PDA

View Full Version : No Burr



ajhuff
06-06-2012, 01:29 PM
I tried searching for this info but "No Burr" brings up a lot of hits!

I am struggling to get a burr on my 1000/6000 King stone.

I am starting with a Chosera 400 and had no problems getting a burr on both sides of the blade. On the 1000 side, it seems like all I am doing is getting a mirror polish on the edge. But no burr.

So far I have had the same consistent experience with a Kikuichi-monji paring knife, Nenohi petty and Suisin INOX honayaki suji. I think all 3 of those are pretty hard knives.

Basically I am stroking on the 1000 until I get bored and stopping. I have not progressed up to the 6000 yet. I do my knives one all on one stone at a time.

The knives have gone from dull to hair shaving sharp so I am getting that progress.

I don't want to spend half a day on each side of a knife waiting to get a burr. Am I always supposed to get a burr?

Thanks,

-AJ

mikemac
06-06-2012, 01:33 PM
I keep a king 1k/6k at the beach house, and use it on a Hiro G3, CCK, Wustoff santoku and Sab slicer.....I can usually raise a burr along the entire length of the blade within 10 min.
I'd suggest you lift the spine a hair

Benuser
06-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Verify with a marker that you reached the very edge. Different stones, different body position, and the angle is slightly different.

Andrew H
06-06-2012, 01:47 PM
Are you using the magic marker 'trick' to see if you are hitting the edge?

bluntcut
06-06-2012, 01:55 PM
...it seems like all I am doing is getting a mirror polish on the edge.

Rare but could it be, not enough pressure?

wsfarrell
06-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Some commenters seem to have missed OP's point that his knives go from dull to shaving sharp: of course he's reaching the edge. I haven't looked for a burr for a couple of years now, and my blades are also satisfyingly sharp. I think when your technique gets to a certain point, burrs become irrelevant. They may be there at lower grits, they may not. The end result is what matters.

Pensacola Tiger
06-06-2012, 03:16 PM
Some commenters seem to have missed OP's point that his knives go from dull to shaving sharp: of course he's reaching the edge. I haven't looked for a burr for a couple of years now, and my blades are also satisfyingly sharp. I think when your technique gets to a certain point, burrs become irrelevant. They may be there at lower grits, they may not. The end result is what matters.

I beg to differ. "Shaving sharp" is a pretty meaningless term. You can shave your arm with a 400 grit edge. The OP may or may not be hitting the edge at higher grits.

1000 grit burrs can be hard to feel, so that may be the issue, and if that's the case, the OP does need to use the marker "trick" to make sure he is hitting the edge.

Rick

tk59
06-06-2012, 03:19 PM
If the burr is really thin, you may not be feeling it but it will be there. Check it out under a loupe.

markenki
06-06-2012, 03:44 PM
One of the advantages of carbon knives is that the marker trick is automatically built in: the patina.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 03:47 PM
Marker comes off all the way to the edge. I'm pretty satisfied with that. But I certainly cannot feel a burr. :-(

-AJ

NO ChoP!
06-06-2012, 03:56 PM
I think it has to do with the king 1000. It's a very muddy clay like stone. You can build up quite a polish from that mud...

Maybe, after your done on the 1000, rinse it clean and strop on it with just a splash of water....

Benuser
06-06-2012, 04:03 PM
One of the advantages of carbon knives is that the marker trick is automatically built in: the patina.
May I respectfully disagree? If the very edge is hit with the 400-stone, but not with the 1000, you won't see
a patina yet on the unreached part which has been freshly abraded by the 400.

Pensacola Tiger
06-06-2012, 04:04 PM
Marker comes off all the way to the edge. I'm pretty satisfied with that. But I certainly cannot feel a burr. :-(

-AJ

If you are hitting the edge, then as wsfarrell suggested, don't sweat it. All the burr serves to do is give you tactile confirmation that you've hit the edge, and if you are getting visual confirmation that's all you need.

Rick

Korin_Mari
06-06-2012, 05:16 PM
I've had a similar complaint from customers regarding the King stones. They told me that the stones wears down before their knives get sharp. When I asked Mr. Sugai, he told me that the king stones haven't changed what their material is made of, so they're not really up to date with current harder material knives. I assume they would do wonders on carbon knives or softer materials, but maybe just not for your particular knife.

If you want the burr, you may want to try a lower grit stone and work your way to the #1000 grit stones. This is what Mr. Sugai does to make sharpening easier. :)

mano
06-06-2012, 05:28 PM
Jordan may be getting a burr but doesn't realize it. I was in the same boat as him until Dave Martell found very narrow burrs along the edge of my knives. Until he had me feel them I would't have known, but after stropping they were gone and the knives definitely performed better. I thought burrs were wire sized strips of metal easily seen by the naked eye.

Vertigo
06-06-2012, 05:43 PM
I've found the swarf buildup on my fingers from certain stones can greatly dampen my ability to feel burrs, especially smaller ones, and often have to scrub my fingertips clean to check my progress. Only with really muddy stones though and only because after 20 years of manning a flattop grill, my fingers are pretty much numb anyways.

tk59
06-06-2012, 05:59 PM
Jordan may be getting a burr but doesn't realize it...Yup.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 06:26 PM
You guys can call me AJ, it sounds friendlier than OP. :D

Good info Mari. Perhaps I need to look into a harder stone?

-AJ

tk59
06-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Why would you want to raise another burr after your initial 400/500 grit burr? If it's getting sharp but it's so fine/thin that you can't feel it, I would say you're doing a great job. Any further burr formation is merely wasting metal or completely removing deeper scratches that you need to keep your edge aggressive longer.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 06:47 PM
I thought you were supposed to raise a Burr with each progressive stone?

-AJ

Andrew H
06-06-2012, 07:12 PM
I thought you were supposed to raise a Burr with each progressive stone?

-AJ

Nope, only once.

99Limited
06-06-2012, 07:51 PM
The purpose of the burr is to prove you have reached the intersection of the two planes on the blade. After that you work to refine the edge which you can either wear the burr away through progressively finer stones, pull the knife edge through felt, cork or what ever to strip off the burr or put a micro-bevel on the edge which will kind of cut the burr off.

Benuser
06-06-2012, 08:10 PM
That's all true, and nobody will make me believe a burr to have disappeared spontaniously on a 1000 stone.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 08:55 PM
Nope, only once.

Well then I guess problem solved. So if you don't sharpen until you develop a Burr on each progressive stone, how do you know when to move on?

I must have really misunderstood the process because I have been trying to flip the Burr on each stone for years!

-AJ

99Limited
06-06-2012, 09:21 PM
... how do you know when to move on?
-AJ

What I do is periodically stop, wipe the blade dry and test the blade on newspaper. What I look for is how easily the knife slices through a page and I also listen as the paper is being cut. I want to be able to slice a page, which is the easiest cut on my coarsest stone. I may also be able to push-cut at this point but I'll get hung up somewhere along the way. After moving on to the finer stones, I'll be able to easily push-cut a page and then for my final test I want to be able to pull-cut a page by holding the blade in a fixed position and pull the paper up. While I cutting up the paper, the sounds I'm looking for go from almost a paper tearing sound to finally the gentle hiss a tea kettle makes before it comes to a full boil.

Andrew H
06-06-2012, 09:29 PM
Yup, like 99 I check often with printer paper or newspaper. Polish can also be a good indicator depending on what kind of stone you are using.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Very interesting. I went back and looked and my flipping of the burr on each stone comes directly from Chad Wards book with additional influence from the JCK website and Korin's sharpening video.

-AJ

Andrew H
06-06-2012, 10:39 PM
If you can feel a burr off a stone above 5k You have more sensitive fingers than I.
Of course you are forming a burr on each stone but I don't think anyone is slaving away on a 10k until they can feel a burr and then forming one on the other side.

ajhuff
06-06-2012, 10:46 PM
I haven't got that far yet LOL! I'm still working on the 1000 stone remember? :D

-AJ

Schtoo
06-07-2012, 07:57 AM
The knives have gone from dull to hair shaving sharp so I am getting that progress.



Does anything else matter? Really?

Keep looking into your bellybutton if you wish, but if you've got an edge you're happy with, what's the problem?

Stu.

Seth
06-07-2012, 12:12 PM
As others have suggested, the burr can be there but diificult to feel with your big hairy calloused hands. You need to find a very sensitive area of your body to accurately feel for the burr.

Benuser
06-07-2012, 12:23 PM
No suggestions??

ajhuff
06-07-2012, 01:33 PM
The snarkiness is not appreciated nor helpful.

-AJ

adletson
06-07-2012, 01:49 PM
I'm really glad you asked this aj. I had thought you had to raise a burr with each stone too.

Still-edo
06-07-2012, 01:58 PM
The way I check for burr is I use a light stropping motion against my hand or a piece of paper. I think it's easier this way to check for resistance. or I scratch the tip with my nail. Work my way up the blade to make sure I have a burr the complete length. Then I flip over and go light on the side with the burr to grind it away very lightly. When I can't feel a burr on either side anymore, I strop with my exgf's leather Coach belt that I repo'd from her. Then I try to cut the long way of a rolled up shiny magazine page. Since it's really slick it's really hard to cut unless the blade is really sharp.

DeepCSweede
06-07-2012, 02:47 PM
When I can't feel a burr on either side anymore, I strop with my exgf's leather Coach belt that I repo'd from her.

LMFAO - Good use for a Coach belt IMHO although my wife would kick my A$$ if I tried it with any of hers. I bet it works pretty well too.

Crothcipt
06-07-2012, 07:37 PM
I was just wondering if it does any better than a cheap piece of leather.

Still-edo
06-07-2012, 07:57 PM
In Alton Brown's words "Multi-tasker". Hey, you gotta use whats around right?

As for performance, I don't know maybe we have to arrange a pass around to judge that lol

markenki
06-07-2012, 08:34 PM
May I respectfully disagree? If the very edge is hit with the 400-stone, but not with the 1000, you won't see a patina yet on the unreached part which has been freshly abraded by the 400.
Yes, of course, this only works for the first stone you use in the sharpening session. :)

CompE
06-07-2012, 09:39 PM
As others have stated, it becomes much more difficult to feel a burr as you go up in grit. Furthermore, if you flip the knife often, the burr will be more difficult to feel. If you really want to try to feel the burr, try working just one side of the knife until you feel it and then flip to to work the other. Make sure you worth both sides equally or you'll be left with an asymmetric grind, although it's unlikely you will cause too much damage to a hard J-knife with a 1K.

The guideline that I go by, which should work with any knife, stone or sharpening style is this... I constantly check if I am improving the edge. I'll work the whole edge until I'm satisfied that I've covered all of it, make another pass or two with lighter pressure and then I'll check the edge. I de-burr on a felt block and then stropping (even if I can't see or feel the burr) and then I cut printer paper, checking for how easily it cuts and what it sounds like. If cuts better than the previous stone, then I know that I did something right. I'll then do it again to see if I can make it even better. When working the same stone stops improving the edge, it's time to move on to the next. If the next stone made the edge worse, I'll go back to the previous to fix the damage (IMHO some knives/steels like a toothier edge that can be made worse with too fine of a polish). If the next stone didn't make the edge any better or worse, I either keep working it or accept the fact that it isn't going to improve (a POS stainless knife won't improve on a 5K stone). Also keep in mind that the law of diminishing returns applies. Each stone will improve the edge to a smaller degree.

Benuser
06-07-2012, 10:22 PM
For stropping I use a leather strip coated with acrylic paint containing Cr2O3 as a pigment. It helps to hear if there are remaining burr debris. The paint is water soluble. The smooth coating can be easily restored with a few drops of water when the stropping has caused any damage to the surface.

tk59
06-08-2012, 01:58 AM
As others have suggested, the burr can be there but diificult to feel with your big hairy calloused hands. You need to find a very sensitive area of your body to accurately feel for the burr.:rofl2:

add
06-08-2012, 02:12 AM
I strop with my exgf's leather Coach belt that I repo'd from her.

Condolences.


Pray tell, there was no lingerie and similar application involved in said gift recovery...?

ajhuff
06-09-2012, 04:52 PM
I've had a similar complaint from customers regarding the King stones. They told me that the stones wears down before their knives get sharp. When I asked Mr. Sugai, he told me that the king stones haven't changed what their material is made of, so they're not really up to date with current harder material knives. I assume they would do wonders on carbon knives or softer materials, but maybe just not for your particular knife.

If you want the burr, you may want to try a lower grit stone and work your way to the #1000 grit stones. This is what Mr. Sugai does to make sharpening easier. :)

I was able to get a burr on my Sabatier Nogent on the King 1000 but not on any of the Japanese knives. So it like this is the answer Mari. I think I will be in the market for a harder stone.

Thanks,

-AJ

Eamon Burke
06-09-2012, 08:46 PM
More aggressive, not necessarily harder.

ajhuff
06-09-2012, 09:20 PM
OK, and could you expound more please.

-AJ

Eamon Burke
06-09-2012, 09:40 PM
Just saying that a harder stone isn't always a faster, better cutting stone. Hardness is a quality of what the binder is and how it is made. Aggression is largely a product of the what kind of abrasives are in it.