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dennis7490
07-15-2012, 05:14 PM
Hi,

I got my first high carbon, a Moritaka petty knife, 150mm, a KP-150 Blue.

the width of the heel, from top to bottom is shallow, and I have cut myself a couple of times. I love the steel (once I learned how to sharpen it)

I am now thinking about a Deba or a Chef (A japanese version). I like the thinness of the petty blade (Not insanely thin, but very nice). Is the Deba a lot thicker??? Any suggestions for a high carbon chef? In 6"! I have an 8" old Henckels that I love.

Thanks,

Dennis

Eamon Burke
07-15-2012, 05:24 PM
The Japanese equivalent to a chef's is called a Gyuto. It is a traditional Thiers/Sheffield style Chef's Knife processed through Japanese cutlery sensibilities.

A Deba is for filleting fish like this, and not much else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrBjgFfeo4A

If you want more height at the heel, you are not going to find it with a petty.

SO

If you are looking for a 8"/210mm Carbon Steel Japanese Gyuto...prepare to get a thousand answers. As much information as you can give us will help, I.E. Budget, aesthetic style, etc.

dennis7490
07-15-2012, 05:45 PM
Thank you. what I really want is a 6" Gyuto that has about the same thickness of blade as my KP-150 Blue Moritaka, but more depth between the bottom of the collar and the blade of the heel.
Hopefully that makes sense.

Thanks,

Dennis

Eamon Burke
07-15-2012, 06:03 PM
So you want exactly that knife, but with more heel height?

Get the Moritaka Supreme 150mm Honesuki.

dennis7490
07-15-2012, 06:44 PM
So you want exactly that knife, but with more heel height?

Get the Moritaka Supreme 150mm Honesuki.

Yes. That seems to boil down my meanderings quite succinctly. thank you.

Eamon Burke
07-15-2012, 06:45 PM
Sweet! I hope you love it. I live vicariously through those who have money and need for more knives.

bkdc
07-15-2012, 07:39 PM
It sounds like he wants a Santoku or Funayuki or small gyuto. He wants a small wide blade. I'm not a fan of small chefs, but they have their place. 180mm gyutos are not a popular size, but it's a 180mm gyuto or a Santoku type blade if he's looking for a more standard profile (not honesuki).

Andrew H
07-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Sounds like a perfect opportunity to buy a Carter. Thin, the right length, great steel.

The Edge
07-15-2012, 10:37 PM
I'll second the Carter for what you're looking for. He usually has a lot of options in that size that have the same profile as a gyuto.

Eamon Burke
07-15-2012, 10:40 PM
A Carter Funayuki will not have much more knuckle clearance, if not less. It's also pretty dang thin, thinner than the Moritaka. And not Blue steel, which he said he likes. Other Carters (not the SFGZ Funy) are a way higher price bracket.

Andrew H
07-15-2012, 11:36 PM
A Carter Funayuki will not have much more knuckle clearance, if not less. It's also pretty dang thin, thinner than the Moritaka. And not Blue steel, which he said he likes. Other Carters (not the SFGZ Funy) are a way higher price bracket.

I think you're going to have a hard time arguing that a Moritaka (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1367-Moritaka-how-long) honesuki is a better all around knife than a Carter SFGZ funy.

Eamon Burke
07-16-2012, 02:30 AM
I think the size he wants precludes any knife from being a good all-rounder.

But if we were just offering opinion picks for ourselves, he should get a 240mm Shigefusa Kitaeji Gyuto.

Andrew H
07-16-2012, 02:43 AM
I think the size he wants precludes any knife from being a good all-rounder.

But if we were just offering opinion picks for ourselves, he should get a 240mm Shigefusa Kitaeji Gyuto.

That's not what I said; but I do agree that a shig 240 kitaeji would be the best choice. :D

bkdc
07-16-2012, 07:17 AM
Not all funayuki knives are made by Murray Carter. :)

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri/zakuri-165mm-blue-1-funayuki.html#

Keith Neal
07-16-2012, 07:35 AM
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m580/nealkeith/USknives.jpg

Here is a comparison of the height of a Carter funayuki to Devin and Martell gyutos. The Carter seems to have plenty of knuckle clearance to me.

EdipisReks
07-16-2012, 09:30 AM
I think the size he wants precludes any knife from being a good all-rounder.

But if we were just offering opinion picks for ourselves, he should get a 240mm Shigefusa Kitaeji Gyuto.

no no no, he should buy a 240mm Shigefusa kasumi gyuto with Keller handle. :)

Eamon Burke
07-16-2012, 11:05 AM
I'm not saying the Carter isn't a better knife(I think it is, except for the handle), but he said he likes everything about his Moritaka except the heel is too low, and the carter is not as direct a comparison. He could also get a 170mm Santoku, but the tip is totally different.

So I suggested the obvious--the Moritaka with a tall heel. I've used a Honesuki and a few of it's derivatives as an all rounder, and it works great. It's not even a crazy profile, it's the same as most petties, just slanted.

dennis7490
07-16-2012, 12:17 PM
Hi,

I'm the original poster. I checked out Gyuto knives and did not find one in the 180mm length. I did find the Bob Kramer carbon chef at 6" and might do that, but it's a bit pricey, so I have to give it some thought. But that is the kind of heel I want, although I prefer a straighter blade, more in the shape of my 150mm petty. any suggestions?

Thanks,

Dennis

Justin0505
07-16-2012, 02:32 PM
If you reduce the specs down to something like this:
-180mm
-good, easy to sharpen carbon
-more height over the heel than a petty
-thin
-flatter profiles (more blade contact with board) than a gyuto
-not much more expensive than Moritaka petty


To me, that cries out "NAKIRI!!!!!" Yeah, it doesn't have a tip, but if you want to maximize height and board contact in a short blade, you have to give something up. Plus, you already have 2 pointy knives.
I think that nakiri's make awesome little all-round utility blades. The flat nose makes a great board scrapper and the wide "mini license plate" shape makes them great for scooping up cut product and gives you plenty of knuckle contact above the edge(extra safety) over the entire length of the blade.

I have given a few of the Tojiro Shirogami line nakiri's as "first carbon j-knife" presents. They're a little shorter than what you asked for (165mm), but the White II steel is very good and for $50 they're a great way to try one out. The only thing is that they come with this stupid "fake kasumi" frosted finish on the bevel that adds texture and drag to the blade... so I always take some time to grind that smooth and then polish the bevels.

If you're OK spending more to get something longer super thin and high performance, I have heard nothing but rave reviews of Carter's SFGZ line nakiris (I have 4 of his knives, just not a nakiri) If you find it's not for you, re-sale is usually pretty easy on the buy / sell / trade section of this forum.

EDIT:
oh, I also forgot that if you really want blue steel and 180mm length at a very resonable price, there's always Zakuri: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/nakiri/zakuri-180mm-blue-1-kurouchi-nakiri.html#
It's pretty rare to see Blue #1 because it's more difficult to forge than blue #2, but it's higher carbon... and I've never seen it at this price.
The Zakuri also come with that "frosted kazumi" crap on the bevel, but it's much less rough and easier to smooth than on the Tojiro. I don't know how performance will compare, but the Zakiri is probably going to be a bit thicker at the spine than the Tojiro.

Colorado_cutter
07-16-2012, 03:16 PM
Hi,

I got my first high carbon, a Moritaka petty knife, 150mm, a KP-150 Blue.

the width of the heel, from top to bottom is shallow, and I have cut myself a couple of times. I love the steel (once I learned how to sharpen it)

I am now thinking about a Deba or a Chef (A japanese version). I like the thinness of the petty blade (Not insanely thin, but very nice). Is the Deba a lot thicker??? Any suggestions for a high carbon chef? In 6"! I have an 8" old Henckels that I love.

Thanks,

Dennis

How did you cut yourself on the Moritaka? Did you nick yourself on the pointy edge of the heel? I nicked myself a time or two on my Fujiwara petty that way, and then very slightly dulled the heel on a coarse stone and haven't had a problem since. I probably lost .25mm of edge or something like that. Funny, the Fujiwara petty came with the heel sharper than the tip!

jaybett
07-16-2012, 03:27 PM
Are you saying that you couldn't find any 180mm Gyutos or didn't find any that you liked? If it is the former here is a link: http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html.

A Kramer is similar to a very thin Nakiri with an even thinner tip. The Nakiri has a long relatively flat edge. It will have more of its edge in contact with the board then a larger Gyuto. Typically there are also thin knifes, so they will easily glide through veggies. The lack of a tip is noticeable when trying to trim proteins or following the curve of a round fruit. It can be done, its just a bit awkward.

A larger version of a petty, would be a Sujihiki. There are available in 180mm.

Improved suggestions could be made, if there was a better understanding of why you are looking for a larger heel, is it for knuckle clearance, wanting a chopping knife or ...?

Jay

dennis7490
07-16-2012, 03:46 PM
I cut myself on the heel. Not badly, but I seem to be grabbing it in such a way that my index finger grabs the shallow heel...the blade part.

dennis7490
07-16-2012, 04:02 PM
P.S. No stainless. White or blue #2 (I think that's what you call them.) Once i learned to sharpen my Blue steel Petty it's my go-to knife. And holds the edge. I am looking at the boning knives. I like the point, and relief at the heel.

Justin0505
07-16-2012, 05:25 PM
This is also the type of situation that often leads people to making their first custom knife order...
A knife this size shouldn't be too terribly expensive and there are plenty of makers and hobbyist folks on here that I'm sure could make your dreams come true for a very reasonable price. I know that WillC of Catchside has some blue #2 steel, but frankly, I think that any good carbon still, properly HT'ed will make you happy. W2 and 01 both behave very similarly to Hitachi steels in terms of ease of sharpening and insane edge potential.

chinacats
07-16-2012, 08:07 PM
How did you cut yourself on the Moritaka? Did you nick yourself on the pointy edge of the heel? I nicked myself a time or two on my Fujiwara petty that way, and then very slightly dulled the heel on a coarse stone and haven't had a problem since. I probably lost .25mm of edge or something like that. Funny, the Fujiwara petty came with the heel sharper than the tip!

Welcome Colorado Cutter!

Did the same to my Carter nakiri because it kept digging into the board...bad technique!

Crothcipt
07-16-2012, 08:24 PM
Welcome Colorado Cutter.

chinacats
07-16-2012, 11:00 PM
P.S. No stainless. White or blue #2 (I think that's what you call them.) Once i learned to sharpen my Blue steel Petty it's my go-to knife. And holds the edge. I am looking at the boning knives. I like the point, and relief at the heel.
I believe the Misono Swedish carbon has a nice variety of smaller sized gyuto's, though I have not used them.

cookinstuff
07-17-2012, 02:40 AM
I vote for a Stephan Fowler petty, some of his are taller, I have a 210 that I use for everything, he makes pretty much any size, little bit pricier than Moritakas though. If you got the money, a Carter Funayuki is always a good choice.

JasonD
07-17-2012, 08:33 AM
I don't know how you feel about the finish level, but sounds like that little Tosa bocho (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri/zakuri-165mm-blue-1-kurouchi-tosagata-bocho.html) from Zakuri at JKI would be a good choice too. Same rustic feel as the moritaka, nice Blue#1 steel, and excellent price tag hehe.

Timthebeaver
07-17-2012, 09:43 AM
Watanabe? blue/stainless kuro-uchi petty? Definitely a "petit gyuto".

http://*******.com/d2wx2gx

dennis7490
07-17-2012, 11:19 AM
Thank you, all. Although its seems stunningly fatuous that i did not think of dulling the hell...but I didn't. A few of the knives recommended are very tempting, so i think I'll dull the heel for now and keep shopping. I'm still thinking about the 6" Kramer high carbon chef, but the Stephen fowler is certainly very attractive, too.

DeepCSweede
07-17-2012, 11:31 AM
Thank you, all. Although its seems stunningly fatuous that i did not think of dulling the hell...but I didn't. A few of the knives recommended are very tempting, so i think I'll dull the heel for now and keep shopping. I'm still thinking about the 6" Kramer high carbon chef, but the Stephen fowler is certainly very attractive, too.

If you have a Sur La Table near you, I would go and try it out in the store and see if it will fit your needs. I did that when I picked up my 10" chef knife. I was leaning towards the 8" but the 10" felt right.

dennis7490
07-17-2012, 11:50 AM
I do have one near me. Being able to handle the knife is very important.