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View Full Version : Shinogi Line + Blended/Convex Bevel? (Gyutos)



Don Nguyen
03-19-2012, 03:29 PM
I do like myself a convex or blended bevel, but I also looooove a clean shinogi line. From what I know, yanagi's have a clean shinogi as well as a slightly convex bevel, right?

What are your thoughts on trying this with a gyuto? Is it already old news?

memorael
03-19-2012, 04:06 PM
I have never heard of this... Maybe if the shinogi line is pretty high on the blade there won't be any problems, or if the knife is thin enough. Probably best to just make a contrast using finger stones or something to give the illusion of a shinogi line.

Eamon Burke
03-19-2012, 05:01 PM
Like this? (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/gyuto/heiji-270mm-wa-gytuo.html)

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 05:07 PM
Or to a lesser extent this: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri/zakuri-240mm-blue-1-kurouchi-gyuto.html
Obviously the main difference is that unlike a traditional knife with a shinogi line (Yanagiba, Usuba, Deba) you do it to both sides. Also the shinogi isn't as pronounced, if it was your knife would be far too thick.

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:09 PM
Heiji, Zakuri, Yoshikane, Kochi and Carter utilize elements of this type of grind. I'm sure there are others but these are what come to mind.

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:11 PM
Heiji, Zakuri, Yoshikane, Kochi and Carter utilize elements of this type of grind. I'm sure there are others but these are what come to mind.

Tinh, are any of the knives (other than Carter) concave below the 'shinogi' line?

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:20 PM
All of them to some extent or another, but it's questionable whether this is by design or the product of the use of grinding wheels, as opposed to belts grinders. Carters (of which I've seen quite a few) are just about flat at some points and convex/concave at others, for example. When you're sharpening, you're not going to thin it concave so unless you plan on sending it back to the manufacturer, the concave part is temporary, imo.

Watanabe is another one that grinds this way.

Don Nguyen
03-19-2012, 06:25 PM
I noticed that the ones I've found so far either: have a hammer or kurouchi finish, or their bevel only travels up about 1/3 of the blade height.
http://www.epicedge.com/pics/85676_3_b.jpg
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/518a337f71d8af45c99bc01d0812e43a/z/a/zak240kgb1onr_3.jpg

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/518a337f71d8af45c99bc01d0812e43a/i/m/img_0027_2.jpg

I really, really like the look of this carter, as the line is higher on the blade.
http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1196116892/gallery_22252_4789_238293.jpg

However, aside from the Heiji, which has a shorter bevel, I haven't found any that have a really distinct and sharp shinogi line. They look kind of wavy and washed.

These are the kinds of grinds I really love, where the shinogi is halfway up the blade height, and they are prominent and cleeeean.
http://www.nakayaheiji.co.jp/contents/hocho/hocho-image/usuba-azuma.JPG
http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/EADIM-Watanabe-Yanagi-Split.jpg


I do realize that it's a difference between single and double bevel, and all sorts of factors including thicknesses, angles, finishes, bevel heights, etc.

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:29 PM
If you want to do a gyuto with a shinogi line similar to one that is on a yanagiba or usuba the knife will be far too thick.

Don Nguyen
03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
Yeah, maybe I'm looking for a mythical entity that doesn't exist... :(

Perhaps I try to grind a knife like this, though? Just as an idea, it's very exaggerated; the spine wont be sharp or anything, the idea is just to have a slight angle above the shinogi line. Hope I'm not being too confusing.

http://img.tfd.com/ggse/73/gsed_0001_0022_0_img6527.png

Similarly to how some knives have false edges above the actual bevel, along the whole knife?

I imagine there are probably performance issues with this, then =/

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:35 PM
If you want to do a gyuto with a shinogi line similar to one that is on a yanagiba or usuba the knife will be far too thick.Nah. I think you could do it, esp. if you aren't doing it by hand. . The thinner the knife the more difficult it's gonna be to get a clean shinogi just because the difference in angle will be so minute.

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:37 PM
Yeah, maybe I'm looking for a mythical entity that doesn't exist... :(

Perhaps I try to grind a knife like this, though? Just as an idea, it's very exaggerated; the spine wont be sharp or anything, the idea is just to have a slight angle above the shinogi line. Hope I'm not being too confusing.

http://img.tfd.com/ggse/73/gsed_0001_0022_0_img6527.png

Similarly to how some knives have false edges above the actual bevel, along the whole knife?

I imagine there are probably performance issues with this, then =/

I ground a knife like this. Shigefusa tends to do a less exaggerated version, as well.

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:37 PM
Nah. I think you could do it, esp. if you aren't doing it by hand. . The thinner the knife the more difficult it's gonna be to get a clean shinogi just because the difference in angle will be so minute.

I guess there is only one way to find out for sure, but I'm guessing there is a reason why it hasn't been done. I assume when Don means gyuto with a shinogi he will be doing it to both sides, BTW.

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:40 PM
I ground a knife like this. Shigefusa tends to do a less exaggerated version, as well.

Really? I Always thought Shigefusa had a thin mid-section from having a mainly concave grind then a slight convex grind near the edge. :surrendar:

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:41 PM
I guess there is only one way to find out for sure, but I'm guessing there is a reason why it hasn't been done. I assume when Don means gyuto with a shinogi he will be doing it to both sides, BTW.
You know, I seem to remember the new Mizunos having a subtle secondary bevel/shinogi thing going...

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:42 PM
Really? I Always thought Shigefusa had a thin mid-section from having a mainly concave grind then a slight convex grind near the edge. :surrendar:You could look at it that way. The examply sitting here in fron of me is thicker in the middle than it is on the spine or the edge (obviously). That's all I'm saying.

Don Nguyen
03-19-2012, 06:42 PM
I'd have to play around with the idea first. Initially what I wanted to do was (on a right-handed knife) have close to a full-flat on the left side and on the right side have the bevel with the shinogi.

Though, it seems like it's incredibly difficult, just because of such small differences with the angle, and I'm trying to get a convex bevel with it. Maybe I'm trying to be too fancy with this?

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:43 PM
You could look at it that way. The examply sitting here in fron of me is thicker in the middle than it is on the spine or the edge (obviously). That's all I'm saying.

I'll defer to you having only seen pictures of them.

Don Nguyen
03-19-2012, 06:46 PM
Something like this:

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad18/dthenguyen/Untitled.png

Is that even practical? Am I focusing too much on aesthetics and sacrificing possible performance?

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:50 PM
I have a couple of knives ground almost like that. They work great but you have to deal with some steering, depending on how you do it.

Andrew H
03-19-2012, 06:51 PM
So you want to do a urasuki? I'd probably try doing a flat grind first.
If you have the time I'd give it go. Seems like a good learning experience at least.

TB_London
03-19-2012, 06:57 PM
I find knives with large secondary bevels a la Takeda/watanabe/carter easy to maintain on the stones as you can match this bevel to thin when needs be.
The bevels on the carters that I've had have been quite wavy, but aren't too much work to even out, I did this with my double bevel suji ,though won't be crisp due to the unground area above the bevel
http://db.tt/BoBMByLE

tk59
03-19-2012, 06:59 PM
I can't believe I forgot Takeda and Moritaka... :O

schanop
03-19-2012, 07:02 PM
If you want a higher shinogi line, you can always raise it. This is what I did to my zakuri aoichiko:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/411/pict0114i.jpg
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/8648/pict0113y.jpg

You can see that the left side bevel is a bit larger due to lower angle grind, and the right hand bevel has a bit more convexity to it. The shinogi line wouldn't be that sharp because the face is slightly wavy. But it can be neatly done, at least.

Pensacola Tiger
03-19-2012, 07:03 PM
It almost looks like you want a "real" funayuki, a single-bevel, like the Suisin Dreamcraft:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/suisin/suisin-dreamcraft/suisin-dreamcraft-210mm-gin-momizi-funayuki.html

or a Suisin Momiji Funayuki:

http://korin.com/Momiji-Funayuki_2?sc=7&category=17305

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Pensacola%20Tigers%20Knives/IMG_0926.jpg

Both are exceptionally thin and are designed as all-purpose knives, but do "steer" because they are single-bevel.

Rick

Sarge
03-20-2012, 12:07 AM
Something like this:

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad18/dthenguyen/Untitled.png

Is that even practical? Am I focusing too much on aesthetics and sacrificing possible performance?

It can be practical. I would say you wouldn't need to thin above your desired shinogi line. Really to get a look like you're looking for on a gyuto all you'd need is a steady hand and some patience. I'll try and locate my camera cord and start a web photo thingy and show you how my new gyuto looks currently. If you have a consistent hand you can put one on in either a number of sharpening sessions or if you have to time and coarse enough stones do it in one. Use the magic marker trick to see how low you have to go with your angle to get the line where you want it and then stay on that angle and convex up from there.

As for the back side you then put that as close to a zero and angle as you want (if you're looking to match your diagram) or whatever deburr/back angle you want. If you're looking to make the back concave then things will be trickier.

Salty dog
03-20-2012, 12:34 AM
T.C.Blades


http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a442/Saltys_knives/IMG_2805.jpg

Salty dog
03-20-2012, 12:38 AM
She's flat on the back

Mike Davis
03-20-2012, 12:45 AM
Damn Salty, that sure is a sexy knife!!!

Salty dog
03-20-2012, 01:02 AM
She's a beast

Don Nguyen
03-20-2012, 01:07 AM
Wow Salty, that is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks :)

How does she perform compared to some of your other favored knives?

Salty dog
03-20-2012, 01:21 AM
That knife is hefty. I mean almost mioroshi like. Tsil from TC Blades can make it to spec but his gig is nice wood all around, flat back, hammer finish. And I love his fiesty nature.

I didn't even try getting used to it. There was steer, a learning curve etc. I'm not a flat back gyuto guy. At least not dead flat.

Don Nguyen
03-20-2012, 01:40 AM
I checked out the website. He has some preeeeetty bevels. They certainly don't look that hefty though.

http://www.tcblades.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/13_02_2011_1f.2010447_large.jpg
http://www.tcblades.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/richard_seechuk_004.2005907_large.jpg

Is he fairly well known? I had never heard of TC Blades before.

Salty dog
03-20-2012, 02:06 AM
I also have his "laser" he can make them however thick you want them.

He's been around but because of his outspoken nature and unwilling to whore himself out, he hovers under the radar in this country.

(And a few outspoken members don't like him)

Johnny.B.Good
03-20-2012, 02:41 AM
Is he fairly well known? I had never heard of TC Blades before.

I have never seen one of his knives in person, but he has a gallery (http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?6675-Alchemist-s-knives) over on FF. Pretty cool and unusual looking stuff (especially the handles, some of which I love).

Don Nguyen
03-20-2012, 03:18 AM
Yep yep. I looked through that gallery, and those knives with the kurouchi and mirror bevels look so dang good.

Thanks everyone for your input, it's greatly appreciated.