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View Full Version : VG-10 vs__?



bechler
03-09-2012, 10:45 AM
I am looking to get a new gyuto, possibly the Hattori FH, and am noticing that most are made from VG-10 steel. I have read that this steel is becoming a little out dated. Are there better stainless options out there and if so what are they? Thank you.

Andrew H
03-09-2012, 10:48 AM
AEB-L would be a good one.

bechler
03-09-2012, 10:48 AM
Great. Do you know of a specific knife that has it so I can check it out?

Lefty
03-09-2012, 10:51 AM
DT, Marko, Adam Marr...I can't think of any production knives out of it, other than the ITK. I'm guessing some are out there, somewhere.

Andrew H
03-09-2012, 10:56 AM
The Devin Thomas ITK knives use it, so does Marko. Another SS steel similar is the Suisin Inox Honyaki line which uses 19c27 I believe.

Many of the good SS knives out there don't say what steel they use. You would be happy going with a Konosuke HD or Gesshin Ginga.

Pensacola Tiger
03-09-2012, 10:56 AM
Great. Do you know of a specific knife that has it so I can check it out?

It's not so much the steel, but the heat treatment and grind. Just because a knife is made from AEB-L, it does not follow that it is a great knife.

Also, a steel does not become "dated". It may be superceded by the latest "flavor of the month", but it doesn't mean that it isn't any good.

But, to answer your question, Devin Thomas does some great work with AEB-L:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89770

Rick

99Limited
03-09-2012, 11:04 AM
+1 to what he said

If the DT knife is within your budget, buy it. You'll never need another gyuto for the rest of your life.

Lefty
03-09-2012, 11:11 AM
What Andrew and Rick just posted is bang on. I have "sampled" many SS knives and loved some, hated some others. In fact, two stainless knives of mine get absolutely wickedly sharp, and one even holds it for quite some time. However, one of the knives I just mentioned is made from a steel that I've tried in another knife and wasn't at all impressed with. HT is far more important. With that being said, geometry and overall cutting performance outweighs both steel and HT, in my mind.
And to mess you up even more, VG10 feels dead to me and I wouldn't get a knife made from it, but it's still leaps and bounds better than most stainless steels out there. It's a much better steel than we let on, but often the knives that use it are chippier or just don't take quite as keen of an edge as some other knives we all love.

DanB
03-09-2012, 12:41 PM
It's not so much the steel, but the heat treatment and grind. Just because a knife is made from AEB-L, it does not follow that it is a great knife.

Also, a steel does not become "dated". It may be superceded by the latest "flavor of the month", but it doesn't mean that it isn't any good.

But, to answer your question, Devin Thomas does some great work with AEB-L:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89770

Rick

Have any of you guys played with the Artifex? It's also AEB-L, and alot cheaper.

Lefty
03-09-2012, 12:43 PM
See above comment :D
They could be very good, but who knows until someone tries one out.

Eamon Burke
03-09-2012, 01:25 PM
My old Tojiro dp is vg10 and it takes a piss ripper of an edge. But it is chippy as heck, doesnt polish up smooth (if you want to), and gets dull after 2 days at work. refreshes kinda poorly too.

The Artifex is actually ground about as good as my tojiro(that is to say, ok), and takes a really great edge...and holds it. It survived a WEEK at work and you can still hit the honing rod and shave your arm. it is ugly and narrow, but it really performs. Add that to it being made here instead of Japan(they make enough knives), it is my new go to suggestion for a cheapo knife with no qualities beyond steel characteristics (I.E. The Tojiro spot).

Mark and Lamson hit paydirt with that one, as far as making a proper beater, but I wouldn't call it a great knife.

I would stay away from vg10, it's just not great. There is much better steel for the money of an FH.

:2cents:

Lefty
03-09-2012, 01:32 PM
Eamon, I'm glad someone with some, clout, for lack of a better word has tried the Artifex out. I'm also glad to read that it is exactly what it's billed to be. In my experience with that particular vendor, I've had only positives. I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt until I'm given reason not to.
Back to the knife in question: you'd bill it as the new Tojiro DP, basically? That says quite a bit for me.

El Pescador
03-09-2012, 03:13 PM
I am looking to get a new gyuto, possibly the Hattori FH, and am noticing that most are made from VG-10 steel. I have read that this steel is becoming a little out dated. Are there better stainless options out there and if so what are they? Thank you.

I dont think people have any issues with the VG-10 in this knife. It has a much better feel compared to other VG-10 I've tried and have comfirmed this with others. The issue with the FH is geometry. People either like more belly/curve or don't.

Dave Martell
03-09-2012, 04:13 PM
Yeah I'd have to agree with Mr. Pesky here and say that VG-10 is OK in the FHs, in fact I feel it's different (somehow) than what we see in the HDs, at least I know it sharpens differently and they don't come in for chipped edge repair like the HDs do.

I'm not saying that you can't do better just that the Hattori FH won't present a problem and should be a good knife.

stevenStefano
03-09-2012, 05:58 PM
I always feel like I am swimming against the tide in my FH love but I have thinned mine heavily and I love the thing. I think there is a very good chance that the reason why I love it so much is that it is the only knife I have with a convex left side, so the food release it has is tremendous compared to every other knife I have which are righty-orientated, and me being a lefty. The profile is also great, I am not a fan of very flat profiles. As Dave also says, the VG10 it has is a bit better than others I have tried.

Despite that though, I'd probably go with a Konosuke HD. While the Konosuke is semi-stainless, it is stainless enough for it to be suitable for someone who is new to knives if that makes sense

Eamon Burke
03-09-2012, 06:11 PM
I wonder what it is that creates such chip-prone behavior in VG10? Is it because of the larger carbide size, or is it just not a very ductile steel at the hardness we use it at?

Dave Martell
03-09-2012, 07:44 PM
I wonder what it is that creates such chip-prone behavior in VG10? Is it because of the larger carbide size, or is it just not a very ductile steel at the hardness we use it at?


I'm not sure if it's VG10 or more specifically the Hattori HD's that are the issue. I've seen a whole slew of OTB HD's chipped to hell but can't recall another knife even remotely close to the same problem. I wonder if because so many people have had chipped HD's that the general consensus has become that of VG10 being the issue.

tk59
03-09-2012, 07:44 PM
I think the hardness is the problem 60 hrc is pretty close to as hard as this stuff can handle, iirc. What it is about the comp, I don't know. Tojiros are pretty chippy, too compared to other steels.

deanb
03-09-2012, 08:08 PM
I've had a Hattori FH 270 mm gyuto for a couple years now and I love it. I bought it to be a workhorse and it sure has been. I thinned the edge quite a bit but I've never had any problem with chipping and I do a lot (for a home cook) of chopping veggies. It takes a very good edge and holds it very well. I have gyutos with more and less belly than the FH so I don't really need an all purpose gyuto but if I did the FH would be a good candidate. The fit and finish is superb. All in all, I think it's a very good knife at this price point.

sel1k1
03-09-2012, 11:36 PM
For VG10 I like Shigeki Tanaka. That's pretty much it. I don't like the idea of spending more money on it. The knives are a great value. Very thin regarding gyuto and santoku. A good alternative depends on the price. VG-10 has a very big price/quality range. Fujiwara has a stainless although I havn't used it, I have their carbon knives. SG2 could be an alternative, Swedish AEB-L, Akifusa has a PM srs-15 steel they use. It is very hard, everyone that I know with one or that has had one says it chipped. People have dropped them at work leaving huge chips and broken tips. On a side note I have seen a Kikuichi(plane looking one from JBPrince) dropped from waist height on the floor, like directly on the blade making contact with the ground with no chipping or noticeable damage to the knife. Yoshikane uses a semi-stainless you could look at.

jmforge
03-09-2012, 11:49 PM
If you wanted to talk about a stainless steel that is "dated" then AEB-L is the one. It is the oldest of the stainless razor steels. It was first patented in 1928. Ditto for other popular kitchen knife steels. IIRC, 52100 was being made in both the US and Germany before WW2.

sel1k1
03-10-2012, 12:10 AM
I am looking to get a new gyuto, possibly the Hattori FH, and am noticing that most are made from VG-10 steel. I have read that this steel is becoming a little out dated. Are there better stainless options out there and if so what are they? Thank you.

Curious as to where you read that it is outdated.

slowtyper
03-10-2012, 01:35 AM
Curious as to where you read that it is outdated.

Probably meant its "out of fashion".

Ontravelling
03-10-2012, 04:10 AM
FWIW My wife has been using an FH Gyuto in a professional kitchen for close to a year now. I'm the one who usually sharpens it and I cannot remember it having any chips so far. She can be pretty rough on them too (seen her filet salmon with it before she had a deba). When not using it to filet fish, the edge lasts a week in the kitchen no problem. They're nice knives in my opinion. Now, I wouldn't buy one of those VG10 Masanobus from Korin for $400 anytime soon (ever) but I dig the FH.

Citizen Snips
03-10-2012, 10:14 AM
for AEB-L i loved my sakai takayuki grand cheff

i dont care for vg10

i do very much like the quality of the konosuke HD steel

i also very much like the suisin inox steel