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brainsausage
04-13-2012, 12:36 AM
So, I'm currently in the market for a new slicer. I've been playing with my 270 Gesshin Ino Hon-Kasumi gyuto for the last few months. Great knife. Love the white #2. But I picked up my CCK the other day and realized that my heart belongs to cleavers. That being said- I'd love some suggestions. I've only ever played with the lower end of the Chinese cleaver spectrum, and I'd like to upgrade. My preferences are as follows:

220-240 mm
400 grams or less
Thicker spine towards choil, thiiiin blade.
$500 budget

I keep eyeballing takeda's stuff. Especially the menkiri, but I don't have a lot of experience with aogami. I like my Mioroshi deba by him, but I barely ever use it, and have never sharpened. So I'd love some steel advice as well. I checked out Andy's original cleaver lineup on Knifeforums again today(for about the 20th time!) and my only concern is that the review is now six years old, and I wonder how well some of those makers are still performing. As I said- any advice would be greatly welcomed:)

labor of love
04-13-2012, 01:55 AM
im close to pulling the trigger on an ashi ginga cleaver swedish steel that jon has at jki. I think its around 225mm....if you want a white 2 steel check out bluewayjapan @ebay. i think they have the same cleaver in carbon there. both of these cleavers have great profiles which is why im attracted to them in the first place. Takedas are out of my price range as far as cleavers are concerned. however, i do enjoy augami steel.

brainsausage
04-13-2012, 02:40 AM
Takeda attracts me do to the thinness and light weight. I really would prefer a pretty thick spine that tapers pretty quickly down to a stupid thin edge. My biggest gripe with CCK(besides the weird steel), is how thin the spines are. Nothing to grab, and it punishes my knife callous. But I do enjoy the overall blade geometry. Gentle rock- to flat belly. And wonderfully thin. The ginga's seem a little heavy and thick honestly. And I really don't care for stainless. Feels awful. No offense to anyone who might feel otherwise. I like how responsive the white#2 is to sharpen, but as I said I've no experience with the aogami...

labor of love
04-13-2012, 02:53 AM
good swedish steel is the exception to the rule when it comes to stainless. as far as number 6 sized cleavers go the gingas are on the light side actually...just look at the sujimotos, theyre about 100 grams heavier depending on which website youre looking at. Takedas can take an edge and hold it for some time...cant help you with thick spine recommendations that taper. good luck!

jaybett
04-13-2012, 06:48 AM
The best knife I've seen for how the spine tapers from the choil to the tip is Sugimoto #6. Enough of the spine is left at the choil so it easy to grab. With a comfortable handle, the Sugimoto feels very natural in the hand. After that the Tadatasuna has a thicker spine that quickly thins out. I've got the white steel version, which they unfortunately stopped production. They do have an inox version. A forum member owns one. Hopefully he will post and let us know about the spine. The same forum member, I can't recall his name, but as soon as a I post it will come to me, owns a CCK. He picked up the Swedish steel Mizuno and says that it's as thin or thinner then his CCK. If I ever pick up another cleaver it will be that one.

The Takeda probably meets most of your requirements. It is a light knife, for a cleaver, thin, and takes a very keen edge. The spine is also thin. Takeda's have a rustic finish. On mine the heel curves up, quite a ways. Most Takedas have have some unique about them. The hammer marks in sides of the blade, can be distracting at times, rubbing over the knuckles, as one chops. The cost of a Takeda, has risen dramatically over the years. Andy got his Takeda for around $250, now their selling for over $500. Some people will say they are worth every penny.

I'd run your idea by Jon at JKI. He has a lot going on behind the scenes. He might have already found a maker that can meet your needs.

As I mentioned earlier if I were to buy again. It would be the Mizuno Swedish steel model, but I'd dress it up with a handle. Andy has become an accomplished handle maker. I was talking to him about getting a handle done, instead he sold me one of his knives.

Jay

RobinW
04-13-2012, 09:37 AM
First, you have read Andys recap, right?

Tadatsuna comes out really nice in Andys reviews, and if you can convince him, Butch harner makes a mean cleaver. Although i am not sure it's within the reach of your budget.

labor of love
04-13-2012, 10:22 AM
Tadatsunas website is down last I checked. Anybody know where you can order tad cleaver these days?

brainsausage
04-13-2012, 11:10 AM
Butch is about double what I'm looking to spend unfortunately. I hadn't really thought of contacting John. I purchased my Ino from him, and he was incredibly helpful. I was checking out the Sugimotos last night, but they seem a little on the heavy side. The tads are a nice option, I just checked out an old post on Knifeforums, and they appear to match a lot of my needs. That menkiri is still whispering in my ear though...

mikemac
04-13-2012, 11:48 AM
RE: Tad's....check with A-Frames. He's out of stock on Tad's, but he may know what the story is. Menkiri doesn't get talked about much, but make sure you know - it's NOT a chuka...more shaped like an extra long nakiri with a super flat edge. I know somebody in the past (maybe Andy?) had one reprofiled more like a chuka, and it still ended up on the B-S-T forum. As for takeda in general, my Takeda (now sold) was one of the earlier versions, and was the best quality of the Takedas I owned. Three subsequent Takedas all had waves from choil to tip and spine to edge...all at the same time.
PM Sent

Lefty
04-13-2012, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure what Pierre charges for a cleaver, but I'm pretty sure there's an O1 available from him.

malacara
04-13-2012, 01:34 PM
The best knife I've seen for how the spine tapers from the choil to the tip is Sugimoto #6. Enough of the spine is left at the choil so it easy to grab. With a comfortable handle, the Sugimoto feels very natural in the hand. After that the Tadatasuna has a thicker spine that quickly thins out. I've got the white steel version, which they unfortunately stopped production. They do have an inox version. A forum member owns one. Hopefully he will post and let us know about the spine. The same forum member, I can't recall his name, but as soon as a I post it will come to me, owns a CCK. He picked up the Swedish steel Mizuno and says that it's as thin or thinner then his CCK. If I ever pick up another cleaver it will be that one.


I think itīs me the one you are refering to :) I have already posted pics of my Inox Tadatsuna here http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5319-Discourse-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post/page5 where the spine and the thinness can be seen. Basically,As you can see, the spine is aproximately 2mm all the way long. I have also posted pics of the stainless mizuno profile where its thinness can be also appreciated (in spite of the awful pictures) Itīs not as thin the my CCK 1103 but it is VERY VERY close. They are both incredible cleavers, pieces of art if you ask me but both over 400 grams.

Regards

jaybett
04-13-2012, 03:17 PM
I think itīs me the one you are refering to :) I have already posted pics of my Inox Tadatsuna here http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5319-Discourse-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post/page5 where the spine and the thinness can be seen. Basically,As you can see, the spine is aproximately 2mm all the way long. I have also posted pics of the stainless mizuno profile where its thinness can be also appreciated (in spite of the awful pictures) Itīs not as thin the my CCK 1103 but it is VERY VERY close. They are both incredible cleavers, pieces of art if you ask me but both over 400 grams.

Regards

I was referring to you. I missed your post with the pictures. A belated thanks for posting them. I've been curious about the spine on the Tad Inox.

Jay

jaybett
04-13-2012, 03:50 PM
Butch is about double what I'm looking to spend unfortunately. I hadn't really thought of contacting John. I purchased my Ino from him, and he was incredibly helpful. I was checking out the Sugimotos last night, but they seem a little on the heavy side. The tads are a nice option, I just checked out an old post on Knifeforums, and they appear to match a lot of my needs. That menkiri is still whispering in my ear though...

The Sugimoto is as close to ideal, as far as size and weight. It's big enough to provide the benefits of a full size cleaver, but small enough to be agile. There is a distinct distal taper with the tip being distinctly thinner then the heel. Fit and finish is interesting. On all the areas that matter, rounding the spine, choil, are nicely done. Their are noticeable scratches on the hamon of the knife.

I really like how the Sugimoto performs. Andy has spoken positively as his Sugimotos. There is a member who had a negative experience. From what I can tell, he got a knife, where the bevel had been reground by the former owner, to an obtuse angle. There was all sorts of issues getting the knife back into shape. He is not shy about venting his frustrations or sharing his opinion that Sugimoto sucks. I never was able to understand, how those issues were Sugimoto's fault.

The Tadatsuna that I own, is a really nice knife, but the handle leaves a lot to be desired. Either it will need to be replaced, or at least reshaped a little, by sanding.

Jay

chazmtb
04-13-2012, 04:31 PM
No one has talked about the Mizuno aogami. I don't own one but love CDogs vid on YouTube. I have the suien vg and I love it.

malacara
04-13-2012, 05:11 PM
No one has talked about the Mizuno aogami. I don't own one but love CDogs vid on YouTube. I have the suien vg and I love it.

Are you sure it is aogami? I thought the only Aogami cleavers on the market were the Takedas or the Moritakas. According to Japanesechefknives webpage is made from Virgin carbon (donīt really know what that means by the way)

cnochef
04-13-2012, 05:41 PM
+ on Takeda, based on my experience with his nakiri. The finish really protects the knife and looks super cool, they are nice and thin and AS steel keeps an edge forever. In over 6 months of heavy use, I've only had to strop it a couple of times to touch it up. Prices are admittedly a bit steep now, but I will bet that the amount you will use it will make it seem worth every penny!

brainsausage
04-13-2012, 06:32 PM
The Sugimoto is as close to ideal, as far as size and weight. It's big enough to provide the benefits of a full size cleaver, but small enough to be agile. There is a distinct distal taper with the tip being distinctly thinner then the heel. Fit and finish is interesting. On all the areas that matter, rounding the spine, choil, are nicely done. Their are noticeable scratches on the hamon of the knife.

I really like how the Sugimoto performs. Andy has spoken positively as his Sugimotos. There is a member who had a negative experience. From what I can tell, he got a knife, where the bevel had been reground by the former owner, to an obtuse angle. There was all sorts of issues getting the knife back into shape. He is not shy about venting his frustrations or sharing his opinion that Sugimoto sucks. I never was able to understand, how those issues were Sugimoto's fault.

The Tadatsuna that I own, is a really nice knife, but the handle leaves a lot to be desired. Either it will need to be replaced, or at least reshaped a little, by sanding.

Jay

That's one thing that turns me off about the Tads- their handles. Admittedly- I've never used the scaled handle style on a chuka. But I find the handles on the CCK's very comfy. Although I'm pretty interested in using an octagonal wa style on a chuka, as it's my favorite handle style thus far. Another reason I'm interested in the Takeda's... Moritakas are the only other chukas I've seen with wa's and it seems they're becoming a little less reliable lately... How much does your Sugimoto weigh btw? I think I'd prefer something that's about 450 grams or less. I have crunchy wrists due to years of kitchen abuse(along with various other hi-jinks), and a lighter cleaver means a little less wear and tear...

labor of love
04-13-2012, 07:01 PM
I wish zakuri made cleavers.

brainsausage
04-13-2012, 08:59 PM
I wish zakuri made cleavers.

I'm not familiar with zakuri... What do you like about their knives?

labor of love
04-13-2012, 09:24 PM
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri.html theyre kurouchi finish is nicer than moritakas. i like theyre handles more as well. Takeda cleavers are over my budget and many people have had grind problems with moritakas. that being said i have a moritaka gyuto that i like quite a bit. zakuri knives are priced the same if not sometimes cheaper than moritaka also. it would be cool to have more to choose from in the blue steel/augami steel cleaver options besides moritaka and takeda is what im trying to say basically.

labor of love
04-13-2012, 09:59 PM
good swedish steel is the exception to the rule when it comes to stainless. as far as number 6 sized cleavers go the gingas are on the light side actually...just look at the sujimotos, theyre about 100 grams heavier depending on which website youre looking at. Takedas can take an edge and hold it for some time...cant help you with thick spine recommendations that taper. good luck!

I just wanted to correct myself here the sujimoto #6 is listed at 448 grams. I was looking at the #7 cleaver at jck which is listed at 500+ grams

Andy777
04-14-2012, 02:41 AM
There's been some good advice in this thread. But you're not going to find a 22x11 cleaver under 400g, I think the closest I've seen is the Devin Thomas one and I think my Masahiro M3 came in slightly under mostly because the handle was very small and light. Most of the thin ones fall between 400-450g. You need to narrow your scope a bit, because a sub 400g lazer with a fat spine just isn't going to happen. If you want something super comfy with a fat rounded spine that tapers nicely and a handle that won't scream to be replaced, the Sugimoto #6 is a nice option. If you want a light laser the Takeda is probably the best I've seen. I've heard good things about that Mizuno Swedish steel model, in fact I'd better stop thinking about it. :wink:

The problem with a good majority of the high end cleavers is they have piss poor handles that require replacing. You need to be really dedicated to shell out $400 for a knife that will have a poor handle with shrunken scales and gaps. That Mizuno Swedish is sounding pretty badass and those pics Malacara posted looke really good. If it were me I'd go with one of those and have a custom handle put on it, you'd still be under your $500 budget. Honestly, all the high end cleavers have good things about them. They just need some tweeking which can be a pain for such an expensive knife. I'd just look at all the ones out there and see which one speaks to you, if it has a crappy handle just budget for that and someone on the forum can hook you up with a custom.

One last thing semi off topic, I am disturbed by the amount of blade curvature I'm seeing on the Suiens coming out now. I personally prefer a flatter edge, so that's another thing to look out for.

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 03:45 AM
There's been some good advice in this thread. But you're not going to find a 22x11 cleaver under 400g, I think the closest I've seen is the Devin Thomas one and I think my Masahiro M3 came in slightly under mostly because the handle was very small and light. Most of the thin ones fall between 400-450g. You need to narrow your scope a bit, because a sub 400g lazer with a fat spine just isn't going to happen. If you want something super comfy with a fat rounded spine that tapers nicely and a handle that won't scream to be replaced, the Sugimoto #6 is a nice option. If you want a light laser the Takeda is probably the best I've seen. I've heard good things about that Mizuno Swedish steel model, in fact I'd better stop thinking about it. :wink:

The problem with a good majority of the high end cleavers is they have piss poor handles that require replacing. You need to be really dedicated to shell out $400 for a knife that will have a poor handle with shrunken scales and gaps. That Mizuno Swedish is sounding pretty badass and those pics Malacara posted looke really good. If it were me I'd go with one of those and have a custom handle put on it, you'd still be under your $500 budget. Honestly, all the high end cleavers have good things about them. They just need some tweeking which can be a pain for such an expensive knife. I'd just look at all the ones out there and see which one speaks to you, if it has a crappy handle just budget for that and someone on the forum can hook you up with a custom.

One last thing semi off topic, I am disturbed by the amount of blade curvature I'm seeing on the Suiens coming out now. I personally prefer a flatter edge, so that's another thing to look out for.

Thanks for the input Andy. I'm leaning more and more towards a 210-220 Takeda. As I said, I really enjoy the octagonal wa handles, although I've yet to use one on a chuka. In your review over on Knifeforums you gave takeda's menkiri and chuka pretty high marks. Granted they're much more expensive now, but do you still think they hold up? And what was your experience with the wa versus traditional Chinese style round handles?
Btw- I just wanted to say thank you also for all the reviews you did over on Knifeforums. Very informative. You single handedly kick-started my cleaver addiction:)

Andy777
04-14-2012, 03:49 AM
Oh and one other thing regarding the menkiribocho. It's a great knife as are all Takedas, but it's probably over priced now IMHO. My big issue with it was that no matter how much I wanted it to be a cleaver it never was, it's a wierd nakiri cleaver thingamabob as has been mentioned. Plus it has a dead flat edge which will need at least a little sweep to it. The dead flat edge is way too jarring with the board. It did have a super fat spine, like maybe 4-5mm or more, and was light. Theoretically if you wanted a 22x8-9cm cleaver, and could find a good deal on a menkiri in that size, and it had some edge or you felt confident to add some, it could fit the bill.

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 03:50 AM
+1 on the flatter edge btw. And speaking of custom work... I figure this is as good a place as any to fish around for leads on custom chuka sayas... Anyone have any suggestions? Or mayhaps I should start a new thread?

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 03:56 AM
Just to clarify- I was referring to the flatter edge on the suien. I think we posted simultaneously... I've also heard others mention they had to work on the menkiri a little to get more suited to anything besides cutting noodles.

Andy777
04-14-2012, 04:08 AM
Thanks for the input Andy. I'm leaning more and more towards a 210-220 Takeda. As I said, I really enjoy the octagonal wa handles, although I've yet to use one on a chuka. In your review over on Knifeforums you gave takeda's menkiri and chuka pretty high marks. Granted they're much more expensive now, but do you still think they hold up? And what was your experience with the wa versus traditional Chinese style round handles?
Btw- I just wanted to say thank you also for all the reviews you did over on Knifeforums. Very informative. You single handedly kick-started my cleaver addiction:)

I really thought the menkiri was a killer knife, but I just personally slightly prefer a more standard cleaver shape. I never planned on selling it off, but when I started adopting the more minimalist approach to my collection it fell on the chopping block. I have been and will always be a huge Takeda fanboy. :D It's hard to say how "worth it" they are now that the price has increased 150% since I bought mine. I sold my Takeda a few weeks ago and I do miss it, maybe more than any cleaver I've sold in recent memory. Like I said earlier, my personal favorite route is to pick a blade that speaks to you and then add a custom handle. I do like wa handles on cleavers, but I think I prefer in the end a shorter handle. I do love the CCK handles but I like a slightly fatter version like the original on the Masahiro M3 (sans the horrible finish and huge gaps :) )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/M3.jpg

I made something similar (round and bulbous) for my Tatatsuna

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/Tadatsuna.jpg

But it's also hard to beat the style that the late great Fish perfected:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/KKF1.jpg

If the Takedas speak to you then go for it, you can always add a larger / smaller / shorter / fatter octagon handle or even a round one later more like the CCK style if you want.

Andy777
04-14-2012, 04:11 AM
+1 on the flatter edge btw. And speaking of custom work... I figure this is as good a place as any to fish around for leads on custom chuka sayas... Anyone have any suggestions? Or mayhaps I should start a new thread?


Just to clarify- I was referring to the flatter edge on the suien. I think we posted simultaneously... I've also heard others mention they had to work on the menkiri a little to get more suited to anything besides cutting noodles.

I haven't heard of anyone who does chuka sayas, that doesn't mean someone wouldn't be willing though. And yes, the menkiri will need some work, but it is a killer knife, just different is all.

The Edge
04-14-2012, 04:20 AM
If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure Eamon Burke can make chuka sayas.

jonnachang
04-14-2012, 08:02 AM
I have sayas for my Takeda and Moritaka from Marko .

Dusty
04-14-2012, 10:05 AM
For what it's worth, bluewayjapan recently had a ashi hamono carbon cleaver that was super thin, 1.8 mm at the handle. Thinner than the standard ginga ones. The ginga is 420 gms, so this would have been under 400 i think. perhaps he can get another one like that...

sw2geeks
04-14-2012, 01:45 PM
I have around 10 cleavers, but my current go-to chukabocho is a Moritaka I had made last year. There are some pictures of it in use in my corned beef hash post (http://www.dfw.com/2012/03/20/595242/corned-beef-hash.html).
This is my second Moritaka, Andy helped talked me through the process of having one custom made back in 2006-7? when I had my first chukabocho made.

The nice thing about having one made is that you can get exactly what you want in size, shape, spine and edge thickness.
I went all out for my ultimate chukabocho this last time.

http://media.dfw.com/smedia/2012/03/20/11/54/BrFPx.St.117.jpg

I had them make this one 22x11cm, Aogami Super Steel edge going into a polished stainless steel damascus for the first third of the blade. I had them finish it off with a hammer-patterned Kurouchi finish. I also had them put a very slight curve to the edge, thin edge going into a thicker spine. All of this for $550, I think having them put a Octagonal handle pushed it over the $500 mark that you are shooting for. I could of knocked another $100 off this same chukabocho if I went with Blue #2 instead of Aogami.

kalaeb
04-14-2012, 02:03 PM
OT: Steve, I don't know how I missed that corned beef post, but it was awesome. Great pics. Thanks

bieniek
04-14-2012, 02:37 PM
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/carl00s/100_3804.jpg

I made sheath for myself along with the handle.

I like octagonal but I made this one little thinner and it is really comfortable

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m310/carl00s/100_3682.jpg

What I mean, buy a cheap soft piece of wood, and first carvve something that looks like handle, and check what size you like exactly. I wouldnt like to have it too big on a cleaver, so that the grip isnt shure, and too small can be dangerous to control, its a big blade at the end of the day :)

malacara
04-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I wish zakuri made cleavers.

Hummm, that could be really great


it would be cool to have more to choose from in the blue steel/augami steel cleaver options besides moritaka and takeda is what im trying to say basically :plus1:

sw2geeks
04-14-2012, 08:58 PM
OT: Steve, I don't know how I missed that corned beef post, but it was awesome. Great pics. Thanks

Thanks Kalaeb

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 09:57 PM
I really thought the menkiri was a killer knife, but I just personally slightly prefer a more standard cleaver shape. I never planned on selling it off, but when I started adopting the more minimalist approach to my collection it fell on the chopping block. I have been and will always be a huge Takeda fanboy. :D It's hard to say how "worth it" they are now that the price has increased 150% since I bought mine. I sold my Takeda a few weeks ago and I do miss it, maybe more than any cleaver I've sold in recent memory. Like I said earlier, my personal favorite route is to pick a blade that speaks to you and then add a custom handle. I do like wa handles on cleavers, but I think I prefer in the end a shorter handle. I do love the CCK handles but I like a slightly fatter version like the original on the Masahiro M3 (sans the horrible finish and huge gaps :) )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/M3.jpg

I made something similar (round and bulbous) for my Tatatsuna

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/Tadatsuna.jpg

But it's also hard to beat the style that the late great Fish perfected:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/andreslynn/KKF1.jpg

If the Takedas speak to you then go for it, you can always add a larger / smaller / shorter / fatter octagon handle or even a round one later more like the CCK style if you want.

When you say 'late great fish' Andy- does that mean he's passed on? I was never a contributor to knifeforums, but I spent over a year and a half observing and absorbing the posts there, and he seemed like a pretty awesome guy. I'd be a little sad to hear he wasn't still cutting...

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 09:59 PM
Hummm, that could be really great

:plus1:

I'd like to see more white and aogami in general. It seems there's a glut of unnamed and 'VC' cleavers out there...

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 10:04 PM
I have sayas for my Takeda and Moritaka from Marko .

Contact info?

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 10:05 PM
If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure Eamon Burke can make chuka sayas.

Contact info?

Deckhand
04-14-2012, 10:08 PM
Contact info?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5837-Sheaths-Made-to-Order

The Edge
04-14-2012, 10:09 PM
Contact info?

He is listed as a vendor for this site under "Burke Cutlery Services"

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Thank you both:)

Pensacola Tiger
04-14-2012, 11:02 PM
When you say 'late great fish' Andy- does that mean he's passed on? I was never a contributor to knifeforums, but I spent over a year and a half observing and absorbing the posts there, and he seemed like a pretty awesome guy. I'd be a little sad to hear he wasn't still cutting...

Sadly, yes, Greg "Fish" Crowton is no longer with us.

If you haven't found the thread illustrating his work here on KKF, here's a link:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/669-Fish-n-Poi-The-Original-Rehandle-King

Rick

brainsausage
04-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Sadly, yes, Greg "Fish" Crowton is no longer with us.

If you haven't found the thread illustrating his work here on KKF, here's a link:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/669-Fish-n-Poi-The-Original-Rehandle-King
Rick
this saddens me greatly.

Crothcipt
04-14-2012, 11:52 PM
Thx for posting that thread. It saddens me and inspires me to no limits.

brainsausage
04-15-2012, 12:18 AM
Thx for posting that thread. It saddens me and inspires me to no limits.

+1

JKerr
04-15-2012, 05:04 AM
I just want to add a +1 for the sugimoto #6. Comfy handle, awesome profile and a fat spine at the handle w/ full taper; just an all round awesome knife. It's actually been a while since I used mine what with the new job and all my new acquisitions wanting attention, but this thread reminded me how much I love using it. Put it to the stones this morning, haven't cut anything with it yet though.

I'd like to add that it's actually lighter than a lot of sites suggest. I assume due to the hand forging that there is some variation between cleavers, but mine was only 403g out of the box and what with subsequent sharpening sessions is now around 397g. Despite it's lightness though, it's certainly not a laser, still a pretty solid and versatile blade, I've heard others say it's more of a #7 lite. The only other full size cleaver I've used is the Hattori FH which is about 518g from memory and the geometry is completely different. The hattori is super thin behind the edge and one of the best knives I've used for onions, carrots etc.. but, personally, I'd never use it for breaking down birds, which I'd be more than happy to take my Sugimoto to.

FWIW, here's a link to when I first got my Sugimoto: http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10766-Sugimoto-6-profile&highlight=sugimoto. Like I said, there is probably variation between each Sugimoto #6, but it gives people a better idea of what to expect.

Aaargh, all the cleaver talk has me itching. I've always been curious about the mizuno stainless....:knife:

Cheers,
Josh

labor of love
04-22-2012, 11:45 AM
JKerr I wonder if youve ever heard anything about the stainless Sujimoto cleaver? Its 195mm long and much cheaper at cktg. These days Im pretty partial to stainless semi stainless stuff which is really one of the only reasons I havent already picked up a Sujimoto #6. Also I wonder how different the Mizuno stainless can be from a Konosuke stainless or Gesshin stainless(all 3 swedish steel). One of the reasons I mention this is because the Konosuke and the Gesshin are both cheaper and Ive read not so great things about the Mizuno Cleaver handle.

JKerr
04-22-2012, 01:16 PM
I haven't used the sugimoto stainless (CM) cleaver myself, though I have a sugimoto gyuto made from the CM steel which I'm a fan of; somewhat similar to (good) VG-10 but able to be pushed that little bit further before becoming "chippy" imo, retention is pretty good too. I had thought about picking up the same cleaver a while back for sh*ts and giggles, but figured I'd just never use a small cleaver. F+F wise I've been happy with all my sugimoto products; good edge ootb, handles well fitted, somewhat rounded spine and choil etc. Like I said though, I haven't used the CM cleaver before, so it could be different. -dg over at Foodie Forums has one and has very positive things to say about it with exception of the faux kasumi type pattern just above the edge, which can be easily smoothed out apparently. I'm not sure why it's so cheap for a cleaver, even if it is small. Sugimoto have a bizarre pricing structure though. From experience, I think they're pretty cheap in regards to knives they market for the home user (21cm CM wa gyuto $80, small CM cleaver $125, super french 21cm gyuto $75) compared to the larger sizes which start to take huge jumps in price, example with the CM gyutos again, if we're using sugimotos RRP a 21cm gyuto is about $80, the 24cm is $210 and the 27cm is $315. The 21 has a d shaped handle with plastic ferrule while the others have octagonal with horn but still, big difference. High price for low demand perhaps? I'd assume they probably make a lot of the CM cleavers what with the small "home" size, stainless and cleavers being their specialty. Might be cladded too, the rest of the CM stuff is mono-steel.

In regards to the Kono, Mizuno and Gesshin, I haven't used any of them so I can't really comment. Regarding the Mizuno though, if you were interested in that particular brand but had reservations about the F+F I'd just contact Koki at JCK before hand and voice your concerns, I'm sure he'd be able to find a solution, his customer service is awesome.

Cheers,
Josh

Oh, I should add, the CM stuff is completely stainless, in the sense that it wont discolour at all compared to semi stainless stuff like VG-10, TKC stuff etc.

labor of love
04-22-2012, 01:40 PM
thanks for the reply! you really helped me out a bit. Do you know of any posts dg may have made about the stainless sujimoto? Foodieforums search engine sux! I will try and look for this writing. Ive noticed Sujimotos pricing in the past, very strange indeed.

JKerr
04-25-2012, 12:57 AM
Sorry for the late reply, busy week.

Here's a couple of threads -dg has posted in with regards to the CM cleaver. I have linked directly to his posts, figured it'd be easy enough to find, plus they're pretty good threads anyway.

http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?11316-Sugimoto-steel&highlight=sugimoto
http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?9641-Cleavers.-What-to-do&highlight=sugimoto
http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?9361-Good-stainless-chinese-cleavers-that-won-t-break-the-bank&highlight=sugimoto

Cheers,
Josh

labor of love
04-25-2012, 03:23 AM
thanks for the good reads. yeah maybe the sujimoto stainless cleaver is too short. I dug up an old thread andy wrote about his tojiro cleaver w/a metal handle. the 921 is the western handle version and its for sale at blueway. thats my front runner. I just have to pass on the suien vc due to its curved profile. the sujimoto steel sounds intriguing but what can you compare it too performance wise? I saw where somebody mentioned an aritsugu cleaver. That sounds interesting too.

Andy777
04-26-2012, 01:37 AM
I honestly LOVED my tojiro pro cleaver others who have bought it were less keen on it. I think not all pf them have the same grind mine was fantastic but i heard a guy who said his ws too thick i'd make sure wherever you bought yours has a return policy if you get it and it's too thick send it back right away. I personally thought the steel handle was awesome but that's a matter of personal preference.

sudsy9977
04-26-2012, 01:45 AM
you could always do it up big like i did and score a carter cleaver!.....ryan



pic stolen from curtis

brainsausage
04-26-2012, 03:05 AM
you could always do it up big like i did and score a carter cleaver!.....ryan



pic stolen from curtis
Wait- wha?!??

labor of love
04-27-2012, 11:16 AM
Takeda attracts me do to the thinness and light weight. I really would prefer a pretty thick spine that tapers pretty quickly down to a stupid thin edge. My biggest gripe with CCK(besides the weird steel), is how thin the spines are. Nothing to grab, and it punishes my knife callous. But I do enjoy the overall blade geometry. Gentle rock- to flat belly. And wonderfully thin. The ginga's seem a little heavy and thick honestly. And I really don't care for stainless. Feels awful. No offense to anyone who might feel otherwise. I like how responsive the white#2 is to sharpen, but as I said I've no experience with the aogami...

There's a takeda cleaver in really nice condition in BST section over at knife forums right now. No one showed interest when he was asking $355 for it! Now he's just looking for a best offer.

brainsausage
04-27-2012, 01:11 PM
There's a takeda cleaver in really nice condition in BST section over at knife forums right now. No one showed interest when he was asking $355 for it! Now he's just looking for a best offer.

I can't find the thread... Link?

Andy777
04-27-2012, 03:17 PM
well it was only at the top of the list :)

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/920488/pid/2465523/post/last/m/1/#LAST

that would be a killer deal. He originally wanted $500, which was too much IMHO, $400-450 is a more fair price depending on condition, $350 OBO is a steal.

TB_London
04-27-2012, 07:41 PM
And now it's sold......

brainsausage
04-27-2012, 10:22 PM
well it was only at the top of the list :)

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/920488/pid/2465523/post/last/m/1/#LAST

that would be a killer deal. He originally wanted $500, which was too much IMHO, $400-450 is a more fair price depending on condition, $350 OBO is a steal.

I feel a little foolish. I misread that prior post, and thought it was referring to the B/S/T of this here forum. And I subsequently missed my chance, by mere minutes no less:( I keep finding these cheap takeda's a little too late. Which now makes me question why everyone's selling their takeda's... Or maybe I'm just so focused on his stuff that I'm noticing it more so than other makers?

SpikeC
04-27-2012, 10:55 PM
Well you can't have my gyuto!

labor of love
04-28-2012, 01:51 PM
The sujimoto is starting to sound pretty good. Can somebody here describe the steel some? Ive read about how nice the taper is but how reactive is the steel? Anybody know what steel is used? My only gripe with blue steel is the ugly orange brown patina it can develop, is the sujimoto closer to white steel? Edge retention? Thanks.

JKerr
04-29-2012, 01:08 AM
I'm pretty sure the sugimoto is cladded white 2 (with the obvious exception of the CM cleaver). I used my #6 as a line and prep knife for months. Personally, I found it to be quite reactive until I had a patina formed, still needs to be wiped regularly so I generally keep a damp cloth beside my section for wiping it clean every now and again. I used mine for pretty much everything and it formed a fairly even, dark gray patina, similar to some of the pics I've seen on the masamoto KS gyuto. I don't have any good pics of mine (some in the gallery section, but crap quality), but here's one of Andy's:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg213/scaled.php?server=213&filename=sugi62.jpg&res=landing

In regards to performance. Get's super sharp, retention is nothing special but that's pretty standard for white 2. I'm not using it at the moment, but in my last job when it was my go to knife, I was probably touching up every 3-4 days, but I was cutting a lot of onions, lemons, chili, garlic etc. There's probably better options out there, steel wise, but the overall feel of the sugimoto is just great; handle, profile, taper etc. I love mine.

Cheers,
Josh