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Hards80
02-05-2012, 05:03 PM
First off, I would like to thank everyone for their welcome. And I am glad I found this forum, I have been lurking over the past few days and trying to pick up a few things.

I am looking to upgrade my kitchen cutlery. For the past 8-10 years been using a mix of Wusthof gourmet and the wusthof emiril branded. I have improved my knife skills, but have not learned about proper sharpening etc. I am looking to get a new set of knives and stones or sharpening system and continue to develop. I am a home cook, cook for myself or myself and my fiance, been cooking ~10 years, just finished grad school and the loans are pretty hefty, as well as getting a house, etc etc. so not looking to break the bank if at all possible.

#1, My initial thought was to go utilitarian, and get a few knives from Forschner. I have read good things about the steel, and the fact that they are not expensive will make me less hesitant to use and sharpen them. Plus it would allow me to explore different blades without going broke in the process. I was thinking a 10" Chef, 7" santoku, I realize they are a bit redundant, but I got really used to using the santoku, but need something bigger sometimes, then maybe a 6" boning, a serrated utility and a 3.5 parer.

#2, There is a good price on a 5 piece set of Miyabi 5000s stainless by Henckels. A good looking set, but was unsure what kind of steel they are using there, I assume its the same as their german forged? I was a little concerned by the "Asymetrical edge", how would this impact sharpening, what is the edge angle? And the chef knife was only 8", but that is probably fine.


Sharpening?
#1 get a couple of stones and some resource on how to use them
#2 get a 3 stage system like the Global Minosharp 3 (would this be the right angle for the Miyabi?), or the Chef Choice 4623

or none of the above, open to suggestions.

tk59
02-05-2012, 05:43 PM
Those Miyabis are the same german stainless. Here's another good deal on those: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4651-Miyabi-5000s-for-sale. The asymmetric bevels aren't a problem. As you sharpen, they will become whatever you decide is appropriate for your needs. Forschners are a good idea too, depending on your budget. They don't hold an edge long but they are good solid options. I would start with a single stone in the 1-5k range depending on what you buy and a flattener. For Forschners I'd go with 1k. My personal favorite is the Gesshin 1k. A very good inexpensive option is Bester 1.2k. I wouldn't bother with the sharpening rigs, machines, etc. If you take your time and have a little patience, you'll be able to put serviceable edges on knives pretty quickly.

If I were you, I'd consider Fujiwaras or CarboNext. Get one good knife and go from there.

NO ChoP!
02-05-2012, 08:56 PM
I'd scrap the santoku, the boning and especially the serrated utilty. Maybe a chef and a petty would be a good choice. TK's recommendations are money...

Hards80
02-05-2012, 09:54 PM
If I were to go with say the Fujiwara, would you go with the carbon or the stainless. handwashing/drying is a given, so the carbon would seem the better option with the harder steel.

what about the Tojiro DP series, alot of good press about those too, for starter j-knives.

JasonD
02-05-2012, 11:38 PM
I've had good experience with Fujiwara's stainless knives. They're my go-to suggestion when friends/family ask for suggestions on a nicer knife. I think the carbon line from Fujiwara has a reputation for some pretty extreme reactivity. I'll let someone who's actually used them comment further though.

I had a Tojiro DP suji at one point that was thinned by the previous owner and cut beautifully. I sometimes still regret letting that one go.

tk59
02-05-2012, 11:45 PM
I used to recommend Tojiro DP all the time. Over time, I've decided they really are more chippy than they need to be. With regard to Fujiwara stainless vs carbon, I would go with the stainless if it is going to be your primary knife, as Jason suggested. Fujiwara carbon gets onion, garlic, mangos, etc stinky and gross even with a heavy patina. If you already have or are getting something less reactive, then the carbon is fine.

Deckhand
02-06-2012, 12:01 AM
For not trying to break the bank. Tojiro is nice. Good fit and finish. I have a tojiro senkou parer now, and a tojiro itk bread knife on the way. The bread knife I would have bought for a lot more than the $55 with free shipping. Its bad ass. Look it up on you tube. Definitely more than just a bread knife. That being said a gyuto in 240mm is usually recommended first. I bought a 210mm first, but will be getting a 240mm. I think buying individual knives is better than a set. Santuko appears to be a dirty word around the forums, but many respected members have them. I have a misono ux10 santuko on the way until I get a hattori KD(one day.)

tk59
02-06-2012, 12:46 AM
For not trying to break the bank. Tojiro is nice. Good fit and finish. I have a tojiro senkou parer now, and a tojiro itk bread knife on the way. The bread knife I would have bought for a lot more than the $55 with free shipping. Its bad ass. Look it up on you tube. Definitely more than just a bread knife. That being said a gyuto in 240mm is usually recommended first. I bought a 210mm first, but will be getting a 240mm. I think buying individual knives is better than a set. Santuko appears to be a dirty word around the forums, but many respected members have them. I have a misono ux10 santuko on the way until I get a hattori KD(one day.)The bread knife is made from a different steel. Santoku isn't a dirty word, it's just the knife everyone has but only a few actually use. I own two, myself. Tojiro isn't bad. I have one of those, too and I've given them as gifts. However, I no longer believe they are the best low cost option unless you really can't spare the extra cash. Comparing side by side, Fujiwara will outcut Tojiro. Edge retention on the Tojiro is slightly better but it is chippy and not all that corrosion resistant. Fujiwara fit and finish is superior. If you like large handles, Tojiro might be the way to go but many complain of the blockiness.

Hards80
02-06-2012, 02:05 AM
Thanks all for the suggestions, I am seeing that I would be better off starting with a 240mm gyuto and 120mm petty from either Fujiwara or Tojiro, similar in price. Seems the Fujiwara is a little bit more highly recommended, but the 70/30 bevel still has me a little worried on sharpening, but let me make sure i have this right, this refers only to the bevel, the edge might still be 15 degrees on both, or 12 both? The tojiro on paper sound easier with a simple ~15 on each side with a 50/50 bevel, or at least thats what a dirty search of the internet says. But in reality does this impact my sharpening at all?

The more I read, the more questions I have, and knowing how I am with things, the more I know, the more and more expensive j-knives I will find myself thinking I "need".. sigh, my wallet is scared....

tk59
02-06-2012, 02:09 AM
I wouldn't worry about the bevels too much at this point. You'll be fine. Ask a lot of questions and be patient. The bevels on new knives are generally not great anyway so no worries there. Use the magic marker trick. If you screw up your bevels, I'll fix it for you. :)

Deckhand
02-06-2012, 02:38 AM
The bread knife is made from a different steel. Santoku isn't a dirty word, it's just the knife everyone has but only a few actually use. I own two, myself. Tojiro isn't bad. I have one of those, too and I've given them as gifts. However, I no longer believe they are the best low cost option unless you really can't spare the extra cash. Comparing side by side, Fujiwara will outcut Tojiro. Edge retention on the Tojiro is slightly better but it is chippy and not all that corrosion resistant. Fujiwara fit and finish is superior. If you like large handles, Tojiro might be the way to go but many complain of the blockiness.


No doubt you have more knowledge on brands. Fujiwara no doubt is better. The fit and finish on my tojiro senkou is good but it isn't the DP series. Also, the tojiro itk bread knife is as you say different with the steel as well as the wood handle.My current experience is very limited to misono, hattori, and tojiro. It regards to santukos it appears that here and other forums typically start advice on santuko threads by saying buy a gyuto. I personally enjoy both. In regards to any and all sharpening I know I am completely clueless and will have them professionally done until I grow my knife collection more then will start getting Japanese water stones and probably an edge pro, but currently totally clueless on sharpening.

Deckhand
02-06-2012, 02:41 AM
Thanks all for the suggestions, I am seeing that I would be better off starting with a 240mm gyuto and 120mm petty from either Fujiwara or Tojiro, similar in price. Seems the Fujiwara is a little bit more highly recommended, but the 70/30 bevel still has me a little worried on sharpening, but let me make sure i have this right, this refers only to the bevel, the edge might still be 15 degrees on both, or 12 both? The tojiro on paper sound easier with a simple ~15 on each side with a 50/50 bevel, or at least thats what a dirty search of the internet says. But in reality does this impact my sharpening at all?

The more I read, the more questions I have, and knowing how I am with things, the more I know, the more and more expensive j-knives I will find myself thinking I "need".. sigh, my wallet is scared....
All the best. It is true the more you read and look the more you will want.

ThEoRy
02-06-2012, 05:39 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5xbLgg72CBs/TSgcW32uN7I/AAAAAAAAIcM/uXgQCrbVzPA/s1600/down-the-rabbit-hole.jpg

Lefty
02-06-2012, 12:16 PM
^ :D
Sooooo true!
But yeah, don't sweat the asymmetry. Just follow the angle that is already there, at the start and you'll be fine. Another thing that you could try is to ask Koki to look for one that is closer to 50/50. Since they're all a bit different, he should be able to find a less biased blade. It worked for me.

Hards80
02-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Again thanks to everyone. After taking all the advice into consideration as well as my own thoughts.

I think I am going to get a Forschner 10" Chef and 3-4" petty and a nice 1k stone, the softer steel and simple edge will aid my beginning sharpening and i wont be afraid of scratching a blade, etc at that price. I will read and watch all the sharpening tutorial I can, and practice on the stone weekly for a few months til I feel comfortable with getting a nice edge and start getting a feel of it. Once I feel comfortable, I can then I will look into a 240 gyuto from the likes of Fujiwara etc, and adding a finishing stone in the 4-6k range. From there I can keep building on the set, and sharpening techniques. I am sure after a few months of hanging out on here, etc, I will be better informed to make my decision on my first j-knife.

stevenStefano
02-06-2012, 01:14 PM
Very wise decision. If you keep hanging around the forums, by the time you feel comfortable sharpening and you know what you want, the next decision should be a lot easier

DanB
02-06-2012, 01:31 PM
No doubt you have more knowledge on brands. Fujiwara no doubt is better. The fit and finish on my tojiro senkou is good but it isn't the DP series. Also, the tojiro itk bread knife is as you say different with the steel as well as the wood handle.My current experience is very limited to misono, hattori, and tojiro. It regards to santukos it appears that here and other forums typically start advice on santuko threads by saying buy a gyuto. I personally enjoy both. In regards to any and all sharpening I know I am completely clueless and will have them professionally done until I grow my knife collection more then will start getting Japanese water stones and probably an edge pro, but currently totally clueless on sharpening.

I'm currently using the Tojiro Senkou 240mm chef's knife and like it a lot so far. Haven't had it long enough to know if chipping is going to be a problem, but it is clad in more layers than the DP series. Of course the price is higher too, but not crazy high and certainly not higher than many other knives being talked about. And the handle on the Senkou is very nice. The opposite of blocky (I didn't like the DP for this reason either). Came very sharp but could probably be even sharper.

Deckhand
02-06-2012, 02:31 PM
I'm currently using the Tojiro Senkou 240mm chef's knife and like it a lot so far. Haven't had it long enough to know if chipping is going to be a problem, but it is clad in more layers than the DP series. Of course the price is higher too, but not crazy high and certainly not higher than many other knives being talked about. And the handle on the Senkou is very nice. The opposite of blocky (I didn't like the DP for this reason either). Came very sharp but could probably be even sharper.
Agree. I like my tojiro senkou a lot. I know I am at the very beginning and it will take years to get a good collection and skills. Guys like Bishamon and Salty have amazing collections. This whole forum thing is very familiar I helped lots and lots of people with knowledge and defending noobies on bloody decks a saltwater fishing forum. I love this obsession. I love kitchen knives and cooking.