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mr drinky
02-21-2012, 11:30 PM
I am in the beginning stages of planning for a set of 4-6 damascus butter/table knives. My idea is to have different forum knife makers make a butter knife (w/o handle) to spec with a different type of damascus steel. Then I would send the knives to one person for the handles. So basically it will be 4-6 different types of damascus with the same style handle to sort of make it a set.

I want the knives to be versatile -- to be used as regular table knives, pastry knives, condiment spreaders, cheese knives etc. I am thinking of those vintage butter knives (see pictures below), but I thought I would throw it out to the forum for input. Since it involves different makers I want the specs to be sound first.

Some things I am considering (or not decided on) are:

* Making one side with a bevel or making it equally flat/sharp on each side.
* Wa handles or a modified full-tang wa like Del's knives.
* Optimal length? If it is too long it gets cumbersome for condiments. I've even thought of doing a longer one paired with a shorter 'brother' for condiments.
* Shape of blade. I am fond of the very rounded tip with no belly.

Does anyone have any good ideas or things I should consider? See some of the exemplar photos below.

Btw, I've already mentioned this to a couple knife makers and will be contacting others. If any are interested please PM me.

k.

Tristan
02-22-2012, 12:03 AM
I'm more into the idea of normal kitchen knives than butter knives. If they are sharpened and can be used as general table knives - I can spread butter with a steak knife but not vice versa, I would love to get on board for a set of 6 to make this more sensible for the makers in volume (if that is a consideration).

If you want to keep this one of a kind, I'll happily bow out... :)

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 12:32 AM
see if you can find some pics of the old russell green river works table knives, I think that might be what you are looking for.

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 12:49 AM
Son, I think you are right. It has a nice length, a clear bevel to one side and the rounded tip. Here are some pictures I rounded up.

Thanks.

k.

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 12:52 AM
some of my favorites

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 12:58 AM
I just bought a couple samples off of eBay to see how they look.

k.

Johnny.B.Good
02-22-2012, 01:26 AM
Cool idea. Will be fun to watch this come together.

I would keep the butter knives small (like the one at the bottom of your first post). They are easier to use and to rest on one's butter plate.

Wa handles are definitely my preference when it comes to kitchen knives, but I don't know about table knives...

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 02:26 AM
I just bought a couple samples off of eBay to see how they look.

k.

that was you, Bastard! I was just in the process, when somebody beat me to it.

Deckhand
02-22-2012, 02:36 AM
I just bought a couple samples off of eBay to see how they look.

k.
I was high bidder. You sniped those in the last 5 sec. I need a quicker Internet provider and a automatic bidding program. Bastard!!

Johnny.B.Good
02-22-2012, 02:49 AM
That's hilarious that all three of you were bidding on the same item. You two just cost Drinky some money!

Let's see what had you all so excited.

Deckhand
02-22-2012, 02:56 AM
That's hilarious that all three of you were bidding on the same item. You two just cost Drinky some money!

Let's see what had you all so excited.

Actually, I was shill bidding for the owner. :rofl2: Never would have done that if I knew son was bidding on it. Oops, actually it just appeared that way I was trying to win. Darn! I hate losing.

apicius9
02-22-2012, 03:02 AM
Great idea, but I love these old bakelite knives with the round tips, I would probably leave them as they are. If I had the funds, I would go for a varied set of steak knives instead, but I will still sit back and watch this project, I'd love to see how that goes.

Stefan

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 03:02 AM
Actually, I was shill bidding for the owner. :rofl2: Never would have done that if I knew son was bidding on it. Oops, actually it just appeared that way I was trying to win. Darn! I hate losing.

actually, i have no idea what Karring bought, I was going to bid on a few russell table/ dinner knives and send them to him as samples, but somebody bought them before I could pull the trigger.

Deckhand
02-22-2012, 03:11 AM
actually, i have no idea what Karring bought, I was going to bid on a few russell table/ dinner knives and send them to him as samples, but somebody bought them before I could pull the trigger.
Good to hear. I have stayed away from eBay other than bidding on Vintage berkel slicers.

Deckhand
02-22-2012, 03:12 AM
Sorry was double posting error

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 03:20 AM
You could consider doing it in damascus and no wooden handle. Like this:
http://www.naturlige.no/image/cache/data/kitchen/t1103butterknife01-500x500.jpghttp://www.naturlige.no/image/cache/data/kitchen/t1103butterknife03-500x500.jpg

Here is another option:
http://www.vaslitre.com/images/skaft/stort/smoerkniv.jpg

Me on the other hand would have gone for fewer but bigger butter knives.
Ive fallen in love with this one:
http://www.fiskarsbilledbank.xsitecms.dk/modules/BilledBank/upl/1742.jpg

That kind of shape. You wanna have a knife with that big surface :) I would go western handle. My 2 cent

banjo1071
02-22-2012, 05:45 AM
Hi everyone

Jürgen Schnanz offeres semi-custom classic german breakfast-knives (Buckels) made from Niolox/SB1 : http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=88997
Herdes has them in carbon/cherry: http://www.messer-mit-tradition.de/windmuehlenmesser.php?Buckels-Besteck-Buckelsklinge&rub=20

I have the Herders, they are quite thin (very interesting company btw) and offer quite some value

Just as a thought
Greets
Benjamin

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 10:05 AM
Oivind, that first one would be a very cool shape for condiment servers. I was considering these Pendray knives a while back, and I loved the look of having the entire knife out of damascus.

k.

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Hi everyone

Jürgen Schnanz offeres semi-custom classic german breakfast-knives (Buckels) made from Niolox/SB1 : http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=88997
Herdes has them in carbon/cherry: http://www.messer-mit-tradition.de/windmuehlenmesser.php?Buckels-Besteck-Buckelsklinge&rub=20

I have the Herders, they are quite thin (very interesting company btw) and offer quite some value

Just as a thought
Greets
Benjamin

Thanks, for the German links. Those knives are right up my alley too, and I like the handles without bolsters. Btw, Mr Drinky registered at MesserForum to see the photos but after doing so I did not have the right permissions to look at the photos. Their forum rules outran my German language skills ;)

k.

banjo1071
02-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Hi
Yeah. It takes a few days for the registration to be active, the admins are very busy there..
Jürgen makes good, thin knives for a great price. I have some of his semi-custom work....:

http://www.messerkontor.eu/KOCHMESSER-FIRMEN/Juergen-Schanz:::3_608.html

Greets B

HHH Knives
02-22-2012, 11:13 AM
Found these at a estate and thought the handles were just to cool. Heres a few pictures of them.. I dont know if it fits into what your thinking. There just to cool! :)

dschonbrun
02-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Hi Dinky,

I think it will be easiest for you to get a consistent set if you have several different blade-smiths provide you blanks of different damascus in a consistent set of dimensions, and then have one single person cut the pattern and grind each down to the right blade profile. A handle maker could apply the handle or scales and pins, then do the final finishing and polishing. This would get you a matching set that has unique steel qualities and flair, yet still look and feel consistent at the table.

The knives you've indicated a preference for have a blade profile much like a spatula, which come from the pastry arena (French and German traditions). To make them useful for a wider range of foods and condiments, adding bit of belly is a good idea (English silver style).

This is a great idea and I'm excited to see it develop.

Best of Luck,
D

Deckhand
02-22-2012, 11:32 AM
Found these at a estate and thought the handles were just to cool. Heres a few pictures of them.. I dont know if it fits into what your thinking. There just to cool! :)

Those handles are really cool.

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Mr Drinky

I ordered 2 knives to day: One for me and one for you.
Im sending it to you as soon as I get mine. Its this one: http://www.naturlige.no/image/cache/data/kitchen/t1103butterknife03-500x500.jpg

Ill contact you on your pm for address. This is a gift from me to you, so no charge ;) I might send another one as well, and if both you and I are both satisfied I could join into a order for a better price. I would prefer if Devin did the knives, as I want his stainless damscus on this one. If you agree you can send the knife to him after testing it :)

Sending you a pm when I got the knives :)

tkern
02-22-2012, 01:05 PM
Karring,

Heres a few from etsy that might strike your fancy:

http://www.etsy.com/listing/91511226/antique-meriden-butter-knives-with?ref=sr_gallery_34&sref=&ga_search_submit=&ga_search_query=butter+knife&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=US&ga_page=2&ga_search_type=all&ga_facet=

http://www.etsy.com/listing/88840660/silver-plated-vintage-butter-knives?ref=sr_gallery_27&sref=&ga_search_submit=&ga_search_query=butter+knife&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=US&ga_page=4&ga_search_type=all&ga_facet=

http://www.etsy.com/listing/67089231/silverplate-butter-knives-set-of-6?ref=sr_gallery_17&sref=&ga_search_submit=&ga_search_query=butter+knife&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=US&ga_page=8&ga_search_type=all&ga_facet=

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 04:42 PM
Mr Drinky

I ordered 2 knives to day: One for me and one for you.
Im sending it to you as soon as I get mine. Its this one: http://www.naturlige.no/image/cache/data/kitchen/t1103butterknife03-500x500.jpg

Ill contact you on your pm for address. This is a gift from me to you, so no charge ;) I might send another one as well, and if both you and I are both satisfied I could join into a order for a better price. I would prefer if Devin did the knives, as I want his stainless damscus on this one. If you agree you can send the knife to him after testing it :)

Sending you a pm when I got the knives :)

Wow, thanks Ø. That's very generous. And Devin was the first person I brought this up with last summer, but I never got around to refining the idea -- though I did buy some vintage sample knives.


Hi Dinky,

I think it will be easiest for you to get a consistent set if you have several different blade-smiths provide you blanks of different damascus in a consistent set of dimensions, and then have one single person cut the pattern and grind each down to the right blade profile. A handle maker could apply the handle or scales and pins, then do the final finishing and polishing. This would get you a matching set that has unique steel qualities and flair, yet still look and feel consistent at the table.

D

D, that might be a good idea. Get it cut and heat treated and then sent off for the grind and handles.


Found these at a estate and thought the handles were just to cool. Heres a few pictures of them.. I dont know if it fits into what your thinking. There just to cool! :)

That handle is amazing and I would LOVE something like that, but I always wonder about that sort of detail and the cost. But thanks for pimping my concept of what is possible ;)


And lastly to the enabler tkern. I just ordered that set from the UK. Good thing I make my own butter ;)

Here is the picture of the ones I got.

k.

tkern
02-22-2012, 04:47 PM
ha!

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 05:14 PM
Nice. Don't do anything before involving me then ;)

I don't know if the knives I order for us will be any good in steel. Its wooden knives, and I think the wood gives it more flex than a steel one.
Anyway, I guess I have it within a week, and will ship it to you then :) If the price is right I might go for 2 or 3 knives. Would be fun if we could have a group buy at devin.

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 05:19 PM
Nice. Don't do anything before involving me then ;)

I don't know if the knives I order for us will be any good in steel. Its wooden knives, and I think the wood gives it more flex than a steel one.
Anyway, I guess I have it within a week, and will ship it to you then :) If the price is right I might go for 2 or 3 knives. Would be fun if we could have a group buy at devin.

aren't you on a no buy for all of 2012? Or was that a dream sequence I had?

Johnny.B.Good
02-22-2012, 05:21 PM
aren't you on a no buy for all of 2012? Or was that a dream sequence I had?

Kitchen knives, not table knives, right Oivind? ;)

WildBoar
02-22-2012, 05:22 PM
aren't you on a no buy for all of 2012? Or was that a dream sequence I had?That is funny coming from the guy who seems to camp out on eBay :lol2:

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 05:23 PM
Kitchen knives, not table knives, right Oivind? ;)

Absolutely! :)
Table knives is not kitchen knives :P

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 05:26 PM
That is funny coming from the guy who seems to camp out on eBay :lol2:
i never buy anything though, i like to look at the prices that the stuff I have in storage goes for. Apparently I got a lot of stuff. I don't spend near as much time as I used to since I found this place

sachem allison
02-22-2012, 05:27 PM
Absolutely! :)
Table knives is not kitchen knives :P

sorry, my bad

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 05:29 PM
hehe. You are right. I just got a rush when I see things I want.

There are mainly to posters here I really shouldn't read posts from: Mr Drinky and Chef Niloc. When ever I read a post from those guys I know its gonna cost me... :(

Justin0505
02-22-2012, 05:44 PM
I've been waiting for this post for a long time. Unless you want to be the only kid with the coolest table knives, I would be really happy to get on board with this project and get a set of my own. If you organized a group buy, you could pad the cost a bit and discount your own set :)

My vote is for the monolithic look of steel blade, bolster and handle all made out of a contiguous Damascus chunk.

I do kinda like the idea of each knife being each makers own interpretation of the specs, but the other option would be to just get the raw billets from each maker and have one guy do the forging.
IMO, fully forged, integral bolsters are essential for the ultimate table knife.
Rader makes the best that I've seen and his prices are reasonable... Just sayin'...

mr drinky
02-22-2012, 06:22 PM
I've been waiting for this post for a long time. Unless you want to be the only kid with the coolest table knives, I would be really happy to get on board with this project and get a set of my own. If you organized a group buy, you could pad the cost a bit and discount your own set :)

My vote is for the monolithic look of steel blade, bolster and handle all made out of a contiguous Damascus chunk.

I do kinda like the idea of each knife being each makers own interpretation of the specs, but the other option would be to just get the raw billets from each maker and have one guy do the forging.
IMO, fully forged, integral bolsters are essential for the ultimate table knife.
Rader makes the best that I've seen and his prices are reasonable... Just sayin'...

Let's see how this develops. In the end, there might be a few style options and then I price them out. Or maybe different makers make different styles: long table, short table/condiment, and Oivind's curvy condiment spoon-knife. But I fully agree that having a complete damascus knife would be extremely cool.

As for Rader, I'm not sure he has much damascus lying around for this. I threw the idea past him last week.

k.

oivind_dahle
02-22-2012, 06:34 PM
I need these knives to be stainless.
Open for makers, as long as its stainless. However Devins damascus is my favorite.
if we can decide in mars what we end up with then we might have some really cool xmas presents for our selves this year :)

I will post my thoughts when I have them and send one to drinky and one to Justin.
However Im not sure about steel butter knives as it doesn't have the flex that wood have. THen again, the right maker will make some cool flex into the blade :)

oivind_dahle
02-29-2012, 05:19 PM
Got two knives today. Fount out they are bought here: http://hatthi.ocnk.net/product/180

They are really small, and felt uncomfortable in my hand. The curved blade got it cons and pros, however the use Ive had so far have made my impression more cons than pros. Ill try and take som pics during the weekend and write a review. However Mr Drinky: Can you PM me your data, so I can ship one to you?

So far of all my butterknives this is the winner:
http://images.staples-eu.com/App_Themes/no-NO/images/product/70843_1_xnl.jpg

Anyway Mr Drinky, Im sending both knives to you for your impression and to hunt down the forum butter knife :)

oivind_dahle
02-29-2012, 05:56 PM
I got to mention that my GF thinks Im an idiot willing to use a lot of dollars on handmade butterknives.
She googled and came up with that I was allowed to buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Debutant-Laguiole-Butter-Knives-France/dp/B006M1HCVG

Anyone got any experience?

Deckhand
02-29-2012, 06:30 PM
I got to mention that my GF thinks Im an idiot willing to use a lot of dollars on handmade butterknives.
She googled and came up with that I was allowed to buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Debutant-Laguiole-Butter-Knives-France/dp/B006M1HCVG

Anyone got any experience?

People buy things on amazon without five star ratings:bigeek:
Must be micro Damascus it was hard to see the patterning. I need Devin Thomas feather Damascus butter knives.

Candlejack
02-29-2012, 06:35 PM
I got to mention that my GF thinks Im an idiot willing to use a lot of dollars on handmade butterknives.
She googled and came up with that I was allowed to buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Debutant-Laguiole-Butter-Knives-France/dp/B006M1HCVG

Anyone got any experience?


Not with the butter-knives, but Lagioule is pretty well known.
More of a fancy-pants-drink-your-tea-with-your-pinkie-out kind of a knife, but nice indeed.

But i've only handled the one my Chef uses to open boxes with.

WildBoar
02-29-2012, 07:42 PM
I though Lagioule was similar to Sabatier -- many producers under the name, with a bit of variation in materials and quality?

Candlejack
02-29-2012, 07:44 PM
I though Lagioule was similar to Sabatier -- many producers under the name, with a bit of variation in materials and quality?

Might be completely true.. that i did not know.
The one i've had in my hand was built good. Although i wouldn't buy one.

Johnny.B.Good
02-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Might be completely true.. that i did not know.

"The word laguiole is a generic term, not legally restricted to any one company or place of manufacture. Such knives are produced by a number of unrelated companies in southern France, with some 70% of production coming from Thiers, a long-established centre of the cutlery industry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguiole_knife

tkern
02-29-2012, 08:31 PM
I have a set of Laguiole steak knives that definitely not "thee" Laguiole steak knives. They look like a stilletto and have the bee but thats about it.

mr drinky
02-29-2012, 08:36 PM
I got to mention that my GF thinks Im an idiot willing to use a lot of dollars on handmade butterknives.
She googled and came up with that I was allowed to buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Debutant-Laguiole-Butter-Knives-France/dp/B006M1HCVG

Anyone got any experience?

I have a very nice set of laguiole steak knives I love them. There are a handful of good producers out there, but the ones in that link look really cheaply made. I think those bolsters are hollow tin, and the craftsman ship looks pretty bad over all.

If you wanted a good set of Laguiole butter knives, it will still probably cost you a few hundred.

k.

mr drinky
03-01-2012, 01:12 AM
Btw, I was just trolling google image search and found this table set in Damascus. It is cheap damascus out of Pakistan and probably low quality, but the set gives some idea of what roughly things could look like. Imagine better damascus, better shape, and better handle. I think they would look pretty amazing.

k.

GLE1952
03-02-2012, 11:33 AM
I got to mention that my GF thinks Im an idiot willing to use a lot of dollars on handmade butterknives.
She googled and came up with that I was allowed to buy this: http://www.amazon.com/Debutant-Laguiole-Butter-Knives-France/dp/B006M1HCVG

Anyone got any experience?

Is it just me or do those "butter Knives" fold and have a sharpened edge?
Looks more like a portable bring your own steak knife, only no pointed tip.

Glen

GLE1952
03-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Couldn't edit my last post.
Apparently Lagioule folders and non folders have a pretty similar look.

olpappy
03-03-2012, 09:10 PM
This is a very nice idea, I have been thinking about something like this for a long time. A long time ago I purchased a blade which needed to be returned to the maker for service, by way of apology they included a "small table knife" which I was pleasantly surprised how useful it is. It looks like a butter knife but is sharp as heck, great for cutting steaks and any kind of food at the table. Here is a picture of it:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/kkf007.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/kkf006.jpg

I would like to see something like this, not just a butter knife but sharp and useful as a steak/table knife as well.

Over time I have collected photos of knives which I like or can be inspiration for projects, I will share some pics of various handles which are similar to this style of knife:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/8F_12_B.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/B6_12_B.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/19_12_SB.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/knife3650alt2.jpg


Note that judicious use of some SIMPLE shaping/filework can make a handle quite elegant without getting overly complicated.

I did some cutting and pasting, hopefully some of these pics will inspire others here as well.

Obviously real ivory or MOP would be expensive, IMHO synthetic substitutes for these would be esthetically acceptable as well as environmentally friendly.

Personally my favorite is ladder pattern damascus, but it would have to be stainless.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS01.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS02.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS03.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS04.jpg

Johnny.B.Good
03-03-2012, 10:27 PM
Of all the pictures you have posted Pappy, my favorite blade/handle combination is the one you actually own. (If I could order six of those right now, I would.)

Pretty nice "apology," however it would have cost me some money (after I ordered another 5-7 to match). ;)

Do you know what type of steel it is made out of?

Crothcipt
03-03-2012, 10:59 PM
man I have to quit looking at this thread. love that oops gift. have to agree with johnny prob the best butter knife on the thread, but there are others that I drool over too.

dragonlord
03-04-2012, 05:13 AM
If you are considering ivory, take into account that it is illegal to buy, sell, or otherwise trade it in the EU unless you have a special permit ( which are very hard to come by)

olpappy
03-04-2012, 06:11 AM
Of all the pictures you have posted Pappy, my favorite blade/handle combination is the one you actually own. (If I could order six of those right now, I would.)

Pretty nice "apology," however it would have cost me some money (after I ordered another 5-7 to match). ;)

Do you know what type of steel it is made out of?

It is carbon steel, not sure what kind. Blade length: 5.5" Handle + ferrule: 5"

Damasteel has a nice selection of stainless damascus

http://www.ssdamascus.com/Products.html

mr drinky
03-04-2012, 09:55 AM
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/kkf007.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/kkf006.jpg

I would like to see something like this, not just a butter knife but sharp and useful as a steak/table knife as well.

This is pretty much exactly what I am aiming at. I have a really nice set of steak knives, but I find that I don't use them unless I really need them. Most of my proteins are cooked tender enough and cut in a way that bringing out steak knives isn't really worth it. So in the end I use table knives more, so an upgraded table/butter knife with an edge yet had the rounded tip to serve other purposes appeals to me.

Several months ago, i bough some junk vintage butter knives and put an edge on one side and tried sanding the handles. It got nice and sharp, but the metal wasn't meant for such purpose and with all the oil in the handle, I burned through quite a bit of sandpaper.

Thanks for posting. I too like the 'apology' knife and even your other pics got me thinking about incorporating horn into the handle. I have a horn wine opener that is pretty sexy.

k.

Edit: Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of damasteel either. I guess I have been thinking of a 'forum set' with different makers of Damascus. But in the end, it may be that price prohibits that and going with one maker using different types of damascus steel is more affordable with options for plain steel. But Pierre does work with damy so that might be an interesting route depending upon price. I thought damasteel was still pretty spendy though. I could be wrong.

Johnny.B.Good
03-04-2012, 12:52 PM
It is carbon steel, not sure what kind. Blade length: 5.5" Handle + ferrule: 5"

Thanks Pappy.

Can you identify the handle materials? (Hard to tell from the photos, not that they're not good!)

I even like the plain carbon look.

Have you sharpened it?

olpappy
03-04-2012, 03:16 PM
Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of damasteel either. I guess I have been thinking of a 'forum set' with different makers of Damascus. But in the end, it may be that price prohibits that and going with one maker using different types of damascus steel is more affordable with options for plain steel. But Pierre does work with damy so that might be an interesting route depending upon price. I thought damasteel was still pretty spendy though. I could be wrong.

Yeah, Damasteel is expensive, but AFAIK all stainless damascus is.....

How many different knives would consider for a "set?" 4? 6?

Regarding doing this project at a reasonable cost, Ed VanHoy and his wife do custom work using stainless damascus from various makers including Devin Thomas, and they sound like just the ticket for a project like this:

"We specialize in one of a kind or limited edition runs and sets of the highest quality knives made to our customers design. We are only limited by the customer's imagination and their choices of materials."

Their web site is here: http://www.stamascusknifeworks.com/About_Us.html

They have access to a wide variety of stainless damascus from different makers and since they make the knives, they can easily make a set of similar style knives which will be esthetically consistent. Also with various handle materials.

We should try to agree on a design and figure out how many knives would be involved in the order before we contact them.

Actually my concern with stainless damascus is that in many cases for some reason the stainless damascus doesn't look the same as carbon damascus, the contrast between light and dark is more often sharp and clear, whereas with carbon damascus there is some shading between the areas where the etching fades in. Like having your printer set to gray scale vs. black/white, or the tattoo artists on "Ink Master" having to do black and gray shading. I want a stainless that has the same look as carbon damascus, if possible. Devin's spoons achieve this look successfully, but some of the fancier patterns are more black/white looking.

The handle on that table knife is buffalo horn. I was thinking what about a set with the same damascus eg. random damascus or ladder damascus, and all different handle materials? That would also be another option which would lower the end cost.

I suppose there might be 2 groups of customers, some which want different damascus blades, some which might like same pattern for blades with just different handles?

olpappy
03-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Have you sharpened it?

The edge is zero convex, like a very thin version of a BRKT. I have sharpened it on a sandpaper strop, but for this project since most of us use stones I would prefer a beveled edge that can be sharpened on stones.

If you are interested BRKT has a line of kitchen knives with convex edges. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/176/

olpappy
03-04-2012, 03:58 PM
Regarding doing this project at a reasonable cost, Ed VanHoy and his wife do custom work using stainless damascus from various makers including Devin Thomas, and they sound like just the ticket for a project like this:

"We specialize in one of a kind or limited edition runs and sets of the highest quality knives made to our customers design. We are only limited by the customer's imagination and their choices of materials."

Their web site is here: http://www.stamascusknifeworks.com/About_Us.html



Hmmm their prices used to be very reasonable, however I checked the knives on their site and seems like things are quite pricey now!

Thus far for choices of damascus steel we have Devin Thomas, Pierre Rodrigue, Damasteel, any other makers of stainless damascus?

oivind_dahle
03-04-2012, 04:42 PM
How much are you guys planning to spend on this?
I have to ask, cause Im really broke atm :(
I need to plan this.

Drinky, sending you knives tomorrow. I was gone all weekend :)

olpappy
03-05-2012, 01:00 AM
I am also on a budget, I'm sure everyone is worried that a set of 4-6 knives would end up being expensive. The advantage of doing a group buy on this is that the knifemaker doesn't care if it's one guy ordering ten knives or 10 guys ordering one knife each. Some of us might not be able to afford a set, but I'd be happy to even have one or two if these knives turn out as awesome as I think they will.

There's no reason why a non-damascus version of the knife with exotic handle materials could not also be made by the same maker, who ever it ends up being. That might be less outrageous for people afford as a set.

A lot of people might even want some of each type (damascus and not). I probably would get both if I could.

I think the first step is to thoroughly explore sources of stainless damascus, there really are not a lot of people who make it. There are only a few, and AFAIK none of them is inexpensive. Actually the least expensive form of stainless damascus is the san-mai VG-10 from Japan, but that only seems to come in a random pattern. Shun Kramer line has what they call "waterfall" which is really a ladder pattern.


price per inch 1/8 x 1-1/4"


Devin Thomas

all stainless ladder 12.00 per inch x 5 inches = $60 material

Firestorm ???

Feather pattern ???



Damasteel

20 turn twist 13.50 per inch x 5 inches = 67.50

Rose Pattern 15.00 per inch x 5 = $75


The standard dimensions of the steel is bigger than a typical butter knife, actually. 1/8" is thicker than a table/butter knife. My table knife is 3/4" from spine to edge, which means 40% of the 1.25" billet would be discarded. If we want to make the best use of the damascus materials, a blade shape which will require less removal of steel would be nice. It could still be a table knife, but perhaps a wider blade, it would work better for spreads than a standard butter knife.

Also having an integral forged bolster would increase the cost because each would require forging to shape rather than using their standard billets. I have a feeling doing a feather pattern would also be prohibitively expensive for some because each would have to be custom forged to the shape of the knife rather than using standard billets. There are going to be some people who can afford more expensive patterns or features, and some people who can't. We need to make the design of the knives flexible enough that it can be produced as both high-end and not-so-high end versions, the difference in cost being materials used, not features of the knife which require custom forging on each piece.


Here's more inspiration:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS05.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS06.jpg

mr drinky
03-05-2012, 01:28 AM
I've been traveling today so just seeing the latest posts. Thanks for the info olpappy. I agree that keeping the cost down should be a concern, but as you said, it doesn't stop a person from ordering 1 or 2. And maybe there are some options that allow for cheaper versions (plain stainless vs. damascus), handle material etc.

As for steel and those crafting the knives, I am a firm believer in working with the makers on this forum, especially the ones that also make damascus and could provide those options. Devin is obviously a top choice, but there is also Randy, Del, Will, Pierre, Rader, B. Burke and others too -- but I am sure some of them would not be interested. I know Randy would be up for it (he's crazy ;)), and it would surprise me if Del wouldn't be up for it. In the summer I mentioned this briefly when talking to Devin, but it was just an idea that I never followed through with, but he seemed open to it then.

I think once we come up with exact specs (maybe a couple designs), we can ask for quotes from those makers interested and see what the price might be and options. Then we can see how many might be in for one or more.

k.

oivind_dahle
03-05-2012, 11:26 AM
What would be the price on that feather damscus with black handles?
this one that is: http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS06.jpg

Johnny.B.Good
03-05-2012, 01:39 PM
What would be the price on that feather damscus with black handles?
this one that is: http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/PS06.jpg

I would like to know the answer to this as well, though I'm not sure how to go about finding out.

This project is getting more interesting by the day. I really like the design of Pappy's table knife (which I am not sure would work well as a butter knife without being chopped down in size, but no matter), and simple black handles of some sort (horn or wood) are my favorite. The feather pattern is beautiful, but I wouldn't mind a more simple steel either (even plain, like Pappy's).

The only problem I would have with having a knife like this is that I would want forks and spoons to match!

oivind_dahle
03-05-2012, 04:27 PM
Can anybody call Hoss and ask for price on these knives?
Feather damascus feather with black handles would be awesome!

Johnny.B.Good
03-05-2012, 04:34 PM
Feather damascus feather with black handles would be awesome!

You can say that again.

oivind_dahle
03-05-2012, 04:37 PM
hehe :)
When I get excited I spell words wrong and also repite them :)

Crothcipt
03-05-2012, 06:41 PM
Just thinking about how that knife is cut with the line down the center, and having the fork cut out right next to it so the pattern is still flowing up and the spoon on the other side. WOW!! (I hope that makes sense.)

mr drinky
03-05-2012, 07:21 PM
I'll try to set up a time to call him this week.

I just received one set of knives in the mail today. The specs on them were:

blade length: 135mm
blade height: 21-22 mm
handle length: 90-100 mm

The length seems pretty good to me, but the handle at 90 mm is too short. I actually think 100-110 would be better. Maybe 105mm.

Obviously cost will depend upon handle design too. A simple bolsterless handle would keep cost down.

One thing I am unsure of with the feather pattern if it will be the most costly. It looks great, but might it be possible to cut more than one blade from a billet since the knives are thin enough, but with the feather pattern, it seems you would need the 'center cut'. Just thinking out loud.

k.

mr drinky
03-06-2012, 05:05 PM
I just talked with Hoss about this a bit, and he said that he would love to work on the project, but he doesn't have a rough unit price yet as it depends upon how many knives we are talking about, integral bolster or not, type of wood, dimensions etc.

He openly admitted that he would probably not be the cheapest one to do it, but he also said he would work with us to keep the cost reasonable enough especially if more people want to buy some.

Here are some issues up for discussion:

* Dimensions: Handle, Blade (I posted some above but maybe olpappy can measure his 'freebie' knife to throw that in the mix).
* Wood: Devin mentioned blackwood and cocobolo. Maybe we could decide on a few different options.
* Bolster: No bolster, integral, pinned? Integrals will take more work and cost a bit more. I personally am fine with no bolster.
* Handle: Full tang, narrow hidden tang, or wa if anyone in interested in that. Pins? (yes, no, number).
* Damascus Patterns. Maybe we choose four patterns -- or if someone wants a six-knife set, six patterns.

Anyhow, food for thought. Give your preferences now or forever hold your peace. Even if no one wants any, I am still getting my one-off set :) Once we have these details I can get a price from Devin, and at that point the number of takers may determine the ultimate discount he is willing to give.

As for me, I will probably just get a set of 4 knives.

k.

oivind_dahle
03-06-2012, 05:08 PM
Im in one way or the other....

Crothcipt
03-06-2012, 07:38 PM
I am on the fence atm. I love to do this, but its kinda getting to a little crunch time. Have to save funds for my nieces hs graduation in may. If it gets over 100-150 I would be out. I know more people in would make this cheaper. I don't want this to be a gorgan knot problem either.

DeepCSweede
03-06-2012, 08:19 PM
I don't want this to be a gorgan knot problem either.

Yes, but Alexander solved that problem with a knife :knife:
Okay - it was a sword, but it still solved it. :scratchhead:

Can't wait to see the final product.

olpappy
03-07-2012, 05:16 AM
Here is a sketch similar to the knife I have, I have kept the length the same (blade 5.5", handle 5" OAL 263mm) but made the blade wider to be closer to the dimensions of the steel billet. It has a ferrule which could be made of 302 stainless ( the original is brass). Regarding the handle width, I have taken measurements of several butter knives and the handles are 4mm, 6mm, up to 8.5mm at most. A handle which is not thick enough will be very difficult to drill for the tang, so maybe a slightly thick handle would be needed.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/scan0001a.jpg

Hi Mr Drinky, I tried sending you PM but it said your box is full.

Here are the measurements of the original, it is rather slim from spine to edge, but if the standard billet is used that would mean grinding away about 40% of the steel. I made a sketch for a knife similar to the one I have, all the same curves except I just made the blade wider to make it closer to the size of a 1-1/4" damascus billet.

Blade, tip to heal: 136mm
Blade, tip to bolster: 138mm (the heal rounds up to the bolster)
Handle Length: 124mm (3mm bolster+121mm handle)
Width: 18mm at heel to 12 mm at tip
Blade thickness at heel: 1.9mm
Blade thickness at midpoint: 1.8mm
Blade thickness at tip: 0.8mm

My favorites for 4 damascus patterns are:

Devin ladder
Devin Firestorm
Damasteel 20 turn twist
Damasteel Rose

Handles: Cocobolo, blackwood, faux MOP, faux ivory (or fossil)

I have different kinds of wood sitting around, what if the customers provide handle material?? I know Stefan has plenty of materials, ha ha.

olpappy
03-07-2012, 05:42 AM
Sorry somehow I screwed up editing my post too many times.

Here's the pic: (right click and select "open image" to view full screen)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/scan0001a.jpg

Oh yeah, I thought of an easy way to option a 4 piece set into a 6 piece set, 4 damascus knives plus 2 monosteel knives, one in satin finished 154CM and one in AE-BL etched black to match the damascus ones.

Or, say you wanted a 4 pc set but cost was an issue, you could get 2 damascus and 2 monosteel knives. Or any combination of the above, eg. all 4 in monosteel.

If it were me I'd want different handle material on each knife also. I think it'd be boring if everybody had the same handle materials, I don't know if Devin would consider it a pain in the butt if for example I wanted a unique material like synthetic ivory or faux MOP, rather than him having to source all the materials for all the knives, what if I send him a piece of mammoth ivory or koa or whatever etc...

mr drinky
03-30-2012, 01:05 AM
Sorry somehow I screwed up editing my post too many times.

Here's the pic: (right click and select "open image" to view full screen)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/josferi/kitchen/scan0001a.jpg

Oh yeah, I thought of an easy way to option a 4 piece set into a 6 piece set, 4 damascus knives plus 2 monosteel knives, one in satin finished 154CM and one in AE-BL etched black to match the damascus ones.

Or, say you wanted a 4 pc set but cost was an issue, you could get 2 damascus and 2 monosteel knives. Or any combination of the above, eg. all 4 in monosteel.

If it were me I'd want different handle material on each knife also. I think it'd be boring if everybody had the same handle materials, I don't know if Devin would consider it a pain in the butt if for example I wanted a unique material like synthetic ivory or faux MOP, rather than him having to source all the materials for all the knives, what if I send him a piece of mammoth ivory or koa or whatever etc...

Ok, I am bumping this thread.

Last call for those interested. There was a lot of interest, but I want to move this along. I think there was a lot of good input, but not enough firm interest for Devin to work with larger numbers/discounts.

If you are interested in getting 2, 4, or 6 knives please PM me along with any preferential specs (wood type, tang, pins, steel etc.) We can finish th rest via PM. Otherwise, I am going to order a one-off set of four with four different woods, different damascus patterns, full tang, and with two pins.

I like olpappy's idea of the monosteel. If there is enough interest I will raise it with Devin, but if not, then I am going with straight Devin damascus.

Last call.

k.

Crothcipt
03-30-2012, 01:31 AM
I was just thinking about this today, and was gonna post a question. Well I forgot about it so now I don't have to.