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maxim
04-04-2012, 06:20 AM
One of my first Japanese knives was from Moritaka.
I have a Petty, Gyuto and Nakiri.
I have heard of the problem Dave mentioned but i never had it on my Moritakes. I have seen the problem on some of my customers knives.
Like Dave mentions they are just not fixable !! If you have that hole in your knife you have to grind behind it to remove that hole completely.
So i thought i was pretty lucky because all of mine 3 Moritakas did not had that issues.
Until recently :scared4:
I used my Moritakas a lot, so i probably used 2 or 3 mm of my knifes, and guess what the hole problem showed up after that :sad0:
So just to remind you all, that hole problem is real on Moritakas and it can even show up after you have used your knife for some time !!

Dave Martell
04-04-2012, 10:22 AM
Wow I'm shocked - not. :D

I just recently had two more problem Moritakas come through that I refused to work on. One of these was very clearly an issue but the other one was more hidden like your knife.

Sorry to hear that you got hit with this Maksim but you're not alone.

Deckhand
04-04-2012, 10:34 AM
Sorry to hear that.

Marko Tsourkan
04-04-2012, 10:38 AM
I have seen some of these 'holes' on Watanabe or whoever made those knives. My understanding they are grinding dips from a grinding wheel - they are often at the heel (from wobbling the blade or plunge it unevenly). These 'dips' can be right at the edge, or above the edge, like in Maxim's case. If you ever flattened a yanagi, you would know exactly what I am talking about.

These dips can be concealed with finish, so one won't see them until a knife is on the stones. To remove these dips entirely, a knife has to be thinned considerably and sometimes height reduced. Sometiemes, a yanagi has to be trashed because of that - Dave, remember that Tanaka yanagi you were working on?

I won't be very diplomatic saying it is poor workmanship rather than minor imperfections, and sending out knives like these, a maker assumes that public is uneducated on knives and won't catch the defect. It doesn't render the knife unusable though, but it does diminish its value.

I yet again tip my hat to Shigefusa, as I never seen a knife from them that had a similar issue, and probably never will.

M

maxim
04-04-2012, 11:00 AM
Yes, like you Marko i have seen that problem on some other knives too, even on stamped Germans.

jmfreeman35
04-04-2012, 02:33 PM
What does Moritaka have to say about it? I would think they would stand behind then workmanship and correct it if something is wrong?

I have two moritakas, 150 petty and the new KS, and so far so good. But I'm not going to be a happy man if i come across this issue down the road...

Dave Martell
04-04-2012, 02:42 PM
What does Moritaka have to say about it? I would think they would stand behind then workmanship and correct it if something is wrong?

I have two moritakas, 150 petty and the new KS, and so far so good. But I'm not going to be a happy man if i come across this issue down the road...


I can't point you to the exact threads but back on KF it was noted multiple times that members had contacted Moritaka directly and the response was initially denial then later acknowledgement, however, the acknowledgment came with a refusal to do anything about the problem....something along the lines of, "we know that this happens but it's not a problem - this is normal" or something to that effect.

Also, the US retailer has been told about this issue numerous times yet (in my opinion) has refused to accept it as fact.

Anyone buying these knives is rolling craps.....

Sarge
04-04-2012, 03:07 PM
I had one for two years and never had any issues with holes. I did an incredible amount of thinning and certainly took off over 2-3mm from the edge. There was a section that perhaps could have had an issue that was far more ground down than than the rest of the knife, but I noticed it early in the thinning process and brought things into line with it. It could be that my experiences were an exception in that the potential hole was small and I never had problems. I wouldn't buy a Moritaka again, but that has to do with the overly reactive cladding, and it being a clad knife to begin with.

I loved that knife and still miss certain aspects of it, but with as many other knives there are out there it just isn't worth the potential problems to buy one in my humble opinion.

Although when I did gamble I played craps and always came out on top, but I still won't be buying one again.

jmfreeman35
04-04-2012, 03:08 PM
Awesome. I can't believe that they know this is going on, yet refuse to do anything about it.

Frankly, I'm rather ticked off that I am supporting a company that knows they are putting out a flawed product and doesnt care...I wish did a little more research before picking up my moritakas...

olpappy
04-04-2012, 03:44 PM
I want to point out that this problem can occur on any knife from any maker. As others have noted this has been also observed on other knives, yanagis, German stamped knives... Unless the knifemaker grinds each knife perfectly every time. Finish polishing can certainly hide it, but basically I don't think there is going to be any western style knife polished with a sanding belt or grinding wheel that doesn't have small variations in the surface that would show up if you ground it against a flat stone. Usually the dips should not be so deep that they would affect the edge when sharpening.

The fact that this has been noted more frequently with Moritaka doesn't reflect well on them, but I would characterize this as a factor present in all knives, I have thinned many gyutos and inevitably when you put the side of a blade on the stones you will see higher and lower spots, all knives have this to some degree. It is a matter of degree, obviously if the hole is deep enough to affect the edge it is a problem. Most yanagi that you try to flatten will have this problem also, due to machine grinding. It is only some of the high priced yanagis that have more steps of hand finishing that will have a flat blade road from the maker, these represent the exception rather than the rule.

tk59
04-04-2012, 04:22 PM
I want to point out that this problem can occur on any knife from any maker...Maybe. At this point, I've handled hundreds of knives looking for problems of this nature and I'm pretty good at it. I've seen lots of little waves and dips but only a couple where the edge might be affected. One was an early DTITK and the other was a lower line Watanabe. Without having ever seen a Moritaka, it sounds to me that they have a problem.

labor of love
04-04-2012, 04:26 PM
I purchased a moritaka ks recently. As far as I can tell it doesn't have any issues at all with the grind. I figured with all the commotion this caused in the past moritaka would've gotten its act together by now. I'll never get another moritaka I was just too intrigued not to check out the ks. I'm curious if anybody has come across newly produced moritakas with this defect?

Dave Martell
04-04-2012, 04:30 PM
I'm curious if anybody has come across newly produced moritakas with this defect?


Yes sir I have but I haven't seen this KS clone yet so you might get lucky with the craps table. :)

jmfreeman35
04-04-2012, 04:44 PM
Yes sir I have but I haven't seen this KS clone yet so you might get lucky with the craps table. :)

Thats what im hoping for at this point...

when i first got it, it did have some serious grinding issues, but i was able to solve that problem with some time on the stones. Only time will tell if more serious issue come up.

maxim
04-04-2012, 05:28 PM
I think the problem here is mistaken with uneven grind, Its not !
It is not like on Yanagis or wide bevel knives that have uneven grinds or low spots. That you can fix.
But problem with Moritake is more complex.
It is like the hard steel (hagane) on the knife is bend in and if you try flatten the bevel that spot get more steel removal and creates a big hole in the edge.

On Yanagis or other knives there are just low spots that can be fixed with flattening, and they are usually only on cladding.

knyfeknerd
04-04-2012, 05:36 PM
I originally wanted a moritaka kiritsuke 270 around xmas time last year, but US retailer was out of stock. I settled for the Doi instead, which in hindsight was probably a better decision. Lucky me!
After seeing this thread, I will probably stay away from them.

Dave Martell
04-04-2012, 05:49 PM
I think the problem here is mistaken with uneven grind, Its not !
It is not like on Yanagis or wide bevel knives that have uneven grinds or low spots. That you can fix.
But problem with Moritake is more complex.
It is like the hard steel (hagane) on the knife is bend in and if you try flatten the bevel that spot get more steel removal and creates a big hole in the edge.

On Yanagis or other knives there are just low spots that can be fixed with flattening, and they are usually only on cladding.


EXACTLY!

jmfreeman35
04-04-2012, 06:32 PM
Yah that was the problem with mine, very uneven grinding. That I can live with/fix, but holes forming on the edge is a whole another story

dav
04-04-2012, 08:00 PM
Well I purchased 2 Moritaka's as my first knives without realising the potential problems, I must admit after reading about the "issues" I though bugger (English saying there lol) spent a decent amount and may have made a poor choice anyway I've had the square to both of them - one a supreme petty which seems fine and the second a supreme damascus gyuto again no problems so maybe I just got lucky I must admit though that the damascus gyuto's finish and level of sharpness out of the box was far superior to the supreme with Kurouchi finish which was blunt OOTB whereas the supreme damascus was extremely sharp (could shave with ease) and as said finish of blade was fine maybe this series is better finished?

It seems a shame that a maker with such a strong heritage seems to have let things slip, I seem to have been lucky but due to all the negative feedback from this forum I'll stear clear in the future which is a shame as the damascus gyuto is a lovely looking knife and from my limited experience cuts and performs superbly.

sw2geeks
04-04-2012, 08:26 PM
I have been pretty happy with both of mine. But they both were custom order.

FinkPloyd
04-04-2012, 08:33 PM
I wish someone would post a picture with arrows pointing to trouble zones. Although your explanations are great, I still can't quite visualize the problem.

Eamon Burke
04-04-2012, 08:35 PM
I think the problem here is mistaken with uneven grind, Its not !
It is not like on Yanagis or wide bevel knives that have uneven grinds or low spots. That you can fix.
But problem with Moritake is more complex.
It is like the hard steel (hagane) on the knife is bend in and if you try flatten the bevel that spot get more steel removal and creates a big hole in the edge.

On Yanagis or other knives there are just low spots that can be fixed with flattening, and they are usually only on cladding.



Um. Holy crap. That is a MAJOR defect!!

I have learned to sharpen overground knives, the bevel looks nasty and it takes some extra concentration, but as long as your stone contact area is larger than the overgrind you are fine. I've seen overgrinds on all types and makes of knives. Of all the knives I've seen 3 or more of, the only brand/maker with a spotless record in my experience has been Suisin and Rodrigue. I'm sure there are several makers who have a record like that, but I haven't seen many of their knives. The truth is, it's not the end of the world, and often is more cosmetic.

This, however. Sounds like a nightmare situation!! I remember reading his letter about how he doesn't think that it will affect the way Japanese cooks use the knives because they use a slicing motion. But how on Earth do these ever get forged? Aren't there quality checks at any point??

I've been fortunate enough to have never been sent a troublesome Moritaka for sharpening...maybe no Moritakas?? I think the word is out in the US about this issue.

G-rat
04-04-2012, 09:14 PM
Um. Holy crap. That is a MAJOR defect!!

I have learned to sharpen overground knives, the bevel looks nasty and it takes some extra concentration, but as long as your stone contact area is larger than the overgrind you are fine.

Can you explain what this means in more detail?

NO ChoP!
04-04-2012, 09:22 PM
IMO, Moritaka sells ten fold the knives Watanabe sells, so if there is ten times the problems, it seems normal to me...

I have several, including a custom ordered 300 yanagi. I have sharpened it many, many times...zero issues.

Reminds me of the Taurus handgun...guy tells me they send back two Taurus for one of every other gun combined...then goes on to tell me 75% of what they sell is Taurus!!!! Hello?

Eamon Burke
04-04-2012, 09:46 PM
IMO, Moritaka sells ten fold the knives Watanabe sells, so if there is ten times the problems, it seems normal to me...

I have several, including a custom ordered 300 yanagi. I have sharpened it many, many times...zero issues.

Reminds me of the Taurus handgun...guy tells me they send back two Taurus for one of every other gun combined...then goes on to tell me 75% of what they sell is Taurus!!!! Hello?

I don't see why these knives would ever even get to the end of the process of being made, much less leave the shop. This is not like an "Oops, didn't notice that", they genuinely do not feel it is an issue worth addressing, as stated in the email response the maker sent out! It's his business, he can run it how he likes; I just don't see how a giant warp in the core steel is acceptable. It's like a chef saying that he's really busy and serves hundreds of people a day, sometimes a broken sauce gets put on a plate, no big deal, my customers mix it with the starch anyways. It's a problem you can spot way before it even gets finished, and shouldn't be up to par for QC.

SpikeC
04-04-2012, 09:51 PM
If you like the Shun wavy jobbies you would not have a problem!

Johnny.B.Good
04-04-2012, 09:57 PM
I wish someone would post a picture with arrows pointing to trouble zones. Although your explanations are great, I still can't quite visualize the problem.

There was a long thread about this issue posted here last summer, including this illustration (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1367-Moritaka-how-long?p=19910&viewfull=1#post19910) of this problem.

Not sure that the experts all agree this accurately depicts the problem or not.

Marko Tsourkan
04-04-2012, 10:27 PM
Yes, that is what a 'hole' or a 'dip' looks like. You will notice it when your edge doesn't hit the stone, while you sharpen. It's basically an overgrind. It can be at the edge or above it - hell, it can be anywhere on the blade, depending how sloppy the person grinding it is.

5833

M

Dave Martell
04-04-2012, 10:33 PM
IMO, Moritaka sells ten fold the knives Watanabe sells, so if there is ten times the problems, it seems normal to me...

I have several, including a custom ordered 300 yanagi. I have sharpened it many, many times...zero issues.

Reminds me of the Taurus handgun...guy tells me they send back two Taurus for one of every other gun combined...then goes on to tell me 75% of what they sell is Taurus!!!! Hello?


I agree with your thinking 100% but Moritaka was passing their worst examples to us when they were selling less than 10 knives a year in the USA. Early on I saw some very nice work from them that was one off custom stuff but their village blacksmith models have always been clunky>junky from day 1. And for the record their not a volume knife making company, they're a tiny little back alley blacksmith who jump between fixing jackhammer bits to making these knives. Any top quality workmanship that the family produced in the realm of swordmaking has evidently long passed.

Marko Tsourkan
04-04-2012, 10:39 PM
I got to say, I like the name of this thread. :D

Eamon Burke
04-04-2012, 10:44 PM
Yes, that is what a 'hole' or a 'dip' looks like. You will notice it when your edge doesn't hit the stone, while you sharpen. It's basically an overgrind. It can be at the edge or above it - hell, it can be anywhere on the blade, depending how sloppy the person grinding it is.

5833

M


:plus1:

The key to being able to properly sharpen out a hole in the edge is that 1. The overgrind is not deeper than the center of the knife at the edge bevel, 2. It is smaller than your stone surface. It will still be weak, but it can be done.

But what Maksim was talking about was that the core steel matches the diagram, either because it took a hammer blow, or twisted, or whatever, and the cladding does not, because it was mashed around it and shaped to be the correct volume and design overall...meaning that as you try to sharpen the knife the core is not lined up! Can't fix that! That's crazy. You are basically selling a bent knife.

Marko Tsourkan
04-04-2012, 11:02 PM
Yes, the ones I have seen were straight over-grinds, many right at the heel.

Twisting might be the case if a blank was forged too thin at the edge and subsequently distorted upon quenching. Core steel will have more tension (and hardness) then low carbon cladding, so most twisting/warping are like to originate from core steel.


M

NO ChoP!
04-05-2012, 12:08 AM
I guess I'm familiar with what Marko speaks of. I too have seen overground heels, and really, it's not the end of the world...

As far as these holes, it hasn't happened to me, but if it does, I will be on this forum crying and whining, lol...

Dave Martell
04-05-2012, 12:17 AM
I guess I'm familiar with what Marko speaks of. I too have seen overground heels, and really, it's not the end of the world...

As far as these holes, it hasn't happened to me, but if it does, I will be on this forum crying and whining, lol...


If you do get ripped off with one of these knives then you'd have the right to cry & whine here.

maxim
04-05-2012, 03:52 AM
Yes, that is what a 'hole' or a 'dip' looks like. You will notice it when your edge doesn't hit the stone, while you sharpen. It's basically an overgrind. It can be at the edge or above it - hell, it can be anywhere on the blade, depending how sloppy the person grinding it is.

5833

M

Marko, no it doesn't look like that it is also bend out on other side :eyebrow: Really i dont know even how they do it.
It was hidden behind the edge this time :dontknow:
Dont get me wrong i liked my Moritakas a lot, but this issue just did, that i will never recommend them anymore

jaybett
04-05-2012, 05:07 AM
I am in no way defending Morataka.

The cleavers, I own are like guilty pleasures, they sharpen so easily, and cut really well. I've resigned myself, that one day I will uncover a defect in them. Until then I go on in blissful ignorance.

Jay

dav
04-05-2012, 05:24 AM
you lot are making me paranoid is this a campaign to discredit the japanese makers (watanabe mentioned also) ?? hehe. Anyway I've checked mine up to light, striaght edge etc... meticulously I've no experience with knives but own many antique and high quality tools so have a very keen eye etc... and they seem fine.

I can understand the appeal of "imperfections" adding appeal to the more rustic knives it does for me as for example if any of you have handled a Granfors Bruks axe (I have m any) you'll find a traitionally made Swedish axe of the highest order (forge marks etc... left with a polished cutting face) the "imperfections" add a real appeal to them but the forging/cutting edge is of the highest order so they are fully functional tools and I guess thats the problem with these knives if the defects affect performance/functionality then indeed there is a problem. What is the consensus regarding the quality of these knives when they produce a good one!

NO ChoP!
04-05-2012, 09:16 AM
Well dav, honestly I'm a big fan. I've always loved my moritaka yanagi, and my newer moritaka ks has quickly become my go to. It is a wonderful cutter. I suspect that as with other rustic style blades I've seen, the blade face is rather wavy, even diveted. Kurouchi finish masks a lot of imperfections. Maybe sometimes these blemishes that are otherwise considered character, run too close to the bevel and are causing the problem.

I sanded of the crappy finish on my tojiro ITK to reveal a roller coaster of waves on the blade face. It still works great, but it is easy to understand these problems after seeing this....

labor of love
04-05-2012, 09:17 AM
ive only sharpened my moritaka 4 times... if i do discover the defect, i will be here whining and complaining!

Duckfat
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
Yes sir I have but I haven't seen this KS clone yet so you might get lucky with the craps table. :)

Am I confused or aren't those KS clones I've seen getting fluffed up on other forums supposed to be hand made in the USA?
(Snort)


Dave

labor of love
04-05-2012, 10:23 AM
Not the moritaka. However, the U.S. distributer described the moritaka ks as having an excellent grind. Which leads me to believe maybe these issues were somehow addressed in house. I dunno.

Marko Tsourkan
04-05-2012, 10:32 AM
I don't think either of these post (mine included) were to discredit Japanese makers, but rather to point ongoing issues that many here have experienced.
As I pointed in one of my posts, these normally won't render your knife useless (unless it's a yanagi), but people should be aware of them. Some pay good money for knives and should expect a equivalent level of quality.

It's post about Moritaka knives, however I had similar experience with Watanabe, which I used to be a huge fan of. My last Watanabe group buy, out of ten knives, three or four had over-grinds (holes) near the heel, and were not as promised in thickness, fit and finish. These were custom order knives, mind you, at premium prices.

This is a public forum and many come here for an advice. So, let's judge all makers (me included) on their merits, not on personal preferences. Constructive criticism is good, believe it or not, as it forces people to make changes.

M

heirkb
04-05-2012, 10:38 AM
Not the moritaka. However, the U.S. distributer described the moritaka ks as having an excellent grind. Which leads me to believe maybe these issues were somehow addressed in house. I dunno.

Haven't all Moritakas always been advertised as excellent and inspected, etc.?

Sarge
04-05-2012, 11:01 AM
That is the advertisement; however obviously these issues still seem to occur. The one I had certainly had nothing like the photo describe so I won the crap shoot apparently.

dav
04-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Marko I didn't put a smiley after my comments but a hehe, which mean't that it was partly said in jest, although a little bit of me did wonder. I've not had a duff knife off of either maker (Only just getting into this whole thing) so obviously can't speak from experience. Also I guess for me and my very limited lack of culinary skills a knife would have to be pretty bad to make much difference, Doesn't a serrated edge cut well anyway:biggrin:

I guess its an interesting subject though as there is obviously a reason for the high number of defects of which a skilled smith(?) is either denying not recognising or accepting for whatever reason for a knife at a certain price point. And all from a country who were the first true adopters of TQM!

Marko Tsourkan
04-05-2012, 11:50 AM
I think we have to recognize that many Japanese makers are under pressure to produce in volume, in part because of the competition, and in part because of the wholesale system in Japan, where a large part of the final price is added by middlemen (wholesellers, vendors), so what a maker gets for his knives is just a fraction for what they sell.

Quality work takes time and unless one can get a fair price for it, one won't make any money doing it.

M

PS: I am sympathetic to all parties here.

dav
04-05-2012, 11:57 AM
Yes I appreciate that and it must be a hard thing to balance sometimes, but Moritaka does sell directly as does Takeda and Watanabe (amongst others) but seems to come in for the most criticism so there is obviously something going on. Maybe even though he is a small producer he might have overstretched operations maybe he needs to go for an eye test:biggrin:

wsfarrell
04-05-2012, 03:01 PM
FWIW, I have a recent KS that's been on the stones a couple times and it has no problems whatsoever. Magnificent knife!

(I have experienced a hole in a well-known maker's gyuto, so I know what it looks like. I was able to grind it out.)

bieniek
04-05-2012, 03:34 PM
I think the problem here is mistaken with uneven grind, Its not !
It is not like on Yanagis or wide bevel knives that have uneven grinds or low spots. That you can fix.
But problem with Moritake is more complex.
It is like the hard steel (hagane) on the knife is bend in and if you try flatten the bevel that spot get more steel removal and creates a big hole in the edge.

On Yanagis or other knives there are just low spots that can be fixed with flattening, and they are usually only on cladding.

I know exactly what youre saying Maxim, I have one of those on my Masamoto Yanagi.

Its only on the core steel, its like little concave on one side of it, and convex en the other. So when you sharpen in that situation you make overgrind yourself.
Unfortunately I havent found solution yet. I know its impossible to fix with a hammer. Or bendingstick

Eamon Burke
04-05-2012, 05:51 PM
You know, none of this means you shouldn't buy one. Just be ready to return it if its bad, most of them appear fine.

You can always do your own QC. I had a pocket knife like that...4 out of 5 closed by hitting the scales with thee edge. I still wanna buy another one.

labor of love
04-05-2012, 06:07 PM
The largest united states vendor of moritaka knives guaranteed me a full refund if I was unhappy for any reason with my purchase.

tk59
04-05-2012, 06:15 PM
The largest united states vendor of moritaka knives guaranteed me a full refund if I was unhappy for any reason with my purchase.Did he say you could return it several years down the road, when you discovered it?

labor of love
04-05-2012, 06:23 PM
I failed to ask him if I could return the knife three years later. Wouldn't hurt to ask I suppose.

add
04-05-2012, 06:23 PM
The largest united states vendor of moritaka knives guaranteed me a full refund if I was unhappy for any reason with my purchase.


Did he say you could return it several years down the road, when you discovered it?

* ZING *

labor of love
04-05-2012, 06:37 PM
Yeah. Pretty funny. I'm sure moritaka isn't the only company around that wouldnt allow the return of a 3 year old knife. Even if it has a defect.

add
04-05-2012, 06:56 PM
Sorry, was not trying to be flippant.

Just that tk59 makes a very good point-- that this knife apparently is prone to have an inherent defect that may not even show (at least to an unskilled eye) til down the road...

labor of love
04-05-2012, 06:58 PM
Like I said earlier, I'm no fan of moritaka. The ks clone was calling my name. I'm glad I got a chance to test out both the ks profile and augami super steel. I'll never purchase another moritaka. But I'm happy with this purchase.

Dave Martell
04-05-2012, 06:59 PM
I want to make something clear - in all cases that I've seen these knives are not repairable in any normal sense of the term. If a repair is possible it could only be made by grinding down the entire side(s) of the knife to match the lowest part of the overgrind as well as re-profiling. A repair of this size is nearly the same as grinding a knife by using the stock removal method - it's a major job. No one - I repeat - no one is doing this repair to a Moritaka using waterstones.

To clarify even further, the hole in the edge is sloppy grinding from the sides of the blade just above the edge (not from overgrinding the edge itself) that gets deeper and deeper as you remove steel from the edge while sharpening. This is not the same thing as seen on yanagis and other similar (to Moritaka) ground knives such as Takeda, etc. In fact the only knives that I've ever seen this specific problem on (in quantity) are Moritakas and (as a group) custom US kitchen knife makers who use 2" wide belts. This is not a common problem from Japanese makers.

labor of love
04-05-2012, 07:00 PM
I'm not offended at all! If the tables had been reversed I wouldve tried my best to make a snappy comeback!

El Pescador
04-05-2012, 07:05 PM
Like I said earlier, I'm no fan of moritaka. The ks clone was calling my name. I'm glad I got a chance to test out both the ks profile and augami super steel. I'll never purchase another moritaka. But I'm happy with this purchase.

I think the point is not every knife is messed up, but maybe 1 out of 7-10. There are plenty of people out there without defective Moritakas. But I don't like the odds of spending $200+ with a chance that it might be messed up down the road. I don't think it says a lot about a company that admits there is a problem but tells you to suck it up and deal with it if you knife's bad. I would rather do business with a company that strives to put out a perfect knife each and every time.

olpappy
04-05-2012, 07:43 PM
One of my Moritakas has a visible overgrind which is about midway up the blade in the kurouchi portion, thankfully it is not near the edge. There must be some particular step in their manufacturing process which is causing these problems, what I see is the biggest problem is that it seems like they were not willing to work with customers to identify and fix the problem, if they had they could have put this behind them. Which is kinda weird, because in other cases Moritaka has been very accomodating about taking custom orders etc and working with customers.

olpappy
04-05-2012, 07:44 PM
Anyone have an opinion as to whether these problems are just poor grinding, or perhaps related to the forging process? These knives are very thin, and to be forging the blades this thin perhaps it's more likely to have some warpage in heat treatment.

labor of love
04-05-2012, 07:57 PM
I think the point is not every knife is messed up, but maybe 1 out of 7-10. There are plenty of people out there without defective Moritakas. But I don't like the odds of spending $200+ with a chance that it might be messed up down the road. I don't think it says a lot about a company that admits there is a problem but tells you to suck it up and deal with it if you knife's bad. I would rather do business with a company that strives to put out a perfect knife each and every time.

Can't argue with that. Well said.

Marko Tsourkan
04-06-2012, 12:26 AM
Anyone have an opinion as to whether these problems are just poor grinding, or perhaps related to the forging process? These knives are very thin, and to be forging the blades this thin perhaps it's more likely to have some warpage in heat treatment.

That is probably true, if there are twists in the core steel - it is usually the difference in thickness of material during cooling than can result in a twist.

bieniek
04-06-2012, 01:44 AM
I think the point is not every knife is messed up, but maybe 1 out of 7-10. There are plenty of people out there without defective Moritakas. But I don't like the odds of spending $200+ with a chance that it might be messed up down the road. I don't think it says a lot about a company that admits there is a problem but tells you to suck it up and deal with it if you knife's bad. I would rather do business with a company that strives to put out a perfect knife each and every time.

I think the panic is because its warikomi style knife, not san mai.

Unfortunately you wont buy perfect knife for 200 bucks or close.
Im not sure now if i seen the same problem on Shuns santoku?
Poor craftsmanship? Maybe Moritaka uses 2" wide wheel/belt?

El Pescador
04-06-2012, 02:24 AM
I think the panic is because its warikomi style knife, not san mai.

Unfortunately you wont buy perfect knife for 200 bucks or close.
Im not sure now if i seen the same problem on Shuns santoku?
Poor craftsmanship? Maybe Moritaka uses 2" wide wheel/belt?

No, the "panic" is because these knives occasionally show up messed up. regardless of their manufacture.

tkern
04-06-2012, 03:09 AM
I use a Moritaka AS as part of my rotation in a professional kitchen for the last year or so. Its very thin but I have had no issues with the grind. I had a problem with the kurouchi coming off causing rust problems but after I forced a patina on to it I've had no problems. I sharpen my knives at least once every 2 weeks, the moritaka no exception. It's unfortunate that some people have had a problem, but personally I haven't seen it... and I beat the crap out of it. It was a relatively inexpensive knife that far exceeded what I thought it would do.

BobCat
04-06-2012, 09:06 AM
These dips can be concealed with finish, so one won't see them until a knife is on the stones.

What does this mean? Maybe I need to start a new thread about the finish on knives?

Marko Tsourkan
04-06-2012, 09:21 AM
It means you won't see it with a naked eye. You will see it when you put a knife on stones, as low spots will not touch a stone.

M

BobCat
04-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Is the finish some sort of coating?

mikemac
04-06-2012, 09:55 AM
Anyone have an opinion.........

Thin yes, but Takeda is equally on even thinner and we don't see as much verbage on Takeda problems (and some of my Takedas had swells and swalls in all 4 directions!)

In my humble opinion there are three problems with Moritaka blades....

First, in our community we have elevated the image and expectations of Moritaka knives above and beyond the reality...Moritaka is an artisan or craftsman in the genre of village blacksmith capabale of producing multiple styles of household, field and hunting knives plus farm implements and general hardware, quickly and at a reasonable price. When we confuse his product with that of the craftsman who only produces a highly refined kitchen knife aimed at the elite kitchens and chefs, we have created a problem.

Second, when these problems started to surface, the PR or customer service side of the equation failed. It's probably part language barrier, part cultural differences, part failure to understand 'the market', whatever, but certainly the way this issue has been addresed or not addressed would have to be called a failure.

Finally, there is a member of the community who early on became very involved with and passionate about, even enamoured with Moritaka. This individual is extremely articulate and verbose. If you ever have an opposing opinion this individual tends to rain down chapter and verse detailing both why you are wrong and why you are an idiot. And this individual believes there is no problem with Moritaka blades, or no problem that someone of his own skill level can't easily fix. And if you have a differeing opinion...chapter & verse on your head.

So anyway, thats my opinion on the problem with Moritaka blades....they seem to cut well, many owners love them, some have a flaw - maybe - or not. All of that "is what it is". But it's hard to go 90 days without the issue of Moritaka blades popping up, so there obviously is an issue...a contentious one!

Marko Tsourkan
04-06-2012, 10:04 AM
No, it's a scratch finish applied by sandpaper, belt, etc.

If you use some sort of an object with a give to finish your blade with, like a rubber block, you can hit these low spots with your abrasives, blending them in your finish - satin finish for the most part. However, when you put your knife on a stone, you won't hit the low spots, and you will see them appear as you remove metal around them, as they are below a surface.

Folks frequently see dips when flattening yanagi bevel, and less so on a gyuto, unless a dip extends all the way to the edge.

M

Andrew H
04-06-2012, 10:27 AM
I don't think any knife should be sent out having this problem, but comparing Moritaka knivevs to Takeda isn't really fair. Takedas are 2x the price.

mhlee
04-06-2012, 01:46 PM
No, it's a scratch finish applied by sandpaper, belt, etc.

If you use some sort of an object with a give to finish your blade with, like a rubber block, you can hit these low spots with your abrasives, blending them in your finish - satin finish for the most part. However, when you put your knife on a stone, you won't hit the low spots, and you will see them appear as you remove metal around them, as they are below a surface.

Folks frequently see dips when flattening yanagi bevel, and less so on a gyuto, unless a dip extends all the way to the edge.

M

I've never purchased a Moritaka for the specific reasons identified in this thread. For $200, the chance of getting a seriously overground knife is unacceptable, whereas, for around that price range, I can get a knife that has minor, if essentially, no issues.

I absolutely get what you're saying Marko. I finally learned this firsthand, by watching others and personally learning. Some of these low spots can't even be felt by hand.

I thought my 240 Kanehisa Yanagiba was even. Nope. There are two low spots that are now clearly visible since I started sharpening them correctly and using a flat stone. And Marko's explanation makes perfect sense. If you're using something flexible or uneven to sharpen, it will flex or bend around these low spots. If you use something hard and flat, these low spots will not be hit, and then you'll see them.

I think the most worrisome thing is that there may be a lot of Moritaka owners that haven't yet even discovered these low spots because they haven't reached them, don't sharpen often enough or well enough.

jaybett
04-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't think Moritaka understood the early complaints. The idea that that there can be a hidden hole on a knife is confusing. When they finally understood the complaint, I believe they acknowledged that it existed, but it was the price to pay in order to keep costs down.

A forum member who was living in Japan made a comment, that people who worked in harsh environments wanted cheap knives and were willing to work with knives that had issues, because they went through them so fast.

Part of the problem is the main seller of Moritaka knives, hasn't done a good job of addressing the issues or what he will do if they crop up. The problem has been compounded by Moritakas un-official spokesperson, who dismisses criticisms as being due to a lack of skill in sharpening or as he likes to put it, a lack of precision.

Jay

mhlee
04-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Part of the problem is the main seller of Moritaka knives, hasn't done a good job of addressing the issues or what he will do if they crop up. The problem has been compounded by Moritakas un-official spokesperson, who dismisses criticisms as being due to a lack of skill in sharpening or as he likes to put it, a lack of precision.

Jay

IMHO, that's not part of the problem, that's probably the main problem. Moritaka is a Japanese manufacturer. For most people who buy them in the US, they should be able to turn to the US retailer(s) that they bought those knives to address the issues. (Generally, under products liability law, the retailer is at least partially responsible for any defects in the goods it sells; in some states, they're equally responsible as the manufacturer. If a retailer says they're not responsible for defective items they sell, they're making excuses and trying to avoid liability.)

With respect to the last comment, if that's true, that's BS. That's like saying a car that's a lemon is a lemon because the owner can't take care of it.

don
04-06-2012, 05:37 PM
I don't think Moritaka understood the early complaints. The idea that that there can be a hidden hole on a knife is confusing. When they finally understood the complaint, I believe they acknowledged that it existed, but it was the price to pay in order to keep costs down.

A forum member who was living in Japan made a comment, that people who worked in harsh environments wanted cheap knives and were willing to work with knives that had issues, because they went through them so fast.

If Moritaka's were <$60, then this might acceptable. But for a $200 knife? That's asking a lot.

ecchef
04-06-2012, 06:32 PM
From my observations, people that work in harsh environments and want cheap knives usually choose a stainless mass produced knife, produced and marketed specifically as, shall I say, 'other than heirloom quality'. Even in Japan.

NO ChoP!
04-07-2012, 11:59 AM
Has anyone actually tried to return a problem knife to cktg and been rejected?

Salty dog
04-07-2012, 05:43 PM
It's a sour grape thread. It's been going on since these forums started.

ecchef
04-07-2012, 06:47 PM
I wouldn't classify this as "sour grapes" at all. A moritaka is generally available to anyone.

I actually sent one back directly to Moritaka. I got a scolding letter and a replacement knife with an even bigger 'hole'. :dontknow:

steeley
04-07-2012, 08:45 PM
Well my thought is this thread has
A: the Fonz
B: A drunk cat

http://www.limepic.com/img/xiu0F.png

http://www.limepic.com/img/2C9VL.jpg


thank you for your time.

Eamon Burke
04-07-2012, 09:02 PM
Did you just 50 Hitler Post us?

I have to say, this was the most productive Moritaka thread yet.

EdipisReks
04-07-2012, 11:13 PM
It's a sour grape thread. It's been going on since these forums started.

i don't see how a thread about an easy to buy and inexpensive knife could be "sour grapes."

Duckfat
04-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Reminds me of the Taurus handgun...guy tells me they send back two Taurus for one of every other gun combined...then goes on to tell me 75% of what they sell is Taurus!!!! Hello?

Grooooan. I've been down that road with Taurus on a Ti CC revolver. It started just skipping clyinders.
One trip down that road was enough.

Dave

mhlee
04-20-2012, 06:46 PM
I don't think this is a sour grapes thread at all. In fact, I refused to buy a Moritaka after reading so many complaints about these knives.

There's always a certain amount of "buyer beware" when purchasing anything. But unlike a, for example, a badly cooked dish that you can return directly to the restaurant, it's not so easy to do so with something that's made in a different country and where you may not be able to get a good domestic response. These are all important factors to consider when buying anything. And, these issues absolutely devalue what you bought if you ever intend to sell it.