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papazaza
04-23-2012, 02:56 PM
hey guys i know theirs a million and one kinds of steel out there I'm looking to see what's the best kind of carbon i know white # 1 and 2 an blue #1 and 2 are up their

please be gentle with explanation because I'm still learning and don't know that much yet

NO ChoP!
04-23-2012, 03:15 PM
"The best" for what? Rust resistance? Edge retention? Sharpness? All-arounder? Every steel has its own attributes. Every person has their own preferences. I like aogami super because it gets sharp and retains it quite well...

papazaza
04-23-2012, 03:23 PM
edge retention and sharpness i work in a catering hall and go thru 10 cases of vegetables on a Tuesday easy so im looking for something that can keep up

oivind_dahle
04-23-2012, 03:28 PM
52100 can keep up if right HT

olpappy
04-23-2012, 03:34 PM
A lot will depend on the heat treat, and the only way to really know how the HT came out is to test the knife's performance after it's finished. Aogami super is widely available in Japanese commercial knives as well as some very expensive honyaki pieces or custom orders from specific makers, whereas 52100 you would have to likely order a custom from an American maker. So in some ways it comes down to your budget, and whether you are looking for a Japanese style or western style knife. If you're talking custom US maker, there's also a ton of other potential steel choices like M4, 3V etc

Vertigo
04-23-2012, 03:36 PM
For my money, I love the way White #2 sharpens and takes a patina, and the way AS holds an edge. Haven't used 52100 though, which by all accounts is pretty spiffy.

oivind_dahle
04-23-2012, 03:39 PM
You can get a 52100 from Mark. Ultimatum Carbon Gyuto 245mm is 200 USD. But then again Im not sure about the quality on that knife.
Marko will make you a 52100 with superior quality for around 500 USD.

Japanese knives often uses blue or white steel, gets insane sharp, but edge retention is not that impressive. Needs babying :)

Larrin
04-23-2012, 03:51 PM
The best steel is Interstitial Free. Don't buy a knife made of anything else.

DevinT
04-23-2012, 03:59 PM
The best steel is Interstitial Free. Don't buy a knife made of anything else.

What are interstitials?

Hoss

Don Nguyen
04-23-2012, 04:22 PM
?

http://www.answers.com/topic/interstitial-free-steel

oivind_dahle
04-23-2012, 04:24 PM
Today I learned something new!


interstitial-free steel [‚int·ər′stish·əl ′frē ′stēl]
(metallurgy)
An aluminum-killed steel with an extra-low carbon content, nominally 0.005%, in which the residual carbon is combined with niobium (columbium), titanium, or some similar element with a strong affinity for carbon.


I still haven't a clue about it. I read about micro cracking in AISI 52100 Steel, but I felt like this reading about it:
http://www.thefinancialblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/monkey-computer.jpg

Larrin is perhaps nr1 when talking about steel types. I just trust his words, without ever understanding them.

SpikeC
04-23-2012, 04:26 PM
I smell insincerity.......

obtuse
04-23-2012, 04:30 PM
White no.1 look no further

Dave Martell
04-23-2012, 04:44 PM
Unobtanium


BTW, that's the name of my new knife line coming out in the Fall of 2019

tk59
04-23-2012, 04:47 PM
I think what Larrin wants to say is that the "best steel" question is like the best car, band, neighborhood, cereal, lollipop questions. Your best bet is to check out something like Devin's steel thread and get a steel that is best suited for the types of characteristics you are looking for. There will always be trade-offs. First, you need to decide if you like stain resistance. Then you need to decide whether you want ultimate sharpness. Then, wear resistance. Then you need to look at toughness. A poor understanding of how these qualities play out in the kitchen is why we have chipped debas, lol. Lower skill means toughness and edge stability is most important. That means lower carbon content and softer blades: AEB-L, white 2, etc. If you are a barbeque guy, maybe you want wear resistance and you go for DT-swr. If you are a sushi master, maybe you want ultimate sharpness and some wear resistance and hardness at the cost of toughness so you go for white 1 at 63+ hrc, etc., etc.

David Metzger
04-23-2012, 05:22 PM
I guess when you say carbon steels you are looking at non stainless steels, is that right? Most people want a steel that can get rather hard and has fine grain to make for ease of sharpening, very sharp edge and edge holding abilities. Steels like 1084, 1095, W1, W2, 52100 and 01 are popular for kitchen knives and readily available in the US. White, Blue and Aogami Super are Hitachi steels and very difficult to get in the US unless already made into a knife.

There is a lot of info on these steels on the net. For stainless you would want something like AEB-L, 13c26, or a PM technology steel.

David

Larrin
04-23-2012, 05:40 PM
Interstitials are atoms that sit in the interstitial sites in an atomic lattice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_defect Intersitial sites are basically the gaps between the atoms. The most common interstitials in steel are carbon and nitrogen. Interstitial free steels are super low carbon along with an addition of something like niobium or titanium to form Nb(C,N) or Ti(C,N) to get rid of the rest of it.

mpukas
04-23-2012, 05:42 PM
edge retention and sharpness i work in a catering hall and go thru 10 cases of vegetables on a Tuesday easy so im looking for something that can keep up

Steel comes down to so much personal preference, and many previsou posts above state that. Steel is also only one aspect of what makes a knife,a nd for most of use it's farther down the priority list - there are other factors that have to be "right" even before steel comes into play.

Personally, I really like AS as it gets sharp easily and has good retentnion, but if it's really hard like 64-65, and with low bevel angles, it can be chippy. But I can't stand an AS knife clad w/ crappy iron cladding that rusts and reats easily w/ food (read: Moritaka, and much as I love 'em), and there aren't many options for a SS clad AS knife. PM steels also have good retention and get sharp, not as sharp as white, and require a bit more work and skill to get sharp.

Perhaps a better question for you to ask is what knife is best for me, given my preferences, budget and the tasks I intend to put it through? mpp

Larrin
04-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Oh I forgot to say that IF steels would be terrible for knives.

SpikeC
04-23-2012, 05:49 PM
What? Just because they don't have carbon???

Eamon Burke
04-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Yeah, Papazaza, at least give us a knife type so we have something to argue about.

Namaxy
04-23-2012, 06:11 PM
Two questions...which I hope aren't ridiculously ignorant:

I have aogami super in a Takeda - I'm very fond of it and it does have great edge retention. I've seen AS as the core for a damascus clad knife, and of course Kurouchi style like my Takeda. Is there such a thing as a honyaki AS knife without the Kurouchi finish?

Secondly, what are people's opinions about ZDP-189?

Thanks

Lefty
04-23-2012, 06:14 PM
Unobtanium

Great stuff, but awfully hard to come by....

papazaza
04-23-2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah, Papazaza, at least give us a knife type so we have something to argue about.

ok what would you like 2 know ?

Eamon Burke
04-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Give us a knife type. Like "best steel for a chef's knife in a pro kitchen" or "best steel for a home butcher" or "best steel for a fishing boat" or "best steel for a yanagiba in an American sushi bar".

Rottman
04-23-2012, 06:27 PM
and there aren't many options for a SS clad AS knife.
Carter, Hiromoto

tk59
04-23-2012, 06:29 PM
...Is there such a thing as a honyaki AS knife without the Kurouchi finish?

Secondly, what are people's opinions about ZDP-189?...

On the first one, I don't see why not but I haven't seen one, myself. ZDP-189 is a nice steel but it is prone to chipping and many claim that it loses it's initial keeness more quickly than most other steels. I like it. RRLOVER has a nice blade he put up for sale a while back. Kinda pricey but it's a nice knife.

papazaza
04-23-2012, 06:47 PM
ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen

oivind_dahle
04-23-2012, 06:49 PM
There is no best.
Its all about what you're looking for.

papazaza
04-23-2012, 06:52 PM
edge retention and sharpness.

El Pescador
04-23-2012, 06:53 PM
That's easy...For me its Devin Thomas' Super Wear Resistant or his Carbon Mystery Steel. The Mystery Carbon holds an edge for what seems like ever. I cut 2,000+ pounds of cooked lamb with a bbq bark with it only touching it up 1 once on a strop. TK59 was there for a day of cutting so he can attest.

Pesky

James
04-23-2012, 06:56 PM
ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen

ok, I think it would be helpful to address the following:
1) what is your budget?
2) how many hours do you expect to be cutting per day/how often can you do touchups or give your knife a full sharpening session?
3) carbon or stainless?
4) what kind of board do you cut on?
5) what is your normal cutting style (push cut, rock chop, etc)?

Like so many others have said, there is no "best"; some steels are more suitable to certain tasks than others. Personally, I think you're getting too carried away with steel; it's only one part of the equation. Consider knife geometry and profile. I would prefer a knife with a mediocre steel, but excellent geometry and profile to a clunker made out of some top-notch steel. Oh and the performance of the steel is very strongly influenced by the quality of the heat treat.

ajhuff
04-23-2012, 06:57 PM
Interatitial free steel! ROTFLMFAO!!!

I'll say it again: steel is over rated.

Buy a knife, not a steel.

-AJ

ThEoRy
04-23-2012, 07:02 PM
ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen

Oh ok why didn't you say so? I would have to go with Blue#1, Blue#2, White#1, White#2, Aogami SS, VG10, SG2, Aeb-l, 52100, W2, ZDP-189, Ginsanko and R2. But that's it!

Seriously though, I can't say any one thing is best. They all have great qualities.

markenki
04-23-2012, 07:05 PM
Carter, Hiromoto
Carter no longer makes AS knives.

From http://www.cartercutlery.com/NewsLetterArchive/2012-01-26_NewsArchive.html:
At Carter Cutlery, after having forged and completed more than 16,000 blades in 24 years out of both steels, Murray has decided to drop blue steel from his repertoire in favor of dedicating the rest of his career to truly mastering white steel and harnessing its full potential.

SpikeC
04-23-2012, 07:07 PM
What's wrong with O1???

Eamon Burke
04-23-2012, 07:09 PM
Japanese, Aogami Super.
American, 52100.
Stainless, s35vn.

Of course you need a good heat treat.

kalaeb
04-23-2012, 07:14 PM
For gyuto, I dislike white 1 and 2, so much so I have sold off all my white steel knives. The retention is just not that good. On a yanigaba, maybe but with a work horse gyuto you really want some edge longevity. If you want carbon, go AS, or if you can go higher end W2 or 52100. If you want stainless, I have had good results with AEBL, but that could be because it's a DT.

Good luck

papazaza
04-23-2012, 07:16 PM
yea i know they all have their good nd bad quality's .....i guess what i was looking for was a quick explanations as to what made each one one good and why these were the top ones

DevinT
04-23-2012, 07:41 PM
This might help.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4772-what-steels-and-why

Hoss

memorael
04-23-2012, 09:22 PM
Seriously you will do fine with just about any SS wa knife. Tadatsuna, DT mid tech AEB-L , A type, Suisin... those come to mind but they all have a basically all round characteristic to them. I would personally go with the Tadatsuna or the A type if budget is a problem and a DT AEB-L if it isn't.

mattrud
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
This might help.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4772-what-steels-and-why

Hoss

I have always loved this thread.

cnochef
04-23-2012, 09:51 PM
If you are looking for a wa-handled knife, then I would recommend a Takeda in AS steel. It is 100% hand made, is easy to sharpen, is extremely sharp and stays that way for a long long time. You can refresh the edge quickly and easily with a strop. The kurouchi finish protects most of the blade from corrosion, so you only have to worry about the edge really. The blades are supermodel thin and make for precision cutting. These knives are also great compared to other carbon steels as they are not as reactive when cutting onions or acidic fruit.

The only drawback is their rustic appearance, which can freak out folks who don`t know about them.

If that is a concern, I would recommend a Devin Thomas gyuto in AEB-L steel, which behaves very close to a good carbon steel.

NO ChoP!
04-23-2012, 10:22 PM
Semi stainless is a good balance for a pro kitchen....

labor of love
04-23-2012, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE=kalaeb;102046]For gyuto, I dislike white 1 and 2, so much so I have sold off all my white steel knives. The retention is just not that good. On a yanigaba, maybe but with a work horse gyuto you really want some edge longevity. If you want carbon, go AS, or if you can go higher end W2 or 52100. If you want stainless, I have had good results with AEBL, but that could be becauseit's a DT.

I have come to the exact same conclusion. Work is hectic and the edges on my white steels werent lasting long enough. My Suisin Inox Honyaki is my new "go to" knife. along with augami super and blue steel. Atleast for now.

ThEoRy
04-23-2012, 10:42 PM
For gyuto I like R2.

papazaza
04-24-2012, 12:38 AM
ok so where can a find some of these knifes?

labor of love
04-24-2012, 12:52 AM
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/ashi-hamono.html the stainless knifes are AEB-L
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri.html great blue steel and augami super steel knives.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKICarboNextSeries.html bargain friendly semi stainless.
konosuke hd is another popular semi stainless that cost a little more.
also maybe check out the sakai yusuke store on ebay for more swedish steel knives. Maybe you should just shoot jon at japaneseknifeimports an email and he can help you with your knife selection.

Eamon Burke
04-24-2012, 02:31 AM
i guess what i was looking for was a quick explanations as to ... why these were the top ones

Personal bias. The ones I listed are because I liked them when I used them, I liked the way they take a patina, hold an edge, how they sound when sharpening, how the edge refreshes, etc. We're just splitting hairs at this point, but that's what we are here for, after all. If you are looking for good performance, think makers, not steels. The heat treat is so much more important. Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?

GlassEye
04-24-2012, 02:43 AM
Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?
Interesting analogy, I like it.

TB_London
04-24-2012, 08:02 AM
Some more reading for you: (hope it's ok with the mods to link off forum)

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/articles/kkchoser/kksteel.shtml

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/809833/
(scroll down to steel section)

ajhuff
04-24-2012, 09:40 AM
These topics always make me bang my head. Maybe it's my background but I just don't get people's frequent recommendations regarding heat treatment. As a consumer you have no way to quantify or qualify the heat treatment of a knife. The knife either works to your satisfaction or it doesn't. People should recommend knives based on performance criteria they liked, not the steel or suggestions of proper heat treatment.

Buy a good knife. The good knives are made by people using good steel and good heat treatment. The ones that don't, don't stay in business.

-AJ

papazaza
04-24-2012, 06:54 PM
n
Personal bias. The ones I listed are because I liked them when I used them, I liked the way they take a patina, hold an edge, how they sound when sharpening, how the edge refreshes, etc. We're just splitting hairs at this point, but that's what we are here for, after all. If you are looking for good performance, think makers, not steels. The heat treat is so much more important. Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?

yea that was another question i was gonna ask ...like if company 1A makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and company 2B makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and the both use blue steel #1 how come one charges more money then the other

Pensacola Tiger
04-24-2012, 07:42 PM
n

yea that was another question i was gonna ask ...like if company 1A makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and company 2B makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and the both use blue steel #1 how come one charges more money then the other

The same reason a Porsche costs more than a VW. Yes, they will both get you to your destination, but the difference is in the details. Same thing applies to knives, or it usually does.

Rick

papazaza
04-24-2012, 07:50 PM
so 1 of the things that makes 1 knife more expensive then another work be the heat treatment ?

SpikeC
04-24-2012, 07:56 PM
The thing that makes some knives more expensive is that the good ones are quenched in peasant bodies.

Crothcipt
04-24-2012, 08:02 PM
:spitcoffee:

Pensacola Tiger
04-24-2012, 08:04 PM
so 1 of the things that makes 1 knife more expensive then another work be the heat treatment ?

The skill of the person making the knife in regard to heat treatment and grinding, the attention to detail that is spent on fit and finish, the degree of polish given to the side of the blade, the materials that the handle is made from, all enter into the price equation. The reputation of the smith is also a factor. In the end, the steel the knife is make from is the least of these factors.

Eamon Burke
04-24-2012, 08:56 PM
:plus1:
Then there is always "what people will pay". See: Misono prices.



Buy a good knife. The good knives are made by people using good steel and good heat treatment. The ones that don't, don't stay in business.

-AJ

I don't agree on that one. Farberware? This guy (http://rhinoknives.com/styled/Rhino-Chop-RhinoKnives-Knife.html)?

Crothcipt
04-24-2012, 09:02 PM
:whyclick::butbutbut::no:

Am I the only one here that wants to have one of his knives, just to trash?

SpikeC
04-24-2012, 09:06 PM
+100.

SpikeC
04-24-2012, 09:07 PM
How do you trash trash?

ajhuff
04-24-2012, 09:49 PM
:plus1:
Then there is always "what people will pay". See: Misono prices.



I don't agree on that one. Farberware? This guy (http://rhinoknives.com/styled/Rhino-Chop-RhinoKnives-Knife.html)?

Ah ah ah, I said first, "buy a good knife." If you start there, then concerns about steel and heat treatment are meaningless. More so since Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated. :happymug:

-AJ

Pensacola Tiger
04-24-2012, 10:41 PM
... Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated.

-AJ

Huh? Maybe not forged, but they are certainly heat treated.

Andrew H
04-24-2012, 10:43 PM
Ah ah ah, I said first, "buy a good knife." If you start there, then concerns about steel and heat treatment are meaningless. More so since Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated. :happymug:

-AJ

?? Do you mean the steel is heat treated before it's stamped? Obviously the steel that the knives are made of was HT'd at one point.

memorael
04-24-2012, 11:01 PM
The thing that makes some knives more expensive is that the good ones are quenched in peasant bodies.

Isn't this true of Katanas? I remember hearing something about some swords being quenched this way... maybe there is something to it, need to talk to DT about maybe trying it out with some volunteers.

ajhuff
04-24-2012, 11:03 PM
?? Do you mean the steel is heat treated before it's stamped? Obviously the steel that the knives are made of was HT'd at one point.

Obviously? Why do you say that?

-AJ

DevinT
04-24-2012, 11:04 PM
Not me, thanks.

I only quench in the urine of a red headed holy man.

Hoss

kalaeb
04-24-2012, 11:09 PM
Not me, thanks.

I only quench in the urine of a red headed holy man.

Hoss

Sounds tough. Can't be many of those in Panaca.

SpikeC
04-24-2012, 11:19 PM
You have to mail order.....

ajhuff
04-25-2012, 01:37 AM
Ok here is why I don't think it is obvious that these cheap stamped knives, Ronco, Farberware, etc are heat treated.

1) They are stamped. Key to stamping is to not have a hard material, it has to be easily deformed.

2) If they were heat treated after stamping, as thin as the cheap knives are, they would be warped all to hell.

3) You guys are always complaining how gummy soft these knives are and how they don't hold an edge. If they are a martensitic steel (like 420) fully annealed they are around 25 HRc. Somebody like Dexter may take the time to Q&T which will push it up to around 40, but that will be done prior to stamping and isn't really the type of heat treating we are talking about. But if some of these cheap knives are made out of classic 18/8 (like 302), and I don't know if they are or aren't, that material is available cold rolled full hard with a HRc of about 40. No extra HT needed.

What's a Ronco or Farberware made of?

-AJ