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View Full Version : What size pin stock for Tojiro ITK rehandle?



TB_London
03-13-2012, 11:03 AM
Hi all,

Am going to rehandle my Tojiro ITK 270mm bread knife, but before i take the scales off does anyone know what size the pin holes in the tang are? That way i can buy some in so i don't have to use it without a handle whilst i wait for some to pin stock to arrive.

Cheers,
Tom

kalaeb
03-13-2012, 12:41 PM
I usually use 1/4 inch corbys. The required tang hole is about 3/16. I have to bore out the tang holes just a litte to make it fit.

Dave Martell
03-13-2012, 01:10 PM
You likely have rivets holding the scales on now which if so have very slim shafts running through the tang (maybe 2-3mm wide?). So unless you can find pinstock this narrow (and you won;t know how narrow the holes are until you remove the scales) you'll find that you'll likely have to drill out the holes so you might as well plan for that by selecting the pins that you want and purchasing a corresponding drill bit ahead of time. I'd recommend slightly oversizing the holes in the tang to allow for some wiggle room for you in fit up. If you have a drill press you might be best served with a carbide tipped drill bit since the tang may be hardened a bit (sometimes the front hole section is very hard).

Good luck!

TB_London
03-13-2012, 01:30 PM
Cheers for the responses, yeah pretty sure they're cutlery rivets. I have some cobalt drills but these have struggled with enlarging the holes on other tangs, shall take a look for carbide drills sound to be more useful. Sounds like it's a case of cut them off and see what i find :D

Cheers,
Tom

SpikeC
03-13-2012, 05:24 PM
For a temporary handle, Duck Tape!!

ThEoRy
03-13-2012, 09:09 PM
Keep us posted on this with maybe some progress reports. I'd like to take a crack at this soon myself.

TB_London
03-13-2012, 09:34 PM
Will do, going to take the handle off tomorrow so will take some pics of what lies beneath the scales

SameGuy
03-14-2012, 01:55 AM
Do people rehandle yos to was? Is it fairly easy to grind the tang to the length required for use in mounting a custom wa handle? I assume balance goes way off, but for the ITK bread knife than might be less of a concern.

Dave Martell
03-14-2012, 02:20 AM
Do people rehandle yos to was? Is it fairly easy to grind the tang to the length required for use in mounting a custom wa handle? I assume balance goes way off, but for the ITK bread knife than might be less of a concern.

For a bolsterless knife like this one it's pretty easy to grind the tang down for a wa handle. It's much more complicated doing this conversion on a bolstered knife since you have to grind the bolster off and re-surface the knife too.

SpikeC
03-14-2012, 03:11 PM
Why not just reshape the bolster to match the front of the Wa handle?

Taz575
03-14-2012, 03:19 PM
Ugh, I hate bolsters of metal! Especially ones that are already on the knife, can't change much w/o serious grinding.

This is a Tojiro Honesuki (DP maybe??) that I redid with red micarta. I have been using 1/8" pin stock for most handles lately, I finally got a #30 drill bit and love how the pin slides right into the hole w/o having to ream the hole or sand the pin down. I haven't looked up the right pin for 3/16" or 1/4" pins yet, but one of these days I will!

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Honesuki2.jpg

If I do the 1/8" pin in an oversized hole, I groove the pin to hold epoxy and make sure the hole is completely filled with epoxy (JB Quik Weld). I will drill the handle material so that the pin is right at the back of the hole closest to the blade and at the front of the pin hole closest to the butt of the handle. This way the handle can't slide back and forth much at all, makes it easier to align. I have carbide bits, but my drill press isn't very tight and precise, so I haven't used them yet.

I agree the bolts are stronger, but I've never had any problems with the pins and epoxy coming off. I tried to redo some of my older knife handles with the quik weld and pins and the handle materials were splitting before the epoxy was letting go. I would take another knife blank with a thin tip, and hammer it into the gap between the handle and tang to split them.

Deckhand
03-14-2012, 03:37 PM
Why not just reshape the bolster to match the front of the Wa handle?

I like how you think, and it would look cool. It seems that unless the bolster was very large this wouldn't work. Unless you made a very skinny wa handle. I thought about having Dave modify some of my knives to wa from western.

jmforge
03-14-2012, 06:25 PM
Yeah, that weld would make fitting the scales interesting.
Ugh, I hate bolsters of metal! Especially ones that are already on the knife, can't change much w/o serious grinding.

This is a Tojiro Honesuki (DP maybe??) that I redid with red micarta. I have been using 1/8" pin stock for most handles lately, I finally got a #30 drill bit and love how the pin slides right into the hole w/o having to ream the hole or sand the pin down. I haven't looked up the right pin for 3/16" or 1/4" pins yet, but one of these days I will!

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh102/Taz575/Honesuki2.jpg

If I do the 1/8" pin in an oversized hole, I groove the pin to hold epoxy and make sure the hole is completely filled with epoxy (JB Quik Weld). I will drill the handle material so that the pin is right at the back of the hole closest to the blade and at the front of the pin hole closest to the butt of the handle. This way the handle can't slide back and forth much at all, makes it easier to align. I have carbide bits, but my drill press isn't very tight and precise, so I haven't used them yet.

I agree the bolts are stronger, but I've never had any problems with the pins and epoxy coming off. I tried to redo some of my older knife handles with the quik weld and pins and the handle materials were splitting before the epoxy was letting go. I would take another knife blank with a thin tip, and hammer it into the gap between the handle and tang to split them.

Taz575
03-14-2012, 07:41 PM
The weld wasn't too bad. I busted out the Dremel and ground away a gap for the weld. The original handles had a gap milled already in the handle. On the Kikuichi Carbon Elite I redid, the bolsters were hollow, which was pretty cool!

TB_London
03-15-2012, 09:22 AM
Any pics of how the honesuki came out?

Taz575
03-15-2012, 09:35 AM
LOL, no, I didn't take the after pics. I will see if I can get some today maybe. It came out OK; I used my buffing wheel to polish the bolster and blade up a bit just to see how it would work. It did much better than I thought it would, but there are some deeper scratches I need to remove and I over sanded the handle at one point, so it's a bit below the bolster. I rarely use the knife, so the stuff like that doesn't bother me. I mainly wanted to see what the red Micarta looks like when buffed out compared to the Maroon.

TB_London
03-15-2012, 07:08 PM
So, drilled the rivets out and good news was the handle wasn't glued on at all, so once the rivets were out the scales came clean off.
Pin holes are 4mm with slots at the top and bottom and a hole in the middle. I have 4mm stainless rod already so just need to work out which wood to use. From the pictures which do people think would be best, I'm thinking the Chestnut burl...

Pics:
Drilling the rivets:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Photo%2015-03-2012%2020%2053%2008.jpg
Tang:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Photo%2015-03-2012%2021%2026%2035.jpg
Choice of woods:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Photo%2015-03-2012%2021%2030%2032.jpg
Close up-chestnut left, Black Ash right
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Photo%2015-03-2012%2021%2030%2043.jpg
Left to Right-Desert Ironwood, Ringed Gidgee, Maple burr
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Photo%2015-03-2012%2021%2030%2049.jpg

The Edge
03-15-2012, 08:28 PM
My vote would be for the Black Ash. I think it would go well with the serrations.

quantumcloud509
03-15-2012, 09:24 PM
My vote for the desert iron wood. I think it fits the knife better, and if I had you rehandle my ITK into WA, thats the one Id ask for... *hint, hint* :biggrin:

Taz575
03-15-2012, 10:21 PM
I would say Ironwood or Ringed Gidgee. The others looks too nice for a more plain blade. When you get a blade for the other wood handles, you will know. Sometimes the blade/blank speaks to you :)

kalaeb
03-15-2012, 11:38 PM
That is some wicked looking black ash. Have fun.

Johnny.B.Good
03-16-2012, 03:10 AM
Ironwood, Maple, Black Ash...in that order.

Good luck! Post pics when you're finished.

Eamon Burke
03-16-2012, 03:21 AM
That is a mighty fine piece of ash you got there, bit my vote is for the gidgee.

TB_London
04-23-2012, 07:23 PM
Managed to get a bit done on this tonight, had problems getting hold of the right sized drill to countersink for the cutlers rivets, will post up pics tomorrow.

SpikeC
04-23-2012, 07:39 PM
The counter sink is the tricky part with cutlers rivets. I finally broke down and bought a dedicated tool for it.

RobinW
04-23-2012, 08:34 PM
Nice WIP.

Thinking about doing the same to my ITK bread.

TB_London
04-24-2012, 05:07 AM
Aaaaah, where the belt finish from the blade extends to the tang, it's slightly rounded and no longer flat. This explains the gaps I had on the stock handle, and the F+F issues people noted in another thread. Guess I'll just use a bit of glue and sawdust to seal it.
Is this where a slightly compressible liner would even it out?

Taz575
04-24-2012, 09:38 AM
A liner may work, or use some JB Quik Weld (it dries a dark grey, thick stuff, not runny) to fill in the gap there. Of you are going to use an epoxy and sawdust, let it start to set up a bit before you use it so it's not as runny, depending on the type of epoxy you are using. Some can be runny, others can be nice and thick to fill the gap.

chefwatson
04-25-2012, 08:26 PM
I would like to preface this by saying, I am not trying to hijack the thread and I hope that it is ok to post these here. I am by no means trying to drum up business or anything of the sort. I just thought others would like to see what is, at least, possible

I have never worked with wood or metal before but when I first received my Tojiro ITK bread knife, the first thing I thought was that it needed new scales.

I don't have any before and after photos... just the after. I am sure enough people here have seen the knife to know what it looks like stock. I purchased some black and white ivory from Mark @ Burl Source and bought a rod of mosaic pin off of eBay.


http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4821/1335389506417.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7113/1335389552866.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5741/1335389569703.jpg
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2615/1335389615635.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2343/1335389491825.jpg

Please be gentle with me, like I said I have never even considered attempting something like this before. I know some don't like the mosaic pin look but I thought with this color wood, it would bring everything out more. Critiques and questions are welcomed. I know better photos can be taken as well.

Deckhand
04-25-2012, 08:30 PM
I really like it. Great job.

heirkb
04-25-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm not crazy about the number of pins, but if you are, then it doesn't matter. :)

Great job.

Edit: Just wanted to ask everyone here...would it be nuts to do a wa conversion on a small bolster-less handle with only a dremel?

SameGuy
04-25-2012, 09:48 PM
LOL, I've been thinking the same thing for quite some time! I do have a bit more than a Dremel here, but I have never used any of it for fine rework, just basic cutting, grinding and mechanical work.

SpikeC
04-25-2012, 09:58 PM
It looks well executed, but I would use fewer pins. 3 is about right, 5 is just too busy. I would thin the scales down at the front as well.

SpikeC
04-25-2012, 10:00 PM
You would probably burn up the Dremel. So yes, it would be crazy, butt if you have a lot of time on your hands, what the heck!

I'm not crazy about the number of pins, but if you are, then it doesn't matter. :)

Great job.

Edit: Just wanted to ask everyone here...would it be nuts to do a wa conversion on a small bolster-less handle with only a dremel?

heirkb
04-25-2012, 10:51 PM
You would probably burn up the Dremel. So yes, it would be crazy, butt if you have a lot of time on your hands, what the heck!

What do you mean by burn up? As in burn through the sanding drums? I might end up recruiting someone to help me out on this one.

SpikeC
04-25-2012, 11:13 PM
I mean burn up the motor. They are not stout enough for hard work. The motor is too small.

GlassEye
04-25-2012, 11:33 PM
What do you mean by burn up? As in burn through the sanding drums? I might end up recruiting someone to help me out on this one.

I would use cutting wheels and work slowly, the dremel should be alright if you don't put too much strain on it. I have done a lot cutting with mine on steel and other metals, machining engine blocks, etc. with no issues, I have never cut hardened knife steel though.

SameGuy
04-25-2012, 11:56 PM
That's what I mean. I use mine on chassis bolts and other ho-hum garage work. Cutting wheels are a dime a dozen. Even carbide bits are pretty cheap. I also have air die grinders as well as typical auto garage bench grinders. The hard part isn't using what I have to cut steel; it's using what I have to cut steel accurately.

Eamon Burke
04-26-2012, 02:25 AM
Dremel cutoff bits get about 2 inches into blade steel before they are nubs. Ask me how I know.

SameGuy
04-26-2012, 10:16 AM
Hehehe. Same story in automotive. Actually, I got my first Dremel when customizing PCs was all the rage about 10 or 12 years ago, to cut side panels for windows. Yeah, I went through about 20 cutoff wheels per window. I decided it was much easier to tape up the whole panel and use a jigsaw with a carbide blade. Nowadays neither gets used all that much.

TB_London
04-26-2012, 12:42 PM
Managed to get this finished yesterday :D

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2040%2024.jpg

Took some pics of the process if anyone is interested:


Traced around the old scales
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2019%2020.jpg

Used the tang on top of the scales to mark the holes for the pins
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2020%2021.jpg

Once the positions were marked finished drilling the holes, and then used one scale to transfer the marks to the other scale
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2025%2003.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2025%2012.jpg

Using the rivets to hold the holes in line whilst i drill the other holes
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2025%2044.jpg

Both scales marked up and drilled
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2033%2025.jpg

Flattening the tang side of the scales on a flat surface with some sand paper, i drew a checkerboard similar to flattening a stone
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2014%2057%2052.jpg

Prior to gluing i needed to shape the front of the scales as it's easier without the blade getting in the way. Living in a block of flats i did as much by hand to avoid too much noise
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2023-04-2012%2016%2052%2028.jpg

Scales roughly shaped
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2014%2003%2006.jpg

I drilled the counterbores for the cutlers rivets and checked everything still lined up
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2015%2022%2003.jpg

Whilst the scales are together i find it easier to finish the fronts of both scales and keep them symmetrical
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2016%2034%2015.jpg

Ready for glue up
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2016%2048%2019.jpg

Glued up, rivets set and ready for shaping
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2019%2001%2001.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2024-04-2012%2019%2001%2007.jpg

Shaping and polishing
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2016%2006%2010.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2016%2006%2016.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2016%2006%2022.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2004%2054.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2004%2057.jpg


Finished up

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2039%2011.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2039%2028.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2040%2024.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2040%2018.jpg


A few more to keep me busy when i get the chance....
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/Photo%2025-04-2012%2017%2043%2016.jpg

This was the first time i had used cutlers rivets and i much prefer using pinstock, so much less hassle and i'm not sure of the need for mechanical fixings on kitchen knife handles. I also had less room to shape the handle due to the heads of the rivets and the risk of sanding going through them on curves. They were also a hassle setting as i had drilled my countersink holes a little too deep and so i had to improvise to be able to close them up without the scales getting in the way, whilst the glue was curing (i also used quick cure epoxy which added to the stress)....

TB_London
04-26-2012, 12:45 PM
Oh nearly forgot, pics of the gap at the front before i filled them them sawdust glue mix

This pic shows where the blade finish extends up the tang
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/finish%20extending%20to%20the%20tang.jpg

And this is the resulting gap
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1867951/Forum%20pics/Tojiro%20ITK/Resized/gap%20due%20to%20finishing.jpg

kalaeb
04-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Beautiful, thanks for the pics.

Deckhand
04-26-2012, 01:20 PM
Nice job. I like the three pins matching the blade color. Wish I was as enterprising.

Johnny.B.Good
04-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Looks good to me TB, well done.

SpikeC
04-26-2012, 04:21 PM
Very nice job! Now you know why a rehandle job costs what it does, eh?

TB_London
04-26-2012, 07:10 PM
Cheers for the comments


Very nice job! Now you know why a rehandle job costs what it does, eh?

Haha, definitely. It was stressful enough with my own $60 knife, doing it with someone else's pride and joy would be a step up. Getting a perfect fit for the pins and all around the tang takes practice which I need more of. Then shaping it so that it is comfortable and symmetrical took a lot of trial and error. Using mostly hand tools meant it took a few hours to do, but mistakes happened slower too, a decent sander would be nice though.

Taz575
04-26-2012, 07:44 PM
Equipment can make a lot of difference, but like you said, mistakes happen slower with hand tools!! I had a friend build me up a little 1x30 with a small wheel attachment. I have a 1/2" and a 1" diameter wheel for it, makes trimming up the handle slabs/tang easy! The sander has a large slack belt portion as well to help shape out handles. I also like using files after I rough shape the handle out to make sure everything is smooth and comfy, then I move to sandpaper and work my way up.

That handle looks pretty sweet!!! I also prefer pins, 1/8" pins with a #30 drill bit, nice and easy!

TB_London
04-26-2012, 07:55 PM
I've seen a few WIPS where people use rasps and I've nearly bought some a few times, but end up spending the money on knives instead....
Any suggestions for makes/shapes/sizes?

Taz575
04-26-2012, 08:02 PM
I've been trying out the Japanese Iwasaki Files. They take some getting used to though and tend to really bite into edges and stuff. Some material they chip out, but stabilized woods and laminates they do a nice job on, but they are odd to use and expensive. I would get a Nicholson 10" round bas tard and a 8" half round bas tard cut. I use those 2 a lot in shaping handles. I would also get a half round, maybe a 6" in a smoother cut (second cut maybe?) to clean up the teeth marks before moving to hand sanding.

TB_London
04-27-2012, 05:11 AM
Cheers for the recs, interesting you use the Iwasaki files, these were the ones I was looking at, do they still tend to chip out with finer teeth?

Taz575
04-27-2012, 08:52 AM
Yeah. I don't use the medium one much. The fine and ex fine can still chip out stuff. I would get one of the fine or ex fine and see if you like them. For the epoxy/linen material I have been playing with, they work well and cut quickly, so I mainly use them for that.

Dave Martell
04-27-2012, 10:04 AM
Nice results and the WIP pics were great too! :thumbsup:

apicius9
04-27-2012, 02:07 PM
Nice results and the WIP pics were great too! :thumbsup:

Definitely! May I ask a question: Will pins be enough or is is absolutely necessary to use corby or other bolts? I have yet to make my first Western handle, and I just don't want to invest in more specialty drills for what will very likely be a singular project...

Stefan

Taz575
04-27-2012, 02:34 PM
I use Pins and JB Quik Weld, no problems with the handle coming off. Kitchen knives don't get the stress like a combat knife would. Pins help so the handle can't be sheared off. Or you could use the screw type fasteners where there is a threaded rod and 2 buttons with a screw head. You would need to counter sink, but you grind off most of the head anyway.

Deckhand
04-27-2012, 02:39 PM
Definitely! May I ask a question: Will pins be enough or is is absolutely necessary to use corby or other bolts? I have yet to make my first Western handle, and I just don't want to invest in more specialty drills for what will very likely be a singular project...

Stefan

If you feel like doing two at once someone might send you a block of wood,specialty drills, and a tojiro itk.:biggrin:

TB_London
04-27-2012, 02:51 PM
With decent epoxy I reckon you could get away without any pins on a kitchen knife. As I understand epoxy is 'weak' to shearing forces, so the pins provide mechanical resistance to this. By 'weak' it's still relative I reckon it would still take a few whacks with a hammer to knock them off.
Would be an interesting experiment with some scrap

apicius9
04-27-2012, 03:03 PM
Thanks, that sounds encouraging. I have nickel silver and mosaic pins, just didn't want to have to buy counter sink drills, bolts etc. Oh, and as much as I am up for adventure, I wouldn't want to use someone else's wood or knife for experimenting ;)

Stefan

Deckhand
04-27-2012, 03:07 PM
Thanks, that sounds encouraging. I have nickel silver and mosaic pins, just didn't want to have to buy counter sink drills, bolts etc. Oh, and as much as I am up for adventure, I wouldn't want to use someone else's wood or knife for experimenting ;)

Stefan

NP later if you feel comfortable doing yours, and feel like doing another. Would be happy to have you do mine for business. Good luck! I am sure it will turn out amazing!

Dave Martell
04-27-2012, 03:27 PM
I started off using Corbys because I was concerned and didn't want to add in a potential problem but I've switched to just using pins now. I did a test where I glued a set of scales onto a tang with no pins at all and had to literally hammer and chisel them off so I figure that with some pins it's pretty secure. Also, if wood is going to warp and pull away then it'll do it even with the use of Corby bolts - and yes I'm speaking from multiple experiences here - it happens. :doublebanghead:

Taz575
04-27-2012, 04:25 PM
I have an old chisel set aside just for this purpose! I used to use the Devcon 2 Ton a while back, but I got a bad batch that wasn't waterproof and handles started to pop off. LOL. That sucked big time!! But with the JB Quick Weld, no problems. If you want to try it, order a generic blank from one of the knife supply houses and give it a go. Most have Green River Carbon blades; the 6" boning knife is only like $10 for the blade.