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chinacats
06-20-2012, 01:22 AM
I am looking to add to my rather limited collection of J-knives. I would like this knife to complement rather than replace my current go to chef knife (Sab nogent). Specs of that knife are 10" and 225g, great steel that is a little soft by comparison to the Blue 1 on my Zakuri (tosa bocho) and the Blue Super of my new Carter (nakiri). I really like the profile of that knife (Sab) and would like something that resembles it to a pretty high degree. I have thought about going 210mm but am concerned that the flat spot may be too short, putting me back in the same spot I was in with my old Henckels-- (accordion cuts), so I am likely to go 240 instead unless there is a nice 210 option with a fairly large flat area. I think I would be fine with either blue or white steel, definitely carbon, definitely wa handle, preferably ultra-light. I also think I would like to try a single steel knife--not san-mai if I have my terms correct. I have one or two specifically in mind, but would like to hear what people think before showing my hand...

I think I may be optically challenged...I can look at knives for quite a while and pictures just don't necessarily help so much...as little sense as that may make...again, I know the profile I like, but can't be so sure I am seeing it until it is in my hand :scratchhead:



What type of knife(s) do you think you want?
wa-gyuto, laser type

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?
adding to complement my 10" sab nogent chef's

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
like: sharpness, steel, edge retention (through steeling), weight, size, will attack anything and not flinch/chip/etc...
dislike: edge retention (again steeling)

Aesthetics
a little wabi-sabi(?) is fine, but maybe not too much

Edge Quality/Retention-
quality over retention

Ease of Use-
???

Comfort-
wa handle, light knife

What grip do you use?
mostly pinch, but some finger pointing as of late

What kind of cutting motion do you use?
down and through (push), some chopping, some pull cuts

Where do you store them?
on counter until i build a new block--they are in sheaths:O

Have you ever oiled a handle?
yes

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?
end grain maple and a few others...

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?
a few stones (220, 700, 1k, 2k--plan on adding 5/6k), rods (2 smooth metal and one ceramic), sandpaper

Have they ever been sharpened?
yes, often

What is your budget?
~300

What do you cook and how often?
a little of everything, 4-5 nights a week plus

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?
Japanese/fine with a cheapo handle so i can use some of the wood i have accumulated from Mark

Thanks folks!

SameGuy
06-20-2012, 01:40 AM
The Masamoto KS profile appears to be quite similar to French chef profiles. It's not a laser by any stretch but it is much lighter and thinner than a classic Sabatier.

El Pescador
06-20-2012, 01:45 AM
Yoshihiro thin grind gyuto from 330mate on ebay.

Maluaka
06-20-2012, 01:51 AM
I'm gonna suggest Masamoto KS. It's not quite as thin at the spine as a Konosuke or Suisin but you wouldn't know it while cutting. It's thin behind the edge and just falls through food. It gives up nothing in cutting ability.

It also has a profile closer to a sab as well. Awesome for push cutting and I prefer it to the Konosuke/Suisin profile.

It's very light, easy to sharpen and takes a screaming edge. Haven't had any chipping issues even with a pretty steep bevel.

I have heard of some fit and finish issues lately but mine is flawless.

SameGuy
06-20-2012, 01:53 AM
Mine is nearly flawless as well. Only issue I notice is a bit of release resistance with smoother foods like new potatoes and cucumbers.

chinacats
06-20-2012, 02:14 AM
Yoshihiro thin grind gyuto from 330mate on ebay.
I couldn't find the Yoshihiro...have you used it before? Do you know if it is the same yoshihiro that Jon sells?

As to the KS, curious what the 240 weighs...my Sab 10" is right at 225g and I thought this was fairly light. I was hoping to find something in the sub-150 range. Anyone have spec's on a 240 ks?

SameGuy
06-20-2012, 02:29 AM
Well, my 270 weighs 192 grams so I doubt it'll come in under 150.

ETA: A quick Googlescan shows it to be between 162 and 168 grams.

chinacats
06-20-2012, 02:38 AM
Well, my 270 weighs 192 grams so I doubt it'll come in under 150.

ETA: A quick Googlescan shows it to be between 162 and 168 grams.

Thanks SameGuy, though not quite as light as I was hoping, but definitely worth considering. I should say that this is really meant to complement the Sab and not copy/replace it, I just want something with more or less similar profile. I really want something super-light/super-thin (though not flimsy).

obtuse
06-20-2012, 02:55 AM
Gesshin ginga

rhygin
06-20-2012, 03:01 AM
White steel tadatsuna. Sharpens up to razor easily (which is good, because it needs it fairly often), is super thin (about the same as the Suisin) and given it's grind/dimensions, cuts well even when dull (but who would ever let that happen, anyway).

chinacats
06-20-2012, 03:09 AM
Gesshin ginga

OK, this is getting more into the spec's that I am looking for...you used one? How is the profile or what would it compare to? Pro's Con's?

Tadatsuna looks pretty nice as well.

obtuse
06-20-2012, 03:18 AM
Profile, same as tadatsuna, suisin, konosuke. Grind, very thin behind edge, convex along blade face. Steel, AEB-L at 61 rc, takes a very good edge, easy to sharpen, average edge holding (better than white), good stain resistance. Ho wood handles are the nicest I've seen. Excellent fit and finish. One of the best performing gyutos out there. One of the best bang for buck.

markenki
06-20-2012, 03:19 AM
White steel tadatsuna. Sharpens up to razor easily (which is good, because it needs it fairly often), is super thin (about the same as the Suisin) and given it's grind/dimensions, cuts well even when dull (but who would ever let that happen, anyway).
+1
Although the handle is so nice you won't want to replace it.

chinacats
06-20-2012, 03:29 AM
I would be looking strictly at carbon in either, but these were both on my list before I posted. Profiles look very good to my eye, but again my eyes are not so good:( Sounds like both are winners in the f&f category.

Curious if the Tad and the GG are single steel knives or clad?

Heat treatment and grind on both have good reputation?

markenki
06-20-2012, 03:39 AM
Tadatsuna is single steel.

obtuse
06-20-2012, 04:05 AM
Gesshin is mono.

shankster
06-20-2012, 07:07 AM
Konosuke HD gets my vote!!!

labor of love
06-20-2012, 10:13 AM
ofcourse, you cant talk about about konosuke and gesshin ginga without atleast mentioning sakai yusuke. check them out in ebay.

tk59
06-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Masamoto is inconsistent and most other thin knives have a bit more belly than you are wanting. The last time I saw Jon, he showed me a flatter profiled Gesshin/Ashi. I think it was a prototype in stainless but I might give Jon a ring.

labor of love
06-20-2012, 11:16 AM
Masamoto is inconsistent and most other thin knives have a bit more belly than you are wanting. The last time I saw Jon, he showed me a flatter profiled Gesshin/Ashi. I think it was a prototype in stainless but I might give Jon a ring.

this sounds awesome.

chinacats
06-20-2012, 11:29 AM
The last time I saw Jon, he showed me a flatter profiled Gesshin/Ashi. I think it was a prototype in stainless but I might give Jon a ring.

That flatter profile would definitely fit the bill if made in wa/carbon...planned on calling Jon anyway and I noticed he now has 240's in stock. No rush so if new profile is coming in the not too distant, this is ideally what I would purchase.

Labor of Love--I will also look at the Sakai's...read quite a few nice things about them and sounds like they too are in the right weight class.

For now sounds like my list is down to GG, Tad, Sakai, and still haven't eliminated the Konosuke though not interested in the hd--too close to stainless for my tastes.

Thanks folks, thought this would be fairly simple choice, but back to about where I started.

tk59
06-20-2012, 11:30 AM
this sounds awesome.I thought so. He's testing out a few different prototypes, actually.

WiscoNole
06-21-2012, 02:22 AM
Tadatsuna for sure. Extremely thin and incredibly light. IMO the best handles around.

labor of love
06-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Tadatsuna for sure. Extremely thin and incredibly light. IMO the best handles around.

theyre pretty unattainable and have been that way for a while now.

markenki
06-21-2012, 11:23 AM
theyre pretty unattainable and have been that way for a while now.
You just gotta know where to look. Takeshi at aframestokyo has them in stock right now (210, 240, and 270).

labor of love
06-21-2012, 11:38 AM
i know where to look theyve been sold out forever. nice to see some back in stock.

chinacats
06-21-2012, 12:05 PM
OK, I have been studying the profiles of these and have narrowed/changed my direction. It looks like the Tad and the Masamoto have the closest profile to what I am looking for. Not sure about the Masamoto, but looks like the Tad would need to be rounded at the spine at the least, how about the Masamoto? The Sakai also has a nice profile and appears to be rounded for comfort. Obviously the Masamoto is the least laser-like, but seems to come at least as highly recommended. Ballpark prices are similar between the Masamoto and Tad while the Sakai is less. Again, handles mean very little as I will likely re-handle anything I purchase.

At this point I think I am leaning toward the Masamoto or Tad...anyone who has used all three or 2 of 3 have any input? Mainly interested in feel/profile. I am making the assumption that all 3 are heat treated and ground exceptionally well--any question on any of these knives in that regard--grind is a definite deal-breaker/maker?

Thanks

labor of love
06-21-2012, 12:17 PM
konosukes are cheaper than the others mentioned and they have inferior handles which would make them a great knife to rehandle. sakai yusukes are a $100 less than tadatsuna and everything about them is terrific.

markenki
06-21-2012, 02:10 PM
Not sure about the Masamoto, but looks like the Tad would need to be rounded at the spine at the least, how about the Masamoto?
My Tadatsuna has a nicely rounded spine. The choil is rounded as well, but not as nicely as the spine. Very comfortable to use.


i know where to look
No offense meant! Peace.

obtuse
06-21-2012, 03:26 PM
The profiles on all the Sakai pattern gyutos are essentially the same, suisin, konosule, Sakai yusuke, ashi/gesshin ginga, tadatsuna, even the mizuno laser.

labor of love
06-21-2012, 04:45 PM
theres also a white steel yoshihiro laser at their ebay store with saya thats reasonably price.

Maluaka
06-22-2012, 01:10 AM
The profiles on all the Sakai pattern gyutos are essentially the same, suisin, konosule, Sakai yusuke, ashi/gesshin ginga, tadatsuna, even the mizuno laser.

Yep,

Masamoto is the odd one out profile wise. Much flatter with a lower tip. Much more like a sabatier but maybe even a bit flatter. Spine on mine is fully rounded though not the choil for some reason. Though it is relieved a bit.

Don't own any of the others but I have used a Konosuke some. I don't feel like the Masamoto gives up anything for being a touch thicker at the spine. It tapers to being much thinner quite quickly as you go toward the tip. They measure long though, my 240 has a 255mm edge.

scotts
06-24-2012, 05:21 PM
I ordered a 240mm Sakai Yusuke Swedish Stainless with Ebony Handle (you obviously wouldn't need this), and extra hardness (61HRC). They also offer a "thin" version version of this knife as well if you want more of a laser. You have to ask for the extra hardness and thin versions though, they're not listed on his ebay (Bluewayjapan) auctions. The only thing is the maker is really busy so I was told it'll be about 2 months before I see the knife. Everything I've read though says they're fantastic knives so I don't mind waiting a bit.

SameGuy
06-24-2012, 06:54 PM
Awesome! I may contact them for a thin laser petty in w2.

labor of love
06-24-2012, 08:16 PM
I'm gonna suggest Masamoto KS. It's not quite as thin at the spine as a Konosuke or Suisin but you wouldn't know it while cutting. It's thin behind the edge and just falls through food.
how is the masamoto ks with wedging? i notice my moritaka ks can get stuck in food from time to time. not too often, but it does happen occasionally.

JohnyChai
06-24-2012, 08:30 PM
how is the masamoto ks with wedging? i notice my moritaka ks can get stuck in food from time to time. not too often, but it does happen occasionally.

The profiles are the same or similar but the grinds are different...haven't ever had a wedging issue with a KS...

Maluaka
06-24-2012, 08:54 PM
haven't ever had a wedging issue with a KS...

Me either. Just falls through whatever I try to cut. Thin behind the edge with a very subtle convex.

WiscoNole
06-24-2012, 09:47 PM
The Masamoto KS isn't a laser, but it is easily the best gyuto profile/shape available, IMO, and the best all-around gyuto I've ever used (of 20+).

My 240 (actual blade length 252) would be the last knife I would sell.