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sam salvati
07-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Some friends showed me this supposedly common grip among chefs, where you pinch the knife with your index and thumb and then grip the handle regularly with the remaining 3 fingers. I wanted to make a knife that can only be gripped that way (mainly), seeing as how most would grip a regular full hand length handle with the 3 finger grip. My girlfriend Alysia's parents just bought one of the Bob Kramer production knives, which is really sweet and has this big wide belly and a nice slender tip, I sort of modeled this blade like that but shortened it up by about 1/3. 5160, still need to clean it then finish grind the bevel.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293158_4264603984296_149657912_n.jpg

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/293158_4264604064298_872646492_n.jpg

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293158_4264604104299_555125865_n.jpg

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293158_4264604144300_93128511_n.jpg

Eamon Burke
07-06-2012, 02:15 AM
This is proof positive of a Wusthof chicken and egg scenario.

brainsausage
07-06-2012, 04:03 AM
Hmmm... More belly than I'd ever be comfy with, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't extremely blade centric. Lots of wrist fatigue, I'm guessing. Far better than I could accomplish though. Maybe tweak the geometry a bit...?

brainsausage
07-06-2012, 04:07 AM
[QUOTE=Rhino;124281]Hello Sam & almost everyone else! lol :D.

I'm new here, I've been a maker for a few years. I specialize in Culinary knives.
The pinchy grip thing is taught in Frenchy Chef schools and other places I am told.

Sam, You may want to leave a bit more on the handle even though you are planning on a pinch grip on this one. When watching a Pro Chef friend of mine use this technique, he will some times use the the rear of the handle as a counter weight for a fine mincing chopping stroke.

It's hard to tell how that one would balance? I just wanted to pass that on to you since you have made your first for a Pinch hold.

Laurence

Frenchy schools? I'ts proper form my friend. Pinch grip=control, detail, and safety.

Lefty
07-06-2012, 04:46 AM
It reminds me a bit of the old-school Pino knives you find in Italy.

Kinda cool, and I appreciate the effort.

Salty dog
07-06-2012, 07:56 AM
Most people use a pinch grip. Although they are limiting themselves if that's all they use.

Justin0505
07-06-2012, 12:17 PM
Hey Sam! It's always interesting when people try to approach design from a new / different angle. Too often people get caught up in what's "good" or "bad" / "right" or "wrong". But doing something a bit unorthodox and different has value and can lead to further understanding or innovation even if the original experiment is not successful in and of itself. So, thanks for sharing your experiment! First off, congrats on having the motivation to actual make something and the courage to share it on the internet for a bunch of opinionated keyboard smith's to scrutinize.

So here are my thoughts:
If you look carefully at the Kramer's design, there's a section of the blade near the heel that's almost totally flat and gives you a place where you can make good contact with the board and cut all the way though smaller stuff without needing to rock.
I'm not saying that it's "wrong" to omit this section, but it does make a pretty big difference in options you have for the type of cutting motions that you can use.
I have seem some knives with profiles like yours, and they are typically marketed as herb and fine mincing knives. I think that the reason that many people think rocking / big bellies are good for herbs and mincing, is that they are used to using knifes that are too dull to cleanly cut small and thin things without rolling over them and crushing them against the board. A curved edge makes less contact at any one point (that a flatter blade) so it places much more pressure (psi) on the area that does contact. This makes cutting with dull blade feel easier. It's a way of compensating for some type of deficit either in steel, maintenance, or user (technique).

One of the problems with a short knife with a very big belly and high tip, is that you have to really **** your wrist at an odd angle and raise your arm in-order to get the tip to make contact with the board.

Aside from maybe reducing over-all length (good for maybe travel or limited storage space?) I'm not sure what you're really gaining by shortening the handle, but you are giving up quite a few options when it comes to different grips. You design seems well suited to one style of "tight" pinch grip where all of the fingers are touching and you're almost making a fist. However, I most commonly use a more relaxed style of pinch where my pinching fingers are less vertical and my 3 rear fingers are relaxed and spread out a bit more so they actually take up much more of the handle than you might think.
The only style of knife that I've regularly seen use a short handle are Chinese slicing cleavers. However, the type of pinch that you use on these is very different in that the index finger is almost fully extended. Sometimes BOTH the index and middle finger will be on the blade in a grip almost like a "peace sign."

To see some good examples of basic (but by no means all) knife grips, Eamon's videos are some of the best / clearest / most straight forward I've seen:

http://youtu.be/f3TjTVkEd4w

and to see grips applied to cutting motions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8pgoMzVSs&feature=colike

and from the great and salty one:

http://youtu.be/Rx1U-bja3i8
This is one of my favorite and most used grips. Notice how far back on the handle most of his hand is and how his index finger is almost kinda hooked over the end of the handle around the neck? It keeps the bones in you fingers, hands, wrist all in line with your arm and lets the power / motion come from the arm and elbow (vs the hand and wrist) also, this requires very little squeezing force. These are all good things for comfort, power, speed, and long term joint and tendon health.

EDIT:
I just saw that the site sensors out the "c o c k" in "c o c k your wrist" I guess kkf considers bad ergonomics to be dirty words... :spankarse:

brainsausage
07-06-2012, 10:50 PM
Most people use a pinch grip. Although they are limiting themselves if that's all they use.

True. And by no means was I trying to say its the only way. I was just a little drunk and took umbrage at the frenchy school comment. P***ed me of for some reason. And I'm usually the first guy to point out what a waste of time schools are compared to working your way up from the bottom in a restaurant. Screw it. I blame the beer....

brainsausage
07-06-2012, 10:52 PM
Hey Sam! It's always interesting when people try to approach design from a new / different angle. Too often people get caught up in what's "good" or "bad" / "right" or "wrong". But doing something a bit unorthodox and different has value and can lead to further understanding or innovation even if the original experiment is not successful in and of itself. So, thanks for sharing your experiment! First off, congrats on having the motivation to actual make something and the courage to share it on the internet for a bunch of opinionated keyboard smith's to scrutinize.

So here are my thoughts:
If you look carefully at the Kramer's design, there's a section of the blade near the heel that's almost totally flat and gives you a place where you can make good contact with the board and cut all the way though smaller stuff without needing to rock.
I'm not saying that it's "wrong" to omit this section, but it does make a pretty big difference in options you have for the type of cutting motions that you can use.
I have seem some knives with profiles like yours, and they are typically marketed as herb and fine mincing knives. I think that the reason that many people think rocking / big bellies are good for herbs and mincing, is that they are used to using knifes that are too dull to cleanly cut small and thin things without rolling over them and crushing them against the board. A curved edge makes less contact at any one point (that a flatter blade) so it places much more pressure (psi) on the area that does contact. This makes cutting with dull blade feel easier. It's a way of compensating for some type of deficit either in steel, maintenance, or user (technique).

One of the problems with a short knife with a very big belly and high tip, is that you have to really **** your wrist at an odd angle and raise your arm in-order to get the tip to make contact with the board.

Aside from maybe reducing over-all length (good for maybe travel or limited storage space?) I'm not sure what you're really gaining by shortening the handle, but you are giving up quite a few options when it comes to different grips. You design seems well suited to one style of "tight" pinch grip where all of the fingers are touching and you're almost making a fist. However, I most commonly use a more relaxed style of pinch where my pinching fingers are less vertical and my 3 rear fingers are relaxed and spread out a bit more so they actually take up much more of the handle than you might think.
The only style of knife that I've regularly seen use a short handle are Chinese slicing cleavers. However, the type of pinch that you use on these is very different in that the index finger is almost fully extended. Sometimes BOTH the index and middle finger will be on the blade in a grip almost like a "peace sign."

To see some good examples of basic (but by no means all) knife grips, Eamon's videos are some of the best / clearest / most straight forward I've seen:

http://youtu.be/f3TjTVkEd4w

and to see grips applied to cutting motions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8pgoMzVSs&feature=colike

and from the great and salty one:

http://youtu.be/Rx1U-bja3i8
This is one of my favorite and most used grips. Notice how far back on the handle most of his hand is and how his index finger is almost kinda hooked over the end of the handle around the neck? It keeps the bones in you fingers, hands, wrist all in line with your arm and lets the power / motion come from the arm and elbow (vs the hand and wrist) also, this requires very little squeezing force. These are all good things for comfort, power, speed, and long term joint and tendon health.

EDIT:
I just saw that the site sensors out the "c o c k" in "c o c k your wrist" I guess kkf considers bad ergonomics to be dirty words... :spankarse:

That confused me, I was trying to fit a swear in there as a verb that would make sense...

Crothcipt
07-06-2012, 11:06 PM
lol looks like Rhino got deleted. Talk about not reading the site rules.:bat: Advertising his own knives. I think that the mods. did that so he wouldn't get flamed for his holes.:poke1::knifed::fishslap:

Sam I like the knife. I don't think it works like you wanted, for the reasons posted above. But, I think you are on a good path if you keep going with this thinking.

sachem allison
07-06-2012, 11:15 PM
you guys really should look at sam's other knives, he is not a noob, he makes some pretty badass knives and hammers.

sam salvati
07-07-2012, 12:27 AM
Justin thanks for that info!!! Just like that Kramer I did indeed grind a flat on the base of the edge there, hard to notice but it's there and about 1 1/2" long. I am not really a serious maker most of the time nor a serious chef (but I do like cutting stuff and eating meat), so I like to play alot with shapes and stuff. I knows youse guys is pros, but I won't be using this for 20 straight hours :D So I am happy with some oddball knives that get used for maybe 10 minutes a night that cut OK.

I know what makes a good kitchen knife, I have handled some of the best by Butch and Del and Takeda and Dave M and some that Dave was sharpening that were top o the line. I am just making for fun and trying some new stuff, so do love your input also as I would like to do fun weird stuff with good attributes.

Justin0505
07-07-2012, 03:42 AM
Ah, Ok it's so hard to see profile details in photos sometimes. Looking closer, I do see the small flat area.

Like I said, I'm all for oddball knives and experimentation. As long as you understand the idea of the rules design, grips, and ergonomics, then there is no problem departing from tradition for the sake of adventure or just to use something different.

As long as you are clear with your goals and the purpose of the knives (and not trying to sell Rhino chops like that other guy) I'm sure that people here will enjoy seeing the creations that come out of your laboratory.
How are you planning on finishing "the pinchy"? I'd like to see it all finished and in action.

Eamon Burke
07-07-2012, 11:17 AM
you guys really should look at sam's other knives, he is not a noob, he makes some pretty badass knives and hammers.

I know he's no noob, but I just find it amusing that the cooks he's talking to use a knife a certain way because they've been given Wusthofs and their knockoffs to use their whole career, and then adjusted their technique to them, and then when they want a knife made, those cooks are going to end up re-inventing the wheel.

It's like if I gave a dude a car with 3 wheels and he learned how to drive it, when you ask him about a custom car, he'd say "You know, I like a lot of cars, but most of them have 1 too many wheels..."

EdipisReks
07-07-2012, 01:17 PM
Some friends showed me this supposedly common grip among chefs, where you pinch the knife with your index and thumb and then grip the handle regularly with the remaining 3 fingers. I wanted to make a knife that can only be gripped that way (mainly), seeing as how most would grip a regular full hand length handle with the 3 finger grip. My girlfriend Alysia's parents just bought one of the Bob Kramer production knives, which is really sweet and has this big wide belly and a nice slender tip, I sort of modeled this blade like that but shortened it up by about 1/3. 5160, still need to clean it then finish grind the bevel.


you're misunderstanding how the Kramer knives are sharped. the Kramer blade deflects downwards significantly from the handle, so what looks like a lot of belly isn't. other than a fairly raised tip, it's quite a flat profile, as the blade is very triangular.

sam salvati
07-30-2012, 08:28 PM
Hey fellas, sorry for the lack of response, been away from internet connection.

Justin0505, I finished it out got to post some pictures. have not had a chance to use it yet though.

Edipis, *headslap* you are correct, I had a chance between making this blade to handle the kramer again, it is quite an optical illusion!! I will try again.

on another note I have a new top secret material that shows alot of promise!

Don Nguyen
07-31-2012, 01:16 AM
Hi Sam, nice to see you on here! Could you possible be talking about the... integral....?