PDA

View Full Version : Trying a single bevel, looking for iput and suggestions.



HHH Knives
06-14-2012, 11:12 AM
Heres one that started out to be a double bevel gyuto, But the stock was pretty thick. And I have wanted to try a hybrid single bevel deign/grind .. So this was a perfect candidate.

Im thinking I may finish this blade and do a pass around with it to get some feedback about how the grind functions etc. I could go into details about how I ground it and why. But wont. Here are a few photos, Im interested to hear what you all think.

I still have about 4 to 8 hrs of work on the sharpening stones B4 it will be close to ready for a handle. But Im working on it a little here and there untill im happy with the grinds. I worked for about 2 more hours on it after taking these photos and got the faces cleaned up pretty good with the 1200k King.

Thanks for looking and for any comments good or bad about what I have so far.

oivind_dahle
06-14-2012, 11:24 AM
Call it knife of glory. Drill five large holes through the blade along the spine and call em "gloryholes".
Tell people the holes will increase speed and food release. sell it on blade forums. People there will go nuts :)

HHH Knives
06-14-2012, 11:36 AM
LMAO! Thats funny! I dont think so.. lol

Eamon Burke
06-14-2012, 11:42 AM
You have a 1,200,000 grit King stone? Crap! King has upped their game!




But seriously, I'm curious to see the backside. Is it just flat?

HHH Knives
06-14-2012, 11:50 AM
LMAO you guys are all comedians today! I mean 1200 My bad.. :) The back side is what Im calling it a Hybrid. Ill post photos as soon as I get the back side presentable! :)

Deckhand
06-14-2012, 12:29 PM
It looks like Frank Lloyd Wright falling water.

Pensacola Tiger
06-14-2012, 01:06 PM
Randy,

Is the back flat or have you ground a convexity that doesn't show in the pictures?

It should be an interesting knife to use. How thick is the spine?

It reminds me of the single side ground blades Tsil Censor of TC Blades (http://www.tcblades.com) makes. His are wa-handled, though.

Rick

Andrew H
06-14-2012, 01:12 PM
Randy,

Is the back flat or have you ground a convexity that doesn't show in the pictures?

It should be an interesting knife to use. How thick is the spine?

It reminds me of the single side ground blades Tsil Censor of TC Blades (http://www.tcblades.com) makes. His are wa-handled, though.

Rick

I was about to say the same thing, Rick. Looks very similar to a TC blades type knife.

Pensacola Tiger
06-14-2012, 01:46 PM
I was about to say the same thing, Rick. Looks very similar to a TC blades type knife.

Maybe we could talk Randy into making a laser? Remember the one Salty snapped up? I think the spine was like 1.6mm at the heel.

heirkb
06-14-2012, 03:32 PM
It looks like Frank Lloyd Wright falling water.

I'm trying to see it, but I don't lol.

Deckhand
06-14-2012, 03:53 PM
I'm trying to see it, but I don't lol.
He has water on the knife and it is on a waterstone.
If you look at standard images of the house the outside with the waterfall actually looks like a few Japanese waterstones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallingwater
I guess I spend too much time here, but I bet others see it.:D

Eamon Burke
06-14-2012, 05:48 PM
Funny?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zbpIG-g2Rcg/T9pb4jUAlTI/AAAAAAAAAh4/Kh9XBxD_jNg/s640/2012-06-14%252016.46.24.jpg


Sorry for the threadjack, BTW.

Deckhand
06-14-2012, 06:23 PM
Funny?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zbpIG-g2Rcg/T9pb4jUAlTI/AAAAAAAAAh4/Kh9XBxD_jNg/s640/2012-06-14%252016.46.24.jpg


Sorry for the threadjack, BTW.

Lmao that is an instant classic. Guess I am not alone in seeing Japanese waterstones in Frank Lloyd Wright falling water. I feel so much better not being alone in my disease. :D
Ditto on the thread jack sorry.

Crothcipt
06-14-2012, 06:44 PM
I really can't judge from the pic., but I wouldn't mind trying it out. I wouldn't mind seeing how this comes out.

Ya I do see falling water in the pics. too funny.

obtuse
06-14-2012, 07:23 PM
That's awesome

Vertigo
06-14-2012, 07:58 PM
Funny?
Definitely. :spin chair:

Tristan
06-14-2012, 09:47 PM
Only on this forum... hehehe.

heirkb
06-15-2012, 02:51 AM
Nice! :lol2:

Mike Davis
06-15-2012, 08:59 AM
Randy, did you get one of the platen's from Nathan? I got a 48" one and while being a pain to use( have to keep stuff ultra square) it makes the urasuki much easier to do efficiently. Looking good so far. I started a mioroshi deba also lol, looks like we are doing single bevels at the same time :)

Marko Tsourkan
06-15-2012, 09:08 AM
Randy, did you get one of the platen's from Nathan? I got a 48" one and while being a pain to use( have to keep stuff ultra square) it makes the urasuki much easier to do efficiently. Looking good so far. I started a mioroshi deba also lol, looks like we are doing single bevels at the same time :)

Me too. I would not make a single-beveled gyuto (don't see a point) but a yanagi or a deba, why not, especially in a good steel.

Warping is an issue on steep angles (~10 degrees), but one has to deal with it.

M

HHH Knives
06-15-2012, 10:09 AM
Randy, did you get one of the platen's from Nathan? I got a 48" one and while being a pain to use( have to keep stuff ultra square) it makes the urasuki much easier to do efficiently. Looking good so far. I started a mioroshi deba also lol, looks like we are doing single bevels at the same time :)

Mike this is the blade you started grinding on when you were here, I did order a 48" platen but have not received it YET.. :) The back is flat ground.

Marko, I really am just playing around and wanted to try something new and different, I done know how well it will work out. Thats why I asked for opinions.
I will never know for sure until I try. And that's just what Im doing!!

God Bless YA!
Randy

PierreRodrigue
06-15-2012, 10:31 AM
The only way is to try! Good luck Randy, I figure, why settle for the status quot. I hillbilly-rigged my own platten, kinda like a french curve. Different radius' along its length. I just figure where to hold my work piece.

Marko Tsourkan
06-15-2012, 11:44 AM
Absolutely, by all means.

I have tried it and found that to make it an effective all around cutter, it has to be thin, otherwise it will turn and wedge. It will work well on proteins, but the rest is a coin toss.

Shallow things will respond well, more dense stuff will wedge.

M

HHH Knives
06-15-2012, 04:20 PM
you may be right and it could be limited?

I have been working this thing all afternoon! about 3 hours on the 1200g stone. Im giving that new King a work out! lol :) I did manage to remove most of my fingerprints on my first 2 fingers of my left hand.. lol :) from rubbing the stone as I work on the faces of this knife.. :thumbsup:

Looks like a couple more hours on the 1200 then who knows how much more on the 2K and 5K and then finally the 8K Then I may etch the blade and then rework the bevel on the right side back to 8000?? Not sure whats the best way to expose the damascus pattern at that high polish? I see some J knives that are highly polished yet still show the damascus pattern.. Is this from using natural stones? or adding something to the water when your polishing on the stones to help bring out the pattern? Or is it a ancient Japanese secret? :D

I do have a new found respect for Japanese polishers! Its alot of work. and takes patience and skills!

Taz575
06-15-2012, 04:50 PM
Do you have any coarse stones to do the bulk of the shaping? Diamond plates work nicely for that and they stay flat.

HHH Knives
06-15-2012, 05:19 PM
Tax, that would be WAY to easy!! :) I used my grinders to rough it out and remove the bulk, But a diamond plate would of been nice! lol

Taz575
06-15-2012, 05:34 PM
Gluten for punishment, eh? I have some of the cheap diamond stones from Harbor freight that are a 4 sided block. Great to set a bevel, remove a chip, flatten a ripple, etc, then I move to the stones from there. Saves wear and tear and flattening on the good stones.

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Maybe we could talk Randy into making a laser? Remember the one Salty snapped up? I think the spine was like 1.6mm at the heel.


Always open to try new stuff! message me and we can give it a try!!

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 10:04 AM
Gluten for punishment, eh? I have some of the cheap diamond stones from Harbor freight that are a 4 sided block. Great to set a bevel, remove a chip, flatten a ripple, etc, then I move to the stones from there. Saves wear and tear and flattening on the good stones.

Heading to HF to get me one of them. Thanks Taz for the heads up!! I went to wet dry sand paper yesterday at 400 G and was able to really make some progress! Its looking GREAT! But having a 4 sided diamond block will always be helpful on this or future projects!

Taz575
06-16-2012, 12:04 PM
They are fairly coarse and need to be broken in. The one I have is a 200, 300, 400 and 600 grit block and works fairly well, but you will need to remove the scratches with some coarse stones or sandpaper afterwards. I would break in the diamond block on some metal before going to the knife to knock off the sharp tips otherwise you will have lots of deep uneven scratches to get out. But it should work pretty quick for you! I bought the smaller individual stones which have the metal plate glued to a plastic piece around 1/8" thick. They were OK, but the metal comes unglued as well, so I just use the metal tabs for breaking corners on the spine/choil areas of knives :) The 4 sided block seems to be holding up better, but I will probably have to reglue the metal plates at some point. Much cheaper than a DMT, but it's a throw away type item once it's worn out completely.

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 12:28 PM
Right on!! Thanks for the info! I found that the 400 G sand paper on a flat plate is working wonders!

I still dont know what or how to bring out the pattern of the damascus in a traditional sense? I can etch the blade like I normally would, but that seems to be counter productive on this project..

Will the damascus pattern develop at some point in the polishing, or is it the stones used that make the pattern visible?

GlassEye
06-16-2012, 02:03 PM
Natural stones could bring out the pattern, I think there are ways to do so without naturals but someone with more experience would have to explain that. I could send you a piece of uchigumori if you would like to try that for polishing.

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Natural stones could bring out the pattern, I think there are ways to do so without naturals but someone with more experience would have to explain that. I could send you a piece of uchigumori if you would like to try that for polishing.

Im not sure what uchigumori is, but heck yea.. lol :) Ill try it! I worked more on the knife this morning, and now have a nice hazy looking polish from the king 1200 pretty much on the entire blade. so Im making progress!!! Ill snap a few pictures and post em up

GlassEye
06-16-2012, 03:24 PM
The uchigomori are natural finger stones; Maksim's page about these (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Finger-Stones-Uchigomori-s/1838.htm). They won't give a high contrast like etching will, more hazy instead. PM me an address if you would like to try the uchigomori.

Let's see those pictures.

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 03:51 PM
Here are a few. Its hard to show what it really looks like in a photo, Im sure you guys knife what I mean.

Still working on this, and getting quite a rush from seeing the blade finish take shape. :) I hope that when I get to 5 and 8K that the damascus pattern starts to show?

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 03:58 PM
The uchigomori are natural finger stones; Maksim's page about these (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Finger-Stones-Uchigomori-s/1838.htm). They won't give a high contrast like etching will, more hazy instead. PM me an address if you would like to try the uchigomori.

Let's see those pictures.

Thanks for the link!

Ill shoot ya a message.. Its very kind of you to offer and send the stone for me to try on this project! :thanx:

Eamon Burke
06-16-2012, 04:07 PM
The higher you polish on most all synthetics, the less the pattern shows up.

Fingerstones do this best, but there are some steel combos that certain fingerstones don't like. It's trial and error.

You can always etch it, no?

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 04:11 PM
I can but was shooting for natural stone etched look if possible. I was thinking I could add a little vinegar to my water when working the stones and it may bring out the pattern.. But that seemed like cheating. :)

The Edge
06-16-2012, 04:15 PM
If it's a mix of carbon steels, I suppose if the polishing doesn't bring out the pattern, maybe a forced patina would help? But I have no clue, just throwing out an idea.

HHH Knives
06-16-2012, 04:39 PM
It is a mix of High carbon steels. If I remember correctly its a 3 steel mix.

Crothcipt
06-16-2012, 07:58 PM
Wow Randy those are coming along nicely. I love the fact that when you are learning something so is everyone else. Can't wait to see the finished product.:pizza:

Deckhand
06-16-2012, 08:12 PM
Really looking good now.

HHH Knives
06-18-2012, 12:31 AM
I am learning as I go on these, Iv been working for many day now with the 4 stones that I have. Im new to the whole thing and having lots of fun as I learn. Each stone is giving very unique effects on the steel. I know, It seems like that would be the case, yet. to my surprise, what I expected to happen didnt, and I was actually surprised and left with questions by what did happen.

I have a King 1200 and a green ? 2000 and a Rika 5000x and a king 8000.

First The 1200 King, Quite possibly my favorite stone of the 4 I love the feel of it and it leaves a nice cloudy look to the steel and very clean defined scratch patterns. flattened the face very cleanly and as close to perfect as my hands can make it.

I was not going for that cloudy look so I went to the next stone

Green ? make 2000 stone, Seems like a great stone and really cleaned up the cloudy look, leaving a almost mirror finish on the face of the blade.

Mirror finish was what I was after so I went to the Rika 5k. expecting a even finer mirror finish, I was SURPRISED after working the bevel for a minute and taking a look, Rather then refining the near mirror finish from the green stone, The face was cloudy again and had very defined scratch patterns again. Mind you. The stone cut great and evenly, scratch pattern finer then the 1200 as you would expect, and in just a minute or two the entire blade face was even looking and had that nice cloudy look.. About now Im scratching my head and trying to understand why the 2k gives a near mirror and 5K leaves a cloudy finish? SO I move up to the King 8000g and go for it. figuring... Who know what I can expect..

After a few minutes on the 8K stone I cleaned the blade and examined it and found that the blade showed a finish somewhere in the middle of cloudy and mirror. different then any of the previous looks. Again. scratching my head here. I worked the 8 K stone for about 10 minutes or so. then cleaned up the blade again looking for different results then the first look. But nope. The same. sorta cloudy, yet sorta polished. yet not one or the other.

So now Im just shooting this out looking for some answers to what the heck is the deal with these fancy rocks? and why I cant get a mirror finish with a 8000 Grit stone? but can with a 2k stone?? Is it the stones hardness? or the type of abrasive the stone is made from? etc.

This has been alot of fun and messy and cool.. :) I will say that Im very pleased with the blade so far, and there a certain pride in working a blade this much by hand on the stones, refining the faces and the bevel, and making finite changes to the profile as I worked the blade! Yet at this point, I am about ready to just etch it like I would any other damascus blade and them rework just the face on the stones. Back to the almost mirror finish 2k and call it good? What do you all think?

Taz575
06-18-2012, 03:39 AM
Each stone will behave a little differently. Is the green 2K stone fairly thin, like 1/2" thick or so? Maybe a Shapton Pro 2K? I have the Rika 5K and it is rated at 5K finish, but it's a cloudier finish. Some people report getting around a 5000 grit finish if they grind on the mud with only the weight of the blade, but I kinda like the bitey edge that it gives a knife. I have a 8K stone that gives more of a mirror finish than other higher grit stones, including naturals. Some stones give a cloudier finish and others give a clearer finish and they may act differently on different steels. That's one of the joys of waterstones; they are all a bit different!

HHH Knives
06-28-2012, 09:32 AM
IK, So I picked up a special tool thats gona aid in the making of the single bevel knives. I have to fabricate a tool arm for it to fit on my grinder. But very shortly I will be able to do something similar to the traditional single bevel with the Concave on the back side. :)

Ill keep you posted of the progress and like I said somewhere in this thread. I really am interested in making a pass around knife and picking 6 or 10 people to beat the snot out of one of my knives. No I just have to find the time to make it happen. I would really like it to be a single bevel blade. I think I will learn more from the pass around then if I send a double grind blade. ?? I may be wrong. It wouldnt be the first time! lol :)

Thanks for looking and all the comments
Randy

echerub
06-28-2012, 09:47 AM
This is really interesting and I'd really like to see how this develops! Would enjoy testing it too. Having a number of folks test drive the knife is probably the only way to really find out how it will perform in-use under different conditions and in different environments.

HHH Knives
07-28-2012, 06:45 PM
I have not posted about this in a while. I had to set it aside and was just able to get back to it this week.

The good thing is my 48" wheel arrived in the time I was not able to play with this one. Its really not a wheel, but is a tool arm that attaches to the grinder with a radius equal to a 48" wheel. Should make doing single bevel knives a little better and allow me to produce some really nice cutting blades.

So after working more on the back side of this one. I finally etched the blade to show the pattern, because after all the stone work I have done by hand, I still could not get the damascus pattern to show at all. Im sure Im missing something in the equation.

Specs 248mm on the edge. 51mm heel height. Modified ladder pattern 1095/1080/15n20 RC 59/60

Heres a few photos. Next will be some test cutting an sharpening etc.

Can someone please advise me the best way to add the final bevels. possibly a link or thread or youtube vid etc. :D


What ya think so far?

schanop
07-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Is this suppose to be a single bevel gyuto/funy, something along the line of Suisin Momiji? Pattern looks great. And it seems that bevel width still gets smaller towards the tip.

HHH Knives
07-28-2012, 07:04 PM
I dont know for sure what it would be called, or considered, Its a 240mm gyuto shape that I was attempting my first single bevel on. Thanks for the cretique on the bevel. I have not taken calipers to it, But will to see how much it differs between the heel to the tip.

I did not try and copy or pattern this blade from a Suisin Momiji. The blade profile and shape may be similar. Again I dont know for sure what that is. I will Google it. :)

Thanks
Randy

HHH Knives
07-28-2012, 07:07 PM
Yep, The bevel height does change and is less tall toward the tip. Easy to see with the calipers where it starts to change. :) Good eye. :thumbsup:

schanop
07-28-2012, 07:12 PM
At least my eyes didn't fool me :-) You should consult JBro a bit about traditional single bevel's bevel width. Usually it is fairly constant or getting even a little wider towards the tip.

Looking good :doublethumbsup:

HHH Knives
07-28-2012, 07:59 PM
I just may do that, Thanks for the advice.

Eamon Burke
07-29-2012, 01:39 AM
That is a sweet affect the damascus has, n never seen that before! Backside shots?

JasonD
07-29-2012, 04:55 AM
Is the blade road also ground in concave? I only ask because the shinogi line seems to "stick out" in the pattern. Either way, looks pretty sweet to me!

HHH Knives
07-29-2012, 10:39 AM
Well, As I said many times, This was the first for me. And like "my" normal. I decided to try this mid stream. and on a whim.

I really didnt do alot of research or did I study and learn all the Japanese words for all the things on this knife, So please bare with me as I try and describe the grinds and shapes and such! :)

The blade has a nice taper which basically runs from the heel to the tip, on both faces. Then the backside is ground creating the concave area, on only the left blade face leaving the handle area flat.

The R. side single bevel was then machine ground flat.

Thats when I started working the entire blade with my water stones. and I spent about 8 hours over a week of time working and refining the single bevel. Because I used the stones on the face as well as the flat on the R side, there may be a slight convex to them but I dont think any concave. I also know that I raised the height of the grind near the heel at this stage on the stones to compensate for and get past a area where I messed up a little when setting the original tapers.

I was really hoping that at some point in the process of working these on the wet stones that the damascus pattern would start to show naturally, And I took this as high as 8k. working with 5 different stones. What I found was that each gives unique and nice finishes, but none gave me a look I was happy with that gave a hint that the blade was damascus and not a mono steel. .
So at about 5K finish on the grind, and a 3k on the face. I etched the blade and thats where it sets now.

The edge, is basically at 0 ground right now and is sharp and cuts. But its not that screaming sharp that I am hoping to achieve. I have not added a final bevel on either side. So, I am seeking any advice as to what is next. to attempt to get a real edge on this. Then I can really do some test cutting and determine if its worthy to be a pass around or a work horse in my kitchen.. :)

Thanks for reading and any advice is always appreciated.

God Bless!
Randy

HHH Knives
07-29-2012, 01:59 PM
To my surprise, This one found a NEW HOME. Its going to my friend and he will refine what I have done, fix the areas that need to be adjusted and either add some handles and who knows?? He may send it back to me for handles? Either way, Its n good hands. and Im happy knowing he is gona make it all it can be!

Thanks guys for looking and the comments and ALL your advise and helpful info.

Crothcipt
07-29-2012, 08:03 PM
Well Randy was it worth the time? Are you gonna do another single bevel blade? I think with a little more practice you will get what you want out of the stones. Ty for the write up, it gives a insight that video's make it look to easy. Very informative.

Rottman
07-29-2012, 08:33 PM
Just in general and for your next trip to single bevel land, I don't think a blade with a 59-60 HRC has the requirements to make a top notch single bevel.

HHH Knives
07-29-2012, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the input Rottman. What is the lowest RC that a single bevel knife should be?


I plan to make many more single bevel knives. I purchased and finally set up the 48" platen.. So I cant stop now. Im on a mission. :D

This one was a great challenge, I even sanding the concave into the back by hand.. With sanding blocks and paper. Was it worth it you ask, Of course it was. I loved working on it and learned alot. I dont know about the videos and stuff you mentioned. But I will say this, If it was easy, EVERYONE would be doing them!

God Bless

Rottman
07-29-2012, 09:25 PM
Thanks for the input Rottman. What is the lowest RC that a single bevel knife should be?
With Japanese makers even the lower end lines are usually stated around 61-62 in white#2, in reality they might be 1 hrc softer, so something around 62 should be fine, but I'm no expert on single bevels: paging Mr. Broida, paging Mr. Broida....

HHH Knives
07-29-2012, 09:35 PM
RIGHT ON!!! Thats not gona be a problem with a couple of the new steels Ill be testing. GOOD TIMES! :D

Thanks again for your input.

Bill Burke
08-13-2012, 10:39 AM
Hi Randy, It is my experiance that you are going to have to move up to natural waterstones to get the effect that you arelooking for. Thes stones are (again in my experiance ) particular about having a slurry on them during use and the slurry needs to be made by rubbing them with another stone not just the blade. This slurry seems to cut the areas between layers a little deeper than the wider layers of steel.

HHH Knives
08-15-2012, 06:32 PM
Bill, Thanks so much for your input! This blade is in very capable hands now and after he gets done with it, I may get it back for a short time to handle it. :) Which at that point I will try and get some good images of it.

As far as the J nats, I would love to get a few natural stones, but not knowing what is what and why I would need this stone or that stone etc. Has slowed me down a bit.

I have tried to read up on it. Yet still cant seem to make heads or tails of most of the info.Seems most of what I find is based on opinion, and that varys greatly among end users. So I get frustrated and just move on! :)

This was a fun project and a learning experience, I now am one piece away from having a working platen that is approx equal to a 48" wheel, and that should make some of this a bit easier and much more consistent on the back side. And I plan to make another go of this style grind soon.



Thanks a bunch to all who have shared there knowledge and posted.
Randy

Bill Burke
08-16-2012, 12:06 AM
Randy a good starting place for polishing stone is to buy a sword polishing kit from Namikawa heibe in Japan. they have several dealers in the us i believe. these are entry level stones and there are some synthetic stones in the kit but at least you can get an idea of what you are doing with a relatively inexpensive kit before you move on to buy single stonesand spending big bucks on them.

HHH Knives
08-16-2012, 10:14 AM
Great advice, Thanks again Bill! I have another question I wanted to ask ya and Chuck told me I need to call you.

EdipisReks
08-16-2012, 11:50 AM
try a King 800 for producing pattern with a stone. it's a good looking knife.

Bill Burke
08-16-2012, 12:28 PM
Great advice, Thanks again Bill! I have another question I wanted to ask ya and Chuck told me I need to call you.

call away two oh 8, three 3 six, 3seven nine two

Candlejack
08-16-2012, 12:53 PM
Bill, Thanks so much for your input! This blade is in very capable hands now and after he gets done with it, I may get it back for a short time to handle it. :) Which at that point I will try and get some good images of it.

As far as the J nats, I would love to get a few natural stones, but not knowing what is what and why I would need this stone or that stone etc. Has slowed me down a bit.

I have tried to read up on it. Yet still cant seem to make heads or tails of most of the info.Seems most of what I find is based on opinion, and that varys greatly among end users. So I get frustrated and just move on! :)

This was a fun project and a learning experience, I now am one piece away from having a working platen that is approx equal to a 48" wheel, and that should make some of this a bit easier and much more consistent on the back side. And I plan to make another go of this style grind soon.



Thanks a bunch to all who have shared there knowledge and posted.
Randy


Well, you have Maxim here. And Jon.