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Bill Burke
02-16-2012, 12:50 PM
What do you guys out there think is the biggest factor in good food release? what food do you expect to not release not matter the geometry?

I find that a convex grind gives me the best release, and then of couse a convex edge helps alot with a steeper/fatter convex on the edge being very important.

Benuser
02-16-2012, 05:04 PM
I think the most important factor is the convex blade rather than the edge itself. All my edges being more or less convex I didn't notice any difference. More or less convexity of the blade though may change a lot. Another factor is the blade's finish.

WildBoar
02-16-2012, 07:06 PM
My experience is fairly limited compared to many on this forum, but the worst gyuto offenders I've tried to far were ground flat on the sides, and/ or had deeply etched damascus. The release issues with these knives really showed up for when when slicing onions, apples and garlic.

As far as foods I've come to never expect to be relased, garlic (minced) is by far at the top of my list. Adjusting technique has helped reduce it a bit, but I still need a lot of finger wipes on the two petty/ utilities I normally use for mincing. One is 52100 with some convex grind, and one is CPM154 with a higher-grit finish and less of a convex grind.

Salty dog
02-16-2012, 07:16 PM
Pronounced lower blade convexivity. (If that's a word)

Also food will stick less if the blade is shorter than the product you're cutting. In other words you may have to use a different part of the blade for different foods.

Johnny.B.Good
02-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Also food will stick less if the blade is shorter than the product you're cutting. In other words you may have to use a different part of the blade for different foods.

This never occurred to me, but it makes sense. I want to see a video of you mincing garlic Salty. It's so sticky it drives me crazy, though I'm sure my poor technique is a big part of the problem. As a result, I generally rely on this (http://www.amazon.com/Rosle-12782-R%C3%B6sle-Garlic-Press/dp/B000063Y8F/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329438706&sr=8-1), which I'm sure you professionals would never do.

Edit: I think I have seen Pepin just smash garlic with the back of his knife and then chop what's left up a tiny bit...

EdipisReks
02-16-2012, 07:42 PM
This never occurred to me, but it makes sense. I want to see a video of you mincing garlic Salty. It's so sticky it drives me crazy, though I'm sure my poor technique is a big part of the problem. As a result, I generally rely on this (http://www.amazon.com/Rosle-12782-R%C3%B6sle-Garlic-Press/dp/B000063Y8F/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329438706&sr=8-1), which I'm sure you professionals would never do.

Edit: I think I have seen Pepin just smash garlic with the back of his knife and then chop what's left up a tiny bit...

i use the very tip of a gyuto for mincing garlic, and i find it to work pretty well. minced garlic is always going to stick, though, unless you teflon your knives. maybe even then.

Deckhand
02-16-2012, 07:46 PM
This never occurred to me, but it makes sense. I want to see a video of you mincing garlic Salty. It's so sticky it drives me crazy, though I'm sure my poor technique is a big part of the problem. As a result, I generally rely on this (http://www.amazon.com/Rosle-12782-R%C3%B6sle-Garlic-Press/dp/B000063Y8F/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329438706&sr=8-1), which I'm sure you professionals would never do.

Edit: I think I have seen Pepin just smash garlic with the back of his knife and then chop what's left up a tiny bit...

Ditto same problem. Would be a good video. Sometimes I use my knives. Sometimes a sur la table garlic chopper my mom gave me. It's like a mini slap chop. I know I know.

EdipisReks
02-16-2012, 07:49 PM
hey, if it works for you, it works for you. i find myself using jarred minced and chopped garlic as much as fresh, these days.

Johnny.B.Good
02-16-2012, 07:58 PM
hey, if it works for you, it works for you. i find myself using jarred minced and chopped garlic as much as fresh, these days.

What would Bourdain say about us? ;)

The Rosle press actually does work well...

Deckhand
02-16-2012, 08:00 PM
hey, if it works for you, it works for you. i find myself using jarred minced and chopped garlic as much as fresh, these days.
Actually My garlic chopper works pretty well. Unfortunately, it almost looks like those Shake a weights commercials. I guess I could have her do it for me:biggrin:

EdipisReks
02-16-2012, 08:10 PM
What would Bourdain say about us? ;)

The Rosle press actually does work well...

i've yet to see Bourdain use a knife decently, so who cares. ;)



Actually My garlic chopper works pretty well. Unfortunately, it almost looks like those Shake a weights commercials. I guess I could have her do it for me:biggrin:


as long as it has the cooling mist (http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s14e14-creme-fraiche).

Deckhand
02-16-2012, 09:22 PM
That was funny!

PierreRodrigue
02-16-2012, 09:27 PM
That was funny!Your mailbox is full...

Now back to your regularly schedualed programing!

Deckhand
02-16-2012, 09:53 PM
Your mailbox is full...

Now back to your regularly schedualed programing!

Ditto and I deleted some

sachem allison
02-16-2012, 11:05 PM
Actually My garlic chopper works pretty well. Unfortunately, it almost looks like those Shake a weights commercials. I guess I could have her do it for me:biggrin:

your mom gave it to you, remember

Deckhand
02-16-2012, 11:41 PM
your mom gave it to you, remember
Wow you just completely ruined any chance of enjoyment watching my wife with that.:O

tk59
02-17-2012, 12:06 AM
Pronounced lower blade convexivity. (If that's a word)

Also food will stick less if the blade is shorter than the product you're cutting. In other words you may have to use a different part of the blade for different foods.Yup. The trick is to balance that with thickness near the edge.

JohnnyChance
02-17-2012, 02:03 AM
Minced garlic? It is always going to stick. Each piece is so small that there isn't enough convexity in that 1mm or less surface area of blade to release the little piece of garlic. Chop up the pile, wipe off the blade, reorganize the pile, repeat until it is as fine as you desire.

Andrew H
02-17-2012, 02:38 AM
Minced garlic? It is always going to stick. Each piece is so small that there isn't enough convexity in that 1mm or less surface area of blade to release the little piece of garlic.

Agreed.

Ordo
02-17-2012, 09:07 AM
Check Saltydog videos about grinding and food release.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XTGYY4yE0&list=UUX6VEhNbmCnY8jPrF6VTzOA&index=37&feature=plcp

Eamon Burke
02-17-2012, 03:08 PM
For me, food sticking has less to do with release and more to do with drag when cutting. Stuff will always stick to your blade to some degree. Mirror-shiny, dead flat, tall faces on thin blades are hilarious though--they collect food like hoarding drugs.

Bill Burke
02-20-2012, 10:26 AM
For me, food sticking has less to do with release and more to do with drag when cutting. Stuff will always stick to your blade to some degree. Mirror-shiny, dead flat, tall faces on thin blades are hilarious though--they collect food like hoarding drugs.

So why do so many people like laser type knives? these would seem to me to be the worst as far as food sticking to them. andthey are a ***** to grind.

Eamon Burke
02-20-2012, 10:56 AM
Because they cut better, by way of distributing force more directly and wedging less. They are also lighter, and quicker to sharpen. Not everyone worships at the altar of thin, either. I would imagine that for collectors it is also a testament to the maker's grinding skill if done well...because it is a zero tolerance PITA.

RRLOVER
02-20-2012, 11:04 AM
So why do so many people like laser type knives? these would seem to me to be the worst as far as food sticking to them. andthey are a ***** to grind.



I think that people who love a laser just deal with the food sticking.I have owned/own some thin one and they do fall through the food with ease but the food sticks badly.I personally like a more robust knife and it has nothing to do with food release.I think you can find a happy medium between laser and sturdy.

stevenStefano
02-20-2012, 11:08 AM
I am a lefty so basically I get screwed with food release no matter what, and I love my thin knives. Would an asymmetric edge not help with food release? That is what I find anyway, the release on My HD isn't bad considering the wrong side is convex for leftys. Food release doesn't mean a whole lot to me to be honest

tk59
02-20-2012, 12:08 PM
Because they cut better, by way of distributing force more directly and wedging less. They are also lighter, and quicker to sharpen. Not everyone worships at the altar of thin, either. I would imagine that for collectors it is also a testament to the maker's grinding skill if done well...because it is a zero tolerance PITA.+1. As RRLOVER mentioned, you do deal with a little stickage using very thin knives. As I use mine, I grind an extreme asymmetry on the blade face and deals with stickage as well as most thicker knives.

oivind_dahle
02-20-2012, 12:31 PM
Best cutter Ive had was a shigefusa. And it was no laser....

Laser better cutters? Don't think so based on my limited experience...

JohnnyChance
02-20-2012, 01:15 PM
Yeah, most of the best cutters I have used are not lasers. There is just more material to work with, so the difference between the "high" and "low" spots of the grind can be of a greater difference (for lack of better words). So that can lead to less surface area in contact with the product and less sticking/friction. Depending on the thickness at and behind the edge, it can make a great cutter and one with pretty decent food release.

There is a Mighty vs Laser thread here (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4904-Gyuto-Mighty-vs-Laser).

jmforge
02-20-2012, 01:38 PM
It's a word now. :doublethumbsup: Are you saying that a blade that is too convexed as in too thick down close to the edge?

JohnnyChance
02-20-2012, 01:44 PM
I don't know what part of my statement you are referring to or what you are asking exactly.

oivind_dahle
02-20-2012, 01:46 PM
I prefer convex all the way to the spine :)

jmforge
02-20-2012, 01:47 PM
The part where you said that "lower blade convexity" might be a cause for sticking.
I don't know what part of my statement you are referring to or what you are asking exactly.

SpikeC
02-20-2012, 02:25 PM
As in "less" blade convexity?

Dave Martell
02-20-2012, 03:57 PM
The closer you get to a full flat grind the more sticking you get (but you also get less resistance - falls through the food better) but the answer isn't as simple as saying convex is better (for pushing food away - release) because convex can very easily be too thick and cause wedging (too much resistance). There's a fine line - a balancing point - between nearly flat with a slight convex and too thick that seems to be the sweet spot - the holy grail - the un-achievable. :)

JohnnyChance
02-20-2012, 05:09 PM
The part where you said that "lower blade convexity" might be a cause for sticking.

What part is that? I must not have worded it correctly because that was not what I was trying to convey.

jmforge
02-20-2012, 05:14 PM
That's because you didn't say it. Salty did. :big grin: so Salty...did you mean a blade that is con vexed too much toward the edge or one that is too flat?
What part is that? I must not have worded it correctly because that was not what I was trying to convey.

Christo711
02-20-2012, 05:40 PM
I think a minimum in blade surface area is key. I almost prefer slicers with just enough knuckle clearance to rock the knife than tall bulky chef knives. Thinner the better as always, and I agree with Bill about convex grind. The Blazen Slicing Knife I picked up at EE is a great example of the Slicer/Chefs Knife 'hybrid' - do I dare say any kind of indented blade for less stick?

jmforge
02-20-2012, 05:47 PM
From what I have read on here, I get the impression that Shigefusa knives look like they have been hollow ground, albeit on a wheel the size of a kiddie pool. How do they work as far as stiction goes?

Andrew H
02-20-2012, 06:27 PM
That's because you didn't say it. Salty did. :big grin: so Salty...did you mean a blade that is con vexed too much toward the edge or one that is too flat?

If you have extreme convexity near the edge your knife will typically be thicker than you want it to be in the mid-section. It's a very hard balance to strike, you want your convex hump to be close to the edge so smaller produce is pushed off the blade by it, but not too low that your knife is thick and wedges.
That's why Shigefusa grinds his knives the way he does. Concave from spine down, then flattens out, then convex near the edge. This type of grind lets the midsection of the knife be thin (less wedging) while you get the some of the benefits of the convex grind.

JohnnyChance
02-20-2012, 06:46 PM
From what I have read on here, I get the impression that Shigefusa knives look like they have been hollow ground, albeit on a wheel the size of a kiddie pool. How do they work as far as stiction goes?


If you have extreme convexity near the edge your knife will typically be thicker than you want it to be in the mid-section. It's a very hard balance to strike, you want your convex hump to be close to the edge so smaller produce is pushed off the blade by it, but not too low that your knife is thick and wedges.
That's why Shigefusa grinds his knives the way he does. Concave from spine down, then flattens out, then convex near the edge. This type of grind lets the midsection of the knife be thin (less wedging) while you get the some of the benefits of the convex grind.

Yup. Shigefusa, Takeda, Carter, etc. All some variation of the same principle. I find them to release food pretty well, not it is a high priority for me, I enjoy them mostly because they cut well. The finish is also a factor, the rustic finish of Takedas, Carters, etc can also help prevent food from sticking.

You don't have to use a giant grinder wheel either. You could beat that hollow in with a hammer a la Carter and Takeda. Shigefusa clads their knives in a soft carbon steel so they can actually scrape the shape of the blade on the blade face with a sen. It also helps finishing the blade as it is easily to work soft metal than hard metal. I don't know of many makers that have partially hollow ground knives and DON'T use a rustic finish or soft cladding, as I imagine finishing a knife with a hollow grind on part of a hardened blade requires plenty of hand finishing. Other than Shun that is! :D

jmforge
02-20-2012, 10:04 PM
If you are hand finishing a blade, the shape of the grind should't make as much difference. You just need to have tools that fit. Trying to do it on machines might be a problem. The issue that I see with thin knives like kitchen cutlery is that you have to do more work after hardening. the good news is there isn't that much steel there to begin with. :biggrin:
Yup. Shigefusa, Takeda, Carter, etc. All some variation of the same principle. I find them to release food pretty well, not it is a high priority for me, I enjoy them mostly because they cut well. The finish is also a factor, the rustic finish of Takedas, Carters, etc can also help prevent food from sticking.

You don't have to use a giant grinder wheel either. You could beat that hollow in with a hammer a la Carter and Takeda. Shigefusa clads their knives in a soft carbon steel so they can actually scrape the shape of the blade on the blade face with a sen. It also helps finishing the blade as it is easily to work soft metal than hard metal. I don't know of many makers that have partially hollow ground knives and DON'T use a rustic finish or soft cladding, as I imagine finishing a knife with a hollow grind on part of a hardened blade requires plenty of hand finishing. Other than Shun that is! :D

tk59
02-20-2012, 10:23 PM
I have a knife that is nearly flat ground but the edge bevels are very asymmetric. Food release on this knife is one of the best I've ever tried. Basically, you want the food to have as little contact with the knife face at any one time, as possible. +1 to Dave and his holy grail comment. :)

JohnnyChance
02-21-2012, 12:28 AM
If you are hand finishing a blade, the shape of the grind should't make as much difference. You just need to have tools that fit. Trying to do it on machines might be a problem. The issue that I see with thin knives like kitchen cutlery is that you have to do more work after hardening. the good news is there isn't that much steel there to begin with. :biggrin:

Right, if you are hand finishing from start to finish, either grind will take about the same amount of time. If you do some finishing on the grinder then switch to hand, convex or flat grind will take less time.