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Shinob1
04-23-2012, 10:53 AM
I have some questions I'm hoping you all can help me answer.

1. For touch-ups, do you want to create a burr or are you just lightly sharpening the edge to hone and straighten it out, as you would say with a German knife and steel?

2. On my new knife, I am going to take it to the stones today. Is the arrow pointing to the bevel? I am planning on putting the sharpie right below where the arrow is to see where I'm hitting the bevel on the stone. I'm aiming for somewhere near the middle so I can sharpening from the top down to the edge.

http://i.imgur.com/hQqTc.png

Thanks! :thumbsup:

tk59
04-23-2012, 11:50 AM
1. No burr. You are just straightening and introducing new "teeth" into your edge so just a few light passes on something 1k or over depending on what you are looking for.
2. Your picture lacks enough resolution to tell for sure but that arrow looks like it is pointing to the cladding line. Your cutting bevels should be right at the edge and be pretty narrow. Maybe 1 mm wide or less. If it's really too small to see well, you might need a loupe or just have to install your own best guess bevels.

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Unfortunately all I have is a phone camera and I'm anything but a photographer. Here is another picture. The blue arrow is pointing to the most polished metal right under I believe the Shinogi line. The black arrow is pointing to the edge, which on this knife is like the width of a hair.

http://i.imgur.com/6gnzz.jpg

If I was to sharpenwhere the blue arrow is, I'm assuming based on your comment that I wouldn't be sharpening the edge, but more so thinning the knife. So I would need a more obtuse angle right? Thanks for the help! :D

tk59
04-23-2012, 04:14 PM
That's right. You'll need to thin eventually but I wouldn't, at this stage.

Andrew H
04-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Unfortunately all I have is a phone camera and I'm anything but a photographer. Here is another picture. The blue arrow is pointing to the most polished metal right under I believe the Shinogi line. The black arrow is pointing to the edge, which on this knife is like the width of a hair.

http://i.imgur.com/6gnzz.jpg

If I was to sharpenwhere the blue arrow is, I'm assuming based on your comment that I wouldn't be sharpening the edge, but more so thinning the knife. So I would need a more obtuse angle right? Thanks for the help! :D

You're right about everything except the blue arrow is pointing at the lamination line (where the blue #1 core meets the cladding steel), not the shinogi line.

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 04:54 PM
I talked to Jon and he helped me understand what to do a bit better. One thing I hope you all can clarify for me, I can go ahead and sharpen against the entire blade path right? That way I can maintain the geometry of the knife and thin as I sharpen as Dave described in his asymmetry post (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL)?

http://i.imgur.com/TNK95.jpg?1

Eamon Burke
04-23-2012, 04:59 PM
well, you are just touching up, so I wouldn't. Just hit the edge, don't use too coarse a stone(I'd say don't even use more than one stone), and try edge trailing only first. Despite "not raising a burr" you will need to deburr it. It's a fact of life.

Be patient, not too much pressure, and hit that edge.


And don't worry. The worst that can happen is you scratch it. It's really hard to break a knife on a stone.

JBroida
04-23-2012, 05:00 PM
first from B to C... then from C to edge... then you can blend along C for hamaguri edge. That would be ideal.

(i know we spoke of a slightly different game plan, but i wanted to make this post so others would like what the best way to sharpen would be)

tk59
04-23-2012, 05:15 PM
You recommend that people do this even when the primary bevel is that tiny? I think that's asking for trouble unless you're pretty proficient.

Eamon Burke
04-23-2012, 05:20 PM
Jon is, of course, dead on with his advice. Just that he's telling you how to sharpen it, I should've said that my advice is to not sharpen your knives for a while, but to just touch up the very edge until you get comfortable with the physical motions.

Just hitting the edge and cleaning it up is something that you can only do a few times before it needs to be sharpened fully. Jon's sharpening vids are great for this stuff though!

JBroida
04-23-2012, 05:23 PM
its the technically proper way to sharpen the knife... however, i always ask about how the edge is working for them. If they want to keep things the same, this is the way to sharpen (dont go crazy with the thinning though). If the edge is not holding up as well as desired, i tell them to sharpen just the edge or add a microbevel. If they want the edge to be thinner (at the cost of being less durable), they can thin a bit more as they sharpen from the shinogi line down. This doesnt mean that everyone should sharpen this way all of the time, but its nice to know what is technically correct.

Cadillac J
04-23-2012, 06:27 PM
You recommend that people do this even when the primary bevel is that tiny? I think that's asking for trouble unless you're pretty proficient.

Agreed on this, as he is just starting out.

I'm assuming the Zakuri is like a Takeda in the sense that its 'back' bevel is very wide/tall, although the Zakuri looks to be more robust overall...and I remember when I got my first Takeda, all I needed to do was touch up the very edge and it performed wonderfully. It wasn't until I built up my sharpening skills and knowledge that thinning it out from the top down, removing the concaveness and blending it all together not only looked great, but improved even more on the performance.

Although noobs have way more info and videos than most of us did to learn, everyone has to go through a similar process of learning and understanding why they are sharpening a certain way. It's those stepping stones when the light bulb clicks and you jump up a peg in your skills...its like a laddered process with areas of significant increases in skills. That is why it is so much fun.

memorael
04-23-2012, 08:26 PM
I would do the Jon thing, you really are going to mess it up anyway (everyone does, thats how we got proficient... even today I still do)... this sounded kinda Aholeish, all I am saying is you aren't going to learn to sharpen by reading or hearing some advice. Its kinda like learning to swim you just have to get your feet wet and get a couple of scares out of your system.

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 08:33 PM
So I took the knifes to the stones. I dont think that I did very well at all, yet the knife is sharper...:dontknow:

I tried sharpening from the shinogi line down to the lamentation/edge bevel, or from B to C. It didnt go very well. I did the sharpie thing and I found it difficult to hit the shinogi line. I tried doing this on both sides than gave up.

I then dropped down to the 1k stone and sharpened. Deburred then went back to the 5k stone. After that I deburred again and stropped twice on leather with 1micron diamond spray.

Paper test was good, slicing and push cutting were better. Then I took out a carrot and that is where I noticed a difference. Push cutting, rock chopping, and pull through were great. I was able to make smaller cuts and do so easier.

No idea what is going on. How can I go about fixing the bevels?
http://imgur.com/a/uCvKN (http://imgur.com/a/uCvKN)

memorael
04-23-2012, 09:06 PM
So I took the knifes to the stones. I dont think that I did very well at all, yet the knife is sharper...:dontknow:

I tried sharpening from the shinogi line down to the lamentation/edge bevel, or from B to C. It didnt go very well. I did the sharpie thing and I found it difficult to hit the shinogi line. I tried doing this on both sides than gave up.

I then dropped down to the 1k stone and sharpened. Deburred then went back to the 5k stone. After that I deburred again and stropped twice on leather with 1micron diamond spray.

Paper test was good, slicing and push cutting were better. Then I took out a carrot and that is where I noticed a difference. Push cutting, rock chopping, and pull through were great. I was able to make smaller cuts and do so easier.

No idea what is going on. How can I go about fixing the bevels?
http://imgur.com/a/uCvKN (http://imgur.com/a/uCvKN)

Seems fine to me... there appears to be uneven bevel do to concaveness of the initial company grind (totally normal) but the sharpening job looks nice. Just keep experimenting your doing fine. I did way worse on my first knife just so you know.

tk59
04-23-2012, 09:18 PM
I would do the Jon thing, you really are going to mess it up anyway (everyone does, thats how we got proficient... even today I still do)... this sounded kinda Aholeish, all I am saying is you aren't going to learn to sharpen by reading or hearing some advice. Its kinda like learning to swim you just have to get your feet wet and get a couple of scares out of your system.I'm not saying he shouldn't sharpen his knife but if you grind a bunch on a blade that is thin at the edge and you find out you screwed up, that could be a major f-ing problem that takes a lot of life off your knife. If you let it thicken up a little and you overgrind a patch or two, you don't have to remove life off of your blade to fix it.

SpikeC
04-23-2012, 09:41 PM
I would say don't worry about it for now, if it cuts well just enjoy it! The bevels will come, don't worry be happy!

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 09:43 PM
When I was grinding higher up on the blade I was only using the 5k stone. When I moved to the 1k, I was sharpening the edge.

I made dinner and the edge performed well. From a sharpness perspective I'm happy, but the blade itself to me looks off. There is an unevenness on the polish. I think most of that came from when I was trying to grind the shinogi line down to the edge.

ThEoRy
04-23-2012, 09:50 PM
I would've done that in reverse. Sharpened the blade path with the 1000 grit then the edge up to 5000.

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 10:00 PM
I would've done that in reverse. Sharpened the blade path with the 1000 grit then the edge up to 5000.

This probably sounds silly, but how are you grindng the blade path? When I layed the knife down flat, it was too high, raise it up a bit and it was too low. To me it would make sense to grind the blade stone closer to the side of the stone. This way you could lower the spine down to find the right angle. Does that make any sense?

tk59
04-23-2012, 11:22 PM
...grind the blade stone closer to the side of the stone...Uh... What does this have to do with the grit?

Dave Martell
04-23-2012, 11:24 PM
This style knife is different then a typical gyuto in that it's sharpened more like the front side of a single bevel knife then a western double bevel factory looking gyuto would be.

My advice is akin to Jon's but I'll add some crap of my own for flavor. :)

Think of this knife as having 3 bevels, there's the real wide slightly concave bevel (this is closest to the kurouchi finish), then there's the 2nd bevel that's primarily core steel, and then there's the 1st (primary) cutting edge.

The way I do these knives is like this....

1. Cut in a new primary edge bevel. I want a nice & crisp 400-500x bevel. I work my way down from the secondary bevel to the cutting edge to create a burr. Now I know the knife is sharp and has a proper thin angled edge applied.

2. Then I flatten the big wide concave like bevel all the way from shinogi line (or kurouchi finish line - LOL) until I connect with the secondary bevel, then I raise the spine ever so slightly and blend the big bevel into the primary cutting edge bevel until I've gone all the way down to the cutting edge making that hamaguri shape.

3. I now make the whole thing pretty which is too long of a subject to type out here really but essentially you can use natural stones, some synthetics that create mud (etc) to do this. The idea is to blend and make it all look even with a contrast showing between the cladding and core steels.

4. De-Burr


I'm of the belief that it's actually better to give the knowledge to a new sharpener along with a strong warning of go slow, stop often, and look at what you're doing. If this warning is heeded then most times the new sharpener will do fine with coarse grit stones and some major work and if they don't then they learned something in the process. :)

Shinob1
04-23-2012, 11:33 PM
This helped me understand what to do. When you are doing step two, how close is the spine of the knife to the stone?


This style knife is different then a typical gyuto in that it's sharpened more like the front side of a single bevel knife then a western double bevel factory looking gyuto would be.

My advice is akin to Jon's but I'll add some crap of my own for flavor. :)

Think of this knife as having 3 bevels, there's the real wide slightly concave bevel (this is closest to the kurouchi finish), then there's the 2nd bevel that's primarily core steel, and then there's the 1st (primary) cutting edge.

The way I do these knives is like this....

1. Cut in a new primary edge bevel. I want a nice & crisp 400-500x bevel. I work my way down from the secondary bevel to the cutting edge to create a burr. Now I know the knife is sharp and has a proper thin angled edge applied.

2. Then I flatten the big wide concave like bevel all the way from shinogi line (or kurouchi finish line - LOL) until I connect with the secondary bevel, then I raise the spine ever so slightly and blend the big bevel into the primary cutting edge bevel until I've gone all the way down to the cutting edge making that hamaguri shape.

3. I now make the whole thing pretty which is too long of a subject to type out here really but essentially you can use natural stones, some synthetics that create mud (etc) to do this. The idea is to blend and make it all look even with a contrast showing between the cladding and core steels.

4. De-Burr


I'm of the belief that it's actually better to give the knowledge to a new sharpener along with a strong warning of go slow, stop often, and look at what you're doing. If this warning is heeded then most times the new sharpener will do fine with coarse grit stones and some major work and if they don't then they learned something in the process. :)

Dave Martell
04-23-2012, 11:43 PM
When you are doing step two, how close is the spine of the knife to the stone?


On some knives (Takeda comes to mind) you are VERY close to the stone. I've found it's safer to the appearance of the knife to hang the section of the blade that you're not working with off of the side of the stone. So in this case you're working lengthwise down the edge of the stone vs corner to corner. This hang off approach only works well if you sharpen with both hands (so you can hit both sides) which you do so no worries there for you.

Shinob1
04-24-2012, 12:02 AM
I had the same idea! I will give that a shot and see how I do. :)


On some knives (Takeda comes to mind) you are VERY close to the stone. I've found it's safer to the appearance of the knife to hang the section of the blade that you're not working with off of the side of the stone. So in this case you're working lengthwise down the edge of the stone vs corner to corner. This hang off approach only works well if you sharpen with both hands (so you can hit both sides) which you do so no worries there for you.

Andrew H
04-24-2012, 12:39 AM
I had the same idea! I will give that a shot and see how I do. :)

If you haven't watched Dave's emmy nominated youtube sharpening vids check them out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MezIEKGk9T0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSyK67mqXEI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtkwvoYaus4&feature=relmfu

Dave Martell
04-24-2012, 12:43 AM
Oh how embarrassing.....such poor form back then :puke:

Andrew H
04-24-2012, 12:46 AM
Oh how embarrassing.....such poor form back then :puke:

Better than mine!

ThEoRy
04-24-2012, 01:17 AM
This probably sounds silly, but how are you grindng the blade path? When I layed the knife down flat, it was too high, raise it up a bit and it was too low. To me it would make sense to grind the blade stone closer to the side of the stone. This way you could lower the spine down to find the right angle. Does that make any sense?

The blade road is from the shinogi line down to the edge. You just lay the knife down flat on it. Also, no. None of what you just said made any sense. :razz:

add
04-24-2012, 01:58 AM
If you haven't watched Dave's emmy nominated youtube sharpening vids check them out:

We like him.

We really like him...

:D

Shinob1
04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
The blade road is from the shinogi line down to the edge. You just lay the knife down flat on it. Also, no. None of what you just said made any sense. :razz:

Dave explained it better than I did - I was having troubles hitting the blade road and was trying to ask if hanging the knife off the side of the stone would be okay to do.

I've found it's safer to the appearance of the knife to hang the section of the blade that you're not working with off of the side of the stone. So in this case you're working lengthwise down the edge of the stone vs corner to corner.

With this knowledge I think I'll be able to touch up the knife and make it look better. However cutting wise it's great! I'm probably worrying about this all too much and should just try to have fun learning. :)

ThEoRy
04-24-2012, 04:21 PM
Sounds like the blade road just needs to be flattened more. That's why I recommended using a lower grit stone to remove the steel faster and get the job done. A 5k stone will only polish or pre polish the road and take you forever (i.e. never)to flatten it, not to mention it will eat up your stone before you even get anywhere.

The blade road on many knives can and will come with both high and low spots on them. You'll never get them out on your first try nor should you even try to. You'll just get frustrated, feel defeated and give up hope. Eventually over time after several sharpening sessions it should work itself out naturally if you are diligent and doing it properly.

memorael
04-24-2012, 09:59 PM
Dave explained it better than I did - I was having troubles hitting the blade road and was trying to ask if hanging the knife off the side of the stone would be okay to do.


With this knowledge I think I'll be able to touch up the knife and make it look better. However cutting wise it's great! I'm probably worrying about this all too much and should just try to have fun learning. :)

I think its ok to do so, but take notice that some people claim that there is a different feeling when you cut stuff... I am one of those person's, and there is nothing wrong with the feeling nor does the knife cut better or worse, just different.

Shinob1
05-01-2012, 09:36 PM
So I decided to sharpen up my stainless 210mm Yoshihiro. I could not quite get it to where I have my Zakuri and was hoping someone could perhaps give me a pointer or two.

Here is the blade after I took it to the stones. http://imgur.com/a/Xb5vN

I am not able to push cut paper as well. I tried the blade on a potato and it did fairy well. I then tried to cut a thick carrot and that is where I noticed a big difference between the Zakuri and the Yoshihiro.

Sharpening wise I went from my King 1k, deburred on a felt block, then felt pad. Next I went to my Suehiro Rika 5k stone, deburred the same way, then stropped on leather with 1micron diamond spray.

From as far as I can tell the bevels look okay. Should I try to lower my angle or perhaps do some thinning?

tk59
05-01-2012, 09:42 PM
Unless you care more about pretty than performance, I wouldn't worry about getting the blade road perfectly flat. As you use up your knife your blade road will flatten gradually.

JBroida
05-01-2012, 09:46 PM
wedging with the carrot? The yoshihiro is thicker behind the edge than the zakuri.

Edge sharpness should be better with the zakuri, but the yoshihiro can get shaving sharp

Shinob1
05-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Yes I had some wedging with the carrot. I know that I should be able to get the Yoshihiro sharper, but it seems to more difficult for me to do so, but I know it is due to user error. I imagine part of that is to do with the thinness and perhaps because the Zakuri is carbon?

I'm trying to find out technique wise what I can do to improve, are there any other "tests" per se or things I could do or try to further evaluate and improve the edge?

JBroida
05-01-2012, 10:02 PM
yeah... carbon is often much easier to sharpen than stainless and the yoshihiro is on the tougher side

if you want to go over sharpening in more depth, give me a call or bug me on skype and i'd be happy to spend some time on this with you

Shinob1
05-01-2012, 10:08 PM
Will do! Thanks. :doublethumbsup:


yeah... carbon is often much easier to sharpen than stainless and the yoshihiro is on the tougher side

if you want to go over sharpening in more depth, give me a call or bug me on skype and i'd be happy to spend some time on this with you

Shinob1
05-02-2012, 09:38 PM
After talking to Jon I was able to get the knife much sharper. Push cutting paper is a lot better, cutting a potato was improved and I could even shave arm hair. Still room for improvement I'm sure, but a lot better.

One thing I noticed is when stropping on leather, I heard some crackling like sounds. To me it sounded like little pieces of metal were being ripped off. Is that normal?

Andrew H
05-02-2012, 09:49 PM
After talking to Jon I was able to get the knife much sharper. Push cutting paper is a lot better, cutting a potato was improved and I could even shave arm hair. Still room for improvement I'm sure, but a lot better.

One thing I noticed is when stropping on leather, I heard some crackling like sounds. To me it sounded like little pieces of metal were being ripped off. Is that normal?

That means the burr is being removed. That's a good thing!

Shinob1
05-02-2012, 10:01 PM
That means the burr is being removed. That's a good thing!

What is interesting to me is that this was after I had cut into a hard felt block and stropped on a hard felt pad. Good to know that it's a good thing. :D