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View Full Version : Primer on finishing on stones? (As opposed to paper)



Don Nguyen
06-08-2012, 03:04 PM
I've been finishing my knives progressing through grits on paper. 120, 220, 320, 400. It gets me a good finish, but I still love the look of those hazy finished found on yanagis, etc.

I don't know anything about that approach.

Where do I begin?
What should I be aware of?
What's the technique? Same with paper? Knife on stone, or stone on knife?
Slurries, naturals, synthetics, fingerstones, compounds...
Advantages/disadvantages vs paper? Time, cost, etc.

Please do note that I am completely new to this idea. I've only pretty much made knives the western way, keeping everything simple and straight-forward. Thanks!


EDIT: This is wayyy down the road, but I've certainly seen some incredible contrasts between higane/jigane; is the process for bringing out a hamon similar (without etching).

Andrew H
06-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Are you talking about making a faux kasumi finish on a monosteel knife? You might want to look at this: http://www.suisin.co.jp/toku02/2009-01/index.htm

GlassEye
06-08-2012, 04:45 PM
It is all about the natural stones.

EdipisReks
06-08-2012, 04:46 PM
It is all about the natural stones.

nah, it's all about the King 800 :)

Don Nguyen
06-08-2012, 06:58 PM
Are you talking about making a faux kasumi finish on a monosteel knife? You might want to look at this: http://www.suisin.co.jp/toku02/2009-01/index.htm

Do you mean kasumi as in that haze finish (I'm not so familiar with the terms)? What makes it a faux kasumi vs a normal one?

SpikeC
06-08-2012, 07:57 PM
nah, it's about natural stoned!

Andrew H
06-08-2012, 09:04 PM
Do you mean kasumi as in that haze finish (I'm not so familiar with the terms)? What makes it a faux kasumi vs a normal one?

I think it would help if you posted a picture of the finish you want to replicate. A faux kasumi is made on monosteel knife instead of on a clad one.

Don Nguyen
06-08-2012, 09:59 PM
http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/EADIM-Watanabe-Yanagi-Split.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-W0ODdKN9xEc/T2cskM3Ju2I/AAAAAAAANfU/5A0PX0NN2BU/s1600/IMGP1299.JPG
http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx298/jendeindustries/Nubitama%20Stone%20Pictures/Photo164.jpg

I wasn't aware that a kasumi finish was exclusively for, I think, wrought iron (due to its nature when polishing, right?)?



A different finish, but also one I'm interested in. I'm not particularly focused on the hamon/damascus right now, but it's just so clean and hazy.

http://www.goldmountainforge.com/Store/sword013/DSC_0002.jpg

schanop
06-08-2012, 10:08 PM
It's about elbow grease. Quite easy to do with hamaguriba, and a larger bevel knifes like suisin inbox honyaki or my aritsugu a-type kiritsuke:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg408/scaled.php?server=408&filename=pict0096k.jpg&res=landing
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg10/scaled.php?server=10&filename=pict0097xj.jpg&res=landing

Eamon Burke
06-08-2012, 10:25 PM
When the Japanese make a laminated blade, it has hard core steel, and mild steel cladding. The table of the blade is mild steel. The blade road is part mild steel, and part exposed core.

When you sharpen it on a muddy JNat, you get a nice haze on the blade, displaying in a striking manner, the difference between the steels, which is a result of their different levels of ability to resist deformation.

"Kasumi" means "Mist" in Japanese. It's the name of both the hazy finish and, very often, a general reference to the style of construction. Don't take my word as gospel on this, because I do not speak Japanese, but I'm pretty sure that the name for the construction of a laminated blade is "San Mai".

You want a real Kasumi finish, you have to get a Jnat. I use fingerstones, because they are significantly cheaper and I don't get enough single-bevels to warrant paying for the $700 JNat that I want.

You want to fake a Kasumi contrast on a monosteel blade, that's another topic. Few people in the world do that very well. I think it's a cool trick.

Don Nguyen
06-08-2012, 11:07 PM
When the Japanese make a laminated blade, it has hard core steel, and mild steel cladding. The table of the blade is mild steel. The blade road is part mild steel, and part exposed core.

When you sharpen it on a muddy JNat, you get a nice haze on the blade, displaying in a striking manner, the difference between the steels, which is a result of their different levels of ability to resist deformation.

"Kasumi" means "Mist" in Japanese. It's the name of both the hazy finish and, very often, a general reference to the style of construction. Don't take my word as gospel on this, because I do not speak Japanese, but I'm pretty sure that the name for the construction of a laminated blade is "San Mai".

You want a real Kasumi finish, you have to get a Jnat. I use fingerstones, because they are significantly cheaper and I don't get enough single-bevels to warrant paying for the $700 JNat that I want.

You want to fake a Kasumi contrast on a monosteel blade, that's another topic. Few people in the world do that very well. I think it's a cool trick.

Thanks, that's a lot of good knowledge I was looking for.

I'm not particularly looking for getting the contrast between the harder and softer metals, but I do love the haziness. Using paper I get a finish with the sanding lines very apparent, but looking at these kasumi finishes it's very different; I'd like to get that effect on a fully hardened monosteel blade.

Maybe have the body of the blade near the spine polished, and have the bevel hazy - that's farther down the road, however.

Eamon Burke
06-08-2012, 11:19 PM
Ohhhh


Use good wet/dry paper with mineral oil or simple green. Unidirectional strokes up to about 800-1000 grit.

Andrew H
06-08-2012, 11:45 PM
Ohh, I thought you wanted to do a kasumi finish on your knives. If you just want a cleaner, more even, finish you should just use sand paper and go in only one direction.

mainaman
06-08-2012, 11:59 PM
for even finish you need to make sure you spend enough time on each grit. After all scratches from the previous grit are removed move on to the next grit sand paper. I find using corks helpful in achieving even stroke and this finish.

Don Nguyen
06-09-2012, 01:00 AM
Ohh, I thought you wanted to do a kasumi finish on your knives. If you just want a cleaner, more even, finish you should just use sand paper and go in only one direction.

I think I'm being confusing with my wording, or am confused with something about kasumi.

Simply stated, yes, I'd like to do a faux kasumi.

Eamon Burke
06-09-2012, 11:04 PM
First get really good at Hamaguri edges.

I'd start here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYZmtDlwDi4

Don Nguyen
06-10-2012, 02:58 PM
Looks like I have a lot to learn. Thanks for that!

Eamon Burke
06-10-2012, 03:55 PM
Yeah. But it's fun!

Mike Davis
06-11-2012, 11:12 AM
A kasumi finished can be achieved on mono steel if it is differentially heat treated. You are basically creating the same surface as a san mai piece. You basically have the "hard core" with the softer spine doing a clay coated HT, but having the hamon down that far will result in a blade that will not last for as long as one done in traditional japanese style where the hamon is pretty close to the spine. The kasumi will have a different effect on the hardened area as it does on the softer area, basically replicating the finish, just minus the san mai aspect. I personally like my hamon polished, but i am a knut about them :)