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cclin
08-07-2012, 11:24 PM
hi: I'm thinking buy a Shiro-ko #3(white#3)Honyaki Gyuto. However, never have any experience with white steel blade. please tell me more characteristic about Shiro-ko #3(white#3)steel. does it get rust/patina easy? does it reactive with food? how about compare blue#1,#2, AS, white#1,#2 & 52100??:scratchhead: thanks!!

Justin0505
08-08-2012, 12:11 AM
I had 1 knife that made of it. It was san-mai, not honyaki, but tempered very hard and the tip sheared clean off under normal use (no lateral or torsional force). The break looked like a piece of glass (no deformation, just a clean snap) so the knife was likely improperly heat treated. However, as the the other attributes it did see fairly reactive and pretty "stinky" with a strong sulfur odor.
White #3 is less pure that either 1 or 2.
As I understand it, White #1 is most pure and has the highest carbon content, but it is difficult to work with so few makers use it. It is also not known for having the best edge retention (although I have been impressed with mine). White #2 is less pure, but has some alloys that make it easier to work with and supposedly add some toughness and edge retention.
White #3 is the least pure and has a higher allowed amount of some things like sulfur which don't really add anything positive to the mix. It's the cheapest of the 3 and also not used in many high-end knives.

Again, so much depends on the skill of the maker and what characteristics they choose to bring out of the steel, but in general, white steels with get very sharp, very easily, but will also be the most "fragile" and be the least wear resistant.

JBroida
08-08-2012, 01:07 AM
not exactly... its not less pure at all... just lower carbon. Yellow steel is less pure, but within white steel, they are all the same. Just the carbon varies.

Timthebeaver
08-08-2012, 01:21 AM
I think the only difference is the carbon content. White #1 is the highest carbon content, then #2, then #3. max. P and S levels are the same. Perhaps you are thinking of yellow steel? which has a couple of thousands of a percent more phosphorus and sulfur? There is a graph of the composition of the yasugi steels out there somewhere.

cclin
08-08-2012, 01:49 AM
not exactly... its not less pure at all... just lower carbon. Yellow steel is less pure, but within white steel, they are all the same. Just the carbon varies.

one of my friend told me the higher carbon means better cutter! so, Shiro-ko #3 cuting perfornance not as good as wihite#1,#2?? but, it's less brittle than white#1/#2?

JBroida
08-08-2012, 01:52 AM
cutting performance has nothing to do with it. Higher carbon equals higher hardenability (and usually does). Higher hardness equals better ability to hold acute angles and better edge retention. However, the cost of this is that the higher hardness also equals more brittle.

James
08-08-2012, 01:57 AM
As I understand it, White #1 is most pure and has the highest carbon content, but it is difficult to work with so few makers use it. It is also not known for having the best edge retention (although I have been impressed with mine).


I was always under the impression that white #1 had the best edge retention and takes the best edge, but is the most brittle of the 3. So perhaps white #1 has the best edge retention, but can easily dull due to chipping? I always thought of white #1 as the AS of the white steels.

cclin
08-08-2012, 02:05 AM
I was always under the impression that white #1 had the best edge retention and takes the best edge, but is the most brittle of the 3. So perhaps white #1 has the best edge retention, but can easily dull due to chipping? I always thought of white #1 as the AS of the white steels.

I think AS not taking quite as keen of an edge as white#1

JBroida
08-08-2012, 02:23 AM
so, steels.... here's a quick rundown...

Hitachi makes a number of carbon steels. Here are the common ones found in knives.

SK Steels (sk5, sk4, sk3)- the least expensive of the carbon steels and the lowest carbon content (#5 has the least carbon, #3 the most). This steel has higher amounts of phosphorus and sulfur than the other steels i'm about to mention. This steel tends to be tough (due to the lower carbon content and thus lower hardness). It also tends to be more reactive.

Yellow Steel (yellow 3, yellow 2)- This steel is more pure (less phosphorus and sulfur than the SK Steels). It also has higher carbon content (#3 has less carbon than #2 in this case as well). This steel is commonly found in saws and wood working tools. It is also sometimes found in knives.

White Steel (White 3, white 2, white #1)- This steel is even more pure than yellow steel (which is relatively pure). Once again, the lower the number, the higher the carbon content, so white #1 has the most carbon and white #3 has the least. The higher carbon (and hardness) leads to white #1 having the best edge retention of the white steels and also the best ability to hold an acute angle. White #3 has the best toughness.

Blue Steel (Blue #2 and Blue #1... i'll talk about blue super later)- Blue steel is white steel with chromium and tungsten added to it. Blue #2 has the same amount of carbon as white #2 but has the added elements. Same for blue #1 and white #1. The added elements lead to better corrosion resistance and edge retention (as well as deeper hardening). This also comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen and not taking quite as keen of an edge. Blue steel also tends to be more brittle (ever so slight).

Blue Super- Blue super is blue #1 with even more carbon, chromium, and tungsten added to it. Its the best of the hitachi carbon steels with regard to edge retention and ability to hold an acute angle (due to the higher carbon/hardness and added elements). This comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen, not getting quite as sharp, and being the most brittle of the bunch.

So, in conclusion, the white steels take the best edge (#1 holding the most acute angle and #3 being the toughest), while the blue steels hold the best edge (Blue super being the best at this while blue #2 and #1 have better toughness).

Sarge
08-08-2012, 02:38 AM
Jon wonderful explanation as usual. Makes me want to get my hands on a white #3 knife

JBroida
08-08-2012, 02:41 AM
there are times when white #3 is awesome and times when it sucks ;) depends on the knife/maker/construction type/heat treatment

Sarge
08-08-2012, 02:45 AM
Soooo..... It is like nearly every other steel :tease:

JBroida
08-08-2012, 02:45 AM
yup

lowercasebill
08-08-2012, 10:13 AM
so, steels.... here's a quick rundown...

Hitachi makes a number of carbon steels. Here are the common ones found in knives.

SK Steels (sk5, sk4, sk3)- the least expensive of the carbon steels and the lowest carbon content (#5 has the least carbon, #3 the most). This steel has higher amounts of phosphorus and sulfur than the other steels i'm about to mention. This steel tends to be tough (due to the lower carbon content and thus lower hardness). It also tends to be more reactive.

Yellow Steel (yellow 3, yellow 2)- This steel is more pure (less phosphorus and sulfur than the SK Steels). It also has higher carbon content (#3 has less carbon than #2 in this case as well). This steel is commonly found in saws and wood working tools. It is also sometimes found in knives.

White Steel (White 3, white 2, white #1)- This steel is even more pure than yellow steel (which is relatively pure). Once again, the lower the number, the higher the carbon content, so white #1 has the most carbon and white #3 has the least. The higher carbon (and hardness) leads to white #1 having the best edge retention of the white steels and also the best ability to hold an acute angle. White #3 has the best toughness.

Blue Steel (Blue #2 and Blue #1... i'll talk about blue super later)- Blue steel is white steel with chromium and tungsten added to it. Blue #2 has the same amount of carbon as white #2 but has the added elements. Same for blue #1 and white #1. The added elements lead to better corrosion resistance and edge retention (as well as deeper hardening). This also comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen and not taking quite as keen of an edge. Blue steel also tends to be more brittle (ever so slight).

Blue Super- Blue super is blue #1 with even more carbon, chromium, and tungsten added to it. Its the best of the hitachi carbon steels with regard to edge retention and ability to hold an acute angle (due to the higher carbon/hardness and added elements). This comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen, not getting quite as sharp, and being the most brittle of the bunch.

So, in conclusion, the white steels take the best edge (#1 holding the most acute angle and #3 being the toughest), while the blue steels hold the best edge (Blue super being the best at this while blue #2 and #1 have better toughness).

Jon, could you paste this explaination on your website so that those of us with aging memories can find it again .
thanks
bill

mikemac
08-08-2012, 10:15 AM
....So, in conclusion, the white steels take the best edge (#1 holding the most acute angle and #3 being the toughest), while the blue steels hold the best edge (Blue super being the best at this while blue #2 and #1 have better toughness).

A few years ago, I believe it was "C-Dawg" who made a personal comparison / observation on the white vs. blue issue and came to the same conclusion as Jon has stated, but added that as a chef, using the knives, and after very modest kitchen use, both blades had reached a similiar level of sharpness and edge retentionfrom that point was also similair

Eamon Burke
08-08-2012, 10:59 AM
Jon, you should copypasta that post into the the Kitchen Knife Knowledge subforum. It would be a great reference.

JBroida
08-08-2012, 12:43 PM
i just put it on my blog for future reference
http://blog.japaneseknifeimports.com/2012/08/a-quick-summary-of-hitachi-carbon.html

cclin
08-08-2012, 01:25 PM
so, steels.... here's a quick rundown...

Hitachi makes a number of carbon steels. Here are the common ones found in knives.

SK Steels (sk5, sk4, sk3)- the least expensive of the carbon steels and the lowest carbon content (#5 has the least carbon, #3 the most). This steel has higher amounts of phosphorus and sulfur than the other steels i'm about to mention. This steel tends to be tough (due to the lower carbon content and thus lower hardness). It also tends to be more reactive.

Yellow Steel (yellow 3, yellow 2)- This steel is more pure (less phosphorus and sulfur than the SK Steels). It also has higher carbon content (#3 has less carbon than #2 in this case as well). This steel is commonly found in saws and wood working tools. It is also sometimes found in knives.

White Steel (White 3, white 2, white #1)- This steel is even more pure than yellow steel (which is relatively pure). Once again, the lower the number, the higher the carbon content, so white #1 has the most carbon and white #3 has the least. The higher carbon (and hardness) leads to white #1 having the best edge retention of the white steels and also the best ability to hold an acute angle. White #3 has the best toughness.

Blue Steel (Blue #2 and Blue #1... i'll talk about blue super later)- Blue steel is white steel with chromium and tungsten added to it. Blue #2 has the same amount of carbon as white #2 but has the added elements. Same for blue #1 and white #1. The added elements lead to better corrosion resistance and edge retention (as well as deeper hardening). This also comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen and not taking quite as keen of an edge. Blue steel also tends to be more brittle (ever so slight).

Blue Super- Blue super is blue #1 with even more carbon, chromium, and tungsten added to it. Its the best of the hitachi carbon steels with regard to edge retention and ability to hold an acute angle (due to the higher carbon/hardness and added elements). This comes at the cost of being more difficult to sharpen, not getting quite as sharp, and being the most brittle of the bunch.

So, in conclusion, the white steels take the best edge (#1 holding the most acute angle and #3 being the toughest), while the blue steels hold the best edge (Blue super being the best at this while blue #2 and #1 have better toughness).

thanks for detail explanation! very appreciate!:goodpost:

Keith Neal
08-08-2012, 04:37 PM
Jon:

Great info. Thanks.

Can you tell us how O-1 compares to the Hitachi steels?

Thanks

Keith

JBroida
08-08-2012, 05:05 PM
i've tried o1 all over the board... overall, o1 tends to be tougher and more wear resistant than white steels, more simliar to blue steels. It doesnt take quite as good of an edge (but its all pretty close here anyways). I've found it to be more chip resistant than most blue steels, but not quite as nice for edge retention or holding as acute of an angle. However, it really depends on the HT.

mpukas
08-08-2012, 06:28 PM
Jon - what is it about white #1 that gives it the ability to get sharper - higher carbon therefore harder HT?

Take a white #2 knife and a white #1 knife, assuming all major things about the knives being equal, and put them through the exact same sharpening progression, would #1 be sharper than #2?

ATM I'm thinking white #1 has the ability to get sharper, but it won't get there on its own...



Also, does anyone know what does Murray Carter mean when Murray says that white steel has more inherent potential than other steels because it's the purest; "potential" is a made-up concept that doesn't mean anything it's own. My guess is that if he chooses to focus on one particular steel, as other master smiths have, then he will be able to get "more" out of the steel than others "normally" could. Such as Devin getting amazing resutls w/ AEB-L.

JBroida
08-08-2012, 10:36 PM
Its not sharper in terms of actual edge sharpness, but rather in the steel's ability to hold an acute angle.

ajhuff
08-09-2012, 09:26 AM
While White #1 steel has more carbon a
I am not positive that all knives made of White#1 necessarily have more carbon. I cannot find my referenc but I think my information came directly from Hitachi. The #1 steels have higher carbon levels to compensate for the carbon lost during forging. Meaning that chemistry was developed specifically for forgings.

-AJ

SameGuy
08-09-2012, 10:14 AM
And what about ginsanko (silver-3 steel)? My new yanagiba is ginsan.

mpukas
08-09-2012, 11:50 AM
Its not sharper in terms of actual edge sharpness, but rather in the steel's ability to hold an acute angle.

That's what I was thinking. Thanks!

JBroida
08-09-2012, 03:44 PM
And what about ginsanko (silver-3 steel)? My new yanagiba is ginsan.

ginsanko is more difficult to compare to. There isnt a group of stainless steels in the same way the white and blue steels are related.

Ginsanko can also vary widely with different heat treatments. Generally, it tends to sharpen pretty easily, but less so than carbon, be a bit softer than carbon, a bit more difficult to deburr, takes a very agressive/toothy edge, and has decent edge retention (not great, but not bad)

SameGuy
08-09-2012, 04:20 PM
Thanks Jon. You had a look at the Suisin ginsan yanagi... What did you think of it?

JBroida
08-09-2012, 04:39 PM
i've used them many times... they are a bit more difficult to sharpen than carbon (but easier than the inox honyaki). The edge retention is less than inox honyaki, and closer to white #2. However, it has longer edge retention when acidic foods are involved. The ginsanko in suisin single bevel knives tends to take a very aggressive edge with good bite. Burr removal can be tough.