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welshstar
01-08-2012, 02:28 PM
I know segments of this have been seen before but ive never seen some of stress tests, are these real ? would knives made by the main makers on KKF pass these tests ?

Just curious

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5738120n

oivind_dahle
01-08-2012, 02:35 PM
If Eamon can bring his videocamera to ABS Expo, Im sure Bills knives can do the same :)
Bill - you in for the challenge?

Eamon Burke
01-08-2012, 02:37 PM
Yes they are real.

Not everyone's knives will survive that.

Not every knife SHOULD do that.

Those are tests that every ABS Master Smith must pass to become a Master Smith. On 7 different knives(IIRC). So Michael Rader, Bill Burke, Bob Kramer, and Murray Carter have all passed this Master Smith testing.

It basically requires a knife that is an optimal balance of a LOT of different opposing qualities and properties of a blade. I mean, nobody needs a knife to bend 90 degrees, so the ability to do it without breaking isn't something to focus on when heat treating, forging, laminating, and grinding a blade. But is shows you have a more complete control over the material you are working with.

It's like an Iron Chef battle--take a single thing, turn it into a soup, salad, entree, another entree, a drink, an ice cream, a baked good, and a serving vessel, and you've shown you've got game. Should they cook like that every day? Probably not. But it's pretty cool to know they have enough skill to do it.

RRLOVER
01-08-2012, 02:40 PM
Those blades are made specific for the abs test,not the same as a retail blade.

Marko Tsourkan
01-08-2012, 02:42 PM
Those blades are made specific for the abs test,not the same as a retail blade.

I would like to see the heel shot of that ABS knife - thickness and the angle it is sharpened.

Rottman
01-08-2012, 02:46 PM
And the edges are allowed to chip during testing...

Dave Martell
01-08-2012, 09:05 PM
I heard an ABS MS say, "I'll teach you to make a knife to pass the ABS tests and then I'll teach you how to make a good knife"

The point isn't that the knife used to pass the tests is bad but that the knives are made to specifically pass these tests more so than do great at anything else - like cutting food for example.

Dave Martell
01-08-2012, 09:07 PM
Oh and great display on Bob's part. making a knife to do that and also being able to physically do it yourself is no small feat. It's something I can't do.

Marko Tsourkan
01-08-2012, 09:14 PM
Oh and great display on Bob's part. making a knife to do that and also being able to physically do it yourself is no small feat. It's something I can't do.

Give yourself 10 years - that is at least how long Bob has been making knives.

M

JMJones
01-08-2012, 09:45 PM
And the edges are allowed to chip during testing...

I belive the edge is allowed to crack during the 90 degree bend, no less than one third the width of the blade, it is not allowed to chip during any of the cutting tests.

Rottman
01-09-2012, 07:50 AM
I was referring to the 90 bend.

jmforge
01-09-2012, 09:24 AM
I can't watch the video on my iPad for some reason, but IIRC, that is a "stock" Kramer 52100 knife. It also went back to true after the 90 degree flex which is not how the typical JS or MS performance test knives do. They are normally left soft enough on the spine that they take a set. Only the performance knife has to pass the torture test. The five knives presented at Blade or San Antonio are judged on their appearance.

jmforge
01-09-2012, 09:29 AM
As for the 20 years comment, yes it might take you that long to learn to do what Bob does, but typically, you can make a mono steel knife that will pass the JS performance test at the end of the two week ABS Intoduction To Bladesmithing course. That is kind of the "final exam". Some guys don't do it and you still "pass" if you don't but the majority are able to pull it off. The bad news is that does not count as your actually test because you had help.

Justin0505
01-13-2012, 04:58 PM
Did anyone see the note in one of Kramer news letters about how his custom knives, especially the damy, are not made to take the same abuse as thoes made for a MS test or demoed in that cbs video?

There was a line something like "... they should not be used to chop coconut.... certainly never a frozen coconut!"

-Every time I think of the story that spawned that line, I laugh... "hey guys I saw these knives on TV and just bought this one for $20K on eBay! Check THIS out!...
WACK!
CLANG!
.... Oh s#! "

I imagine Bob was not amused by the email and photos that followed...

SpikeC
01-13-2012, 06:59 PM
:lmao::lmao:

jmforge
01-14-2012, 02:11 AM
Remember that even what appears the most incredibly stupid warning label is put on a product because someone actually did it at some point and then sued the manufacturer.:D

Michael Kemp
01-14-2012, 12:21 PM
******* - no kidding - I once saw a warning stenciled on a wood stove that basically said: WARNING! FIRE IS HOT! ... when I joked with the sales floor guy about it he related that a customer had come back the previous week threatening to sue the store for selling a product that got hot enough to burn you if you touched it.

Or as Puck said "Lord, what fools these mortals be."

And while I have not made knives I would trust to pass the ABS JS presentation judging, I have made several that I've put through the JS performance test. And I have had some break too. And watched others succeed and fail at it.

But NEVER have I seen a knife that would pass the JS performance test spring back so beautifully after the 90 degree bend.

Awesome.

Mike Davis
01-14-2012, 01:33 PM
Yes, the ABS test knives are differentially hardened so they can bend like this. This type of blade is designed to be bent 90 degrees...They don't say that you should only make knives like this, this is designed to test your heat treat abilities and nothing more. You probably do not want a kitchen knife made to do stuff like this.

jmforge
01-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Karl Anderson, lunatic that he is, decided to make one of his typical knives for the test instead of one of the ordinary full tang sacrificial blades. He tested with a hidden tang knife of take down construction made from a batch of very high quality 5160. IIRC, it ws though hardened and then had the spine tempered back. it bent to 90 degrees and went back to pretty much straight with no cracking of the edge, but it required the use of a 4 foot cheater bar to bend. The reason people fail the performance test can vary. Sometimes the edge cracks more than 1/3 up the blade. Other times, you have a "hot spot" with larger grain. That is what happened to me. The balde bent 80 degrees and snapped up by the tip whihc had beach sand sized grain in one spot .Other times it can be something as simple as a sharp edge on the vice jaw holding the blade or letting the knive snap back from 90 degrees quickly as opposed to keeping it under pressure and letting it go back gently. The thing that impresses me about Bob's knivesis not the 90 degree bend test. The knives are well heat treated and they are 1/10 of an inch thick or less. I am impressed that they can still do the 2 x 4 chop.
******* - no kidding - I once saw a warning stenciled on a wood stove that basically said: WARNING! FIRE IS HOT! ... when I joked with the sales floor guy about it he related that a customer had come back the previous week threatening to sue the store for selling a product that got hot enough to burn you if you touched it.

Or as Puck said "Lord, what fools these mortals be."

And while I have not made knives I would trust to pass the ABS JS presentation judging, I have made several that I've put through the JS performance test. And I have had some break too. And watched others succeed and fail at it.

But NEVER have I seen a knife that would pass the JS performance test spring back so beautifully after the 90 degree bend.

Awesome.

Crothcipt
03-03-2012, 10:42 PM
I have a friend of mine that wants to buy a damascus blade and do the 90 degree test and have it snap back. Then I told him how much one of his knives sold for. I didn't have the heart to tell him that his knives wont do that, maybe if he had that part of the custom. (knowing my friend he wouldn't care if it was a bowie knife or a kitchen knife.)

Eamon Burke
03-03-2012, 10:44 PM
His knives are not heat treated to pass that test. They are heat treated to perform well in a kitchen...the knives that are used for the bend are also used for other tests that show high levels of competing characteristics--it is an attempt to assess one's control over a medium.

Crothcipt
03-03-2012, 11:04 PM
Ya never told him that. I have learned that reading this thread. I wont tell him either have to let him suffer more.:wink:

jmforge
03-04-2012, 01:20 AM
The grind of the blade, particularly the taper, can have an effect on how the blade performs in the bend test. My failed blade was event tapered and bent in an almost perfect arc before it snapped right at the vice jaws. The spot of large grand that caused it to fail was actually in the "soft part of the blade. Others I have seen pass have taken a set right at the point where the vice jaw contacted the blade and even after being released, still have a sharp bend of over 45 degrees. In the case of a knife like the Kramer, the fact that it does have such a thin, tapered blade can allow it to bend more like a spring and snap right back even at higher hardness. Some of the traditional Mexican "singing" swords, which are naturally "softer" than the typical 52100 kitchen knife, can be bent around 180 degrees and they come back to straight. Like I said before, the trick with the Kramer knife was that is survived the 2 x 4 and bolt cutting tests and still appeared to have a sharp edge. The rope cutting test is probably the easiest of the three tasks. The 2 x 4 chop is not that bad either. You can't whittle, but there is no time limit to the test, so you can go slow and easy. The bend is where most people fail.

Bill Burke
03-04-2012, 10:59 PM
It is My sincere belief that any of the knives that Bob makes will pass all of these tests with the exception of cutting the Bolt. It Is also My belief that a properly forged and heat treated blade <.100 will bend 90 and return to straight at a hardnes of ~61 hrc. I regularly test my knives in this fashion And I know that Bob does also. The exception, Cutting the bolt can also be done but requires a thicker edge that is not desirable on a kitchen knife.

jmforge
03-05-2012, 12:50 AM
Good point, Bill. But the bolt cutting knife in the video is still quite sharp by normal standards, just not by crazy kitchen knife standard. :biggrin:

Bill Burke
03-05-2012, 10:36 AM
Good point, Bill. But the bolt cutting knife in the video is still quite sharp by normal standards, just not by crazy kitchen knife standard. :biggrin:

I agree that it is sharp but if you pause the video and look at the edge it looks like it has pretty obtuse angles on the edge for a kitchen knife. I do imagine though that it is still very sharp and you could use this knife in the kitchen with no problems.

jmforge
03-05-2012, 11:07 AM
Bill, perhaps one lesson that can be learned from that demonstration is a confirmation of what some guys like Roman Landes have been saying for a while. Assuming proper heat treatment of a number of the good carbon steels available today, a lot of people tend to leave them tempered softer than they need to be, much softer in some cases. The edge geometry on that particular knife may be less that ideal for a kitchen knife, but as best as I can tell, the edge not only didn't chip, but it also didn't roll or dent like it might at the considerably lower levels of hardness that some consider ideal for a "tough field knife". Food for thought at a minimum.
I agree that it is sharp but if you pause the video and look at the edge it looks like it has pretty obtuse angles on the edge for a kitchen knife. I do imagine though that it is still very sharp and you could use this knife in the kitchen with no problems.

Bill Burke
03-05-2012, 08:38 PM
True Jim,
I don't understand why people think that they need to temper their steel back into the fifties. My hunters are 60-61 and my kitchen knives tend to run about 63.


Bill, perhaps one lesson that can be learned from that demonstration is a confirmation of what some guys like Roman Landes have been saying for a while. Assuming proper heat treatment of a number of the good carbon steels available today, a lot of people tend to leave them tempered softer than they need to be, much softer in some cases. The edge geometry on that particular knife may be less that ideal for a kitchen knife, but as best as I can tell, the edge not only didn't chip, but it also didn't roll or dent like it might at the considerably lower levels of hardness that some consider ideal for a "tough field knife". Food for thought at a minimum.

Eamon Burke
03-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Got to agree there. I had a folder with a blade that was about 61 and it was a lot better to deal with than the ~58 I have now.

jmforge
03-06-2012, 12:03 AM
As far as I know, I haven't sold a knife made from 1084FG or W2 that was any softer than 60RC at the edge since i got my Paragon oven and first bucket of Parks #50 a few years back. The only time that I have been tempted was when using Cru Forge V because it hand sands a lot easier at 59-60 than at 61+.:big grin: If someone wants a big chopper type knife, I use W2 because I know that the interior of the blade at the thicker parts like the spine will naturally be a bit "softer" because of the shallow hardening nature of the steel. Randall may be the biggest offender as they appear to still leave their O1 knives at 54-55 cuz dat's da way Bo did it in 1938, but you do see a LOT of production tactical knives made from 1095 at 57-58 and claiming some "ultimate proprietary heat treatment"

Chef Niloc
03-06-2012, 11:23 AM
I got to see that knife first hand and talk o Bob the night before he did that TV shoot. Beautiful knife, Bob showed me on the knife that the that a 1" part if the heel was ground different. If he did not point it out I would have not noticed it as he blended it in so well. It was very narrow convex with a 2nd bevel cut in at a 40 angle. I think this would have its uses, chopping bone comes to mind. I use the heel of the knife and push down with all my weight to cut bone all the time. At the fish market they use rubber or wood hammers a lot, I have done this on big tuna, swordfish the Japanese use saws but a hammer is quicker. Not the same as Bobs test but I place the heel of Bills suji on the neck bones of medium sized fish, snapper, grouper, and bang my fist down on It all the time, edge has never chipped.
I thought it would be fun to let Bill see the old dog after all these years of use, I should have it back today in the mail. Bill should be able to attest that the blade was in pretty good shape with no excessive sharpening or grinding done over the years. He sad the front part were the blade blends into the tip area had its geometry changed (by me) over the years. This makes sense as I remember having a very hard time getting that area of a knife right before I took Dave's classes, still gives me trouble as the way Bill convex's that part is very different from all other knives I have. Bill and Dave have tried explaining it to me but its all hokuspokus stuff to me, I think it can only be done on a belt and I don't have the balls to take any belt aside from a leather one to tat knife.

andur
07-18-2012, 10:15 AM
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