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View Full Version : Why the Kiritsuke on suji?



oivind_dahle
01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
I see some makers make a Kiritsuke tip on some of their knives. Ie their suji. However I don't see the point in that, wouldn't that increase the chance of damaging the tip? I could however see the use on a smaller knife, but not on a 270 or bigger suji?

Here is the Kiritsuke tip suji
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/518a337f71d8af45c99bc01d0812e43a/i/m/img_0002_1_3.jpg

Here is not:
http://www.epicureanedge.com/pics/89777_1_b.jpg

Anyone like to enlighten me?
I like the normal tip far more than the other tip, am I stupid or something?

JBroida
01-18-2012, 10:59 AM
honestly, i just did it because i like the way it looks... i have a few in that style and have never had a broken tip on one.

Lefty
01-18-2012, 11:01 AM
In my experience, a kiritsuke styled tip actually adds some meat to the tip, yet doesn't make it thicker behind the edge. I prefer the look of it and it makes me worry less about damaging the tip.

PierreRodrigue
01-18-2012, 11:06 AM
In all reality, the tip is stronger, there more material behind and above the tip, the angle of the tip is greater, thus stronger, maybe even a tad safer, as it isn't quite as pointy. You would have to push quite a bit harder to say stop an intruder ;) My thoughts. I like the style.

Marko Tsourkan
01-18-2012, 11:12 AM
The difference is stylistic (for looks) as few use the reinforced tip for heavy tip work. I personally like the angled tip on knives where it matters, like honesuke.


M

Cadillac J
01-18-2012, 11:59 AM
Cause it looks pimp...why else O? Pierre's latest suji is a glowing example of that...love that knife.

This tip is what used to attract me to the Kikuichi Elite years ago, and is why I keep looking at a 240 Suisin moly that Jon has with that cool handle.

ThEoRy
01-18-2012, 01:37 PM
Ive read some makers say the shape adds downward force during slicing.

Seth
01-18-2012, 02:19 PM
Gee....where did you say I could buy this knife?

schanop
01-18-2012, 02:19 PM
I quite like the look on my 270 Kamemasa, a long time favourite by many on the low end side until recent price hike:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WzO4v35eMKc/TIvhIAvYwcI/AAAAAAAAEXU/kKegcMXIHyM/s720/IMG_0030.jpg

It is now my bread and crusty roast knife.

PS. The photo is not mine, but I think it is Jon's when he started up JKI.

JBroida
01-18-2012, 02:23 PM
yeah... i took that one ;)

Seth
01-18-2012, 02:41 PM
....so get another one.......?

tk59
01-18-2012, 04:48 PM
Cause it looks pimp...+1
It definitely makes the tip stouter and heavier, as others have mentioned. I'm not sure either of those points matter. It's just sexy.

Marko Tsourkan
01-18-2012, 05:40 PM
+1
It definitely makes the tip stouter and heavier, as others have mentioned. I'm not sure either of those points matter. It's just sexy.

I doubt there is anothing sexier than Bill's suji or a good yanagiba, for that matter. Both with a pointy tip.

:)

Bill Burke
01-19-2012, 12:14 AM
I personaly like the looks of it but don't see how it adds any more strength to the tip than the more traditional tip. If it were a single bevel like a yanagi then yes but with a double bevel ????. Please don't take this as me being an a$$ I am not. I just can't get my head around it.

El Pescador
01-19-2012, 12:34 AM
I can't see it either Bill.

Pesky

Marko Tsourkan
01-19-2012, 08:29 AM
Haha, Bill you cleared the air for everybody.
I too could not think how it would reinforce the tip. The angled portion of the spine is thicker, but tip and immediate area are the same.

M

PierreRodrigue
01-19-2012, 08:46 AM
The angle refered to is the angle created by drawing a line from the heel of the Kiritsuki tip (angled portion of the spine), to the tip, then along the cutting edge. The tip may be the same thickness, but there is more measured metal above any point of the edge, than a long thinner tip. For example, if a line were drawn 5 mm from the tip perpindicular to the edge to the spine on both tip designs, then measured, there would be more metal above the edge on the kiritsuki tip. It isnt that its reinforced perse, just if there is more metal to break, it stands to reason it has to be stronger.

mano
01-19-2012, 09:08 AM
Any thought on this? IMHO it looks wrong, awkward, and would make it almost impossible if you want to cut with the tip.

3879

zitangy
01-19-2012, 09:21 AM
The angle refered to is the angle created by drawing a line from the heel of the Kiritsuki tip (angled portion of the spine), to the tip, then along the cutting edge. The tip may be the same thickness, but there is more measured metal above any point of the edge, than a long thinner tip. For example, if a line were drawn 5 mm from the tip perpindicular to the edge to the spine on both tip designs, then measured, there would be more metal above the edge on the kiritsuki tip. It isnt that its reinforced perse, just if there is more metal to break, it stands to reason it has to be stronger.

You have a point there.. more metal more strength... SO the the meeting point of the tip.. i suppose no difference? perhaps 0.1mm from the tip.. slightly more metal? ( based on the 2 knives on this segment)

perspective a non engineer with a half a blind eye...

oivind_dahle
01-19-2012, 01:11 PM
So this is purely a matter of taste, no performance difference at all?
That said, I like the classic far more than the k tip :) Its more ...hmmmm...classical :)

Pensacola Tiger
01-19-2012, 01:30 PM
So this is purely a matter of taste, no performance difference at all?
That said, I like the classic far more than the k tip :) Its more ...hmmmm...classical :)

Actually, you may have it backwards. The "classic" shape you prefer is a "willow leaf" or yanagiba shape, so technically it is a ryoba yanagiba.

Rick

mainaman
01-19-2012, 02:24 PM
Any thought on this? IMHO it looks wrong, awkward, and would make it almost impossible if you want to cut with the tip.

3879that resembles tanto design, but it is not correct IMHO

TamanegiKin
01-19-2012, 03:42 PM
Kiritsuke tip for the same reason you make knives in damascus. Cuz it looks chingon.

PierreRodrigue
01-19-2012, 03:54 PM
So this is purely a matter of taste, no performance difference at all?
That said, I like the classic far more than the k tip :) Its more ...hmmmm...classical :)

At the end of the day, is there a measureable difference in performance? Likely nothing tangible, or measureable. Purely a matter of taste? Taste or preference would be a large part of the decision true. Practically speaking, is one better than the other? I don't know, but I will offer either design to any customer who asks, and simply state there is more metal on a kiritsuki tip, so in my humble opinion, it is stronger, especially vertically. And for that matter, i'm sure if measured systematically, even laterally. No mater how you slice it, if there is more metal, it will take more effort to break it. I wouldn't call the tip reinforced, as it clearly isn't. Stronger? To a degree, without a doubt.

I mean no insult to any poster to this thread, and if I have to any degree, I apologize. My intent isn't to argue, or cause friction, mearly to express things the way I see them. If I am wrong, then again I apologize, and welcome any rational conversation to that end.

:)

Eamon Burke
01-19-2012, 11:43 PM
Any thought on this? IMHO it looks wrong, awkward, and would make it almost impossible if you want to cut with the tip.

3879

OMG if the tactical-tanto-tip craze hits kitchen knives, I'm forming an advocacy group. Strike that, I'd get pitchforks and torches for everyone.:knight:

Lefty
01-20-2012, 07:01 AM
Who needs pitchforks? Carving forks and kiritsuke tipped sujis ought to keep the tanto pushers at bay!

Bill Burke
01-21-2012, 11:05 PM
Pierre, I can see there being more metel above the tip if the way that you make this style of tip is to make a 300mm suji and then grind it back to 270mm to get the kiritsuki tip. But if both knives were made and ground to the same length, taper and cross sectional geometry then i can't see how there could possibly be any more metel and thus more strength in the tips. IE... if the tips were ground off both knive perpendicular to the edge then the geometry would be identical. like you said I will make either knife for a customer and I think that it is as aesthetically pleasing as the more conventional tip.

PierreRodrigue
01-22-2012, 12:00 AM
Bill, I think we are beating different ends of the same dead horse. You are correct, two knives with different tips, same geometry! Would be the same in cross section, except, if the traditional, and kiritsuki tips, we're chopped of say 5 mm from the tip perpendicular to the edge, the kiritsuki cross section would be taller. Same width, very similar geometry, all true. But because of the height difference, there is more steel above the edge. Am I missing something? I'll toss up a sketch to illustrate my thoughts. If it turns out I'm getting to old and pig headed, and can't see the forest through the trees, I'll eat the per verbal humble pie.

PierreRodrigue
01-22-2012, 12:36 AM
Bill, I think we are beating different ends of the same dead horse. You are correct, two knives with different tips, same geometry! Would be the same in cross section, except, if the traditional, and kiritsuki tips, we're chopped of say 5 mm from the tip perpendicular to the edge, the kiritsuki cross section would be taller. Same width, very similar geometry, all true. But because of the height difference, there is more steel above the edge. Am I missing something? I'll toss up a sketch to illustrate my thoughts. If it turns out I'm getting to old and pig headed, and can't see the forest through the trees, I'll eat the per verbal humble pie.

I hope this helps illustrate what I'm saying. Again, please take this as my point of view, no argument intended. Am I wrong saying more steel means more strength? If I am off base, help this stubborn brain of mine see it.
3932

Bill Burke
01-22-2012, 10:45 AM
Pierre,

I see what you are talking about and you do have a "point".:D you are talking/thinking blade profile, I am talking thinking cross section. But your reasoning is sound and I finally get it. At five mm back from the tip the kiritsuki tip is wider and there for stronger. I was totally thinking cross section and with the same cross section, ( imagine just taking a suji and grinding a kiritsuki tip on it without changing the length ) you have removed material above the tip both in cross section and profile so it could be arguable that the kiritsuki tip is actually more fragile than the traditional tip.