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Justin0505
06-30-2012, 04:29 PM
I've heard folks mention giving new carbon knives a rinse under hot water or vinegar to reduce reactivity, but I never thought of a full immersion in boiling vinegar:
http://youtu.be/DRtEPDzCa2A
- Interesting the way that the vinegar starts to foam and bubble after a few minutes. The first time I saw that, I woulda chickened and yanked my knife out.

I like the results. More pictures here:
http://www.lewisrazors.com/#/41-gallery/
and:
http://www.straightrazordesigns.com/the-custom-straight-razor-shop/charlie-lewis-razors/sold-razor-gallery

Have any of you straight razor junkies out there uses any of his work / heard reviews? I really like his style.

Birnando
06-30-2012, 04:50 PM
Have any of you straight razor junkies out there uses any of his work / heard reviews? I really like his style.

Yes, I do have a few razors from Charlie.
Stellar stuff, his work on steel is up there with the very best of them.
His design style is very unique and out of the box.
A Lewis razor is a true work of art in my book:)

richinva
06-30-2012, 04:55 PM
I've got a Tojiro ITK petty that is getting an overhaul, I think I'll try that tomorrow to see what happens.

Thanks for the nudge....................

R

Justin0505
06-30-2012, 05:18 PM
Yes, I do have a few razors from Charlie.
Stellar stuff, his work on steel is up there with the very best of them.
His design style is very unique and out of the box.
A Lewis razor is a true work of art in my book:)

Cool! Good to hear. Ive been thinking about getting into the straight razor world for years, but just never pulled the trigger because all of the really cool stuff that ive liked has been $1000.... But the prices on Lewis's work seems like a bargain for cool-looking hand-forged stuff.

ecchef
06-30-2012, 09:55 PM
Won't the heat screw up the temper?

Eamon Burke
06-30-2012, 10:01 PM
Won't the heat screw up the temper?

It's gotta get over about 400F/200C to mess up the temper.

Vertigo
06-30-2012, 10:07 PM
Won't the heat screw up the temper?

I'm definitely no metallagician, but I'm fairly sure that 213 degrees F isn't hot enough to mess with the temper of steel. Maybe wrong though.

ecchef
06-30-2012, 11:35 PM
In that case, I'll have to give it a shot.

Justin0505
07-03-2012, 07:04 PM
I gave this a shot with my Fowler custom poultry killer. I had mirror polished it, but lost the hamon in the process. The chicken & turkey patina wasn't particularly pretty, so I stripped it off and started with clean steel.
I really should have broken out the DSLR to shoot the video, my phone just doesn't handle color on reflective objects very well. The etch / patina is actually much darker than it appears in the videos. I'd say that they pre-cleaned etch is like 85% black. The finished result (after 3 cycles of etch & clean) is a dark, rich silver grey. Call it maybe 50-60% grey. Kind of like the dark grey metalic finish that you see on some cars.
The main thing though is that it REALLY brought out the contrast in the steel. Not only is the hamon clearly visible, you there are all of these little "waves" that run parallel along the blade road. I don't know how clear they are in the video, but they are pretty obvious in person, even after sharpening and polishing the bevel.

Here's the bath:

http://youtu.be/_MAAaX81iPQ

Here it is right out of the first etching bath and pre-cleaning. -It was BLACK.

http://youtu.be/LLpfImZ3Fco


After 3 etching and cleaning (w/ steel wool, water, paper towel) cycles. The finish didn't get much darker, but it did get much more even after each round:

http://youtu.be/l_r3_lB9XnE


After polishing the bevel (w/ j-nat) and sharpening. Again the video doesn't really do it justice; in person, the contrast between the first plane and the blade road/bevel is very high. The first plane or side of the knife where you can see the hamon is dark metalic grey and the bevel is a silver, misty mirror polish.

http://youtu.be/m5B6Ily4J4c

Crothcipt
07-03-2012, 09:16 PM
that is cool.

richinva
07-04-2012, 11:04 AM
So here's one I did this morning with a Tojiro ITK petty that I had removed the kuro-uchi finish and polished to about 2000. This was 3 trips through the bath, rinsing and cleaning after each with some 0000 steel wool.

I saw another video that added a few drops of dishwashing liquid to reduce surface tension, may try that on the next one, but not sure how it will do with boiling vinegar........

http://photos.imageevent.com/richinva/knivessharpening/websize/IMG_1193.JPG

Justin0505
07-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Looks cool! That ITK petty is a great little knife. Did the etch smooth out the rough, sand-blasted area above the edge or make it deeper?

It will be interesting to see how this finish holds up in use and what it does to reactivity.

Eamon Burke
07-04-2012, 12:43 PM
That is really cool! Why did the table of the blade near the spine etch to match the blade road? Was it finished differently?

richinva
07-04-2012, 01:24 PM
Looks cool! That ITK petty is a great little knife. Did the etch smooth out the rough, sand-blasted area above the edge or make it deeper?

It will be interesting to see how this finish holds up in use and what it does to reactivity.

I didn't polish all of that out, and you can see it if you look close. The etch didn't do anything to it except maybe even out the color.

richinva
07-04-2012, 01:27 PM
That is really cool! Why did the table of the blade near the spine etch to match the blade road? Was it finished differently?

Eamon,

Nothing different about the areas, all done the same. It really looked weird before I buffed off the black, quite the contrasting colors........ You'll have to tell me why it did that, I don't know. Is that where it's folded over itself? Maybe the HT makes that thicker area different?

richinva
07-04-2012, 01:31 PM
I have another Tojiro ITK 150 petty that I'm going to polish up and etch, maybe try something different with this one. If it goes well, the next will be the 210 gyuto, with a rehandle.

richinva
07-05-2012, 05:19 AM
And I should have clarified that the 2000 polish mentioned earlier is P2000, not JIS2000.

R

panda
05-09-2013, 02:33 AM
is 'etching' a functional patina? as in does it work to reduce reactivity? i ask because i am seeking the best way to patina for maximum blade protection. i dont care how it looks.

snowbrother
05-10-2013, 12:33 PM
is 'etching' a functional patina? as in does it work to reduce reactivity? i ask because i am seeking the best way to patina for maximum blade protection. i dont care how it looks.

I acid etched my Konusuke Fujiyama yanagiba and the white #1 doesnt react at all now. The blade is definitely duller with a blue hue to it, but I can cut through citrus or any of the lilies and it never reacts. I noticed it doesnt really rust anymore either. I had a really busy night on the line and left a it of water on it without realizing. As soon as I realized what I did, I dreaded the rust that I knew was going to be there. But there was no rust, I just wiped it down, dried it off and it looked the same as before.

panda
05-10-2013, 01:00 PM
that's exactly what i want, how do i go about doing that?

snowbrother
05-11-2013, 11:32 AM
that's exactly what i want, how do i go about doing that?


I did it a completely different way than what it is posted here. I heated up some cider vinegar and then soaked a cloth in it. I then wrapped that around the blade and wrapped rubber bands around it to hold it tight. I left it like that for about an hour, then I cleaned the blade off and repeated everything again. Because of the cloth, it ended up having a really cool pattern on the blade. I assume that you can use different texture cloth for different patterns.

K-Fed
05-12-2013, 06:43 AM
is 'etching' a functional patina? as in does it work to reduce reactivity? i ask because i am seeking the best way to patina for maximum blade protection. i dont care how it looks.
The only time that I was satisfied with the reactivity of the cladding on the zakuri that I had was after a few trips through a hot vinegar bath. After which the reactivity was little to none.

panda
05-12-2013, 11:06 AM
thanks, i'll give it a try.

Justin0505
05-12-2013, 07:01 PM
The original Fowler honesuki that I hot vinegar patina'ed is still goin strong with not even a hint of rust despite long sessions being coated in chicken carnage. I also just gave a new shig a few soaks in hot vinegar and I've had 0 reactivity issues.
If you really want a deep, long lasting finish, its important to clean the loose black oxide off the the blade in between baths. While the vinegar is re-heating, I first rins the blade under clean water and scrub with a rag and dish soap, then I lay it flat and use 00 steel wool and finally a thorough rub-down with paper-towel and acetone to remove any debris and oil before returning it to the bath.

cclin
05-12-2013, 08:05 PM
The original Fowler honesuki that I hot vinegar patina'ed is still goin strong with not even a hint of rust despite long sessions being coated in chicken carnage. I also just gave a new shig a few soaks in hot vinegar and I've had 0 reactivity issues.
I love to see picture of your hot vinegar etched shig if is possiable...:knife:

Justin0505
05-13-2013, 05:22 PM
I don't have any pics of the new nakiri yet, but here's my old gyuto that was done with the circuit board etchant
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bAYgp3T3CZk/T1Kwt7uPp5I/AAAAAAAALoQ/PEliAsb1e08/w1760-h1173-no/20120301-IMG_0082.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WyquCu14JxQ/T8e2sIoVraI/AAAAAAAAKG4/xGvW6K-8keM/w1760-h1173-no/IMG_0107.JPG
The etching solution creates much greater contrast between the metals, where the hot vinegar leaves a less obvious, more natural look that's closer to the contrast created by the polish that the shigs come with.
Neither the hot vinegar nor the etching acid impart any color. The color down near the edge you see in the pics came from where the etched layer was thinned due to sharpening and thinning and a natural patina took root. The etched metal is still just slightly reactive and it will take on some colors over time, just much, much slower than un-etched.

panda
05-14-2013, 02:01 AM
that looks sweet, like how oil/gas looks floating on water.

shaneg
05-14-2013, 03:11 AM
^^ nice patina, which gyuto is that?

cclin
05-14-2013, 04:02 AM
^^ nice patina, which gyuto is that?

Shigefusa Kitaji

rdmalak
05-19-2013, 03:27 PM
I decided to try this today on a couple of my Masakage knives, my petty and gyuto. I found out that the vinegar bath stripped off the finish on the petty so now it's completely naked. I kind of like it though. I think the gyuto came out the best. Really like the contrast in the transition and I noticed on the gyuto that you can see the metal grains on the cladding pretty well.

Gyuto
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1462_zpsb3ac8cd1.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1460_zpsc0245965.jpg

Petty
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1464_zps9b1cdc60.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1465_zps5eaf1ccf.jpg

This is a fun way to get a cool effect on your knives for very little work.

Justin0505
05-19-2013, 04:30 PM
Looks great! How many cycles waa that? Hows the reactivity?

rdmalak
05-19-2013, 04:41 PM
The gyuto got 3 baths and only 2 for the petty. I cut some tomatoes afterward and I got a bit of the usual smell but then it just disappeared and that was it.

r_icke
05-20-2013, 07:39 AM
Anyone tried this with a damascus knife, or have an idea what the effects would be on damascus? Just curious at the moment, but thinking of picking up a carbon damascus in the not too distant future.

Von blewitt
05-20-2013, 07:43 AM
I don't have any pics of the new nakiri yet, but here's my old gyuto that was done with the circuit board etchant
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bAYgp3T3CZk/T1Kwt7uPp5I/AAAAAAAALoQ/PEliAsb1e08/w1760-h1173-no/20120301-IMG_0082.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WyquCu14JxQ/T8e2sIoVraI/AAAAAAAAKG4/xGvW6K-8keM/w1760-h1173-no/IMG_0107.JPG
The etching solution creates much greater contrast between the metals, where the hot vinegar leaves a less obvious, more natural look that's closer to the contrast created by the polish that the shigs come with.
Neither the hot vinegar nor the etching acid impart any color. The color down near the edge you see in the pics came from where the etched layer was thinned due to sharpening and thinning and a natural patina took root. The etched metal is still just slightly reactive and it will take on some colors over time, just much, much slower than un-etched.

Like This? ^^^

r_icke
05-20-2013, 07:52 AM
I might have misread that post, but I thought it was done with etching solution rather than with vinegar.

Justin0505
05-29-2013, 11:52 AM
I might have misread that post, but I thought it was done with etching solution rather than with vinegar.

Yes, the shig was done with the PCB etchant, but it also had a light patina that developed OVER the etch.

Hot vinegar yields lower contrast, but a more "natural" look. The process takes a bit longer and obviously is very dependant on the reactivity of the steel (dont think it would work on stainless or very well on semi stainless). I just thinned and then re-etched the kitaeji nakiri that had the vinegar patina on it with PCB etchant and forgot to take pics of the vinegar finish before. Once it gets some more wear and needs another refinishing, I'll try to remember to switch back to hot vinegar and photo-document this time.

Really though, finishes on steel are VERY difficult to capture accurately in a photo and the finish is going to be different depending on the steel in your particular knife and how many cycles you do and for how long, what your level of polish was pre-etch, etc...

The best way to know what your knife is going to look like is just to try it yourself. You're not going to damage your blade (unless you fall asleep).

rdmalak
05-30-2013, 04:36 PM
I got my Hiromoto 240 gyuto today and went to thinning it right away. I didn't thin a lot but enough to make a difference. Then I etched it with hot vinegar. So this is my homage to Dave Martell. This knife will end up in his hands one day but for now this will do.

The blade does have a small over grind near the heel on the kanji side but once thinned properly it will disappear.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1475_zps7cc42d3f.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1484_zps7dcbe253.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/rmalak/IMG_1485_zps2cfc4937.jpg

Zwiefel
05-30-2013, 04:39 PM
Nice work!

Mucho Bocho
05-30-2013, 04:44 PM
spiffy!

Justin0505
05-30-2013, 06:15 PM
Cool! Turned out nice and dark.

rdmalak
05-30-2013, 06:37 PM
Thanks guys. I am really liking this knife so far. The AS takes a crazy edge!

rdm_magic
06-02-2013, 04:11 PM
What effect on re-activity will this have? I'm having some trouble with brunoise shallots getting dark after a few hours with my nogent..

panda
06-02-2013, 04:37 PM
did you wash the black stuff off and that's the end result? or did you leave that on to make it all badass looking like that?

rdmalak
06-02-2013, 05:46 PM
did you wash the black stuff off and that's the end result? or did you leave that on to make it all badass looking like that?

No that is what it looked like after I wiped it off and it was dried. I was surprised as well.

panda
06-02-2013, 06:08 PM
That's totally awesome. How many times did you do the vinegar bath?

rdmalak
06-02-2013, 07:43 PM
That's totally awesome. How many times did you do the vinegar bath?

I put it in twice for about 10 minutes at a time.

r_icke
06-03-2013, 03:07 PM
Yes, the shig was done with the PCB etchant, but it also had a light patina that developed OVER the etch.

Hot vinegar yields lower contrast, but a more "natural" look. The process takes a bit longer and obviously is very dependant on the reactivity of the steel (dont think it would work on stainless or very well on semi stainless). I just thinned and then re-etched the kitaeji nakiri that had the vinegar patina on it with PCB etchant and forgot to take pics of the vinegar finish before. Once it gets some more wear and needs another refinishing, I'll try to remember to switch back to hot vinegar and photo-document this time.

Really though, finishes on steel are VERY difficult to capture accurately in a photo and the finish is going to be different depending on the steel in your particular knife and how many cycles you do and for how long, what your level of polish was pre-etch, etc...

The best way to know what your knife is going to look like is just to try it yourself. You're not going to damage your blade (unless you fall asleep).

Thanks for a detailed response! Will definitely try this sometime just need a knife first that I can try it on :)

The kitaeji looks beautiful by the way.

Dave Martell
06-03-2013, 04:51 PM
Nice rdmalak!

BTW, all Hiros have that overgrind on the right side heel. Maybe it's from the kanji clean up? I don't know but it's always there and a pain to deal with.

panda
06-20-2013, 06:39 AM
just tried it on a damascus blue #2 petty via boiling vinegar bath x 2 @ 10mins ea, looks really ugly lol, i hope it works as a protective barrier! might try ferric chloride bath next time.

panda
06-20-2013, 07:46 AM
looks totally different in person (not attractive)
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd212/vlsun/vinegarpatina_zps56da0b86.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd212/vlsun/vinegarpatina3_zps087333b1.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd212/vlsun/vinegarpatina2_zps7c15bef9.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd212/vlsun/vinegarpatina4_zps1a8a0fc6.jpg

wsfarrell
06-20-2013, 03:22 PM
Hot vinegar works for some knives, and can have really nasty effects on others (e.g., pitting), as I've discovered the hard way (and maybe Panda has too). Room temperature for me from now on.

augerpro
06-20-2013, 04:51 PM
Yeah I'd be curious about any downsides to this. At minimum I assume you need to resharpen right away.

panda
06-20-2013, 05:10 PM
Yeah got pitting and factory edge disappeared.

Justin0505
06-20-2013, 08:17 PM
10min per bath sounds like a very long time for a reactive knife. It lools like it there was too much oxidation and the steel started to actually etch/ pit vs jusy patina.

Remember: any time you're trying a new steel: small steps and frequent assessment.

Few things: looks like there where a few uneven spots due to contamination or uneven finish. its very important to get an even finish (polish) over the whole blade first and then to to remove all contaminants: first with soap and water, then with alcohol or acetone.
Inbetween baths, give it a good scrubbing w/ soap and water and extra extra fine steel wool. Then degrease again w/ solvent.

The finish that you get will likely not be super high contrast but soft and subtle shades of silvery grey. The steel will be less reactive, but will still patina further with use.

If you clean the blade back up and deslcided to guve tge pcb etch a try, follow Daves directions in the knowledge sub forum (esp re: safety) very closely an remeber that the reaction will happen MUCH faster( in seconds, not minutes.)

panda
06-21-2013, 02:58 AM
justin could you share your process on how you etched your shig? i have a shig kasumi that i would like to etch to tame down that infamous reactivity.

Justin0505
06-21-2013, 07:50 PM
I've never really timed the bath time, I just watch the reaction. Using a clear container (like tall jar, jug, or vase) works well. Once i see the reaction start to to slow down a bit (fewer bubbles) I pull it out and give it a quick rinse and dry to stop the reaction and make sure that it doesn't continue in an uneven pattern as the blade dries. Then, I get the vinegar back on the heat to bring it back to a boil. While it's heating, I give the blade a more thorough cleaning / scrubbing and then dry and de-grease. Usually at some point before I'm done cleaning, it's time to take the vinegar off of the heat (you gotta watch is because it will boil over very easily).
Again, once you figure out a good bath time / when to pull it, the safest way to develop thicker/ more stable patina is by increasing the number of baths, not the length of bath.

That's my process's pretty much the same as in the video. No real "tricks" just watching the reaction, and building up bath times slowly till you get a feel for it, etc.

With my Shig's and more reactive knives, I've used the hot vinegar bath as a way to set a base layer and make establishing additional patina a more forgiving process, but then I've continued to develop additional patina either through natural use or additional forced methods.
Once such method for additional patina / more interesting color and pattern is to heat up the blade up by pouring on hot water and to then apply a thin layer of raw animal juice (beef blood works well), let it dry a bit, then rinse again under hot water. You will usually start to see the colors as the blade dries after the rise. Through experimentation, you will get a sense of where the line is between developing pretty colors / building up a protective layer and going too far and entering the realm of red/brown rust and pitting (just like with the vinegar bath).

If you want quicker and more dramatic results, then try the PCB etchant/ vinegar solution method outline in great detail by Dave: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6474-Damascus-Knives-amp-Re-Etchng - that process remind me much more of developing a photographic print in a dark-room: you actually see the charge / reaction happening right in front of your eyes, so learning when to stop is a bit easier. In general, it's a less fiddly process. I've got pics of my latest results on the last page.

cclin
06-24-2013, 03:35 PM
I received my Tanaka blue#2 135mm petty today. I rounded the Spine+choil & decide to use it as guinea pig for etching. I use 40% PCB etchant/60% vinegar solution then following Dave's instruction (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6474-Damascus-Knives-amp-Re-Etchng), wipe clean/dry, lightly polish with Flitz, finish up with 0000 steel wool and Camellia Oil . the result is quite nice....silver with dark gray color!
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130621_231308_zps964f682a.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130621_231308_zps964f682a.jpg.html)
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130621_231428_zps9b5e5e01.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130621_231428_zps9b5e5e01.jpg.html)
you can see core steel(Hagane) & soft steel cladding(Jigane) clearly from top of spine
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s482/54cclin/20130621_053707_zps8d396903.jpg (http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/54cclin/media/20130621_053707_zps8d396903.jpg.html)

panda
06-25-2013, 01:04 AM
That looks awesome!

panda
06-30-2013, 02:04 AM
quick question, why ferric chloride AND vinegar? arent you supposed to dilute the acid with water?