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View Full Version : Good steel and BBQ- more fustration



Jim
03-01-2011, 01:58 PM
As an avid BBQ-ist, I have been having an ongoing problem with "the crust" and my good knives.
I often blow the edge on the first few cuts. I have done some work around, like pre cut the crust with a serrated knife/German knife, remove bottom crust and slice upside down & ect.
On the bench I have worked with Dave on a number of schemes to address this, leaving the knife toothy (not acceptable as the slices are no good ) varying the edge angle, meticulously removing the burr.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks Gents.

Jay
03-01-2011, 02:15 PM
Sounds like a good excuse to buy a western deba or a honesuki, two knives that love a challenge.

Jim
03-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Can you even slice a packer brisket with a honesuki? I use the 300 Hiro now.

Jay
03-01-2011, 02:49 PM
Yeah, a honesuki is useless for slicing, but it will take anything you don't want out of your way in a hurry. Having cut through a tough crust and still glide through tender meat is quite a dilemma.

jaybett
03-01-2011, 06:49 PM
A few years ago, Andy mentioned in a conversation that one of the advantages he saw to a chopping cleaver was that it had a stronger, tougher edge, then a slicing cleaver. Best guess, was that the extra metal behind the edge provided a good foundation.

At our family gatherings, typically chicken, pork, and steak, are grilled. Often the meat is sliced just minutes before serving. I bought a Hattori suji, for these occasions. The first time I used it, I came away with impression that it was on the fragile side. I wanted a knife that I could use without worrying about it, or having to baby.

Remembering the chopping cleaver, I wanted a heavier knife then a suji. Blue steel is known for being tough. I also didn't want to spend a lot of money on a knife, which was going to be abused. I went with a Moritaka double beveled Kiritsuke. I liked the idea of an aggressive tip. At a family party, I sliced 50 pounds of grilled chicken, boneless breasts and thighs, in less then an hour. Maybe not restaurant times, but I'm happy with it, and the knife.

If I had to do it over again, I'd find the Zakuri line from JKI, to be real tempting, especially that double edge yanigiba. I'd bought the Moritaka before Jon officially opened his business.

It would probably be overkill, but the steel on my Mizuno cleaver really has been impressing me with its toughness. I could see myself justifying a 270 Mizuno gyuto as a barbecue knife.

Jay

UnConundrum
03-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Jim, I use my Phil Wilson for the briskets. Does a fabulous job trimming and decent with the bark. Sometimes it needs just a little help getting started, but the damn thing could go a whole competition season without needing a sharpening, right Dave ?

rancho
03-01-2011, 07:42 PM
what's a brisket and what's a 'crust'? i think we have very different methods of bbqing in australia!

la2tokyo
03-01-2011, 07:47 PM
I was thinking about this the other day when I was slicing a piece of beef. It had a really thick crust on it and it was covered in cracked pepper, so that made it even worse. The thin gyuto I had was not sounding very confident as it went through the crust. A honesuki, or even better a garasuki would have been good, but the shape is pretty inconvenient for slicing if you're going to use it all the time. I do have another Masamoto gyuto that someone left in my kitchen a few years ago that is really thick. I'm sure they have another name for it besides gyuto, but it's over 1/8" thick at the top (It's a 300mm knife). I have a fairly obtuse bevel angle on that knife but it still cuts well. If I were going to cut crusty meat all day that's probably what I would invest in.

UnConundrum
03-01-2011, 07:50 PM
Brisket is a cut of beef that is usually tough and a bit of a challenge to be both tender and moist after cooking. It's often a requirement in BBQ competitions.

http://0.tqn.com/d/culinaryarts/1/5/_/H/-/-/brisket.jpg

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9196.0;attach=1568 2;image

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brisketselect_photos/brisketselect1.jpg

rancho
03-01-2011, 07:56 PM
ah cheers. we have so many good cattle running around here that i guess we can be choosy. i almost exclusively cook rib on the bone ;)

Jim
03-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Pre crust-
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=23710


Post crust-
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=23721


Sliced-
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=19148

And before anyone askes- here are the ribs

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=23720

Dave Martell
03-01-2011, 08:22 PM
Jim, I use my Phil Wilson for the briskets. Does a fabulous job trimming and decent with the bark. Sometimes it needs just a little help getting started, but the damn thing could go a whole competition season without needing a sharpening, right Dave ?


Yeah it does ago a long time. I actually didn't realize that you used it on cooked meat too. What's the steel - S30V?

Dave Martell
03-01-2011, 08:24 PM
Jim, the sliced picture just my my stomach growl and I just finished eating dinner.

rancho
03-01-2011, 08:37 PM
do you guys marinade your roasts? i see the crust your referring to and that looks very thick (and overcooked :P)! i guess we just do our beef differently here, i have mine rare so if doing a roast i'll just seal it on a hot plate then bbq it till it's only just cooked through. no tough crust and beautiful, juicy flesh. at most there'll be some salt/pepper/mustard/herbs either stuffed or rubbed outside.

UnConundrum
03-01-2011, 08:38 PM
Dave, that's not rare meat.... that's a smoke ring ;)

PierreRodrigue
03-01-2011, 08:39 PM
Jim, you wouldn't be looking to adopt a large Canadian knife maker with a big appetite would you...please... ;)

Jim
03-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Jim, you wouldn't be looking to adopt a large Canadian knife maker with a big appetite would you...please... ;)

I am positive we can work something out!

PierreRodrigue
03-01-2011, 08:43 PM
Sweet! :D Man, I gotta give you props, that brisket looks fantastic! I got a rib rub recipe from you a while back, it has been my goto since I got it.

sw2geeks
03-01-2011, 08:45 PM
Got a Treager last year and have been doing lots of Texas BBQ. My Chinese cleaver works great.

Jim
03-01-2011, 08:45 PM
do you guys marinade your roasts? i see the crust your referring to and that looks very thick (and overcooked :P)! i guess we just do our beef differently here, i have mine rare so if doing a roast i'll just seal it on a hot plate then bbq it till it's only just cooked through. no tough crust and beautiful, juicy flesh. at most there'll be some salt/pepper/mustard/herbs either stuffed or rubbed outside.

BBQ is a technique that takes large and tough chunks of meat and cooks them at low temperatures for many hours,utilizing wood smoke as well as heat. The internal temps of a brisket when done are 195-205 which leaves it butter tender.

Do not confuse grilling with traditional BBQ

Jim
03-01-2011, 08:46 PM
Sweet! :D Man, I gotta give you props, that brisket looks fantastic! I got a rib rub recipe from you a while back, it has been my goto since I got it.

Wonderful to hear! I love BBQ and sharing rubs and sauces is almost as much fun as eating it.

rancho
03-01-2011, 08:50 PM
BBQ is a technique that takes large and tough chunks of meat and cooks them at low temperatures for many hours,utilizing wood smoke as well as heat. The internal temps of a brisket when done are 195-205 which leaves it butter tender.

Do not confuse grilling with traditional BBQ

ah, i see. never met anyone who smokes. we just bake (roasts) or grill (steaks) with our bbqs :)

chazmtb
03-01-2011, 08:54 PM
I was going to post my brisket when I got home. But Jim posted his pictures, and now I feel a little inferior.:o

Dave Martell
03-01-2011, 08:56 PM
Dave, that's not rare meat.... that's a smoke ring ;)


Ha Ha Ha

El Pescador
03-01-2011, 09:03 PM
Ever thought of sharpening with just a 500 grit stone? A suji w/ micro serrations would probably work great!
Pesky

phasedweasel
03-01-2011, 09:06 PM
My god do I want to eat that.

monty
03-01-2011, 10:24 PM
When I slice my brisket I flip the packer over so that the fat side is up. I trim the fat from the point then and slice from that side. This also helps me make sure I'm cutting against the grain. Fat off = visible grain. I usually have enough cutting momentum by the time I hit the bark that there is no problem slicing through. Because I have to deal with presentation I feel that slicing on the bottom side help me avoid any problems. Then I cut what's left of the point, once I have enough slices, into burn ends.
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/monty3777/DSC01412.jpg

Pork shoulder:
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/monty3777/DSC01242.jpg

Ribs (mine aren't quite as dark as yours):
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/monty3777/DSC01333.jpg

sudsy9977
03-02-2011, 12:11 AM
i got a good idea jim....don't make it so crusty!.....problem solved....just boil or stem that brisket!.....ryan

Jim
03-02-2011, 12:40 AM
i got a good idea jim....don't make it so crusty!.....problem solved....just boil or stem that brisket!.....ryan

Banished..... to the room with boiled ribs with you!

Dave Martell
03-02-2011, 12:43 AM
Banished..... to the room with boiled ribs with you!

Can we ban him?

Jim
03-02-2011, 12:56 AM
Can we ban him?

Actually after seeing Stephan's photo of you two, I am reluctant to get him angry.

sudsy9977
03-02-2011, 01:00 AM
what's wrong with boiling ribs??????????!!!!!!....ryan

p.s.-yeah it's best not to get me angry

Audi's or knives
03-02-2011, 05:23 PM
Jim, Monty bbq looks great, maked me so hungry with those pics. I use a Forschner slicer for my bbq (brisket, pork roast, etc) it works but I'd like something better.

SpikeC
03-02-2011, 06:06 PM
I use a Big Green Egg™ which gives you the options of either grilling at up to 700+ searing down to 180 low and slow. With mesquite lump charcoal I have done butt cooks of 13 hours on a single load of fuel.

UnConundrum
03-02-2011, 06:27 PM
I'm another egger, and I've been over 1K and gone over 20 hours....

SpikeC
03-02-2011, 07:10 PM
Holey moley!! How did you measure the temp??

Dave Martell
03-02-2011, 07:26 PM
Please don't get Warren going on this. :P

UnConundrum
03-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Suffice it to say, I have all the necessary equipment ;). I was trexing some steaks.

sw2geeks
03-02-2011, 10:54 PM
I look at the egg, but went with the treager for ease of use. I can go a day with the hopper full on the smoke setting without touching a thing.

SpikeC
03-02-2011, 11:24 PM
I wonder if the Egg could be used to heat treat a blade.............................

StephanFowler
03-03-2011, 10:01 AM
I wonder if the Egg could be used to heat treat a blade.............................

it would need to hit 1450-1525 and hold if VERY reliably for the better part of 30 minutes (10 deg +/- makes a huge difference)
solid fuel heat sources have a very difficult time getting above 1200 without a forced air source.

it could be done but it wouldn't necessarily be simple.

SpikeC
03-03-2011, 11:48 PM
I have a burn out oven that I will be using, I think!

steeley
03-04-2011, 02:32 AM
Blades and Brisket my new restaurant.
would you like a side order of 01 steel and fries

apicius9
03-04-2011, 06:59 AM
Suffice it to say, I have all the necessary equipment ;). I was trexing some steaks.

I had to laugh at this one. Warren, you have ALL the equipment, necessary or not ;) I would love to have an egg, but I just don't have a good - or legal - place to set one up around my apartment. But still, greaat info and pictures in this thread.

Stefan

UnConundrum
03-04-2011, 08:28 AM
Stefan, can't you just find a semi-active volcano ?

thistle
03-05-2011, 05:59 PM
I wanted to ask Warren about this, but didn't want to sound like a nerd-do you use a guru or stoker w/ your egg? Anyone else (Monty, I bet you use one) want to chime in on this? I have had the pleasure of enjoying Warren's food at one of Dave's classes (& envying all his pro equipment), I am just a bbq beginner, don't even have a thermapen yet, but I love hearing about all the gadgets & tools...

UnConundrum
03-05-2011, 08:17 PM
Yes, I have a few Gurus and a Stoker. They have their individual strengths. I was trying to convince Fred (BBQ Guru) to add better networking to the Gurus, but I don't think that's going to happen. When I use the stoker, I can monitor the temp from a motel room and even have an alarm go off.