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AFKitchenknivesguy
04-18-2012, 05:00 PM
http://shopping.yahoo.com/articles/yshoppingarticles/875/top-kitchen-knives-ranked/

Crothcipt
04-18-2012, 05:13 PM
hmm interesting. not sure if I agree, wonder what the criteria was for their rankings.

Vertigo
04-18-2012, 05:45 PM
Its Asian-style blade is thinner than the traditional ones — less suited for hard veggies like carrots.
Oh snap. Boys we've been doing it wrong!

Amon-Rukh
04-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Well, at least now we all know that thin knives are bad for cutting carrots. This will surely save us lifetimes of hassle!

Seth
04-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Maybe we need to consult the surprising answers to sex questions. I'm sure we are doing that wrong too.

Vertigo
04-18-2012, 05:51 PM
Maybe we need to consult the surprising answers to sex questions. I'm sure we are doing that wrong too.
Not always bad to be thick with a full tang, nomesayin'?

:sofa:

99Limited
04-18-2012, 05:52 PM
... wonder what the criteria was for their rankings.

#1 - Make sure you cater to the big boys(ie the manufacturers).
#2 - Make sure you don't know jack about knives.
#3 - Make sure you can get the knife at WS or SLT.

DwarvenChef
04-18-2012, 06:53 PM
#1 - Make sure you cater to the big boys(ie the manufacturers).
#2 - Make sure you don't know jack about knives.
#3 - Make sure you can get the knife at WS or SLT.

Aint that the truth :p

wenus2
04-18-2012, 08:27 PM
Dang, I thought this was gonna be Jason's top knives, aka - sh!t I wish I owned.


Instead it's an amazon.com commercial cutlery commercial.

Gotta love consumer rating based purely on OOTB sharpness.
And the idea that the only way to handle carrots is to wedge them until they break apart.

Eamon Burke
04-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Oh! Henkels and Wusthof Classic! And Chicago Cutlery! Of course!

It's not like those are the EXACT MAKES AND MODELS of knives I hear about daily. I can't think of a single conversation with a home cook that doesn't go like this:
"Oh you sharpen knives? Does that mean that if I bring you mine you can sharpen them for me?"
Yep, I certainly can. And I do it all by hand.
"How much does it cost?"
I charge by the inch.
"Oh ok, because we bought a really good set of knives, and spent a lot of money on them. Can't remember what they are called.."
Henkels? Wusthof? Chicago Cutlery?
"Yeah, (insert brand here)! They are nice knives, but they are just really dull and won't cut anything. We use the rod they came with, but it doesn't seem to do very much. Maybe I just don't know what I am doing."

Every time! If all these stupid foodie rags and websites and retailers are so damn convinced that Wusthof and Henkels are the greatest knives of all time, then how come everyone I work for has them, believes they are supposed to be good, and never uses them? Because they suck.

My most recent home cook had Wusthof, Pampered Chef, and Hampton Forge. She did all of her cutting with a plastic handled, rust pitted steak knife with a bent blade. "That one cuts really good", she said.


They make crappy knives that are optimized for manufacturing, lock down contracts with cooking classes, television shows, public kitchens and culinary schools, then they distribute mythological information that describe those two knives exactly to a T, and then lo and behold, Wusthof and Henkels are the only companies IN THE WHOLE WORLD making knives with all the qualities of "every good knife".

I'd be happy to see all three of those companies out of business. It's not the product that gets my goat, it's the company.

:soapbox:

EdipisReks
04-18-2012, 09:02 PM
that Cat Cora knife looks god awful.

obtuse
04-18-2012, 09:07 PM
I love how the article states that thin knives are ill suited to cutting hard veggies like carrots.

NO ChoP!
04-18-2012, 10:57 PM
I think I would have been happy to see a Shun for once....

tk59
04-19-2012, 12:13 AM
:eeew: I couldn't find the vomit smiley, so this one will have to do.

jmforge
04-19-2012, 12:34 AM
So Eamon.....how many knives have you seen where half of the edge is flat because the few times that their yuppies owners used them, they chose to hack at something on a "cutting board" made from a leftover piece of granite or Corian from their counter installation? I just described my mother and my two brothers and sisters-in-law.:rofl2:
Oh! Henkels and Wusthof Classic! And Chicago Cutlery! Of course!

It's not like those are the EXACT MAKES AND MODELS of knives I hear about daily. I can't think of a single conversation with a home cook that doesn't go like this:
"Oh you sharpen knives? Does that mean that if I bring you mine you can sharpen them for me?"
Yep, I certainly can. And I do it all by hand.
"How much does it cost?"
I charge by the inch.
"Oh ok, because we bought a really good set of knives, and spent a lot of money on them. Can't remember what they are called.."
Henkels? Wusthof? Chicago Cutlery?
"Yeah, (insert brand here)! They are nice knives, but they are just really dull and won't cut anything. We use the rod they came with, but it doesn't seem to do very much. Maybe I just don't know what I am doing."

Every time! If all these stupid foodie rags and websites and retailers are so damn convinced that Wusthof and Henkels are the greatest knives of all time, then how come everyone I work for has them, believes they are supposed to be good, and never uses them? Because they suck.

My most recent home cook had Wusthof, Pampered Chef, and Hampton Forge. She did all of her cutting with a plastic handled, rust pitted steak knife with a bent blade. "That one cuts really good", she said.


They make crappy knives that are optimized for manufacturing, lock down contracts with cooking classes, television shows, public kitchens and culinary schools, then they distribute mythological information that describe those two knives exactly to a T, and then lo and behold, Wusthof and Henkels are the only companies IN THE WHOLE WORLD making knives with all the qualities of "every good knife".

I'd be happy to see all three of those companies out of business. It's not the product that gets my goat, it's the company.

:soapbox:

Mingooch
04-19-2012, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE=EdipisReks;100525]that Cat Cora knife looks god awful.[/QUOTE

But I always thought she was pretty dam cute. :)

NO ChoP!
04-19-2012, 08:39 AM
Ah, too bad she likes the ladies...

RobinW
04-19-2012, 08:59 AM
Maybe we need to consult the surprising answers to sex questions. I'm sure we are doing that wrong too.

I have small kids. Reading those would only make me aware of what i am no longer doing....


As for the winners, i'm not sure i agree very much

Mucho Bocho
04-19-2012, 09:18 AM
Hey Lets not forget to recommend Cutco, my personal favorite. I think what i like most about them is the Double D edge that can never be sharpened. Maybes its the unique handle that requires the cook to only hold the knife in one position. Or maybe its the use of that fance 440 steel. What i like most though is the high cost. Remember your not a "Home Maker" unless you own Cutco. i want to be a Home maker too! :happymug:

Craig
04-19-2012, 09:32 AM
Oh! Henkels and Wusthof Classic! And Chicago Cutlery! Of course!

It's not like those are the EXACT MAKES AND MODELS of knives I hear about daily. I can't think of a single conversation with a home cook that doesn't go like this:
"Oh you sharpen knives? Does that mean that if I bring you mine you can sharpen them for me?"
Yep, I certainly can. And I do it all by hand.
"How much does it cost?"
I charge by the inch.
"Oh ok, because we bought a really good set of knives, and spent a lot of money on them. Can't remember what they are called.."
Henkels? Wusthof? Chicago Cutlery?
"Yeah, (insert brand here)! They are nice knives, but they are just really dull and won't cut anything. We use the rod they came with, but it doesn't seem to do very much. Maybe I just don't know what I am doing."

Every time! If all these stupid foodie rags and websites and retailers are so damn convinced that Wusthof and Henkels are the greatest knives of all time, then how come everyone I work for has them, believes they are supposed to be good, and never uses them? Because they suck.

My most recent home cook had Wusthof, Pampered Chef, and Hampton Forge. She did all of her cutting with a plastic handled, rust pitted steak knife with a bent blade. "That one cuts really good", she said.


They make crappy knives that are optimized for manufacturing, lock down contracts with cooking classes, television shows, public kitchens and culinary schools, then they distribute mythological information that describe those two knives exactly to a T, and then lo and behold, Wusthof and Henkels are the only companies IN THE WHOLE WORLD making knives with all the qualities of "every good knife".

I'd be happy to see all three of those companies out of business. It's not the product that gets my goat, it's the company.

:soapbox:

I don't think this is at all fair to Wusthof or Henkel. They make decent, not good, knives that are massively better than what most home chefs use, which usually come in a box with some combination of the words "laser", "diamond" and "pressed" on the sides. People think they're the best knives around because they're so much better than anything else they have ever used.

Noodle Soup
04-19-2012, 09:49 AM
I'm with Craig, the German brands aren't that bad, they just need to be sharpened like any other knife. The finest Japanese blade will be totally useless in a few months if it isn't resharpened. Maybe even more than the German blades because the Japanese edges tend to be a bit fragile in the hands of granite counter top cutting board users.

Seth
04-19-2012, 10:00 AM
I love how the article states that thin knives are ill suited to cutting hard veggies like carrots.


They don't seem to understand that with a sharp gyuto, hard veggies like carrots are no longer hard... (I think I am referring to the knives...)

Eamon Burke
04-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Again, its not the product, its the company.

They are considered the best because they have all the qualities of a good knife:
A full tang
Drop forged
Full bolster
Thick spine
Balanced in the handle
Soft steel
Big belly

See? Every good knife needs those things! Everyone knows that. Strange thing is, only two companies seem to be readily available that do that, and they come with a warranty! That's what the guy on tv, my cooking school, and bed bath & beyond said. It's not like they were told to say that by the company because they don't know better.


I have heard this from fellow cooks at work, people teaching classes, people making knives, foodies, bloggers, tv personalities, etc etc etc.
Those companies(but especially Wusthof) spent a lot of time and money making sure that every grocery store with a cooking class is outfitted generously with a knife for every student--a Wusthof knife, which they can buy from the giant rack on the wall. Oh, and they gave the instructor a bunch of pamphlets and told him what makes a good knife, so they can pass on the valuable information to the students. Really helpful, considering the guy or gal teaching the class didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground about knives before hand...they are just hired because they know the mother sauces and how to determine learning styles.

I had a coworker come in with a pair of Wusthofs, and I asked why he went with those. He said that's what they gave him in culinary school, and then when they got stolen, he bought them again because "that's what I'm used to" and shrugged.


I think Shun(Classic Santoku) and Forschner(Fibrox Chefs) have managed to come up with a better least-common-denominator, people pleaser knife--the Bud Light of knives. Considering the factors that vary from person to person on which knife is good for them, a knife like a Wusthof Trident Classic is going to be just the right knife for about 5% of people. Though it is what we in the modern world are used to being inundated with, in the grand scheme of knives, it's as extreme a choice to me as a Chinese Cleaver.

Craig
04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
I don't think your problem is with the companies, I think your problem is with consumers and retailers. I mean you can't reasonably expect Wusthof to go "Yeah, we have worldwide distribution, top market share and incredible brand recognition. What we need to do now is tell people how average our knives are!"

Eamon Burke
04-19-2012, 12:53 PM
But their knives aren't average. They are heavy handled, thick, big bellied, soft, mediocre grind, high tip, sharp spines, etc. If you deleted those two companies, leaving the entire rest of the planet that makes knives, then have those knives show back up...they are pretty dang weird knives.

You can't fault people for being incorrectly informed, and the company has been so aggressive with shoving their knives in every corner of the planet that their marketing spiel has become doctrine.

Imagine if every driver's ed class around the world was stocked with free PT Cuisers, and every mechanics school got them to work on for free, and then got to keep a free one when they graduated. And then all Nascar cars are switched to PT Cruisers. Then TV Networks are given lucrative deals and free PT Cruiser fleets with the stipulation that nobody on any show on the entire network can be shown driving any other car. Then have a Chrysler rep show up to every car related event everywhere in the world, because they have millions of dollars to blow on crap like that. Give it thirty years(one generation), guess what kind of car will be voted "the best"?

Johnny.B.Good
04-19-2012, 01:12 PM
I was under the impression that Wusthof sacrifices performance in favor of durability, which seems fair given the habits of the general public (rarely sharpening, running knives through the dishwasher, etc.).

Eamon Burke
04-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I've seen enough chipped, broken, dented, and rusted Wusthofs to know that they won't do any better than any other stainless knife with poor care. Dishwashers, drawers, glass boards, hacking at ice, leaving food on the blade...nothing is going to stand up to that.

berlino
04-19-2012, 01:38 PM
I thought Wüsthofs are incredibly well made (compare a 70$ Wüsthof chef to the avereage 70$ J-Knife) and suit many people's cooking style (rock chopping, going through small bones, etc.). HT is consistent and nowadays these come 58 hrc. There is a lot more left to be desired in terms of f&f in an 8" Tojiro DP compared to an 8" Classic and the DPs are 30 bucks more (at least here in Germany). Besides, a Wüsthof is a major upgrade on what most people I know use in their kitchen. I don't particularly like them but I think they're okay for what you pay. And marketing - hey, aren't it the Japanese that will advertise any hundred dollar knife as all hand-forged top quality samurai cutlery from the blacksmith family's last surviving member? At least Wüsthof is honest about the fact that you get no more than a factory made standard.
I don't like them for pushing their knives but that's what everyone in the world does.

JohnnyChance
04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Again, its not the product, its the company.

They are considered the best because they have all the qualities of a good knife:
A full tang
Drop forged
Full bolster
Thick spine
Balanced in the handle
Soft steel
Big belly

See? Every good knife needs those things! Everyone knows that. Strange thing is, only two companies seem to be readily available that do that, and they come with a warranty! That's what the guy on tv, my cooking school, and bed bath & beyond said. It's not like they were told to say that by the company because they don't know better.


I have heard this from fellow cooks at work, people teaching classes, people making knives, foodies, bloggers, tv personalities, etc etc etc.
Those companies(but especially Wusthof) spent a lot of time and money making sure that every grocery store with a cooking class is outfitted generously with a knife for every student--a Wusthof knife, which they can buy from the giant rack on the wall. Oh, and they gave the instructor a bunch of pamphlets and told him what makes a good knife, so they can pass on the valuable information to the students. Really helpful, considering the guy or gal teaching the class didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground about knives before hand...they are just hired because they know the mother sauces and how to determine learning styles.

I had a coworker come in with a pair of Wusthofs, and I asked why he went with those. He said that's what they gave him in culinary school, and then when they got stolen, he bought them again because "that's what I'm used to" and shrugged.


I think Shun(Classic Santoku) and Forschner(Fibrox Chefs) have managed to come up with a better least-common-denominator, people pleaser knife--the Bud Light of knives. Considering the factors that vary from person to person on which knife is good for them, a knife like a Wusthof Trident Classic is going to be just the right knife for about 5% of people. Though it is what we in the modern world are used to being inundated with, in the grand scheme of knives, it's as extreme a choice to me as a Chinese Cleaver.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You mean to tell me that a big company uses tons of marketing to increase their sales!? I'm shocked. I'm sure Wustof/Henckels are the only corporations to do this, and the only ones to embellish the qualities of their products. It's in their best interest to do this and it is in the consumers best interest to do their own research.

jmforge
04-19-2012, 11:42 PM
Do you think that they might have their faith in mankind shattered if they discovered that those German knives are not drop forged like they used to be, but have the bolsters forge welded to a strip of steel coming off of a huge roll?:bigeek::biggrin:
Again, its not the product, its the company.

They are considered the best because they have all the qualities of a good knife:
A full tang
Drop forged
Full bolster
Thick spine
Balanced in the handle
Soft steel
Big belly

See? Every good knife needs those things! Everyone knows that. Strange thing is, only two companies seem to be readily available that do that, and they come with a warranty! That's what the guy on tv, my cooking school, and bed bath & beyond said. It's not like they were told to say that by the company because they don't know better.


I have heard this from fellow cooks at work, people teaching classes, people making knives, foodies, bloggers, tv personalities, etc etc etc.
Those companies(but especially Wusthof) spent a lot of time and money making sure that every grocery store with a cooking class is outfitted generously with a knife for every student--a Wusthof knife, which they can buy from the giant rack on the wall. Oh, and they gave the instructor a bunch of pamphlets and told him what makes a good knife, so they can pass on the valuable information to the students. Really helpful, considering the guy or gal teaching the class didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground about knives before hand...they are just hired because they know the mother sauces and how to determine learning styles.

I had a coworker come in with a pair of Wusthofs, and I asked why he went with those. He said that's what they gave him in culinary school, and then when they got stolen, he bought them again because "that's what I'm used to" and shrugged.


I think Shun(Classic Santoku) and Forschner(Fibrox Chefs) have managed to come up with a better least-common-denominator, people pleaser knife--the Bud Light of knives. Considering the factors that vary from person to person on which knife is good for them, a knife like a Wusthof Trident Classic is going to be just the right knife for about 5% of people. Though it is what we in the modern world are used to being inundated with, in the grand scheme of knives, it's as extreme a choice to me as a Chinese Cleaver.

Eamon Burke
04-20-2012, 06:40 AM
You know, the other day, my coworker and I were telling the boss that we were having trouble with the burning roofing tar the crew reroofing the building had going. They burned it in a giant bbq pit outside our door. My coworker said the smell was bothering him and I said it was giving me headaches. My boss rolled her eyes and said "yeah, but everything gives you a headache". She's referring to my low tolerance for inhaling degreaser spray, putting my head in an oven with oven cleaner in it, and tolerating working after the floor gets mopped with a few cups of pine sol and a few cups of bleach. Regular behavior where I work.

My coworker said, "yeah he does but it's starting to hurt my head too", and she said she understood to him. I said "just because I often get headaches doesn't mean I don't have one." Her response? "Yeah, but it doesn't make you special when you do."


It's often surprising how quickly an ethical code gets trashed in favor of accepting the status quo. Yes, many other companies do this stuff--that is exactly the problem. It has become accepted from the outset that everyone accepting your money is going to lie, cheat, extort and manipulate to get it.

Research? It took me years to know what I know now, and a few more to find out it was common knowledge 100 years ago.

Craig
04-20-2012, 09:55 AM
So you hate on them for marketing? Really?

German knives are definitely average knives. Yes, there is a whole world of better knives out there, but compared to what is in the average home cook's hands pretty much any forged blade is an improvement. A wusthof/Henckel can take a decent, but not good edge, it's very durable compared to most other knives, including a lot of the higher-end cutters we all know and love. They also come with lifetime warranties, which are attractive to people who don't want to take care of their own knives. Sure, their profiles aren't the best ever, but that big belly and the thickness you list as reasons why they aren't average are attractive to most people who just hack at stuff and rock cut everything. The average person doesn't push-cut much, so the average knife doesn't need to be suited for it. Sharp spine? Really? You think that's a realistic benchmark for an average blade?

Eamon Burke
04-20-2012, 01:38 PM
No, I hate on them for UNETHICAL marketing. It is not considered ethically satisfactory marketing to distribute false information about a subject that exists solely to promote your product within that subject. You aren't supposed to just lie to people. I mean really? A full tang? A perfect angle?

Also, yeah, easing, or at least beveling, a spine is totally something every knife should have done. It's like a 5 second task.

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. But one of the few things I enjoy analyzing that involves other people is ethical systems. And bloated global corporations very rarely satisfy a modicum of consistency within any ethical system, other than "more money = good, to the exclusion of all else". If the same standards were applied to individuals, we'd get robbed and should feel envious of the guy who robbed us. The man in town who dams up the water supply and sells it for so much money the town lives in squalor would instead get awards and sell books about "how you can do it too!". The guy who sells you a product that doesn't exist or is a lemon would be heralded as a great entrepreneur. Honestly, I don't understand how everyone is cool with how they do business. I suppose it's like WalMart or Apple--people see it enough, they accept it. I don't.

WildBoar
04-20-2012, 02:04 PM
You know, the other day, my coworker and I were telling the boss that we were having trouble with the burning roofing tar the crew reroofing the building had going. They burned it in a giant bbq pit outside our door. Well no wonder they were burning it -- it is supposed to be melted in a * kettle *, not a bbq pit! Gotta be careful with that, as the flash points of coal tar pitch and asphalt bitumens aren't that much higher then the optimum kettle temperatures, and it's easy to get a flash fire. And if they kept the bitumen at too high a temperature for too long, it could have impacted the softening point and the long-term performance of the new built-up roofing membrane.

Anywho, pics or it didn't happen! I love me some good roof replacement photos!

Dang, I knew one day my knife and work worlds would collide...



p.s. I consider the smell "the smell of progress"!

Eamon Burke
04-20-2012, 02:13 PM
I didn't get a picture of it. I got a pic of the big trailer thingy that looks like a giant pit that does the bulk of it, but up on the roof, they actually had a barrel smoker going. I doubt it was lunch.

WildBoar
04-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Kettle was on the ground, and likely just a lugger on the roof. Smoke would have come out of the lugger when it was being filled, or when draining into the mop carts, but it would not have had a heater/ flame.

TB_London
04-20-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm with Eamon on the frustration of people believing that the best knife has all the attributes that they have been told by years of marketing, rather than any actual knowledge. Articles like these are infuriating as they have rarely been written by anyone who actually knows the subject well. The whole samurai sword story used in 'japanese' knife marketing also drives me nuts though.

WildBoar
04-20-2012, 03:14 PM
At one time people probably cared more/ paid more attention. But with mass production things like kitchen knives became a commodity. So Wusthof, etc. put their spin on things to spotlight their products vs those of others. Compared to the limited number of mass-produced USA kitchen knives, are Wusthofs any worse?

As with many other types of products, there's a bit of a renaissance and people are now looking closer at things they used to take for granted. Shoot, I knew nothing about Japanese knifes until a few years ago. I can't say that was the fault of Wusthof, as none of the stores with kitchen stuff carried products from Japanese makers around here. It had nothing to do with Wusthof marketing, except maybe Wusthof products seemed better then the other options the stores were presented with by their distributors. So why weren't Japanese knives more popular in the US? Maybe no one really tried to market them here until recently?

And it's great that we have some makers coming to the forefront, and producing nice kitchen knives, although at the typical price points they cost 4-5 times what a Wusthof costs.

Crothcipt
04-20-2012, 07:51 PM
Well no wonder they were burning it -- it is supposed to be melted in a * kettle *, not a bbq pit! Gotta be careful with that, as the flash points of coal tar pitch and asphalt bitumens aren't that much higher then the optimum kettle temperatures, and it's easy to get a flash fire. And if they kept the bitumen at too high a temperature for too long, it could have impacted the softening point and the long-term performance of the new built-up roofing membrane.

Anywho, pics or it didn't happen! I love me some good roof replacement photos!

Dang, I knew one day my knife and work worlds would collide...



p.s. I consider the smell "the smell of progress"!

:plus1:

AFKitchenknivesguy
04-20-2012, 07:55 PM
I love the path the thread has gone. I found it amusing, once again, the choices they picked. I was actually shocked they didn't have Shun on the list.

Crothcipt
04-20-2012, 08:00 PM
me too.

Eamon Burke
04-20-2012, 09:08 PM
Yeah, plus the idea of ranking knives based on cutting a tomato and some basil seems nutty. You can sharpen them differently and get totally different results.

Dave Martell
04-21-2012, 01:52 AM
Guys, we can disagree but we shouldn't insult each other. Let's keep the personal insults to ourselves or if you feel a need to share there's always the PM system where you can talk (or insult) privately.

I'm going to remove the insults and all related discussion from this thread.

jaybett
04-21-2012, 05:59 AM
Every time one of these articles, gets posted, the usual comments get made about the authors lack of knowledge. The question I always have is what would the forum recommend to people who are not knife enthusiasts? The answer to date has been silence. Probably because in the end, we would recommend Wustoff or Henkels. Are they the best knives out there? Based on cutting performance, hardly. But for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes.

I don't understand the criticism that all companies want to do is make money. Every business that I am aware of, needs to make money to stay open.

To say that Wustoff or Henkels are lying about their products, is wrong. Lying means that Wustoff or Henkels knows that there claims about there products are wrong, but continue to make them.

Branding is a good sales tool. Take McDonald's for instance, do they have for the best hamburgers. I'm sure we would have to search high and low to find somebody willing to admit that McDonald's was their favorite place to get a burger. So why is McDonalds so popular? They have made a reputation or brand for being a clean well lit restaurant with reasonable prices. When your on a trip, and there is a McDonald's on one side of the street and on the other side is Bob's Burger World. Bob's may be the best burger joint in the state, or it just failed its last health inspection, because of rats running freely through the kitchen. Which restaurant are you going to choose, a sure thing or take a risk on an unknown restaurant?

Wustoff and Henkels are the known brand names in the knife world. People who shop for knives know the name and trust them.

Jay

oivind_dahle
04-21-2012, 07:29 AM
I just love this articles. Well I know Im not being fair to the makers here, but price is a result of demand and supply.
What would happen when custom high end makers was ranked as nr one in all tests. What would happen if everyone found out the best makers in the world was Bill and Devin. Just imagine what would happen if Carter and Marko was discovered by the masses.

I couldn't afford more than one knife of them, and the line was like 6 years waiting. However I want the custom makers of my knives to make money, I have never ever argued about price with one of them. I have also every time payed up front, even years in advance. But still, wait with the media till Im done buying high end knives :) Just 2 more of devin and Im done :)

Eamon Burke
04-21-2012, 09:42 AM
I feel like I am belaboring to no avail on the corporate responsibility thing, so I'll not :yap:. Maybe I'll elucidate at some point in the future. I am not in disagreement with most of the things said in response to my posts, so I think I'm being misapprehended.


Every time one of these articles, gets posted, the usual comments get made about the authors lack of knowledge. The question I always have is what would the forum recommend to people who are not knife enthusiasts? The answer to date has been silence. Probably because in the end, we would recommend Wustoff or Henkels. Are they the best knives out there? Based on cutting performance, hardly. But for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes.


That is a great question! For whatever reason, we don't get nearly the volume of newbie posts here that I would expect, or that we saw years ago on other forums. It used to be a twice daily thing some guy/gal shows up and says "I have this tiny pigeon budget, I am scared of sharp things, what's the best knife?". As a result, there were "flavor of the month" beaters that got suggested to people, Tojiro, Fujiwara, Forschner, etc.

But the thing is, a 10" Wusthof Classic Chef's is still $145! That's not cheap, if you ask me. If you are going to spend ~$130 on one knife, the 240mm Suisin Inox Western knocks the Wusthof out of the park. It out performs and out classes that Wusthof so bad it's laughable.

mr drinky
04-21-2012, 09:51 AM
[QUOTE=EdipisReks;100525]that Cat Cora knife looks god awful.[/QUOTE

But I always thought she was pretty dam cute. :)

She is cute, likes the ladies, but she is also 4'11''. And that is Hollywood height, so I am sure she is more around 4'9-10".

Btw, my favorite quote from the article regarding the Morimoto: "You may need to buy this knife as a supplement to a cutlery set, however; with its fine edge, it's not the right knife for cutting hard foods like carrots or chicken bones. If you're a fan of Iron Chef, you'll love this excellent celebrity kitchen knife."

Damn, I need to buy a set first?? And I didn't know my TV-viewing habits should also influence my knife choice. Oh well...I am going to go cook up some chicken bone food now.

k.

tk59
04-21-2012, 10:18 AM
...for a household that needs a reasonably sharp knife, doesn't want to spend a lot of time on upkeep, then the answer is yes...I have to agree with Eamon on this one. If you want something tough and stain resistant that can take and hold a reasonable edge, Henckels and Wusthof are way overpriced. Forschner and Mercer, for example, make much better choices and don't get much mainstream pub.

jaybett
04-21-2012, 12:42 PM
I have to agree with Eamon on this one. If you want something tough and stain resistant that can take and hold a reasonable edge, Henckels and Wusthof are way overpriced. Forschner and Mercer, for example, make much better choices and don't get much mainstream pub.

There is a magazine that constantly touts the benefits of Forschner knives. A recommendation from them, is sure to guarantee an increase in sales. They helped start the mania for Kramer knives with a little side box, that stated a Kramer knife was the sharpest, they had seen in the test kitchen. The magazine? Cooks Illustrated.

It's an easy comment to make, that a knife is over valued. This kind of comment gets peoples attention, because no one wants to over pay. The question then becomes, what is a better knife for the same money? A lot of times an alternative isn't offered. When an alternative is offered, is it really any better then the original suggestion?

Arguing about value is problematic. What one person values, may be of no value to another person. Is a Suisin Inox a better performing knife then a Wustoff? Absolutely. Is the Suisin, a good choice, for a household that has no interest in learning how to sharpen or oiling a handle? No. Is a Wustoff overpriced? Most magazines will rate any knife that is over a hundred dollars as expensive. Is it better to buy a knife that cuts as well as Wustoff, but costs less money? The obvious answer is yes, but applying this logic to more expensive knives, does it make sense to buy a Heji, when a Konosuke cuts just as well?

What I find interesting is that over the last ten years, we have seen Global and Shun, brought to the market as an alternative to Henkels and Wustoff. Sur la Table, and William Sonoma are offering knives in the $300 range. In response to the competition Henkels has opened a factory in Japan. Wustoff has developed a new line. Plus a lot of new lines have been introduced. With all the choices where will the market go?

Jay

Johnny.B.Good
04-21-2012, 01:16 PM
A couple of excellent posts Jay.

tk59
04-21-2012, 04:09 PM
There is a magazine that constantly touts the benefits of Forschner knives. A recommendation from them, is sure to guarantee an increase in sales. They helped start the mania for Kramer knives with a little side box, that stated a Kramer knife was the sharpest, they had seen in the test kitchen. The magazine? Cooks Illustrated.

It's an easy comment to make, that a knife is over valued. This kind of comment gets peoples attention, because no one wants to over pay. The question then becomes, what is a better knife for the same money? A lot of times an alternative isn't offered. When an alternative is offered, is it really any better then the original suggestion?...Yes. I do remember the Cooks Illustrated effect, now that you mention it. As for value, I mentioned Mercer because they make a line that has essentially the same quality in terms of grind and materials and fit and finish and nearly the same design as a Henckel/Wusthof but is a fraction of the cost mainly because their factory is in Taiwan, I think.

Crothcipt
04-21-2012, 07:56 PM
Any time I think about the knife industry I compare it to the restaurant industry. On one hand you have Mickey D's and cheap food and prices. On the other hand you have a 10$ burger from just about any other sit down joint.

Many times I will explain to someone, that I know that can't and won't afford eating at were I work, how much a burger will cost. It always comes down to "that is to expensive for a burger." I then go on to explain the differences between the 2.

Does the corporate (mcdonalds) go out and explain the difference? No. They are making money on their brand. Is it the best burger they can give? No. Is it their responsibility to educate the public why they have cheap food? No. It used to be hard to explain the differences and you could get into shouting matches over it. It has been many people getting educated about food that has made it easier. It was not through cook books, home cooks (god knows how many times I have eaten bad home cooking). I think food network has helped in many ways in this regard.

It won't be until there is a main focus on why knives are better for certain things than others. I see the knife industry at about were the food industry was in the 70's or 80's.

I hope this helps, and not confuses.

mr drinky
04-21-2012, 08:33 PM
When I studied economics, the point was made there is always a place for inferior products in an economy. You can't just have the best and most expensive products. Cheaper lesser quality products always have a place.

With that said, I think the part that pisses us knife knuts off is the miseducation that surrounds these inferior products. Instead of selling Wusthof knives as medium quality, semi-affordable blades for people who don't have time or know how to sharpen or who can't ensure proper care, they bill them as high quality, best-in-market knives with misleading terminology such as 'forged' 'full tang' etc to make people think they are the best.

The manufacturers of medium quality TVs, cars, cookware etc don't really try to say their product is the best -- just better valued.

k.

Crothcipt
04-21-2012, 08:35 PM
happens all the time in the restaurant industry all the time too.

Eamon Burke
04-21-2012, 10:30 PM
When I studied economics, the point was made there is always a place for inferior products in an economy. You can't just have the best and most expensive products. Cheaper lesser quality products always have a place.

With that said, I think the part that pisses us knife knuts off is the miseducation that surrounds these inferior products. Instead of selling Wusthof knives as medium quality, semi-affordable blades for people who don't have time or know how to sharpen or who can't ensure proper care, they bill them as high quality, best-in-market knives with misleading terminology such as 'forged' 'full tang' etc to make people think they are the best.

The manufacturers of medium quality TVs, cars, cookware etc don't really try to say their product is the best -- just better valued.

k.

Exactly.