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dennis7490
08-05-2012, 02:28 PM
I have a Moritaka Petty 150mm in Aogami Super Steel. it's not that old, about a month. It comes in a kind of "two-tone" finish, i.e. silver on bottom and black on top. the black on top seems to be wearing off. Is this normal? I have always owned some old carbon knives of one tone, or stainless, like the shun knives, so i don't know.

While I'm at it, I checked out the 6" Bob Kramer chef in carbon. The handle is too fat for me, but I like the depth of the blade where it connects to the handle, from top to bottom of heel (not thickness, but height or depth, whatever it is called) Also the Shun 6" chef, but I want carbon, and not a Santouki. I like a point.

Note, I am not crazy about these small, octagonal handle on a lot of Japanese knives. I do like the Shun D shaped handles, but not the VG-10 steel.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Dennis

p.s. I was pretty set on the bob Kramer, but when I held it in my hand did not like the feel.

knyfeknerd
08-05-2012, 03:00 PM
What's your budget?

Pensacola Tiger
08-05-2012, 03:04 PM
Your Moritaka is a kuro-uchi finished knife, and the "black stuff" is forge scale. I can't say it's normal for the finish to come off, as I have kuro-uchi knives that have not lost any of their finish, but I understand it is a common occurrence, especially with Moritaka knives. If it is flaking off into the food you are cutting, you can remove it all with abrasives and then force a patina on the very reactive steel under the finish. There are a couple of threads about the Tojiro ITK series knives where this has been done and the results are very pleasing.

If you are seriously considering spending that kind of cash on a Zwilling-Kramer, I would strongly suggest looking into a custom made knife, where you can combine a tall heel with a profile to suit your style and handle to suit your preferences. If you keep your handle wood selection conservative, and use O1 or 1084 carbon steel, the price should be reasonable. There are several smiths active in this forum who do high quality work, but you should look for one that has experience with Western handled knives. One I can highly recommend as very easy to talk to and work with to get the knife of your dreams is Pierre Rodrigue. He has made several Western handled knives for members of this forum. Another is the owner of this forum, Dave Martell. There are also some hobbyist-craftsmen like Don Nguyen and Mario Ingoglia (RRLOVER) that you could consider.

There may be a wait, but it is worth it.

Rick

dennis7490
08-05-2012, 04:03 PM
I was going to spend $150 and bought the Moritaka. Love the steel, but not the handle or the shallow heel. Still like the knife though. I figure I'll have to spend between $200-$300 to find what I want. I will check off the shelf stuff first, and go from there.

thanks,

Dennis

Pensacola Tiger
08-05-2012, 04:08 PM
I suggested a custom because there aren't many off the shelf knives that are tall at the heel like the Z-K's with a Western handle.


I was going to spend $150 and bought the Moritaka. Love the steel, but not the handle or the shallow heel. Still like the knife though. I figure I'll have to spend between $200-$300 to find what I want. I will check off the shelf stuff first, and go from there.

thanks,

Dennis

jaybett
08-05-2012, 08:24 PM
The Kuro-uchi finish on my Moritaka appears to be applied after the forging process. It does come off easily. The finish on Takeda is much harder and wear resistant.

Have you checked out the Funayuki shaped knifes?

Moritaka does custom orders. A Funayuki in AS, with a D handle may be a good solution.

When I read, your description of the type of knife you want, I think Honesuki. A Carbonext, with a western handle is $100.00.

Jon with JKI, has some interesting stuff. In the Geshin Ginga line, there is the Fukuro and home sets. The Zakuri line, has a Funauki. Jon could also special order a knife that meets your requirements.

Jay

tkern
08-05-2012, 08:39 PM
To second Pensacola tiger, remove the remaining kurouchi and immediately force a patina on it. I have a Moritaka that I had the same problem with.

dennis7490
08-08-2012, 06:04 PM
Jaybett,

Thanks. Took a look at the Funayuki at JKI. Out of stock and a octagon handle, but it seems to be very much what I want. Also considering the Myabi (sp?) 6" chef. Not crazy about the stainless steel, but really like the way the knife looks, and feels in the hand. I hear good things about that stainless. Tried the Kramer 6" chef at SLT and the handle was too fat in the palm. I guess it's the small things that make you nuts in life! But you really have to handle a knife to know if it's right.

mpukas
08-08-2012, 06:58 PM
The kuro-uchi finish on Moritakas does come off easily - but I suggest the opposite of the guys above - LEAVE IT ALONE! Because the metal cladding is highly reactive but does not take a patina as other cladding steels do. I've tried that with my 270 kiri-gyuot and just ended up with a stink bomb. I have the 150 petty too, and like it quite a bit. I use it for in hand work, and the KU has help up fairly well. I don't use a petty nearly as much as a gyuto, so it's surviving better.

I suggest for a new knife recomendation that you start off with more about what you are looking for in a knife and what you intend to use it for - check out the new knife quesitonaire for guidelines and start with that.

As far as handles go, check out the Yusuke knives from Blue Way Japan on ebay - they have octagonal handles but run a tad bigger than others, and personally I like them a lot. Each handle for every size and style of knife is modified to suit the blade.

And as always, get in touch w/ Jon @ JKI... infinite wisdom.

knyfeknerd
08-08-2012, 07:17 PM
What kind of a grip are you using? With a pinch grip I don't find any handles(unless they are too big) to be that uncomfortable.

dennis7490
08-09-2012, 10:09 AM
I'm not a professional chef, but I am the main cook at home and cook a lot. I think the size of the knife dictates my grip. A bigger chef's knife I use a pinch grip. Smaller knives, like a petty I use more of the handle. But it's the feel for me. I like Shun handles, and have three Shun knives, a 5.5 Santouki, 7" Santouki and a 6" boning knife. The boning knife I never liked. No flex. I use my old Dexter high carbon for boning. My new Moritaka has replaced the 5.5 Santouoki, and for bigger work I use a #4 Henckels that I'v had since about 1980. I want a 6" chef, something like a Santouki with a point, which is why I was looking at the 6" Kramer chef, but hefting it in the store, the handle felt very fat in my hand. The Mayubi felt very nice, but not sure about the SG2 steel. I'm researching it.

DeepCSweede
08-09-2012, 10:29 AM
You may want to look at the Carter Wa-Bocho. The profile is santoku with a tip if that is what you are looking for. There are several on his site right now in the High Grade (HG) series. A lot of people on the forum prefer the SFGZ series because you don't get a lot more with HG for the price, but I personally like the ebony handle on mine. The steel is white laminated with Stainless.

dennis7490
08-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Wow. Those Carter knives are nice. I must admit that these knives are beginning to piss me off, because no sooner do i set a price limit for what I want, than I look at a picture and the price limit goes up! Will check out the full line of carter knives. Lot of nice stuff! thanks.

Pensacola Tiger
08-10-2012, 11:18 AM
Wow. Those Carter knives are nice. I must admit that these knives are beginning to piss me off, because no sooner do i set a price limit for what I want, than I look at a picture and the price limit goes up! Will check out the full line of carter knives. Lot of nice stuff! thanks.

Dive into the deep end, and go look at Bill Burke's knives. :D

http://www.epicedge.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=706&cat=Burke%2C+Bill%2C+M%2ES%2E

dennis7490
08-10-2012, 06:48 PM
Checked it out. bottom line: I cannot afford the knife AND a divorce simultaneously. Will have to pass. But nice eye candy.

As an aside, what is the deal with stainless (today) vs high carbon? Is an SG2 core as good as Blue steel #2? Is a stainless clad knife "less" than a high carbon? Just some thoughts.

Pensacola Tiger
08-10-2012, 06:58 PM
Checked it out. bottom line: I cannot afford the knife AND a divorce simultaneously. Will have to pass. But nice eye candy.

As an aside, what is the deal with stainless (today) vs high carbon? Is an SG2 core as good as Blue steel #2? Is a stainless clad knife "less" than a high carbon? Just some thoughts.

It's not the steel, but the maker. The heat treatment and grind are more important than the material the blade is made from.

dennis7490
08-10-2012, 07:45 PM
So, stainless clad white would be superior to an SG@ Myabi? (sp?)

dennis7490
08-10-2012, 07:46 PM
CORRECTION:

A stainless clad white by Carter...etc.

Pensacola Tiger
08-10-2012, 09:22 PM
Superior in what aspect? In pure "gee whiz" cutting performance, a Carter is hard to beat, but it falls short in other areas like fit and finish.

dennis7490
08-11-2012, 10:11 AM
I do like the fit and finish of the Miyabi with the birch handle and the SG2 steel. I'm reluctant because so many people knock it on this forum. I'm also reluctant to spend $300 (Carter) on a knife that i haven't held in my hand. SLT is local for me. So is JKI. What are your thoughts on the Miyabi SG2?

chinacats
08-11-2012, 11:06 AM
A less expensive way to check out a Carter...

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7808-FS-Carter-7-4sun-kurouchi-funayuki

dennis7490
08-11-2012, 11:20 AM
Thank you. Too long. I have an 8" chef knife. I just checked out the Carter site and found this knife:

5.7sun High Grade Fuanayuki, Ho/Blond Buffalo Horn Handle

I think it was $320. Very clean lines; good height at heel; round handle; Am giving it serious thought.

This is also an education for me. When I first found this site i thought I knew something about knives. I discovered i knew nothing! Great trip, though.

jaybett
08-12-2012, 03:40 PM
I do like the fit and finish of the Miyabi with the birch handle and the SG2 steel. I'm reluctant because so many people knock it on this forum. I'm also reluctant to spend $300 (Carter) on a knife that i haven't held in my hand. SLT is local for me. So is JKI. What are your thoughts on the Miyabi SG2?

The forum is focused on finding knives that cut very well, at reasonable prices. Most people on the forum would be willing to sacrifice fit and finish for performance. Carter and Takeda are good examples of knives that have rough fit and finish, but excel at cutting.

In light of what the forum considers important, the Miyabi, isn't a going to hold a top spot. But the Miyabi, may be the best choice for you. Considering what you are wanting out of knife, i.e: Short length, knuckle clearance, carbon, a pointy tip, d shaped handle. It meets all your requirements.

Jay

Mike9
08-12-2012, 04:38 PM
Have you checked out the Tojiro Shirogami line? I received the 150mm Petty in white #2 yesterday and in half an hour I had the kurouchi finish removed, rounded the spine, ease the choil edges and touched up the cutting edge and this knife is a real screamer. It falls through work like nothing. I'm thinking of replacing my Shun Santoku with a Tojiro. I recently got a Tanaka 240 mm Wa-Gyuto in #2 blue damascus. A really nice knife with an oval handle. I'm very impressed with the Tojiro Shirogami knives - best bang for the buck I've found in a long time.

chinacats
08-12-2012, 09:31 PM
Have you checked out the Tojiro Shirogami line? I received the 150mm Petty in white #2 yesterday and in half an hour I had the kurouchi finish removed, rounded the spine, ease the choil edges and touched up the cutting edge and this knife is a real screamer. It falls through work like nothing. I'm thinking of replacing my Shun Santoku with a Tojiro. I recently got a Tanaka 240 mm Wa-Gyuto in #2 blue damascus. A really nice knife with an oval handle. I'm very impressed with the Tojiro Shirogami knives - best bang for the buck I've found in a long time.

Some do not come with the best grinds, and though not terrible deal for the price, like anything else you get what you pay for...

I have a petty that has a rather nasty overgrind toward the heel, ymmv.

Mike9
08-12-2012, 10:56 PM
The edge on mine came perfect - no over grind and I like the look with the kurouchi removed and the blade polished some. I'll probably force a patina in the near future.

dennis7490
08-13-2012, 11:14 AM
They look like great knives for the money. Seems hard to beat. My Moritaka Petty 150mm in Aogami Super Steel is my first journey into traditional Japanese knives, and after cutting my finger twice at the beginning, I've gotten used to it, and it has become my "go to" knife. As i said, I have 3 shun knives and I think I am going to put them in drawer. I also have an old Henckels (#4 I think) from about 1980, which now seems heavy, but i will keep it out for cutting chickens in half, etc.
Great info, and I am enjoying the shopping for the knife as much as I'm sure I will the cutting!

Mike9
08-13-2012, 09:07 PM
For cutting up chickens nothing beats a Deba IMO. Been cutting up chickens for 40+ yrs and till I got my Deba it felt like work. Nowadays it's nothing to breeze through 10 - 15 lbs of leg quarters in no time. I actually look forward to it - LOL.

chinacats
08-13-2012, 09:16 PM
For cutting up chickens nothing beats a Deba IMO. Been cutting up chickens for 40+ yrs and till I got my Deba it felt like work. Nowadays it's nothing to breeze through 10 - 15 lbs of leg quarters in no time. I actually look forward to it - LOL.

I don't use a deba, but this thread may make you rethink that...coming from guys who know deba and how to use it.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7746-Help-a-guy-out-with-a-deba

jaybett
08-13-2012, 10:17 PM
I don't use a deba, but this thread may make you rethink that...coming from guys who know deba and how to use it.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7746-Help-a-guy-out-with-a-deba

Or this one....

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/7771-Dispelling-Myths

Jay

Mike9
08-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Let me rephrase this - I use my Deba for separating at the joints not for chopping through bone. I have a heavy cleaver for that. One thing I like about my Deba is the weight glides through the articulations with little if any effort. On whole fish it's an amazing knife considering I grew up using the Rapala type of fillet knife (which I still own).