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Cutty Sharp
08-20-2012, 03:51 PM
I take it that only a few members here know more than a few Japanese words - sushi, sashimi, tsunami and the inevitable knife stuff like nakiri, kasumi, sujihiki etc. In fact you probably know more knife words than other words in Japanese! Anyway, despite spending over 2 years in Japan I'm not really that different as I used English at home and work, and it was also more than 10 years ago. I know a bit of Nihon-go, but would like to learn a bit more - especially knife-related these days - and so was wondering if anyone could contribute to a thread on how to decipher a bit of what those etchings on our knives say? (Or stones...? and so on.) Maybe this kind of stuff hasn't been posted much before and could be useful.
:sumo:

First of all, I can contribute this: I'm not sure how many people are actually aware that Japanese traditionally uses 3 different scripts, of which kanji is just one. Sometimes people post things like, 'I can't read kanji.' However, I'm not completely sure if this means that they can read the 2 other main scripts, hiragana and katakana, or not. Probably not, I'd guess.

They're not that tough to tell apart, with a little practice, and they have different roles. Kanji is the most complex-looking one, Chinese characters that began to be used in Japan a couple thousand years ago, for example: 漢字 (kanji), 日本 (Japan), 東京 (Tokyo), 堺市 (Sakai), 重房 (Shigefusa). They're terribly complex and can mean different things, with many/most characters having more than 1 pronunciation, I believe. I only know a few of these - and for good reason as it's an absolute mess. Unfortunately, these are what we usually find on knives, they give the maker's name, and so I try to recognise them a bit.

Hiragana is the best-looking script, I think. It's less complex than kanji and is kind of loopy: ひらがな (hiragana), おさか (Osaka), はもの (hamono). It's generally used phonetically, which makes it way easier to learn, with each character usually representing one Japanese 'sound', such as ひ (hi) ら (ra) が (ga) な (na). Hiragana's used to represent hard kanji and for grammar, etc. You don't really see it on knives, though.

Then there's katakana, the simplest-looking script; straighter lines than hiragana. It's basically always phonetic and matches the Japanese sounds as hiragana usually does too: ナイフ (knife or 'na-i-fu'), キッチェン (kitchen or 'kii-chi-n'). This is the script I learned first as most words recently imported into the Japanese language are written in katakana. Very helpful when doing grocery shopping and reading labels, for example, even if the Japan-ised version of a word is a bit different. (Canned tuna, I remember, isn't called 'tuna' in Japanese but シーチキン or 'shiichikin' - 'sea chicken' - which I always thought was hilarious.)
:chicksign:

(Incidentally, romanji - our roman alphabet - is used quite a lot in Japan. Indo-Arabic numerals - 1,2,3... - are probably more common than their kanji equivalents.)


Here's some useful kanji as an example: 白 is white and 青 is blue, while 一 is 1 and 二 is 2, and so if you see 白 and 二 you can pretty much be sure a knife is shirogami #2. With katakana you might see スウェーデン which is pronounced as 'sue-de-n' and so you know you've got Swedish steel. Or you might see a kanji/katakana combo like 青紙スーパー 鋼 which contains the 'blue' kanji and also the katakana スーパー or 'suu-paa', and so you know you're got Aogami Super steel.

Hope this is interesting/useful. Please post if you have something to add.

chinacats
08-20-2012, 08:40 PM
Very informative, thanks.

Cutty Sharp
08-26-2012, 11:10 AM
Well, not the most overwhelming response to this thread so far. Must mean that, a) people aren't really into learning a bit of Japanese, or b) people don't know enough to contribute, or c) maybe both! :dontknow: However, I like it and will still try to contribute now and then when I find something that could be useful.

Found this, which just came up on a recent 'ID this knife'-type thread:

作 = make/made and could help to ID the maker's name; thus, if I take the most common surname in Japan - Satou or 佐藤 apparently - and he's a knifemaker, you could end up with 佐藤作 on a blade, for example.

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/047/206/106/106206047_742.jpg

登録 = can mean registered/certified; it was pictured on the blade in this thread http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/8054-An-unexpected-gift-ID-help-please?p=137168&highlight=#post137168

I'm also wondering if anyone can spot it on the 'reg'd in Sakai' stickers on Sakai knives? I also see it on this cert http://http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/047/206/106/106206047_742.jpg

Cutty Sharp
09-23-2012, 06:48 PM
登録重房 - authentic or 'registered' Shigefusa; probably their older style

10188

skewed
09-23-2012, 08:39 PM
I totally forgot to post a thank you! I appreciate your post. Keep it up.

Zwiefel
09-23-2012, 09:36 PM
Just read this....nice write-up!

I knew about the 3 different character sets...and aside from knife/food terms know--well, USED to know--a lot of judo/aikido terms :)

That's about it for me though.

andur
09-25-2012, 02:44 AM
Interesting thread! I've only got one funny story to contribute. I don't have the pictures with me but I did take some macro shots of my knives and then posted them to a Japanese professor (from japan) in my University. I just wanted to ask what the writings say on my Tanaka and Shimatani knives. And also the knife boxes and such.

The reply I got was pretty short and the japanese teacher said "Oh sorry, it seems the knives carry the makers names which I cannot read. If you have been shown such a name (with such a writing style) and you have memorized it, then you can read it. But if it's a name you haven't seen before then you can't even guess." So I didn't get a reply what names might be on the knives. The professor did say that one of the knives carried the steel mark, ("This is interesting, something like blue paper number two, does that make any sense?" she said:lol2:), the city in which it was made and then the steel manufacturer also.

So what I learned was that "hey I speak japanese!" won't help much if the writings on our knives carry old family pictograms or rare names etc. Must be a complex language to write in!

DeepCSweede
09-25-2012, 09:03 AM
This is very interesting - hopefully some more people can contribute - I have nothing to share only to learn.

Xuster
09-25-2012, 09:16 AM
hmmm I don't know much about japanese but Kanji is basically traditional Chinese and the meanings will be the same. It's true that each individual character has multiple definitions, but taken in context, there's only so many things a character can mean. So if you were really motivated, you could get your self a traditional Chinese-english dictionary and figure these out. Looking up Chinese characters via strokes is actually fairly easy despite how complicated some of these characters look.

Montrachet
01-27-2013, 12:37 PM
Thank you Sir for these helpfull informations. Hope to read and learn more. Very interesting for me.

Madmox
02-20-2013, 02:51 AM
I could use a little help in this respect too in this regard. I have been looking at this yanagi and deba and the seller claims they are kikuichi but neither have the seal so i would love to know if anyone can identify who they are really made by. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Colin
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/Madmox/DebaKanji_zps86e70d5c.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/Madmox/Deba_zpsacc40c54.jpeg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/Madmox/YanagiKanji_zpsa364f482.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/Madmox/Yanagi_zpsa3be928e.jpeg

cclin
02-20-2013, 05:52 AM
yanagi is Shigefusa. don't understand third kanji on deba; however, I'm 100% sure isn't kikuichi

kalaeb
02-20-2013, 12:15 PM
This thread reminds me, I have not heard from Cutty in awhile, I miss giving him a hard time about his ho.....handles

Madmox
02-20-2013, 01:21 PM
much appreciated! the battle is half won! I knew they weren't kikuishi because they didn't have the seal but the question is are they still worth what they are asking!

Thanks,
Colin

Zwiefel
02-20-2013, 03:45 PM
For some reason that made me imagine Cutty doing a spoof of this 80's classic:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWtPiS4rPa4

Slypig5000
02-26-2013, 10:17 PM
Thanks for the write up, I thought this was very interesting, I knew nothing about kanji before reading this. Now I know just enough to be dangerous.

Madmox
03-07-2013, 01:15 AM
So the Shig and the deba are both from Kiya and thats what the kanji on both the fronts of the blades say. And the Kanji below the registration mark on the deba is "gold" Then "Wood".

Sambar Stag
12-05-2013, 08:39 PM
Thanks so much for this post! It has been very helpful to me. I have an inherited yo - gyoto that was used by my late stepmother for as long as I remember that has been called a very special knife by all that have used it. With the help of your research I have identified "Japan", "Registered/Authorized", and "Sweden". A yanagi with saya has the same Japan, registered/authorized, but also "blue" with no obvious number character after it. They have more characters that that, of course, but this is a start.

ChuckTheButcher
12-05-2013, 09:40 PM
I have nothing to add but thank you for this. It is very informative. Maybe I won't have to skype my cousins Japanese wife every other day if I learn a little more.

Asteger
12-06-2013, 07:20 AM
Very nice explanation! ;)

Mateyhv
02-25-2014, 06:41 AM
Nice explanation, kanji always looks cool. Thinking if some egyptian hyerogliphs would be equally cool :tease: So we would have french kitchen knives made from swedish steel in japanese blacksmiths with some egyptian hyeros and distributed through US to anywhere in the world. Globalization in its purest form. :lol2:

By the way, can someone read that beautiful kanji? From the above explanation I think the last picture reads 青一 or "blue 1". Thanks

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n527/bishamon1/IMG_3470.jpg
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n527/bishamon1/IMG_3475.jpg
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n527/bishamon1/IMG_3490.jpg
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n527/bishamon1/IMG_3488.jpg

cclin
02-25-2014, 08:02 AM
"幸之祐"=Konosuke, yes,"青一"=blue 1

fecfitz
05-01-2014, 03:25 PM
http://i57.tinypic.com/mma3xy.jpg

Can anybody tell me whats written on this knife? I dontīt know the brand

osakajoe
07-22-2014, 11:51 PM
合羽橋 - Kappa bashi
Just an area in Tokyo I believe similar to doguyasuji in osaka.

Other part might just be the shops name
かま.... Ka ma
Can't read the last hiragana maybe に
ni?

JBroida
07-23-2014, 02:53 AM
yeah... its kamata

osakajoe
07-23-2014, 06:02 AM
yeah... its kamata

Thanks!

That's a very stylish way of writing た

JMJones
07-29-2014, 07:34 PM
I picked this 240mm ish yanagi recently. Anyone have any idea of the kanji?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/pike3e/kanji1.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/pike3e/media/kanji1.jpg.html)

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/pike3e/kanji2.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/pike3e/media/kanji2.jpg.html)

Any insight will be appreciated.

Thanks

John

osakajoe
08-01-2014, 08:05 PM
If possible a more close up shot so I can read the kanji clearly.

JMJones
08-02-2014, 11:10 AM
first set of characters
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/pike3e/77dcb00e-5783-464a-a565-548ea15ae714.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/pike3e/media/77dcb00e-5783-464a-a565-548ea15ae714.jpg.html)



Second set of characters


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/pike3e/1a9a0bcc-87d2-42fc-a3e8-55a65c5a1726.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/pike3e/media/1a9a0bcc-87d2-42fc-a3e8-55a65c5a1726.jpg.html)

osakajoe
08-07-2014, 01:32 AM
A bit tough but I think this I the closest I can get.

正宗二十四代?
Masamune 24th generation

_?_広作
___hiro saku
(note 広 is the way they right hiro today. The kanji on the knife is the old version)
Saku means made by or maker

Had to ask my colleague on this one and even with her knowledge if working at the knife museum she couldn't tell me that one kanji.

mill
08-09-2014, 04:02 PM
A bit tough but I think this I the closest I can get.

正宗二十四代?
Masamune 24th generation

_?_広作
___hiro saku
(note 広 is the way they right hiro today. The kanji on the knife is the old version)
Saku means made by or maker

Had to ask my colleague on this one and even with her knowledge if working at the knife museum she couldn't tell me that one kanji.

http://www.sword-masamune.com/en/info.html

DaninMD
09-29-2014, 01:59 PM
is anyone able to determine this one? from a non-descript ebay purchase. maybe a Tojiro? looks similar to some postings i have seen that were Tojiro
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr117/danmoyer1979/0f448cb5-83a2-439e-813f-c2be00c725e1_zps811bf3c7.jpg

osakajoe
09-30-2014, 10:22 PM
I posted in your other thread.

The reason why you recognize the last kanji, saku - 作, is because it just means production or manufactured. Most knife brands put that at the end of their names. Kind of like saying osaka joe manufacturing.

Anyways to get on to the other kanji. It can be read one of two ways.
長俊作 Nagatoshi-saku or Choshun-saku.
More likely Nagatoshi as the other one is worded strangely.