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View Full Version : Which of your expensive knives disappointed you(or steel)?



andoniminev
06-05-2012, 02:31 PM
Wonder if anyone out there has been disappointed by an expensive knife and which brand was it?

unkajonet
06-05-2012, 02:34 PM
Define "expensive."

Kagayaki VG-10 gyuoto. I think it's pretty much turned me off to VG-10 for life. It seemed expensive at the time, since it was my first gyuto...

Vertigo
06-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Hiromoto AS. Got it through a group buy with a rehandle by Dave, and while the handle work was excellent, the knife itself just felt awful to use. So not only was it a disappointment, it was a disappointment I'd spent months waiting for and lusting after.

tk59
06-05-2012, 02:43 PM
My biggest disappointments have been custom jobs and Shigefusa. They just didn't cut as well as I'd hoped they would. (Hiro AS was a little underwhelming, as well, now that I think about it.)

andoniminev
06-05-2012, 02:43 PM
I am myself a bit doubtful about the PM and never had a PM knife. If I go for one it should be Cowry or ZDP but they dont come cheap. SRS 15 is a cheaper option to start with :)

ThEoRy
06-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Hiromoto AS. Got it through a group buy with a rehandle by Dave, and while the handle work was excellent, the knife itself just felt awful to use. So not only was it a disappointment, it was a disappointment I'd spent months waiting for and lusting after.

Did you have it thinned or was it just the stock grind?

tk59
06-05-2012, 02:45 PM
I am myself a bit doubtful about the PM and never had a PM knife. If I go for one it should be Cowry or ZDP but they dont come cheap. SRS 15 is a cheaper option to start with :)What characteristic(s) is it you are doubtful about?

andoniminev
06-05-2012, 02:45 PM
My biggest disappointments have been custom jobs and Shigefusa. They just didn't cut as well as I'd hoped they would. (Hiro AS was a little underwhelming, as well, now that I think about it.)
Which is your best cutter, interesting to know

Vertigo
06-05-2012, 02:46 PM
Did you have it thinned or was it just the stock grind?
Stock grind. Dave wouldn't do thinning during the second group buy. :(

andoniminev
06-05-2012, 02:49 PM
Edge holding and chipping are my biggest concerns. I have knives in white 1 and 2, blue 1and 2 and spicy swedish and never had an issue with chipping. How do these compare to ZDP and Cowry

ThEoRy
06-05-2012, 02:50 PM
I've used both grinds and while the stock grind is a bit of a clunker, Dave's work turned it into a fantastic cutter. Hint, hint.

Vertigo
06-05-2012, 02:51 PM
I've used both grinds and while the stock grind is a bit of a clunker, Dave's work turned it into a fantastic cutter. Hint, hint.

I sold it within 4 hours of getting it. I seriously enjoyed using my Henckels more than that knife.

tk59
06-05-2012, 02:53 PM
Which is your best cutter, interesting to knowThat's a tough question. Different knives cut a little differently. The other problem with answering the question is I often modify my knives in one way or another. If I could only have one stock knife and not allow myself to change it in any way... I'd probably choose a Gesshin/Ashi or Suisin but it would be a tough call. I haven't used my Gengetsu enough to allow it into the running but that might be the one. If I could only take one custom job, it would have to be a Devin... or a Rottman... or a tk59, lol.

tk59
06-05-2012, 02:57 PM
Edge holding and chipping are my biggest concerns. I have knives in white 1 and 2, blue 1and 2 and spicy swedish and never had an issue with chipping. How do these compare to ZDP and CowryThat's a complicated question. I will say that I have some PM steel blade and I don't have a problem with chipping. Edge holding is far superior to white and blue steel, in general. A lot of it depends on the angle at which you are sharpening and the hardness of the blades. Harder is chippier. In general, the big advantage to carbon steels is edge keeness and ease of sharpening.

G-rat
06-05-2012, 03:02 PM
Stock grind. Dave wouldn't do thinning during the second group buy. :(

I have thinned my bosses Hiromoto out considerably and finally have it sharpened where the AS holds and takes an edge like I feel it should. Took about 8 sessions starting at 400 and thinning each time. Cuts everything like buttah.

Sorry didn't finish the thread...saw that Theory said the same thing...not trying to beat a dead horse.

jm2hill
06-05-2012, 03:04 PM
Define "expensive."

Kagayaki VG-10 gyuoto. I think it's pretty much turned me off to VG-10 for life. It seemed expensive at the time, since it was my first gyuto...

+1 but was tojiro DP. Just not a fan of VG-10.

clayton
06-05-2012, 03:06 PM
The only one that ever really disappointed was a WildFire Cutlery Thai cleaver I ordered many years ago. The bolster was loose, the Handle shrunken, and the blade was essentially a piece of flat stock with an edge added to the last millimeter with no taper in any direction. It was pathetic. Sent it back and got a replacement that at least had the bolster fixed and handle fixed. The rest of the knife had the same issues.

tk59
06-05-2012, 03:06 PM
I have thinned my bosses Hiromoto out considerably and finally have it sharpened where the AS holds and takes an edge like I feel it should. Took about 8 sessions starting at 400 and thinning each time. Cuts everything like buttah.Sounds almost like you bought a blank and ground in your own geometry. To me, that means Hiros are stinkers, OOTB just like A-types (at least the old ones). The difference is a lot of folks tout Hiros but everybody knows you have to thin an A-type.

SameGuy
06-05-2012, 03:16 PM
I've so far only bought into the Masamoto mystique, and I'm very pleased. Thankfully I'll now avoid the Hiromoto mystique. LOL

jayhay
06-05-2012, 03:16 PM
VG-10 Kasumi. Bought it years ago when not knowing better and getting into Japanese knives. Really don't like the thing. But then again, I've never held a Damascus VG-10 that I've liked.

cwrightthruya
06-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Although not what I would consider expensive by todays standards....My very first real Japanese knife was a Moritaka 180mm AS Santoku, and it cost me more than I had paid for any other knife up to that time. It was a massive let down. Not only did it chip on everything, but it had some sort of coating that made the food taste horrible. When I finally got the coating off, the KU finish came off quite abruptly afterward. Then once I started sharpening it, a huge hole near the heel appeared. It was just one problem after another.

Benuser
06-05-2012, 06:11 PM
Define "expensive."

Kagayaki VG-10 gyuoto. I think it's pretty much turned me off to VG-10 for life. It seemed expensive at the time, since it was my first gyuto...

They were having a bad day I guess. My Kagayaki VG-10 is made of the best VG-10 I've ever seen, good HT I suppose. Great F&F in its price range. Sharpening VG-10 is an art in itself I must admit, and not that rewarding. Still love it for acid fruit; don't want to dull my carbon favourites...

ThEoRy
06-05-2012, 06:35 PM
Although not what I would consider expensive by todays standards....My very first real Japanese knife was a Moritaka 180mm AS Santoku, and it cost me more than I had paid for any other knife up to that time. It was a massive let down. Not only did it chip on everything, but it had some sort of coating that made the food taste horrible. When I finally got the coating off, the KU finish came off quite abruptly afterward. Then once I started sharpening it, a huge hole near the heel appeared. It was just one problem after another.

Wabi sabi bro. :thumbsup:

Vertigo
06-05-2012, 06:37 PM
Wabi sabi bro. :thumbsup:

http://www.souppilgrim.com/orglif/taka.jpg

kalaeb
06-05-2012, 06:40 PM
Carter...three times! Each time I thought I just got a dud and they were so well praised I tried again, and again... Underwhelming and way over hyped. (the blue was okay, but the white bites)

Vertigo
06-05-2012, 06:43 PM
Carter...three times! Each time I thought I just got a dud and they were so well praised I tried again, and again... Underwhelming and way over hyped. (the blue was okay, but the white bites)

I maintain to the day that TK's 270(ish) Carter HG is the best cutter I've ever used. Maybe I have low expectations?

James
06-05-2012, 07:11 PM
A takagi honyaki (blue #1); cheap handle and rivals the german knives in terms of thickness behind the edge. I've been thinning it out and cutting performance has improved significantly, but I still have a ways to go before it can even match my ichimonji tkc

labor of love
06-05-2012, 08:39 PM
Masamoto HC. I was still using my mac pro and tojiro dp at the time and was looking to upgrade and try out carbon at the same time. Really didnt like the handle on the HC, it was way too heavy...I wasnt nearly as good at sharpening then as I am now-maybe i never unlocked its full potential. who knows.

JohnyChai
06-05-2012, 09:24 PM
This may come with some criticism...DT ITK 270. The steel cut performed well, as did the grind, but this knife's specific profile was off. One of the board members referred to it as "clunking"...

...I'm sure this is not an issue with Devin's knives in general but sadly for this knife it was.

sachem allison
06-05-2012, 10:17 PM
Ray Rogers 10" custom chef knife in 01. Spent a lot of time working with him on it and when I got it it looked okay, the handle was a giant block and the blade was flat ground, no distal taper, wedged cutting garlic and every thing stuck to it. when you put it on the stones it felt sticky like taffy. emailed him about it and never ever got a reply back. have had it for 15 years now and haven't used it but a half dozen times. It sucks, the matching paring knife to this day was the best paring knife I have ever used. (the ex got it though) go figure.

JohnyChai
06-05-2012, 10:44 PM
This may come with some criticism...DT ITK 270. The steel cut performed well, as did the grind, but this knife's specific profile was off. One of the board members referred to it as "clunking"...

...I'm sure this is not an issue with Devin's knives in general but sadly for this knife it was.

Okay, have been informed that this is a grind issue...stand corrected!

Also want to to add that this knife's ability to keep and edge was remarkable...

Namaxy
06-05-2012, 10:50 PM
Konosuke ZDP 189 with a custom handle. Handle is beautiful, but the blade won't take the edge I want. Now..to be fair, I bought this shortly before my accident and became the one armed bandit. I can cut like a mother, but sharpening is out for now. Sent it to a certain 'leaves in a garden philosopher/sharpener (let's not make this about him or the obvious source where I bought the knife)' and he didn't make it any better.

Since I can't sharpen it right now, I brought it to my resident sushi chef knife nut. He's gotten the most out of it so far, but it won't stay sharp. By way of contrast, the edge he put on my Takedas and Shigs lasts for days of use.

Since I'm in a sling for a month more, I'd love to send the ZDP to one of our experts and see if the thing can actually be the laser it's supposed to be......or just a dud.

tk59
06-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Konosuke ZDP 189 with a custom handle. Handle is beautiful, but the blade won't take the edge I want. Now..to be fair, I bought this shortly before my accident and became the one armed bandit. I can cut like a mother, but sharpening is out for now. Sent it to a certain 'leaves in a garden philosopher/sharpener (let's not make this about him or the obvious source where I bought the knife)' and he didn't make it any better.

Since I can't sharpen it right now, I brought it to my resident sushi chef knife nut. He's gotten the most out of it so far, but it won't stay sharp. By way of contrast, the edge he put on my Takedas and Shigs lasts for days of use.

Since I'm in a sling for a month more, I'd love to send the ZDP to one of our experts and see if the thing can actually be the laser it's supposed to be......or just a dud.

What sort of edge is it you are looking for?

ThEoRy
06-05-2012, 11:46 PM
I would consider putting a highly asymmetrical edge on that bad boy, like 90/10 even. :D

RRLOVER
06-06-2012, 12:02 AM
TAKEDA:puke::puke:

Marko Tsourkan
06-06-2012, 12:07 AM
Haha, it seems like Takeda is Moritaka in disguise, at least the ones I have seen. I am will you on this, Mario.

For me it was Watanabe custom Kiritsuke shaped gyuto.

Out of ten I got, majority had overgridns, were thicker than promised, the fit and finish was not as promised and that really killed my interest in Japanese knives (Shigefusa remains one exception).

M

Tristan
06-06-2012, 12:48 AM
Haha, it seems like Takeda is Moritaka in disguise, at least the ones I have seen. I am will you on this, Mario.

For me it was Watanabe custom Kiritsuke shaped gyuto.

Out of ten I got, majority had overgridns, were thicker than promised, the fit and finish was not as promised and that really killed my interest in Japanese knives (Shigefusa remains one exception).

M

Just curious whether that statement of yours encompasses Dois and Masamoto (I know the Masamotos are not single craftsmen) too? Because of all the knives I've tried which are stock from Japan, these two makers in particular were the only ones whose fit and finish stood out.

Although one Doi that I asked for came with two micro chips on the edge... though I suspect it did not leave his forge that way.

Marko Tsourkan
06-06-2012, 01:00 AM
Well, my statement was pretty general, but it reflected what has built over time.

I have owned knives of decent and great quality (though not perfect knives) and knives of poor quality. While customizing, I have aslo seen knives from many makers that had faults in workmanship (some just cosmetic, like poor fit and finish, some more serious, like overgrinds)

It's not for me an idea that a knife is a tool and as long as it cuts, everything else doesn't matter. I like Shigefusa's philosophy - always send out your best work and Apple's philosophy - put your products over profits.

Doi has a great finish, but as a knife, it never grew on me, and neither had Masamoto. Watanabe was my first knife to get, and was also my last knife to get.

I only own one Japanese knife now - Shigefusa yanagiba and this one is here to stay.


M

Eamon Burke
06-06-2012, 01:18 AM
Bummer hearing about the Hiro AS. The two I've handled that Dave thinned I never got to use, because they were pristine new(apparently never used).

They made me want to cut **** up so bad. Like, I love getting them in because I love handling them and looking at them.



My biggest disappointment(of pricey stuff that failed to be worthwhile) was the Fowler passaround in wrought iron. It was the first 52100 knife I ever used, but that wrought iron ruined everything. It was like when you try to make a new cocktail but end up making what tastes like mopwater. So disappointing, the materials are so cool...but now we know why people don't use wrought iron in a kitchen.

jm2hill
06-06-2012, 01:31 AM
Marko, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm challenging you or anything because its not my intention at all As I do think you are quite knowledgable. I am just really interested in your response as you're one of the only people on this board that doesn't use the japanese stuff (sans shig) but I am just wondering what knives you own now if you don't like the japanese ones?

My next question is, what would you recommend to someone who had a lower end budget for a good knife?

Marko Tsourkan
06-06-2012, 02:07 AM
No offense taken, on the contrary, a good question.

I ended up using just my own knives, most that I ground while practicing making knives. They are not perfect,but they are in good steels: 52100 and PM and with a pretty good heat treatment, and I ground them to my preferences for height, weight and thinness. I own three knives now, 225mm, 240mm and 255mm and I periodically use my wife's 180mm gyuto that I made for her.

Edge retention matters to me, so If I were to look for a knife from a Japanese maker, I would look for knives from the likes of Yoshikane. His A2 core knives offer a pretty decent edge retention. Heiji is also using A2 (or appears to be using it, without advertizing it), but he is pricier than Yoshikane and his knives are heavier.

If edge retention is not an issue, there are a number of Japanese knives in mid price range that should be pretty good. Gengetsu (the way tk59 reviewed it) and others.

As for lower end knives, I don't know. The thing is, Japanese wholesale prices are much lower than retail, so if you are buying a $100 retail, you can imagine what a wholesale price is, and that is really a value of a knife. It is hard to expect quality in that price range.

I think you probably will be better off buying MR knife in a good steel with a decent heat treatment and put some money in tuning it up. This would be my (and subjective) preference, so take it for what it is.

M

tk59
06-06-2012, 02:23 AM
Okay, have been informed that this is a grind issue...stand corrected!...The clunking could be due to either the profile or the grind, depending on how you look at it.