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Dadra007
01-15-2012, 07:57 PM
I just receive my first J. knife. It's a Sakai forged white n°2 WA-GYUTO 240mm brand Ichimonji-Kichikuni (fron Keichii). I'm a french newbie and would like some advices : can-you see something wrong with sharpening out of box ? Seem razor-sharp, with a great microbevel but I'm a newibe and need advice...:cool2:
Thanks

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-01HNv7mDa10/TxMU_Efuo9I/AAAAAAAAJAc/lCmti15dMtc/s800/_MG_3498.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BgvcP-NjX7s/TxMVAmqHJQI/AAAAAAAAJAk/JI4dMulgdP0/s800/_MG_3501.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qVAXdsc3sWY/TxMU8YEPwSI/AAAAAAAAJAQ/Ifwu4wQWc6o/s800/_MG_3486.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZvRRCKvDP9E/TxMU9ULJ4xI/AAAAAAAAJAU/tbUIrQELgd8/s800/_MG_3490.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9tJhmRxugog/TxMU_7l5P9I/AAAAAAAAJAg/absbYmZuWEc/s800/_MG_3500.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BgvcP-NjX7s/TxMVAmqHJQI/AAAAAAAAJAk/JI4dMulgdP0/s800/_MG_3501.jpg

echerub
01-15-2012, 08:16 PM
Bienvenue!

Great pics :) Nothing wrong with sharpening a knife out of the box - in fact, you will get a much nicer edge than the factory edge if you are already familiar with sharpening knives yourself.

Seb
01-15-2012, 08:34 PM
Everyones different but I wouldn't. I always use a knife OOTB for a few days or even a couple of weeks to get a good feel for what I have, what it's strengths and weaknesses are, and how it works best. And then I start thinking about how I can improve it. Sharpening over a perfectly good edge is a waste of steel, imo.

My Sakai Yusuke and Masamoto HC came with fantastic geometry and were never quite the same after I tinkered with the angles - so I learned my lesson there: look before you leap.

I don't know what sharpening equipment you have, but one thing you can do is strop with newspaper if you don't have anything else. This is a good way to play with the knife without having to do anything drastic and irreversible.

Great pics btw!!

stevenStefano
01-15-2012, 08:37 PM
I am like Seb, I use new knives until they basically need sharpened, I like to get a feel of them before I sharpen. Sometimes I like them better before I sharpen, but not that often.I have a Sakai Ichimonji-Kichikuni usuba.

Seb
01-15-2012, 08:40 PM
BTW, that is a beautiful knife!! I have been close to getting one of this series from time to time. Great workhorse/allrounder, I hear.

FYI, note that the blade has three different layers: stainless, iron and carbon steel.

The 'hazy' area of the blade is, I believe, jigane (soft iron outer cladding) and will start to turn brown as soon as you start using it - nothing to worry about but watch for rust (darker, redder); if you see it, remove with a mild metal polish like Simichrome or Flitz, you can even use toothpaste if the rust is very new. The hagane (hard carbon core) will probably turn grey and then a darker blue over time to make a nice contrast.

If it matters, be careful with the stainless steel cladding - it is likely to pick up scratches easily - so scrub with soft side and not rough green side of scourer. Even some tea towels can leave scratches! :)

JBroida
01-15-2012, 08:48 PM
be careful with the stainless steel cladding - it is likely to pick up scratches easily - so scrub with soft side and not rough green side of scourer. Even some tea towels can leave scratches! :)


pretty sure this is a typo, but i think the knife is carbon hagane and jigane

Seb
01-15-2012, 08:53 PM
pretty sure this is a typo, but i think the knife is carbon hagane and jigane

Not a typo, Jon. Possibly a mistaken assumption on my part. But I think you are right, thanks for the correction! :)

echerub
01-15-2012, 09:03 PM
It could well come with a really nice edge from the factory, I dunno.

Just for me, I've always enjoyed my knives more after putting my own edge on them - but yes, some did indeed come with nice edges out of the box :) To each their own, so there's nothing wrong with either approach. It depends on how you feel about the edge as it is right now and how comfortable/confident you are with sharpening. The safest route is, of course, to leave it alone for a little while first.

Dave Martell
01-15-2012, 09:13 PM
If I did nothing else I'd remove those grind marks from the choil, talk about rough.


And welcome to KKF :)

Cadillac J
01-15-2012, 09:26 PM
Are you asking if people think it is okay to sharpen right out of the box, or if we can see something wrong with the sharpening job your knife came with?

I personally like to sharpen the minute I open a knife and examine it. As long as you start sharpening from the bevel shoulder down as our godfather Dave recommends, you can improve performance without worrying about altering the makers edge ratios.

EdipisReks
01-15-2012, 10:13 PM
i almost bought that knife while it was up, thanks for taking the temptation away from me.

Dadra007
01-16-2012, 04:11 AM
Thank-you guys for your advice :thumbsup:
I'll use it one or two weeks before trying to make my personal sharpening (if it's necessary ; at the moment, test paper is decisive). I own three japanese whestones : #400, #1000 and #3000 grid but I'am a newbie with sharpening (I just try with my other kitchens' knives and my pocket Laguiole to improve my hand). It's better now and I can keep a pretty good angle -but with a "big" guyto it should be more difficult and don't want to be wrong...
At the moment, I have just roundness the handle's angles with some sand-paper. Do I have to oil it ? Wich treatment need the Ho wood ?

Another questions :
Dave, what's the "choil" ? (Google translation can't help me :D).
Seb, I don't think the knife have stainless cladding but perhaps I'm wrong...
Cadillac said : "Are you asking if people think it is okay to sharpen right out of the box, or if we can see something wrong with the sharpening job your knife came with?". I wanted to know if the sharpening was well done OOTB... But I suppose it's difficult to say with only 4 pictures....
EdipisReks : I am happy happy to have been able to calm an addiction :knife:...

I missed a naughty play on words in my last post : HAPPY KNIVE YEAR !

Taz575
01-16-2012, 04:46 AM
It depends on the knife for me. Some I have sharpened OOTB because the edges were rough or not fully sharpened. I have seen a few knives where the edge wasn't fully sharpened or polished OOTB, so I touched them up. The choil is what your 3rd pic shows; the really rough marks where the blade turns into the handle.

The wood handle should be left as is; the Ho wood has grain that stands up when it is wet, giving it a very grippy feel even when wet. It's supposed to be this way. Many people sand it smooth and/or seal the wood, which negates this feature. The Wa handles are designed to be replaced when they need to be, so they aren't worried about the wood rotting. You can sand them smooth if you want and treat with Tung Oil or Tru-Oil, but it will make the handle more slippery when wet. It's your choice! I usually polish/seal most of my handles since I didn't like the feel of the grain raising when it's wet.

schanop
01-16-2012, 04:52 AM
i almost bought that knife while it was up, thanks for taking the temptation away from me.

The knife is still available. Current listing still has 27 days to go :spin chair:

schanop
01-16-2012, 04:59 AM
Another questions :
Dave, what's the "choil" ? (Google translation can't help me :D).


Dave meant rounding the rough grind around this area just in front of the grip and above the heel:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qVAXdsc3sWY/TxMU8YEPwSI/AAAAAAAAJAQ/Ifwu4wQWc6o/s800/_MG_3486.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZvRRCKvDP9E/TxMU9ULJ4xI/AAAAAAAAJAU/tbUIrQELgd8/s800/_MG_3490.jpg

File and sand paper wrapped around a chopstick have been quick an effective tool for me.

Dadra007
01-16-2012, 05:22 AM
Dave meant rounding the rough grind around this area just in front of the grip and above the heel:
File and sand paper wrapped around a chopstick have been quick an effective tool for me.

I have Dremel tools, it could be okay... Thanks !

Bryan G.
01-16-2012, 08:02 AM
Yea a dremel works wonders with the right attachment and low, low speed. I am surprised the choil came so rough. It will make a difference when you grip if it's smooth. Nice pick up. I just took my Sakai Yasuke in stainless to work this past weekend. I forgot how much I love that knife. I usually just use it here and there at home, but put it to real work and it's not even "THAT" sharp and it still kicks ass. It was sharp enough to take an employee's fingertip off while he was cutting carrots. He found out it was a laser through carrots and fingertips.

Dadra007
01-16-2012, 06:14 PM
Yea a dremel works wonders with the right attachment and low, low speed. I am surprised the choil came so rough. It will make a difference when you grip if it's smooth. Nice pick up. I just took my Sakai Yasuke in stainless to work this past weekend. I forgot how much I love that knife. I usually just use it here and there at home, but put it to real work and it's not even "THAT" sharp and it still kicks ass. It was sharp enough to take an employee's fingertip off while he was cutting carrots. He found out it was a laser through carrots and fingertips.

It's difficult to feel streak them on the choil with the finger. It's a macro-foto and the roughness seems bigger than it is in reality... For a perfect finish, I'm going to remove it :bat:

EdipisReks
01-16-2012, 06:23 PM
The knife is still available. Current listing still has 27 days to go :spin chair:

a new knife, i believe. i might still pick one up, in the future.

Johnny.B.Good
01-16-2012, 11:56 PM
a new knife, i believe. i might still pick one up, in the future.

You really could use a nice gyuto Edipis. ;)

Seb
01-17-2012, 01:51 AM
Aren't these like Watanabe look-alikes? Different core steel, of course.

Dadra007
01-23-2012, 11:00 AM
Different core steel and different price too... But I agree, Watanabe looks similar.
After one week and 2 chickens, 1 kg carotts, 3kg of patatoes, 10 leeks and 2 cabbages the knife is always sharp, with a little patina.

The choil is less agressive now but not finished :
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oWKpW0LzVzo/Tx2DmXeIHKI/AAAAAAAAJAs/iK1AZT0ldiU/s800/_MG_9472.jpg

slowtyper
01-23-2012, 12:11 PM
your photography skills are very good. I like your pics a lot.

EdipisReks
01-23-2012, 12:31 PM
You really could use a nice gyuto Edipis. ;)

yeah, you're right, i should probably do something about the gaping lack of gyutos in my rotation. ;)

Dadra007
01-23-2012, 07:15 PM
your photography skills are very good. I like your pics a lot.

Thanks a lot :O ... I have a good camera and an old but fantastic lens (1976 serial - Zeiss Flektogon 35mm f/2.4 ) !

mr drinky
01-23-2012, 07:41 PM
Dadra007. I likey the pics and I likey the knife. Frankly, that choil looks kind of cool to me. It is like you can feel the guy who made it. Not bad in my view, though eventually I would likely smooth it out.

And I won't comment on anything else but...LYON. Dude, I took my honeymoon there and I ate myself nearly to death. Lyon is the best eating city in the world (or one of them -- grant me some hyperbole here). You are lucky to be in the food capital of france with a good knife.

Cheers,
k.

EdipisReks
01-23-2012, 08:28 PM
how expensive is Lyon to visit? i have a honeymoon coming up, and France is a place i want to go, as i haven't been since i was in diapers (and i sure love the food and drink). going on the Normandy apple trail (for cider and calvados) is up on the list, as is, of course, Bordeaux.

mr drinky
01-23-2012, 09:20 PM
Getting there isn't bad. Lyon is about the same as CDG. Staying and eating can be a bit spendy if you don't manage it, but if you plan ahead, you can get some really nice apartment rentals that will be better than any hotel and cost less. From there, you just have to judge your willingness to splurge. If you go to Bocuse or any of the other gastronomiques you will pay, but it was worth it for me to pick at least one (le bec, bocuse, etc). But there is enough food and eat to go around that you can eat cheaply 'enough'. I also hired an American blogger living in Lyon to give a tour, and she was more than worth it. She got me great reservations, and you could tell her what you want and she would point you in the right (food) direction. It will cost you 150 Euro for the day tour and she will help you out with res. PM me if you want her contact info. Of courese the OP might give it for free :)

Btw, here are some of my pictures from Lyon at Bocuse. Yeah, I know it is old school eating but you can't argue with trying it, and it was so fun and worth it. And the last photo is my wife saying in her head: "Did you bring me her for a honeymoon or to eat."

k.

Edit: The fourth photo is from the Bocuse Brigade. And Paul is very short. I am 6'00'', so do the 'hat' math on that one and my wife (who is pregnant in the photo) is sitting.

EdipisReks
01-23-2012, 09:24 PM
thanks, Drinky!! i might PM you about that blogger, just need to see what she who must be obeyed has to say, first. she is big on France, but she will be there earlier in the year...

mr drinky
01-23-2012, 09:32 PM
Btw, she was a moderator at eGullet when it was good. She is very, very good and teaches courses at the Le Creuset store.

k.

mr drinky
01-23-2012, 09:44 PM
I just have to add that I was a bit meatier in that photo. My wife was pregnant and had an excuse -- but I had no excuse other than eating fat and sloth. I was eating foie gras, more foie, and other very tasty French delights. It was seriously the best eating I have ever done in my life. I'll post a map of restaurants I did in google maps that I considered and maybe Dadra007 can say yay or nay. I didn't go to most of them though -- I just did the research on Chow.

Here is the map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107859473522817522715.00048f1dc999099f5b151).

P.S. I am 10k up in the air, so my internet is working petty poorly. I'll edit later if things don't work out.

k.

Edit: Ok, already found a mistake. The blogger was teaching at Emile Henry, not Le Creuset. Same difference.

EdipisReks
01-23-2012, 09:44 PM
thanks!

slowtyper
01-23-2012, 09:45 PM
P.S. I am 10k up in the air, so my internet is working petty poorly. I'll edit later if things don't work out.

k.

hardcore

Dadra007
01-24-2012, 03:38 AM
I just have to add that I was a bit meatier in that photo. My wife was pregnant and had an excuse -- but I had no excuse other than eating fat and sloth. I was eating foie gras, more foie, and other very tasty French delights. It was seriously the best eating I have ever done in my life. I'll post a map of restaurants I did in google maps that I considered and maybe Dadra007 can say yay or nay. I didn't go to most of them though -- I just did the research on Chow.
Here is the map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107859473522817522715.00048f1dc999099f5b151).

P.S. I am 10k up in the air, so my internet is working petty poorly. I'll edit later if things don't work out.

k.

Edit: Ok, already found a mistake. The blogger was teaching at Emile Henry, not Le Creuset. Same difference.

Yes, Lyon is city of the food but now, a lot of restaurants are poor and just for tourists. Your list is great with some very good adress.
Just some additions : misses one "bouchon", for me, the best one (more rustic but more as formely) :
- "Chez Mounier", rue des marronniers 69002.
Another "bistro" is very great (fresh food with few choices and fine cooker) :
- Le Bistro du Palais (rue Servient 69003), it's my favorite. Bernard Lacombes's restaurant but I prefer that one to the other one "Leon de Lyon".

-For chocolate, thes best for me (and for Bocuse since 20 years) is Bernachon. Expensive but very very good know-how (Richart and Voisin are not in the same league)

-For the products, Les Halles (cours Lafayette 69003) propose all the real lyonnais' products (expensive but incredible quality choice)

-For coffee, a new little torefacteur with a great coffe-shop with expresso, cappucino, american coffee (but delicate) : Mokxa (http://www.cafemokxa.com/content/2-coffee-shop-lyon-specialty-coffee-france) - 69001-La Croix-Rousse (nice place very frenchy and the boss and his girl are bilinguals !).

Yes, it's better to rent an appartement. Hôtels are expensive city center. I can look for addresses if people are interested... Paul Bocuse is a old chief, the price are a little bit too much but the food is classic and always good. Lyon is a very nice city with italian architecture and two romantic rivers. The light is often beautifull for photographers (but french people don't speak very english, like me :spankarse: ...)

Dadra007
01-24-2012, 04:03 AM
how expensive is Lyon to visit? i have a honeymoon coming up, and France is a place i want to go, as i haven't been since i was in diapers (and i sure love the food and drink). going on the Normandy apple trail (for cider and calvados) is up on the list, as is, of course, Bordeaux.

You should buy a gyuto before :justkidding:
Normandie is a nice place ("Etretat" especially) but I prefer the more wilder Breton coast (Bretagne, in french, neighbor of Normandy). The cider is also great. Bordeaux, of course, espacially Saint-Emillion : the village is fantastic (the the wine is my favorite with the Margaux (Médoc)) cool:

EdipisReks
01-24-2012, 08:17 AM
thanks, Dadra!

JanusInTheGarden
01-24-2012, 10:41 AM
How difficult is it for an American to work (minimum wage is fine) for a year in Lyon--or even France in general? I know practically nothing of the work visa laws.

Dadra007
01-24-2012, 02:02 PM
How difficult is it for an American to work (minimum wage is fine) for a year in Lyon--or even France in general? I know practically nothing of the work visa laws.
It's difficult : contracts of employment are legally more binding for the bosses (Social Security, guaranteed minimum wage) and the offers are rare. The economic situation is also difficult in Europe but you can find some seasonal jobs (hotel business...). You can obtain a visa if you have a contract of employment. (It's better to speak french in France !)

Kelson
01-24-2012, 05:35 PM
It's difficult : contracts of employment are legally more binding for the bosses (Social Security, guaranteed minimum wage) and the offers are rare. The economic situation is also difficult in Europe but you can find some seasonal jobs (hotel business...). You can obtain a visa if you have a contract of employment. (It's better to speak french in France !)
You are right, except for bars and restaurants.
You can find a job (i' not saying easily) if the manager is 20-40 years old.
A few french words are probably enough for a first job in France.
I'm french also btw ;)