes. and yes. So I guess the answer would be, Because I can. lol :)

None of these choices are set in stone.. and I am open to other suggestions for core materials.

HHH Knives
01-10-2012, 01:10 PM
Who knows if it will work. This is as much a art as a science for us. and we experiment all the time. Sometimes what should work dont and what should not work does. :D
One thing for sure, were having a blast..

My goal in this is to make something different, even if its just slightly different.. or a bit better or cooler in one way or another.. and without testing and trying new stuff.. That will never happen..

I am open to suggestions, like I said. and often they are very helpful and help direct my path on the journey I call knife making..

As it turns out, I sent the Spirograph Nakiri to the chef asking about a veggie knife. He will test it out and it may be exactly what hes needing, or he may still want to move forward with us making him a cleaver.. Either way.. I want to make one with integral damascus bolsters and san mai blade. Im now on a mission! lol

Ill post any updates and may even do a WIP on this one just for fun! :) Thanks for the comments JM.

jmforge
01-10-2012, 05:27 PM
An integral, eh? Not satisfied with making it just a little bit challenging? :D
Who knows if it will work. This is as much a art as a science for us. and we experiment all the time. Sometimes what should work dont and what should not work does. :D
One thing for sure, were having a blast..

My goal in this is to make something different, even if its just slightly different.. or a bit better or cooler in one way or another.. and without testing and trying new stuff.. That will never happen..

I am open to suggestions, like I said. and often they are very helpful and help direct my path on the journey I call knife making..

As it turns out, I sent the Spirograph Nakiri to the chef asking about a veggie knife. He will test it out and it may be exactly what hes needing, or he may still want to move forward with us making him a cleaver.. Either way.. I want to make one with integral damascus bolsters and san mai blade. Im now on a mission! lol

Ill post any updates and may even do a WIP on this one just for fun! :) Thanks for the comments JM.

HHH Knives
01-10-2012, 05:43 PM
Yea, jm. you know how it is.. :) I gota keep Jr. on his toes!!! Not to mention I like to challenge myself and continue to stretch my skill set. and integral seems like the next logical step. LMAO!

I also picked up a special tool arm attachment with the intention of doing a few of these integral bolsters. On kitchen knives and bowies and hunting knives.

PierreRodrigue
01-10-2012, 06:13 PM
I have done O1 core, with 15N20 and 1084 sides, even added some pure nickel for some nice bright contrast. All you steels you are useing are fine, the issue might be exposeing and keeping the core centered. Next PITA is of the core gets nice and thin, like your customer is likely going to want, and it gets to that magical temp, then the core can and likely will ripple, like the edge of a lasanga noodle! Now THAT is a PITA!

HHH Knives
01-11-2012, 11:04 AM
I have done O1 core, with 15N20 and 1084 sides, even added some pure nickel for some nice bright contrast. All you steels you are useing are fine, the issue might be exposeing and keeping the core centered. Next PITA is of the core gets nice and thin, like your customer is likely going to want, and it gets to that magical temp, then the core can and likely will ripple, like the edge of a lasanga noodle! Now THAT is a PITA!

I hate it when that happens.. :) Yep I think this one will be a challenge..

zitangy
04-10-2013, 12:32 PM
This is gona be a fun blade to make. I have been given no boundary's, measurements, thickness, heights, etc. and Its going to be totally subjective as to how high or large I make the blade. The only request was for a san mai blade and a sanitary handle material.. in either stainless or something that ill be easily cleaned and maintained.

After spending a hour looking at Google searches and stuff, I figured if anyone could help me with this it would be you guys! :)

Currently Im thinking a 210 blade with a 76mm heel height. and 3mm at the spine with full flat grinds.. ?? But still not 100% sure.. but on paper it looks like a cleaver. Yet still open to other suggestions and ideas.

The person who will receive the knife runs or owns a place that serves only veggie dishes.. There is 2 people between him and I. So I have not had a chance to talk to him and am going off info from the middle man. Which makes it harder for me to make a very specific design knife. I think next week I will cut out the middle man and try and talk direct to the chef thats going to be cutting with the blade. That will probably really narrow it down for me.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your help and advice.
Randy

Hey.. How's the "Chinese vegetable knife" coming along?

I did order custom size from Ashi Hamono.. 210mm but x 70mm, a 180mm x 65mm with the strict limitation that it must not weigh more than 240grams which is about the weight of a German chef knife + Balance point at the choil as teh sugimoto 4030 (stainless steel) is a little too high and heavy eventhough it clocks abt 320 grams. BUt its great for smashing garlic!

Thus in this dimension, it is a big Nakiri.

Will Catcheside just made one adn it is about this dimension adn weight. I find this to be useful size as cut/ chop and scoop in my prep. I have been able to slice beautifully through a pomfret from the nose to the tail in one straight motion an act that gives me much joy and satisfaction.
WIll Catchseide Stainless 210 Nakiri
"
Special hollow ground faces with polished flat double bevels make this Nakiri cut like a very thin knife yet with zero flex. Food release is also superb as a result of the geometry.
Specifications http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/shop.html
Blade length - 214 mm
Handle Length - 142mm
Height over heel - 64mm halfway 58mm At tip 47mm
Taper on spine - 3mm - 2.5mm - 1.6mm
Taper is apex of hollow - 1.25 - 1mm - 0.8mm
Balance point 30mm in front of handle.
Weight approx 240 grams.

I prefer the 210mm over the 180mm and have gifted the latter to a friend as I discovered Sugimoto does make a smaller chef knife abt 60mm Blade height adn since I am a Sugimoto man and perhaps wrongfully have a)teh Sugimoto 4030 chinese chefs knife, b)the Sugimoto 60mm x 180mm and c) the Ashi 210mm x 70mm Western handle as my kitchen Arsenal. Recently Sugimoto has relented to make a Stainless steel version CM4030 model

A Nakiri is just too short in blade height for chop and scoop cutting and mincing meat.

Have fun and stay sharp..

rgds d

connie
05-17-2013, 03:54 AM
old Chinese only use one cleaver for everyting. But now have a big cleaver for cutting bone, a chef knife for vegetable, a peeler for carrot, a scissors for saussage...