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View Full Version : I need some help guys. ( serious stuffy here)



sachem allison
03-14-2012, 02:02 PM
You guys know that I am not one to ask for help lightly, but this isn't for me. I met a young lady, the other day who just lit up my world ( not the pastry chef) She is a beautiful spirit and a beautiful lady and she has suffered from multiple bouts of Cancer. She is tough and feisty. She found out that I was part Native American and told me that she had been having dreams of flying away with birds and finally being free and happy. As a Native, I know what that dream means and the birds that she picked couldn't have been more apt. They are very sacred to many tribes and are messengers of sorts and tricksters. I want to make her a medicine bundle, for her journey. She isn't afraid, she considers it a new life and she will finally be able to fly. I have very rarely been privileged enough to come into contact with a more compassionate group of people than you guys, I am not asking for donations. I need help finding feathers. I need some red tailed hawk, bluebird, raven(not crow) and owl feathers. I normally have these or can get them from various medicine men or elders, but I now live in NYC and communication on the rez is mediocre at best and many of my feathers were destroyed or taken during the robbery, not because they knew what they were taking.
I know that many of you guys live in areas were these birds are and may have picked some up in your walks or travels. If you guys could spare one or two, I would be forever in your debt and you will give a beautiful young lady a chance to fly.
Thank you, Sachem Son

Mike Davis
03-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Son, i am an avid fly fisherman and i tie my own flies. I will look in my stash and see what i can find, I will also get with a few friends and see what i can get for you.

Chifunda
03-14-2012, 02:31 PM
I need some red tailed hawk, bluebird, raven(not crow) and owl feathers.

Please know that I'm not trying to be some dick-head spoil sport but the possession of migratory bird and/or raptor feathers is illegal and penalties can be severe. I understand that there are some exemptions for Native Americans but beyond that the laws are quite clear.

I understand and applaud your motivation...just sayin' be careful. All it takes is one overzealous DNR agent or the like. There are plenty of non native species with attractive plumage that might serve your purposes.

hax9215
03-14-2012, 02:46 PM
I have a Boy Scout Troop here in Louisville, and we are going out this weekend-we will search. Amazingly enough, there is a pair of Red Tails in our neighborhood, I have seen the male hunting and perching on the fence outside my window. I will check for feathers. My respect for you grows, Son.

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!! :D

tkern
03-14-2012, 02:57 PM
Son, My uncle is a birdbander and has a bunch of stuff. I'm emailing him now and hopefully have some of what you're looking for.

Chifunda
03-14-2012, 02:59 PM
From the U.S. Department of the Interior:

"Many people ask “If I find an eagle or hawk feather, can I keep it?” The answer is "No." All raptors are protected by state and federal regulations. It is illegal to capture or kill a raptor; possess a raptor (living or dead), or any pieces or parts of raptors, including feathers, without proper permits from state and federal government agencies."

I will now shut up on this subject.

Michael Rader
03-14-2012, 03:01 PM
Well our esteemed president just gave a tribe in Wyoming the right to hunt the Bald Eagle, so maybe there will be feathers on the market real soon :-(
(not sure about the other birds, however.)

-M

Eamon Burke
03-14-2012, 03:12 PM
Eh, we used to keep every bird we'd hit in our car(it was a '79 Lincoln Town Car, so a lot of birds), and gave it to a cherokee guy that lived in Mathis. I really wouldn't worry about picking up feathers or carcasses being a problem unless you are on a national park or wildlife refuge with a game warden nearby.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 03:49 PM
cannot purchase feathers for legal reasons. They must be given freely or found. This is a sacred thing for a sacred reason and must remain untainted. thank you for your offer, I appreciate it my friend
I am a member of the tribe and would not ask anyone to risk any thing. The young lady is also native and we have legal rights to possess the feathers for ceremonial purposes. If at any time the moderators or Dave feel uncomfortable about my request, please remove the thread, as I do not anyone to feel uncomfortable.

Crothcipt
03-14-2012, 04:03 PM
I am just curious about the differences between raven and crow feathers. I know I have seen both but I am not remembering the differences.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 04:12 PM
raven is a much bigger bird, they have black beaks with a hump on them. generally much smarter. They play a major role in many native cultures.

tk59
03-14-2012, 05:45 PM
I see some of these feathers from time to time when walking around with the kids. I'll be sure to send 'em over, if I find them.

BobCat
03-14-2012, 06:04 PM
PM sent

deborah

hax9215
03-14-2012, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE=Chifunda;90838]From the U.S. Department of the Interior:

"Many people ask “If I find an eagle or hawk feather, can I keep it?” The answer is "No." All raptors are protected by state and federal regulations. It is illegal to capture or kill a raptor; possess a raptor (living or dead), or any pieces or parts of raptors, including feathers, without proper permits from state and federal government agencies."

As a certified Trainer of Boy Scout Leaders and a member of the Leave No Trace outdoor skills class, I stipulate to potentially expensive Federal and State statute prohibitng removal of raptor feathers per Chifunda's statement, and express appreciation for his respect for the rule of law-it is a tenet of citizenship we try to teach our boys. Considering the circumstances, I choose to take my chances with the Criminal Justice System of which I am a part. Sometimes you break the rules, another lesson I will teach them.

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!! :D

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 07:47 PM
I one hundred percent agree with what Chifunda has said also and again I say if you have any doubts or misgivings please do not do anything. I will take full responsibility for this. I made a promise to help in anyway I can and that means taking responsibility for my actions. I will help here, because I can't do anything less than that. I thank all of you for your concern. I am not asking anybody to harm or hunt any of these birds, only pick up what you find, that is it. please do not harm anything for her or me.
sachem

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 07:57 PM
Please know that I'm not trying to be some dick-head spoil sport but the possession of migratory bird and/or raptor feathers is illegal and penalties can be severe. I understand that there are some exemptions for Native Americans but beyond that the laws are quite clear.

I understand and applaud your motivation...just sayin' be careful. All it takes is one overzealous DNR agent or the like. There are plenty of non native species with attractive plumage that might serve your purposes.

it isn't the attractive plumage part that is needed, these birds are sacred and the purpose of the feathers is to carry her spirit to the creator, These particular birds have been in her dreams for awhile now and are waiting to take her home. This is what she believes and I will not deny her that belief. I understand were you are coming from and in my normal life I would be right beside you warning others. I ,however because of a role thrust upon me years ago that I never fully accepted cannot deny her her request it would be spiritual murder. I'm willing to make the sacrifice for her. respectfully, sachem

DeepCSweede
03-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Son,

Isn't there a reserve in Arizona that collects / distributes protected species feathers to native americans for rituals? I was on a trip back in college while I was taking a couple of native american studies classes and ran across some place that did that. Sorry, I do not remember the name, it was almost twenty years ago.

Eric

Chifunda
03-14-2012, 08:07 PM
sachem,

I hope I made it clear that I'm completely simpatico with what you are doing for the young lady and admire you for your sentiment.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 08:10 PM
Son,

Isn't there a reserve in Arizona that collects / distributes protected species feathers to native americans for rituals? I was on a trip back in college while I was taking a couple of native american studies classes and ran across some place that did that. Sorry, I do not remember the name, it was almost twenty years ago.

Eric I know what you are talking about, but I don't remember them. This needs to be done out of love and friendship though, a little different type of ceremony. I will have to dust off, my old self and perform this one and when it is done, put that self away again.
thank you, Eric. I wish I was still in Wisconsin then I could go to the Menominee Rez and talk to the elders there. I'm sure that they would do a much better job then this old bear.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 08:12 PM
sachem,

I hope I made it clear that I'm completely simpatico with what you are doing for the young lady and admire you for your sentiment.

I 100 percent understand and I appreciate you concern, when I posted originally, I didn't really think about that. I just wanted to help her. I am glad you pointed this out that way people are aware. no worries here.
thank you

Lucretia
03-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Information on feather repositories can be found here (http://www.fws.gov/southwest/NAL/feathers.html).

Don't know if they'd be able to meet your needs, but it doesn't hurt to check them out.

Good luck.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 09:12 PM
thank you, darlin

Salty dog
03-14-2012, 09:21 PM
You guys know that I am not one to ask for help lightly, but this isn't for me. I met a young lady, the other day who just lit up my world ( not the pastry chef) She is a beautiful spirit and a beautiful lady and she has suffered from multiple bouts of Cancer. She is tough and feisty. She found out that I was part Native American and told me that she had been having dreams of flying away with birds and finally being free and happy. As a Native, I know what that dream means and the birds that she picked couldn't have been more apt. They are very sacred to many tribes and are messengers of sorts and tricksters. I want to make her a medicine bundle, for her journey. She isn't afraid, she considers it a new life and she will finally be able to fly. I have very rarely been privileged enough to come into contact with a more compassionate group of people than you guys, I am not asking for donations. I need help finding feathers. I need some red tailed hawk, bluebird, raven(not crow) and owl feathers. I normally have these or can get them from various medicine men or elders, but I now live in NYC and communication on the rez is mediocre at best and many of my feathers were destroyed or taken during the robbery, not because they knew what they were taking.
I know that many of you guys live in areas were these birds are and may have picked some up in your walks or travels. If you guys could spare one or two, I would be forever in your debt and you will give a beautiful young lady a chance to fly.
Thank you, Sachem Son

I think I registered on the Knife Forums in 2007. And have been active on the web since the day. This is the coolest post I have ever seen bar none.

If I may offer one humble piece of advice.......Don't rely too much on the feathers. Take care of business.

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 09:25 PM
got ahold of them and to get all the relevant paperwork and agencies together would take too long. I don't have that much time. I started the process anyway, she is a tough little girl. you never know. Thank you,
Sachem

sachem allison
03-14-2012, 09:36 PM
I think I registered on the Knife Forums in 2007. And have been active on the web since the day. This is the coolest post I have ever seen bar none.

If I may offer one humble piece of advice.......Don't rely too much on the feathers. Take care of business.
Salty, I am going to make it right, one way or another. The feathers aren't important in the end, you are right in that. They are purely symbolic. I could give her any feather and tell her what she wanted to hear and she would believe me and be okay and I would die inside. This is as much for me as her I guess. I suppose I am being a little selfish here. I don't know what the right thing is, but if I can give her this one gift maybe she can smile more than she already does. They tell me she is the one always smiling and telling everyone it will be alright. Who is going to tell her it will be alright, without bursting into tears. I promised her and I think she knows that it is the search that is important for her , another adventure so to speak. I gave her my word and I can't fail this time.
I will take care of business, that's for sure.

ThEoRy
03-15-2012, 01:48 AM
I applaud your efforts and wish I could help more. May her journey be a peaceful one.


As a side note. Why is it illegal to keep a feather I found on the ground? Curious.

memorael
03-15-2012, 01:54 AM
Son, I don't have any feathers. Is there any other way to help?

Johnny.B.Good
03-15-2012, 01:54 AM
As a side note. Why is it illegal to keep a feather I found on the ground? Curious.

I guess so that if they catch someone in possession of one, they can feel free to assume the worst (that the person killed a protected animal for the feather) and to dissuade a market from forming that would encourage poaching. It does seem strange though. Can't really imagine anyone being charged with a crime for possessing a feather or two that was obtained by peaceful/honest means.

Best of luck to you Son, and to your friend. Sad situation.

sachem allison
03-15-2012, 02:23 AM
Son, I don't have any feathers. Is there any other way to help?

she would want you to enjoy life and try not to be sad too often, thats what she told me. haha! out of the mouth of babes.

slowtyper
03-15-2012, 02:32 AM
Perhaps try Canada? I have no idea if this makes it harder or easier but its worth a shot to call and ask.

http://aht.ca/

This is a downtown branch that I know of but they may help you contact who you need. I believe they have traditional elders/healers there.

sachem allison
03-15-2012, 02:56 AM
thanks, but trying to get anything across the border would be even longer and more bureaucratic. it could be as much as a year or longer for some of these things. not on the Canadian side. but on the American side.

knyfeknerd
03-15-2012, 07:58 AM
Sounds weird, but I had a dream last night that I found 2 Red Tail Hawk feathers for you. Probably a long shot, but we have an awesome raptor center here I'm gonna give them a call today. Probably be a dead end, but it's worth a shot.

DeepCSweede
03-15-2012, 11:31 AM
I applaud your efforts and wish I could help more. May her journey be a peaceful one.


As a side note. Why is it illegal to keep a feather I found on the ground? Curious.

My understanding is that it centered around the depleting numbers of certain birds whose populations were decreasing to unsustainable levels and poaching was not uncommon for these animals because of the high sales value in the open market and the government did not believe that they could curtail the poaching effectively. Animals and birds play a significant role in the religious rights within Native American cultures and maintaining the population of these birds also played into it. The preservation of these feathers for use in these rights was brought to the table in the formation of these laws. This also apply to migratory birds unless you have gotten them through legal hunting means.

Personally, as an avid outdoorsman, I believe that the numbers of these birds has grown to a point where they are sustainable. I also think that the feather laws could very easily change to allowing possession and free transfer but dissallowing sales on the open market.

sachem allison
03-15-2012, 03:11 PM
Hello, Guys
I would like to thank everyone for there support and concerns. I knew this was the right place for this. With that said, I am requesting that Dave remove this thread. It was never my intent to offend anyone or project my beliefs onto any of you. I was compelled to do this, for whatever reason and I will continue to do so. However, I did not realize by posting here that some would have moral objections, regardless of my intentions. I apologize for offending you, but not for my request as it is bigger than me. I am going to ask Dave if he can remove this thread. I do not want something like this to polarize or damage this forum, so many of you have been helpful to me since I have been here, that I do not want to be the cause of any rifts. I do not want the offended ones to do anything that we will all regret later. I and I alone will take full responsibility for any actions or consequences caused by this thread.

Thank you, for your support and understanding.
Sachem Son

Dave Martell
03-15-2012, 03:15 PM
Thread closed at the request of the original poster.