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JKerr
06-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Anyone had any experience with this steel? I've been checking out some of Butch's work recently and I'm sorely tempted to indulge. Seems like he's using CPM154 and XHP for his stainless options, and while I know CPM154 has a pretty good reputation, I haven't heard anything about XHP.

Cheers,
Josh

obtuse
06-16-2012, 11:18 PM
If I had the choice I would go cts xhp. I've been bugging Dave to make some knives out of it. :)

tk59
06-17-2012, 09:18 AM
If I had the choice I would go cts xhp...Why?

Chifunda
06-17-2012, 09:29 AM
I've had my XHP nakiri from Butch for four months now. It gets used every day and I'm STILL waiting for an excuse to take it to the stones. Just an occasional stropping and it continues to be way sharper than a kitchen knife needs to be...tree tops arm hair, push cuts receipt paper with complete ease, etc. Admittedly, I'm just a humble home cook, but I've never seen a knife with better edge holding capability.

Given a choice, I'd go with the XHP in a heartbeat. :2cents:

tk59
06-17-2012, 09:39 AM
I've had my XHP nakiri from Butch for four months now. It gets used every day and I'm STILL waiting for an excuse to take it to the stones. Just an occasional stropping and it continues to be way sharper than a kitchen knife needs to be...tree tops arm hair, push cuts receipt paper with complete ease, etc. Admittedly, I'm just a humble home cook, but I've never seen a knife with better edge holding capability.

Given a choice, I'd go with the XHP in a heartbeat. :2cents:What flavors of cpm-154 do you have to compare it to?

Andrew H
06-17-2012, 09:49 AM
I haven't tried cpm154 but I really like Butch's XHP. Feels pretty nice on the stones, okay to deburr and good sharpness (not carbon, of course).

Chifunda
06-17-2012, 12:59 PM
What flavors of cpm-154 do you have to compare it to?

None. You got me.

But I've owned and used knives made of 154CM, ATS-34, A2, D2, 440C, O1, and 52100, among others. Some pretty decent makers too: Loveless, Steve Johnson, Buster Warenski, Hoss, Bob Lum, Randall, George Herron and more.

Yeah, most of them were hunters rather than kitchen knives and no, I've never used a blade made of CPM154. But of all the steels I do have experience with, nothing has been the equal of Butch's XHP. This my own personal and highly subjective opinion, but it's based on better than fifty years worth of using top grade knives in the field, from Alaska to Zambia. Feel free to disagree; it won't hurt my feelings.

Maybe CPM154 is superior...but I don't see how it could surpass the performance of XHP in any meaningful way. Unless it might be easier to sharpen and as I said above, I haven't yet needed to sharpen my nakiri.:wink:

tk59
06-17-2012, 01:21 PM
I haven't tried CTS-XHP, at all. I'm just trying to get a feel for what to expect based on other steels I'm familiar with. I don't think CPM154 is particularly impressive in any way although it is nice in most respects. Just on paper, it looks like a high carbon sibling of 440C with a pinch of vanadium. That would probably mean good wear resistance with relatively low edge stability?

obtuse
06-17-2012, 02:43 PM
Where's larrin when you need him?

RRLOVER
06-17-2012, 03:00 PM
I would love to read more feed back on XHP compared to CPM154. I am impressed with CPM154 but will be trying XHP on my next batch for the experience.

Chifunda
06-17-2012, 03:52 PM
I would love to read more feed back on XHP compared to CPM154. I am impressed with CPM154 but will be trying XHP on my next batch for the experience.

Looks like that's in the offing. Rick (Pensacola Tiger) has generously offered to loan me his CPM154 Harner nakiri so I can do a mano a mano comparison.

Details to follow.:happymug:

tk59
06-17-2012, 04:57 PM
Looks like that's in the offing. Rick (Pensacola Tiger) has generously offered to loan me his CPM154 Harner nakiri so I can do a mano a mano comparison.

Details to follow.:happymug:Awesome! Looking forward to it. :)

Larrin
06-17-2012, 05:18 PM
Where's larrin when you need him?
They're both PM stainless steels with relatively high volume of carbides that will be dominated by chromium carbides. They're definitely in the same ballpark of performance. They'll have the same strengths and weaknesses. There will be some variation within that ballpark, of course, but I'm not particularly convinced that a "humble home cook" would be able to tell the difference in a blind test.

Chifunda
06-17-2012, 05:33 PM
They're both PM stainless steels with relatively high volume of carbides that will be dominated by chromium carbides. They're definitely in the same ballpark of performance. They'll have the same strengths and weaknesses. There will be some variation within that ballpark, of course, but I'm not particularly convinced that a "humble home cook" would be able to tell the difference in a blind test.

You may well be right, but it'll be fun...for me at least.:happy3: Think I'll leave the "blind test" cutting to Salty, though.:clown:

tk59
06-17-2012, 09:10 PM
They're both PM stainless steels with relatively high volume of carbides that will be dominated by chromium carbides. They're definitely in the same ballpark of performance. They'll have the same strengths and weaknesses. There will be some variation within that ballpark, of course, but I'm not particularly convinced that a "humble home cook" would be able to tell the difference in a blind test.That much more carbon has to make a difference just like it does on white 1 vs white 2 or AEB-L vs 19c27, no? How much Mo/V/W/etc do you need before you see some obvious difference?

Larrin
06-17-2012, 09:18 PM
That much more carbon has to make a difference just like it does on white 1 vs white 2 or AEB-L vs 19c27, no? How much Mo/V/W/etc do you need before you see some obvious difference?
The balance of carbon with the variety of carbide forming elements is much more complicated in these tool steels than it is with plain carbon steels. For example, in the S30V datasheet you can see the carbide volume of 440C, S30V, and CPM-154. CPM-154 has the highest carbide volume even though S30V has greater carbon. The steels are designed to have approximately equal amount of carbon in solution after heat treating so the primary differences will be in the carbides.

ajhuff
06-17-2012, 10:35 PM
The balance of carbon with the variety of carbide forming elements is much more complicated in these tool steels than it is with plain carbon steels. For example, in the S30V datasheet you can see the carbide volume of 440C, S30V, and CPM-154. CPM-154 has the highest carbide volume even though S30V has greater carbon. The steels are designed to have approximately equal amount of carbon in solution after heat treating so the primary differences will be in the carbides.

+1

-AJ

Pabloz
06-17-2012, 10:48 PM
The balance of carbon with the variety of carbide forming elements is much more complicated in these tool steels than it is with plain carbon steels. For example, in the S30V datasheet you can see the carbide volume of 440C, S30V, and CPM-154. CPM-154 has the highest carbide volume even though S30V has greater carbon. The steels are designed to have approximately equal amount of carbon in solution after heat treating so the primary differences will be in the carbides.

+1

The relative volume and size of each carbide (iron, chromium, vanadium, etc) is what makes the PM alloys excell.

Paco.McGraw
06-18-2012, 05:06 PM
I would be willing to bet that most people would not be able to tell the difference between CPM154 and Carpenter XHP.

I've got a couple of knives, all with Butch's heat treat, in both steels and they are almost identical.

I sharpen mostly with King 1k and 6k followed with a strop, and the CPM154 take a slightly smoother edge, though this may be due to me not being the perfect sharpener.

In terms of edge retention, they are both very similar.

If I was given a choice, I would take whichever one was cheaper. If they are the same price, go with whichever steel the maker is more comfortable working with.

-Sam

Ratton
06-19-2012, 07:38 AM
I have 2 knives from Butch in XHP and a couple of his knives in CPM154 and I really prefer the XHP. From what I have experienced the XHP steel keeps a much sharper edge a lot longer than the CPM154.

I definitely prefer the XHP! :2cents:

obtuse
06-19-2012, 08:00 AM
XHP has a higher obtainable hardness too, right?

StephanFowler
06-20-2012, 12:05 AM
I can't speak to a comparison on cpm154 but I have a Les George folder in CTS-XHP that easily outperforms any other stainless I've ever used


and I've had folders in-
s90v
s30v
154cm
440c (blech)
and D2 (not a stainless I know, but kinda in the ballpark)