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BDD
06-15-2012, 04:51 AM
Would you say getting the "sharpest kitchen knife" money can buy is more about how the knife was sharpened and to what degree than it is about the type of steel used (e.g. blue #1 vs white #1 or white #1 vs white #2...etc.)? What factor or factors in the end would give one the kitchen knife with "the sharpest" edge?

JBroida
06-15-2012, 05:02 AM
all things aside, the "sharpest" edge would come from the finest grained steel, with high enough hardness to hold the most acute angle, as thin behind the edge as possible, and sharpened to the highest grit possible. In reality, sharpness is only part of getting a good kitchen knife. There will always be a need for balance... balance in edge retention relative to ease of sharpening... balance of hardness relative to brittleness... balance of need for "bite" on the edge relative to the need for a smooth cut. When it comes to steel types, you need to figure out what is important to you. If you like ease of sharpening and a really keen edge, look at something like the white steels. If you prefer a bit more edge retention at the cost of ease of sharpening and maximum potential sharpness, pick something like the blue steels. If the ultimate in edge retention is important to you, pick something like blue super (but understand there will be costs... it tends to be more brittle, more difficult to sharpen, and doesnt have as fine of a grain structure).
(*i only covered carbon steel in my statements, but the gist of it is figure out more about what you value and then pick a steel/makers heat treatment to match)

With regard to sharpening, you will need to asses how much bite you like relative to how smooth of a cutting feel you like. Also, you will need to pick a bevel angle that is sharp enough for you, but still holds up to the kind of abuse you expect to put it through. Likewise, you can decide if you want a convex edge, microbevel, compound edge, hollow grind, etc.

Anyways, the main point is that searching for the "sharpest" edge isnt that important when trying to find a good knife. Look for a good balance of the qualities/values that are important to you (and, yes, there will always be a need for balance as opposed to extremes)

Dusty
06-15-2012, 10:02 AM
Nice post Jon.

tk59
06-15-2012, 11:04 AM
Don't you ever sleep, Jon? :wink:

schanop
06-15-2012, 12:09 PM
misis is away, I heard :crytissue:

Benuser
06-15-2012, 12:37 PM
Great post!

Justin0505
06-15-2012, 01:20 PM
Nana-nana-nana- nana, nana-nana- nana-nana (batman melody)...

... BROIDA-MAN!
Nice post Jon! You should have that on a plaque in you store and saved in a text file on your utility belt, ready to copy and paste.

To add a comment to the original question I would say that I've seen very few knives come out of the box with an edge that really showed the best possible performance of the steel. Understand that a really good edge takes time and skill and adds to cost.

The best "out of the box" edges that Ive seen have come from rather high-end knives like Carter, Shigefusa, and Martell.

Its been a long time since i purchased one so standards may have changed, but Shun and Blazen both did a very good job with their sg2 steel lines.

I havent bought enough knifes from Jon, but id imagine that most of what he sells will have good edges, and you can always have him sharpen them too.

Any particular OTB edge standouts that spring to mind for you Jon?

ajhuff
06-15-2012, 01:41 PM
all things aside, the "sharpest" edge would come from the finest grained steel, with high enough hardness to hold the most acute angle, as thin behind the edge as possible, and sharpened to the highest grit possible. In reality, sharpness is only part of getting a good kitchen knife. There will always be a need for balance... balance in edge retention relative to ease of sharpening... balance of hardness relative to brittleness... balance of need for "bite" on the edge relative to the need for a smooth cut. When it comes to steel types, you need to figure out what is important to you. If you like ease of sharpening and a really keen edge, look at something like the white steels. If you prefer a bit more edge retention at the cost of ease of sharpening and maximum potential sharpness, pick something like the blue steels. If the ultimate in edge retention is important to you, pick something like blue super (but understand there will be costs... it tends to be more brittle, more difficult to sharpen, and doesnt have as fine of a grain structure).
(*i only covered carbon steel in my statements, but the gist of it is figure out more about what you value and then pick a steel/makers heat treatment to match)

With regard to sharpening, you will need to asses how much bite you like relative to how smooth of a cutting feel you like. Also, you will need to pick a bevel angle that is sharp enough for you, but still holds up to the kind of abuse you expect to put it through. Likewise, you can decide if you want a convex edge, microbevel, compound edge, hollow grind, etc.

Anyways, the main point is that searching for the "sharpest" edge isnt that important when trying to find a good knife. Look for a good balance of the qualities/values that are important to you (and, yes, there will always be a need for balance as opposed to extremes)

What's funny is this is exactly WHY I say steel is overrated. I just don't get buying a bar of steel and hoping it makes a good knife. Buy a knife.

When I "call" Jon (I never call, always have emailed back and forth) I tell him "I'm looking for a knife that does this this and this, what would you recommend?" And he will recommend one or two knives to meet my needs. I did the same thing today on the phone with a knife maker. "I want stainless or tool steel, edge retention is most important to me, to be used in a professional kitchen on ploy boards. I don't care about stains, water marks, or patina but I don't want carbon steel. You pick what steel you work with best to fulfill those needs."

Maybe we're saying the same thing. But to me it's all about application, not material.

-AJ

BDD
06-15-2012, 02:18 PM
Good advice Jon.

I thought having "bite" and being able to draw a knife easily through meat for example would be the same thing. If the knife has "bite" it might not slice easily?

If we can't have both then I guess I'd want a knife that can cut as effortlessly as possible. How easy it is to sharpen might not play into it as I don't know how much time I want to (if at all) invest in learning to sharpen my knives myself using whetstones. So perhaps a blue steel blade with the highest HRC rating would be for me? As I don't see myself abusing the knife in a home environment.

Any knife recommendations in the sub-$400 range for a Gyuto? If you need to know more of my needs that I've left out...let me know.

BDD
06-15-2012, 02:27 PM
To add a comment to the original question I would say that I've seen very few knives come out of the box with an edge that really showed the best possible performance of the steel. Understand that a really good edge takes time and skill and adds to cost.

The best "out of the box" edges that Ive seen have come from rather high-end knives like Carter, Shigefusa, and Martell.

Any particular OTB edge standouts that spring to mind for you Jon?

Very true. I guess OTB sharpness shouldn't be that much a consideration.

I'll Google Shigefusa. I don't need custom knives for home use.

And I too would like to hear which knives Jon thinks/knows do have decent OTB sharpness.

chinacats
06-15-2012, 02:50 PM
I'll Google Shigefusa. I don't need custom knives for home use.


Good luck as shig's are extremely hard to find in stock--especially in the gyuto style. The best bet if that is what you want is to wait until one comes up on b/s/t here, but not sure that sounds like what you are asking for steel-wise...or as everyone else suggests, just call Jon.

Cheers

mano
06-15-2012, 03:16 PM
Maybe we're saying the same thing. But to me it's all about application, not material.

-AJ

Not really. I think what he's saying is everything -including material- is determined by application.
For example:
So as a home cook I want to slice roasts, poultry breasts etc. (application)=> either a sujihiki or yanagiba.

I'm not slicing sushi and have little interest in learning yanagiba technique and single bevel sharpening (application)=> suji.

I clean and dry knives after every use (application)=> all types of steels apply

I want a keen edge and easier sharpening (application) => white steel.

And so on.

At least that's the way I understand it.

ajhuff
06-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Sorry, that's poor communication on my part by "we" I did not mean Jon and myself. By "we" I mean myself and the people who put so much consideration into steel selection. You know who you are. :D

-AJ

BDD
06-15-2012, 03:35 PM
Good luck as shig's are extremely hard to find in stock--especially in the gyuto style. The best bet if that is what you want is to wait until one comes up on b/s/t here, but not sure that sounds like what you are asking for steel-wise...or as everyone else suggests, just call Jon.

Cheers

I didn't have any problems finding his knives sold and in-stock. Perhaps you are referring to his "one-off" knives? The ones that can take up to a year to be delivered?

If any one wants the URL please PM me.

The Shigefusa gyuto's I saw ranged in price from $350 to just under $800 US.

I just Googled "Shigefusa knives" for the hell of it since it was mentioned here.

For me what is important (at this point...never having used a Japanese kitchen knife) is overall balance (weight not more in the handle or blade), moderate weight feel (e.g. don't want a "weightless" feeling knife), blade that can attain/keep (for "long" periods between sharpening) an extremely sharp edge...is near "effortless" to slice/dice through meat/vegetables...ease of sharpening? Least important for me as I might end up having some one else sharpen my knives for me if I decide I don't want to spend the time to learn/practice using whetstones.

And "application"...home cook..."plate" 2 meals a day for myself. Cutting/slicing vegetables and various meats (e.g. prime rib, chicken, lamb...etc.).

Justin0505
06-15-2012, 04:17 PM
My comment about knifes with OTB edges that best show the potential of the steel wasnt ment as a recomendation of "knives you should buy/ are appropriate to your wants", it was just ment part of the academic discussion of sharpenes vs potential sharpness.

What i was trying to say is that very few, save some really high-end blades, come with edges that even approach the steel's full potential edge performance. Most are just an average starting place from which you can create your desired edge.

The single biggest factor in edge performace is the sharpening and maintenance skills of the user.

As long as the knife is made from a "good" steel and properly heat treated the differences between the inherent qualities of the steel will be almost indistinguishable when compared to the geometry and level of polish created by the sharpening job.

The single biggest performance investment you can make in knives is actually in yourself and your own edge creation and maintenance skills.

VoodooMajik
06-15-2012, 05:02 PM
+1

obtuse
06-15-2012, 05:47 PM
If you have no interest in learning how to sharpen you should get a blazen and send it to Dave Martell or Eamon Burke every 6 months for sharpening

BDD
06-15-2012, 06:08 PM
What i was trying to say is that very few, save some really high-end blades, come with edges that even approach the steel's full potential edge performance. Most are just an average starting place from which you can create your desired edge.

The single biggest factor in edge performace is the sharpening and maintenance skills of the user.

As long as the knife is made from a "good" steel and properly heat treated the differences between the inherent qualities of the steel will be almost indistinguishable when compared to the geometry and level of polish created by the sharpening job.

The single biggest performance investment you can make in knives is actually in yourself and your own edge creation and maintenance skills.

This was what I was trying to determine. Is it more the sharpening (after we've received the knife) or the type of steel used (e.g. VG10 vs #1 white vs #2 blue..etc.)? Could the type of steel affect the degree of sharpness one can achieve? You say no. Someone else agrees. Not that I disagree. Which makes sense, since, no blade comes sharped to their full potential for one reason or another.

I used to assume they do (before joining kitchen knife forums and doing a little digging).

Another question for every one...what makes one knife able to slice through food (e.g. prime rib) more effortlessly than the next knife? Geometry? Type of steel? The degree and competency of the sharpening? All of the above? Or, does it again come down to the sharpening done after we have our knife?

BDD
06-15-2012, 06:21 PM
If you have no interest in learning how to sharpen you should get a blazen and send it to Dave Martell or Eamon Burke every 6 months for sharpening

I have local qualified sharpening "experts" to take my knives to should I decide not to bother taking a knife sharpening class using whetstones. I still might. Can't say right now. But thanks for the recommendations. Now to Google "blazen" (another word for "saya"? Sheath?) Or did you recommend a Ryusen Blazen brand knife? :)

BDD
06-15-2012, 06:38 PM
Blade steel type affecting sharpening potential. While in general it shouldn't matter (as a few of you mentioned and agree)...what I'm now wondering is what if we sent a #1 white steel (Fujiwara MNM Gyuto) and a Takeda blue steel gyuto to the same expert sharpener like Dave Martell...would he not be able to achieve more sharpness with one of the 2 knives?

Keith Neal
06-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Would you say getting the "sharpest kitchen knife" money can buy is more about how the knife was sharpened and to what degree than it is about the type of steel used (e.g. blue #1 vs white #1 or white #1 vs white #2...etc.)? What factor or factors in the end would give one the kitchen knife with "the sharpest" edge?

BDD, these guys know way too much about this subject. The simple answer, from one with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, is white #1. At least that is the steel I can get the sharpest with my knives and my stones and my sharpening skill or lack thereof!

Keith, running for cover...

BDD
06-15-2012, 07:21 PM
BDD, these guys know way too much about this subject. The simple answer, from one with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, is white #1. At least that is the steel I can get the sharpest with my knives and my stones and my sharpening skill or lack thereof!

Keith, running for cover...

Hi Keith...Wait for me!! :) NO I'm not ____. :) Most people here are kitchen knife fanatics. Some shop owners/sharpeners/ex-chefs or working chefs. So they have different views/knowledge/experience than the average home cooking enthusiast looking for a "sharper than a Henckels" knife.

I'm sure buying a Shun, MAC or Tojiro would more than suffice for me. Knowing how I might end up sharpening them (personally or having them sent to a local "expert").

I suppose I'm asking more out of curiosity. Will a Fujiwara MNM gyuto (#1 white) be able to achieve a sharper edge vs a MAC or Shun Premier (VG-10) sharpened by the same expert? Hmmm...

Also interested to hear what Jon says (being an experienced sharpener/store owner).

Eamon Burke
06-15-2012, 07:25 PM
Blade steel type affecting sharpening potential. While in general it shouldn't matter (as a few of you mentioned and agree)...what I'm now wondering is what if we sent a #1 white steel (Fujiwara MNM Gyuto) and a Takeda blue steel gyuto to the same expert sharpener like Dave Martell...would he not be able to achieve more sharpness with one of the 2 knives?

Assuming the heat treat is good on both, I could push the edge of one past the other, perhaps. But here's the thing--no kitchen knife ever needs an edge that refined! The only steels that take a sub-par kitchen edge are the low RC, big carbide, and sloppy heat treat ones. The issue with a kitchen edge is all about strength.

The difference in potential sharpness between Aogami Super and White #1 is going to be something like "which one whittles blonde hair better?" or "which one will cut an s-shape into hanging tissue paper with LESS forward-backward motion and/or angling?" or "which one has a MORE uniforum edge when polished with a jig to 600,000 grit and examined with a 1000x microscope?".

Sound like a waste of time? It does to me!

Justin0505
06-15-2012, 07:33 PM
Any good steel can get very sharp... I would say "sharper than you actually need for a practical reason other than impressing your friends / scaring your spouse." VG-10 is not considered to be in the same league as a good carbon or more premium stainless, but I have a shun VG-10 paring knife that I can polish to a very fine edge which is more than capable of passing any practical sharpness test (hair, paper, finger nails, tomato skin). It wont hold that edge as long as some other steels when contacting the board a lot, but that doesn't really matter because I use it mostly used in the air. Also, it's very easy to touch up on a strop or fine honing stone, so it's always at near peak sharpness.

Now, I'll compare that to SG2 steel: many people would call SG2 a "better" steel because it will get sharper and it will hold a pretty sharp edge for a long time. However, it's a bit trickier to sharpen and doesn't respond to stropping or honing as well. It also holds a "working edge" (85% sharp) much longer than it holds the initial ultra sharp edge (90-100%). So, the result is that at any given time, my vg-10 paring knife is actually sharper than my SG2 santoku.

Again, I'm not recommending SG2 or VG-10, I'm just trying to make the point that maximum attainable sharpness and edge retention play much less of a role in "how sharp your knife will be" than how often you will use, sharpen, and maintain it.

Personally, I like my knifes to always be absurdly sharp. Sharper than I really have a practical reason for them being. I also enjoy sharpening and stropping, but don't want to have to devote hours to it if I'm not in the mood and just want a sharp knife.
For these reasons, my priorities are: a steel that gets very sharp very easily and holds it for a reasonable time, but I am willing to sacrifice edge retention for ease of maintenance and extreme sharpness. I'm also not a pro, so I dont have to worry about needing to be able to beat the crap out of my knives.
Therefore, my favorite steels tend to be pure, relatively simple carbon steels like white, blue, W2 and strop friendly stainless steels like AEB-L or semi-stainless like whatever the stuff is in the Kikuichi TKC.


Now you mentioned what makes a knife feel effortless when it cuts... well, that's a whole other story. It's all about what you're cutting and the geometry of the blade (how thick / thin it is at varrious points between the edge and spine). It's a very complex thing, but to waaaay over simplify it: I'll say that being thin directly above/behind the edge is very important no matter what you're cutting, but after that, thinner / flatter blades with more distance between edge and spine tend to cut hard veg with the least resistance (look at chinese cleaver or nakiri), and blades with more convexity or angles like a single bevel (look at yanagi or even something like a hunter's deer skinning knife) tend to do better at slicing and separating protein as well as minimizing sticking/drag. Again, that's a super simplistic view, but this could be the topic of another 1000 pages (and I'm sure that it already has been).

BDD
06-15-2012, 08:59 PM
I think in the end it comes down to your application, how well you maintain (or intend to) your knives and knife skills. For some one that only preps for himself (me...90% of the time) or his/her family I think most $100-200 chef's/gyuto (e.g. Tojiro, Shun Premiers) will suffice as far as OTB sharpness goes. And how sharp we get those knives sharpening them ourselves or sending them out to an expert. That after the knives have been sharpened properly to a degree of sharpness the "typical" home cook won't know the difference slicing through tomatoes, potatoes, carrots....etc (or even if they had a $100 Tojiro or $700 Hinoura). It's when you need these knives sharped to the nth degree for work reasons where the minute differences make a difference.

Eamon Burke
06-15-2012, 10:40 PM
IME the factory edge on 99% of knives will not stand up to repeated refreshing(I.E. on a rod or strop) like a properly done edge. For example, the factory edge on a knife I used at work 6 months ago lasted for two weeks. Then I sharpened it, and it was much sharper, and held a good edge, with honing, over a month.

mhlee
06-15-2012, 11:23 PM
I think in the end it comes down to your application, how well you maintain (or intend to) your knives and knife skills. For some one that only preps for himself (me...90% of the time) or his/her family I think most $100-200 chef's/gyuto (e.g. Tojiro, Shun Premiers) will suffice as far as OTB sharpness goes. And how sharp we get those knives sharpening them ourselves or sending them out to an expert. That after the knives have been sharpened properly to a degree of sharpness the "typical" home cook won't know the difference slicing through tomatoes, potatoes, carrots....etc (or even if they had a $100 Tojiro or $700 Hinoura). It's when you need these knives sharped to the nth degree for work reasons where the minute differences make a difference.

Your first question was "Would you say getting the "sharpest kitchen knife" money can buy is more about how the knife was sharpened and to what degree than it is about the type of steel used (e.g. blue #1 vs white #1 or white #1 vs white #2...etc.)? What factor or factors in the end would give one the kitchen knife with "the sharpest" edge?"

Your most recent "conclusion" is, "I think in the end it comes down to your application, how well you maintain (or intend to) your knives and knife skills. For some one that only preps for himself (me...90% of the time) or his/her family I think most $100-200 chef's/gyuto (e.g. Tojiro, Shun Premiers) will suffice as far as OTB sharpness goes. And how sharp we get those knives sharpening them ourselves or sending them out to an expert. That after the knives have been sharpened properly to a degree of sharpness the "typical" home cook won't know the difference slicing through tomatoes, potatoes, carrots....etc (or even if they had a $100 Tojiro or $700 Hinoura). It's when you need these knives sharped to the nth degree for work reasons where the minute differences make a difference."

You first wanted to know what steel or knife gives you the sharpest edge. But, now you're fine with an OOTB edge? I'm confused as to what you're trying to get at.

Asking whether a certain knife with a certain steel will get sharper than another knife made of another steel when sharpened by the same person is an academic exercise. One knife that is sharper does not mean that it will be a better cutting, better performing, or a more useful knife. A knife that gets sharper does not necessarily result in a better performing knife.

As a home cook, I agree with your first and third sentences, don't really agree with your fifth sentence, but completely disagree with your second, and fourth sentences. I thought Justin provided a rather good, concise explanation of both edge performance, i.e. how sharp an edge gets, and how long an edge lasts, and knife performance, i.e., how geometry makes a knife a better performing knife. These are distinct things that I don't think you've quite grasped.

Furthermore, a "typical" home cook will most definitely notice a difference between a better performing knife or even a knife that has been sharpened to different degrees of sharpness and especially when a knife is OOTB. These differences are not necessarily insignificant.

My ex, a very "typical" home cook, noticed that a Carter knife was a much better performing knife than a Global, even when roughly the same sharpness (King 1000, JKS Strop with JKS Diamond Spray). And when knives were sharpened to a higher degree of sharpness (King 6000, JKS Strop with JKS Diamond Spray), she noticed. But, again, the Carter was a far superior performing knife to the Global.

But, if you are already set in your thinking as to what is sufficient, then there's really no point in asking any further. Several members have taken a significant amount of time to help explain to you what makes a sharp knife and a well performing knife. But, I'll reiterate what's been stated multiple times in this thread - sharpness is only one factor in a good performing knife.

So, if you think that a $100 - $200 chef's gyuto, or a Shun, MAC or Tojiro will suffice for you as far as OOTB sharpness goes, then, by all means, go for it. Buy one of those knives and tell us what you think.

But, before continuing this thread, you should really ask yourself, "Do I want a sharp knife, or a good performing knife?" because sharpness doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with performance. And, if you want a good performing knife, read some of the numerous threads about knife geometry and knife performance that have been discussed here.

James
06-15-2012, 11:53 PM
But, before continuing this thread, you should really ask yourself, "Do I want a sharp knife, or a good performing knife?" because sharpness doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with performance. And, if you want a good performing knife, read some of the numerous threads about knife geometry and knife performance that have been discussed here.

+1

BDD
06-16-2012, 04:37 AM
What type of knife do I want? A knife that fits my criteria for what a good performing knife needs to be (I think it's different for everyone) that can attain a high degree of sharpness.

Whether one type of high quality steel (e.g. Blue #1) might achieve a degree more sharpness than another (e.g. white #1) should be immaterial and not noticeable to a "home cook". As any possible difference there might be is likely too minute.

So I guess for me it's more about how the knife performs for me than what type of high quality steel is better. Unfortunately, I can't put my hands on Tojiro DP's (one of the brands i'm considering). So I can only guess how it will perform over let's say some Shun Premiers (which I can get access to back home...I'm living in another city temporarily).

VoodooMajik
06-16-2012, 04:48 AM
Just from reading the thread I think your main concern is edge retention and it's ability to be touched up because you seem apprehensive about sharpening yourself.. If you are considering shun I'd look into Suisin Inox myself. I've heard good things for the $$. JKI, Korin and CKTG all carry them so I don't think they are something to disregard.

:2cents:

BDD
06-16-2012, 05:10 AM
Just from reading the thread I think your main concern is edge retention and it's ability to be touched up because you seem apprehensive about sharpening yourself.. If you are considering shun I'd look into Suisin Inox myself. I've heard good things for the $$. JKI, Korin and CKTG all carry them so I don't think they are something to disregard.

:2cents:

Initially it was about the edge. Which steel might give me give me the sharpest edge and retain it longer. But thinking it over it's not the case any more. It's more about how the knife will perform in my hand. Does it fit my criteria? Since I believe now that any possible difference between high quality steels (e.g. Takeda blue #1 vs Tojiro/Shun VG10) and their ability to gain a degree or two of sharpness over another is immaterial for a "home cook". I believe any VG10 knife will provide more than enough sharpness and retain the edge "long enough" for me.

Can a "home cook" spot the difference in performance between two knives? I'd hope so. Though, in certain cases it can be more subtle. Similar designed knives for example.

Will look into a Susin Inox too. In addition to my 2 other choices (Tojiro DP & Shun Premiers). Thanks.

...and I definitely DO plan to maintain my new knives the best I can (e.g. don't leave them wet, hone/sharpen them myself or get an expert to do it for me). So NO I wouldn't be satisfied with OOTB sharpness. Why would any one who is considering a Japanese knife? :) A "throw away" supermarket generic brand knife perhaps.

obtuse
06-16-2012, 05:39 AM
I would go for a carbonext

rhygin
06-16-2012, 07:03 AM
Or if the concern is just ease of sharpening and getting the best edge immediately (and not worrying about it lasting forever), try a white steel like the Tad or many others. This really comes down to a question of immediate enjoyment vs. something that lasts longer in the kitchen. Hard to say what you value.

mano
06-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Your first question was "Would you say getting the "sharpest kitchen knife" money can buy is more about how the knife was sharpened and to what degree than it is about the type of steel used...?"

Your most recent "conclusion" is, "I think in the end it comes down to your application, how well you maintain (or intend to) your knives and knife skills. For some one that only preps for himself ... I think most $100-200 chef's/gyuto ... will suffice and... That after the knives have been sharpened properly to a degree of sharpness the "typical" home cook won't know the difference ... even if they had a $100 Tojiro or $700 Hinoura."

You first wanted to know what steel or knife gives you the sharpest edge. But, now you're fine with an OOTB edge? I'm confused as to what you're trying to get at.

But, before continuing this thread, you should really ask yourself, "Do I want a sharp knife, or a good performing knife?" because sharpness doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with performance. And, if you want a good performing knife, read some of the numerous threads about knife geometry and knife performance that have been discussed here.

If this is the same BDD as here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/70615/hi-end-japanese-knives
he's a bit of a troll. If I knew it was the same guy I never would've bothered posting on this thread. He makes conclusions without even having used the knives and asks questions he really doesn't want answers to. Trying to be helpful, everyone is chasing their tail sharing their expertise. What I know about Japanese knives could fill a thimble, but I do know a troll when I see one.

JMHO

ajhuff
06-16-2012, 09:29 AM
I've been sensing something was off but didn't want to accuse just based on a feeling.

-AJ

chinacats
06-16-2012, 11:02 AM
If this is the same BDD as here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/70615/hi-end-japanese-knives
he's a bit of a troll. If I knew it was the same guy I never would've bothered posting on this thread. He makes conclusions without even having used the knives and asks questions he really doesn't want answers to. Trying to be helpful, everyone is chasing their tail sharing their expertise. What I know about Japanese knives could fill a thimble, but I do know a troll when I see one.

JMHO

+1

mhlee
06-16-2012, 11:32 AM
If this is the same BDD as here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/70615/hi-end-japanese-knives
he's a bit of a troll. If I knew it was the same guy I never would've bothered posting on this thread. He makes conclusions without even having used the knives and asks questions he really doesn't want answers to. Trying to be helpful, everyone is chasing their tail sharing their expertise. What I know about Japanese knives could fill a thimble, but I do know a troll when I see one.

JMHO

Kind of a troll??? Geez. If he is the same guy that started that thread, this thread should end.

He also started a thread here previously that covers a lot of the same things in this thread - Shun Premiers v. Shun Reserves.

Eamon Burke
06-16-2012, 05:10 PM
Eh, I think he's just indecisive and a bit of a bull$H|++er. I can relate.

mhlee
06-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Eh, I think he's just indecisive and a bit of a bull$H|++er. I can relate.

I didn't find you to be a BSer. Just kind of hard to hear. :tongue:

mano
06-16-2012, 06:04 PM
Eh, I think he's just indecisive and a bit of a bull$H|++er. I can relate.

I'm thinking an immature guy who wants to get into Japanese knives but may never actually do it. His trolling is unintentional and harmless but he's an immature PITA.

I didn't know you back then, but you're past that phase, Eamon. :)

Justin0505
06-16-2012, 07:30 PM
Well, regardless, i thought that it was an interesting discussion. I came away from it with some new things to think about and better articulation of my own ideas.

Crothcipt
06-16-2012, 08:12 PM
lol reading that other thread and this one I think he figured he would have had a similar ending. Good thread other wise. A lot of great points, and some worth thinking about.