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Mucho Bocho
09-04-2012, 11:44 AM
Did anyone else hear the interview with the Cut Brooklyn guy this weekend? I didn't catch the beginning the heard the radio mention heat treatment and that piqued my interest. he went on and on about all the things we discuss around here. Steel, blade profile, grind, heat treatment, handles..... Said that he sells his knives with a wonky handles for over $600. i almost spit my coffee out at that point. He didn't come across as omniscient or omnipotent but did say that he has a waiting list for his kitchen knives. I think he has three guyto profiles and one petty.

Just curious if anyone else hear the episode. Thoughts?

Larrin
09-04-2012, 01:03 PM
http://thestory.org/archive/The_Story_9312.mp3/view

Larrin
09-04-2012, 01:12 PM
This makes me wonder if a knife-centric podcast could work.

Eamon Burke
09-04-2012, 01:17 PM
How on EARTH is this dude getting all the press?

I mean, I just never hear about anyone but him and Bob Kramer getting interviewed for mainstream stuff like this. Makes me :scratchhead:

Looking forward to listening to it!

jayhay
09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
I think it's the name Cut Brooklyn. It's young, hip, fresh and has Brooklyn in it. I think it's a grass roots/cool factor, factor. If I had some skills and could make knives, and called the company Detroit Cutlery, I think it would garner me some attention by name alone. Call it the McClure's Pickles effect. Detroit and Brooklyn are hot topics, especially if it's old school artisan stuff. News outlets need interesting and fresh content, and a interesting brand/name/image serves it up more easily. Just a thought.

I gotta listen to the interview now lol.

Mucho Bocho
09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Eamon, Agreed. His knives look like craft as opposed to professional kitchen tools. the handles are weird and he uses O1 steel. You would know better than I if its a good steel for knives or not, but i haven't heard much about it.

Eamon Burke
09-04-2012, 02:09 PM
O1 is a fine tool steel. His knives are not bad. Lots of people dig the handles, I'd say it's probably worth $600, especially if you are into supporting the Handmade-in-Brooklyn thing.

But I mean, why has nobody interviewed Michael Rader(whose work impresses every single person I've ever shown it to) for the past 2 years while the same two guys get several magazines, countless blogs, web-video promos, a few tv shows, radio interviews, etc etc? KnowwhatImean? Is there some hidden force at work here?

I don't think anything negative about it, I just think it's odd how life works. Stuff just happens to people, seemingly at random. I would really like for the world to make sense, but the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked, as a wise man said.

JohnnyChance
09-04-2012, 02:25 PM
This makes me wonder if a knife-centric podcast could work.

It could. Maybe only monthly or so, but it would work.

kalaeb
09-04-2012, 02:26 PM
It seems as if there has been a strong effort on the revitalization of the Brooklyn scene. There has been a lot of money put into the area, especally the past two years. Anything Brooklyn is going to be getting lots of press just as a by product of the general hype especially had made local stuff. Like Eamon, nothing against his product, but he is certainly in the right place at the right time.

Larrin
09-04-2012, 02:48 PM
It could. Maybe only monthly or so, but it would work.
I agree, monthly would probably have to be the goal. Weekly would be much too ambitious.

mr drinky
09-04-2012, 02:57 PM
I also think the PR comes mostly from location. Brooklyn is a budding foodie center and has all the requisite cogs of the food industry to 'plug into' and that provides a solid base of interest and buyers. There are top-notch butchers, restaurants, markets all nearby and food bloggers and food writers stroll past his slick storefront all the time. If Rader (or anyone here) wanted to pay to open a storefront in Brooklyn, I bet he would eventually be getting a fair amount of press. With that said, I think Joel's tells his story well and that also helps a lot. He doesn't get all knife geeky, he genuinely seems passionate about what he does, and that writer-turned-knifemaker is just too hard for the press to pass up ;)

k.

Mucho Bocho
09-04-2012, 03:02 PM
Or: DEVON THOMAS, Mike Davis, Hassinger, Fowler, B. Harner, B. Burke, and my all-time personal favorite Marko Tsourkan. Will Catcheside is beloved too but he's not American. that was the thought going through my head. I think Kaleb and Johnny make good points.

DitmasPork
09-04-2012, 03:18 PM
O1 is a fine tool steel. His knives are not bad. Lots of people dig the handles, I'd say it's probably worth $600, especially if you are into supporting the Handmade-in-Brooklyn thing.

But I mean, why has nobody interviewed Michael Rader(whose work impresses every single person I've ever shown it to) for the past 2 years while the same two guys get several magazines, countless blogs, web-video promos, a few tv shows, radio interviews, etc etc? KnowwhatImean? Is there some hidden force at work here?

I don't think anything negative about it, I just think it's odd how life works. Stuff just happens to people, seemingly at random. I would really like for the world to make sense, but the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked, as a wise man said.

Can’t say anything about the quality of Cut Brooklyn or Michael Rader knives, since I haven’t handled either—and I’m a bit of a knife newcomer, which is why I joined KKF. Regarding the quality of the knives, I’ll leave it to those of you with more knowledge and experience as pro-chefs and knife makers.

I do think that from a marketing standpoint, Cut Brooklyn stands a cut above some other makers.

Firstly, Cut Brooklyn’s website is smart and very nicely designed, the company is very keyed into using social media to create ‘buzz,’ over a thousand tweets since its inception. Websites, tweets, are often the first exposure to new products when looking to purchase a new knife.

‘Cut’ also does have an advantage, in that most of the media companies are located in NYC, his shop is in the up-and-coming Gowanus neighbourhood of Brooklyn, very hip. Producing a good product is only part of the challenge, the other is creating enough buzz to expand your audience. Most chefs here in NYC pay attention to publications like NY magazine, and NY Times, since that’s where restaurants are reviewed—so it makes sense that a high-end knife maker would court those [and similar] media outlets for exposure. Also, it's important to note the demographics of any publications/media when seeking press coverage, as these are not inexpensive knives.

And, yes, the word ‘Brooklyn’ is trendy, and gets traction, website hits, etc.

Larrin
09-04-2012, 03:58 PM
We're ignoring the fact that media outlets often get guests that have been used before in other places.

DitmasPork
09-04-2012, 04:47 PM
We're ignoring the fact that media outlets often get guests that have been used before in other places.

You’re certainly right about that.

Who gets coverage is often resulting from idea pitches between editors and writers based on their knowledge and suggestions by their contacts, balanced with what the publication feels will pull the most viewers/readers. If someone’s already been covered, they’ve already gained a certain amount of name recognition which is counts for something. Media likes ‘buzz,’ that can be in the form of ‘something new,’ ‘something that’s been around,’ or ‘something timely’—whatever the pitch is, it’s usually pitched as something people will want to read about.

I do think it’s good that media picks up on knives and their makers. Articles in food mags/media have definitely peaked my interest in quality knives. An article in Saveur years ago on Keijiro Doi in particular, rocked my boat [got me wanted to buy knives!]. I agree with you that it would be preferable if a wider range of makers got covered, but good to see it’s at least getting out there.

Apologies if I’m off topic!

Marko Tsourkan
09-04-2012, 04:54 PM
I have written this before. An article in New York Times can be arranged through an agent (first hand information) and I suppose, an agent can arrange an interview at WYNC or NPR. It is not free, and in case of NYT, it actually costs a lot of money.


There is also a shift toward organic foods, healthy eating,home cooking etc, so anything that falls under that umbrella (knives indirectly do), could be of interest to the media. There was a program on WNYC about spices a while back.

M

DitmasPork
09-04-2012, 05:53 PM
I have written this before. An article in New York Times can be arranged through an agent (first hand information) and I suppose, an agent can arrange an interview at WYNC or NPR. It is not free, and in case of NYT, it actually costs a lot of money.


There is also a shift toward organic foods, healthy eating,home cooking etc, so anything that falls under that umbrella (knives indirectly do), could be of interest to the media. There was a program on WNYC about spices a while back.

M

Marko,
Would like to read what you’ve written on NYT, is it on this site?

An agent promising a piece in NYT can fall into that problematic gray area of editorial ethics—they can pitch stories, they can't guarantee what ends up in print. I’m not implying that knife makers need or should get agents/publicists/social media consultants [a good way to waste money]—but I am saying that small businesses could be more savvy, if their intention is to expand their audience beyond the customers they already have. A good reputation, great product, word of mouth, is all important—good branding, an innovative look at business certainly can’t hurt.

Yes, there has been an editorial trend towards organic, craftsmen, things like basement charcuterie, etc. The whole localvore trend is everywhere, so if chefs want local ingredients wouldn’t they also respond to local knife makers in the same way? What's not to like from an editorial standpoint, knives are: cool, traditional, hand-made, distinctive, contemporary, utilitarian, art.

tgraypots
09-04-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm curious.....who has the Cut Brooklyn pass around now?

Marko Tsourkan
09-04-2012, 08:45 PM
There was one or two write ups in NYT about Cut Brooklyn.

Using an agent to pitch articles is nothing new, that is how agent and paper make money. I am surprised that this practice is relatively unknown.

Some of articles are pretty superficial and often shallow, indicating lack of knowledge or interest on behalf of people writing them. That is a good indicator about a pitched article.

What I actually mean, was that I have written about agent/paper connection before on the forum. I can find out exact numbers (dollars and cents) how much it costs to get an article published in a paper like NYT.

M

Namaxy
09-04-2012, 09:08 PM
An agent promising a piece in NYT can fall into that problematic gray area of editorial ethics—they can pitch stories, they can't guarantee what ends up in print.


This is simply not true in my experience. In a business completely unrelated to anything discussed here I wrote, word for word, an 'article' that was read on WBUR (Boston), and subsequently printed in a Boston newspaper. My only rite of passage was a publicist and $$.

Carl
09-04-2012, 09:21 PM
It could. Maybe only monthly or so, but it would work.

+1

Crothcipt
09-04-2012, 11:49 PM
There is a old saying about business. It takes 99% hard work and 1% luck.

The work is getting a invite on to the Ed Sullivan show. The luck is that you are not on after the Beatles.

I also think that location has some help with this too.

Salty dog
09-05-2012, 05:48 AM
Location has everything to do about it.

and he's probably a hipster.

shankster
09-05-2012, 06:05 AM
He's totally a hipster(not always a bad thing) and a Brooklynese hipster to boot,the proto hipster,everyone wants a piece of them.

Mitbud
09-05-2012, 06:58 AM
It seems as if there has been a strong effort on the revitalization of the Brooklyn scene. There has been a lot of money put into the area, especally the past two years. Anything Brooklyn is going to be getting lots of press just as a by product of the general hype especially had made local stuff. Like Eamon, nothing against his product, but he is certainly in the right place at the right time.

The fact that his locality is the center of the media universe makes it easier on the reporters.

Lefty
09-05-2012, 09:43 AM
I've been in contact with Joel once or thrice, and say what you will about him/his product, but he comes off as a passionate guy who really is into learning what makes a good knife a great knife. He's charismatic, well-spoken and I'm assuming makes a good product (I think I'm in on the passaround, so I'll find out soon enough).

Oh, and he's a hipster.

Mucho Bocho
09-05-2012, 10:13 AM
From everything I've read and observed I agree Lefty. One if his knives is currently being passed around. Hopefully he will take their feedback into consideration. I think he's creating the handles in a vacuum though. At the same time, I have not had one in my hand to say for sure.

What am i missing Hipster?

JMJones
09-05-2012, 10:40 AM
I think that him and Kramer do a fantastic job of marketing to the general foodie trend/ culture, not just to the knife knuts. It is an exponentially larger market and if you can get enough positive exposure there should be no shortage of sales.

Eamon Burke
09-05-2012, 10:57 AM
I've had to deal with the fact that, despite not trying or keeping up with any trends, my wife and I are probably hipsters. Not much can be done about it. All our lives we've loved old things, eclectic music, vintage clothes, food, small business, arts and crafts, passionate hobbyists, etc etc.

DitmasPork
09-05-2012, 11:11 AM
Geez, surprised at the negativity towards Brooklyn, hipsters, and Brooklyn Cut! Is it just thinly veiled professional jealously?

Along with Joel's skills as a craftsman, you're right about his location having it's advantages.

[Full disclosure: I live in Brooklyn, not a hipster, not a professional cook] It's true Brooklyn gets an adequate share of press, with much focus on small entrepreneurial artisans [romanticism perhaps]—"entrepreneurial" being a key word, due to the fact that it's not easy making a living here in NYC. Most professions deal with the simple principals of supply and demand, so I can see the advantages of Joel opening shop in Brooklyn from a business perspective—there was a niche in the market that needed to be filled.

In NY, you have major culinary schools [CIA, ICE, ICC, etc.], as well being the preferred destination for many chefs to cut-their-teeth, and a city filled with foodies—potential for a very stable customer base is there. It's a location where a large number of innovative chefs, food magazines, food bloggers, are just a few subway stops away. What knife maker wouldn't want instant access to top-notch chefs for feedback on his knives—building personal relationships with chefs using his knives. Obviously Brooklyn Cut has a business plan, and Joel is not just a hobbyist.

There are certainly a lot of great knife makers out there, so no disrespect to those who have been at their craft for decades creating stunning knives. I personally just like to throw my support behind artisans [knife makers] who have found a way to get some recognition for their hard work producing a fine product! To my mind, knife makers are a competitive breed, always trying to gain an upper-hand or innovating by using better steels, making better handles, better bevels and edge geometry, better heat treatments, etc. Striving for good marketing and a good press presence is not a bad thing. As Devin Thomas would probably not give away his steel process, Brooklyn Cut would probably not give away his exact process, press contacts, or customer list. From what I've seen, most hand crafted knives here in the states are created at a high level of quality, one can't say that the Brooklyn Cut knives are not good—there's much subjectivity that goes into a cook's knife preference. I can see how a NYC localvore chef who wants his produce coming from within a 20 mile radius, might fancy a handmade chefs knife from within the same zone.

As I first stated on this thread, "I haven't used any of the Brooklyn Cut knives," so can't say anything about how they feel. But would be the first to give kudos to an artisan making handmade knives, managing to create a bit of press buzz for his craft. In the end, I think it all helps to bring attention to the craft, and will create new enthusiasm and new customers wanting handmade knives to use and covet. And yes, the knives are "Made in Brooklyn," with Pennsylvanian steel, start to finish by his hands.

Looks like he also does a more traditional shaped handle [knife on left with green handle], and a French blade profile.
http://cutbrooklyn.com/artwork/1711581_Available.html

kalaeb
09-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Geez, surprised at the negativity towards Brooklyn, hipsters, and Brooklyn Cut! Is it just thinly veiled professional jealously?



Maybe its just me, but I did not read this thread as anything negative towards Brooklyn, Joel, or Cut Brooklyn, in fact I am reading it towards the positive.

chinacats
09-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Maybe its just me, but I did not read this thread as anything negative towards Brooklyn, Joel, or Cut Brooklyn, in fact I am reading it towards the positive.

+1

Exposure for the industry should be good for those involved. As people learn about knives through NPR and other media outlets, many who are interested will go out and find the 'good,' which should be of benefit to any of the craftsmen/vendors here who excel at what they do--namely all the craftsmen/vendors here. I think of this as being the best type of publicity imaginable--positive and free!

Crothcipt
09-05-2012, 01:13 PM
There has been a few attempts at contacting him for a knife, to do a pass a round. From what I understand if you don't have twitter to snatch up a blade when it posts you are sol. To a few people he has been rude.

I have not talked or met him. But from the feedback I have read here (just search brooklyn and you will see the threads) is what most are talking about. And I am sure you are getting from the postings.

Mucho Bocho
09-05-2012, 01:26 PM
Hipster

From Urban Dictionary

Hipsters are a subculture of men and women typically in their 20's and 30's that value independent thinking, counter-culture, progressive politics, an appreciation of art and indie-rock, creativity, intelligence, and witty banter. The greatest concentrations of hipsters can be found living in the Williamsburg, Wicker Park, and Mission District neighborhoods of major cosmopolitan centers such as New York, Chicago, and San Francisco respectively.

echerub
09-05-2012, 01:35 PM
That's a pretty positive definition there :)

Lefty
09-05-2012, 03:38 PM
Wicker Park is wicked.

shankster
09-05-2012, 05:20 PM
Sorry if I offended anyone by using the term "hipster".It was not meant in a negative connotation,like I said not all hipsters are annoying.
It's a word bandied about now a days to describe a certain sub culture of today's youth,some are true hipsters,some are wannabees.
Didn't mean anything negative about Joel or his company.

Cascadification
09-08-2012, 04:44 AM
When I saw this video (http://vimeo.com/31455885) back in December it completely sparked my interest in knifemaking. 9 months later I've made about 16 knives and I'm only getting better with each blade. I respect Joel because he works extremely hard and built his company up from nothing, I've never heard of him using O1 on any of his knives, it always appears to either be 1095, stainless, 52100, or CPM carpenter steel. I like that his blades are more of a french profile, I personally think a knife with a belly makes you work harder in the kitchen. The only thing I don't like is that he sends his knives away for heat treatment, but whoever does it must be precise, because his knives have nothing but positive reviews. The handles on the other hand I've always been confused about, some are listed as walnut, but clearly have some sort of black micarta or synthetic scale under what looks like wood, but I can never tell by the photo if it's real wood or synthetic. Also, I feel a knife you're going to drop more than $200 on should have a Bolster, but that's just like, my opinion man.

I use O1 exclusively on my knives, mainly because it's relatively easy to work with and tough as hell when properly heat treated. I'd love to get into using some varieties of stainless, but I would need a shop somewhere other than my garage where I'd be more comfortable doing cryogenic quenching.

Rader makes some amazing knives! Truly beautiful and artistic handmade damascus, the conclusion I've come up with about popularity is that he spends more time on his craft, which takes much more time and dedication forming your own damascus and blades with a hammer, heat treating, etc. etc. When you send away for heat treatment, or any other process in making your knife, you've got that much more time to dedicate to social media.

I'll be working on a dedicated facebook page for my knives this month, if I can get 1 customer as a result, I'll consider it a successful investment of time.

Cheers to those who inspire others to do great things with their free time!

-Matt.

Larrin
09-08-2012, 09:10 AM
What's wrong with sending out for heat treating?

mr drinky
09-08-2012, 09:18 AM
Hey Matt, I applaud your plunge into making knives.

k.

RRLOVER
09-08-2012, 09:34 AM
What's wrong with sending out for heat treating?

I too would like to know what's wrong with sending out for HT.

Eamon Burke
09-08-2012, 09:37 AM
Matt, I applaud your casual Dude quote. I think unless you are forging every blade from scratch, I see no reason why every handmade knife shouldn't be waterjet or laser cut and heat treated at a reputable place.

He says without saying it in the interview that Brad Stallsmith does his heat treating. Especially when it comes to Crucible steels, that is a major selling point in my book.

RRLOVER
09-08-2012, 09:46 AM
Geez, surprised at the negativity towards Brooklyn, hipsters, and Brooklyn Cut! Is it just thinly veiled professional jealously?l[/url]


I have read this whole thread and did not see any negativity towards Cut Brooklyn.As far as "hipsters" that's just laughable.I doubt there is professional jealousy.Knife makers are the nicest group of folks I have ever meet,willing to help each other out at a drop of a hat.

Marko Tsourkan
09-08-2012, 10:19 AM
Yes, I wonder too, what is up about CB? Every thread about him bring emotions. Let him be and make his knives (and market them) any way he likes it. And that he is not on the forums, so what? His customer base is outside of the forums.

He has done a great job promoting his business, almost Kramer-like, and from a business stand point, he should be applauded for. Does his work deserve all this attention? You have one of his knives passed around currently, so make up your mind by either partaking or following the feedback of others.

Yes, I agree that most emotions are driven by professional (or just plain) jealousy. Reminiscent of Kramer posts.

If many think that by bashing CB they stand up for a small-time-maker like guys here on the forum, well, they can stand up for themselves, by making knives and putting them against CB (or any maker for that matter) in sportsman-like competition and have the user decide. Competition is good, it makes you try harder and produces a better result ultimately. At least this is how it works in sports.

M

keithsaltydog
09-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Do you think Korin has done well because of location?I know Chiharu Sugai has had some media coverage.I think raising peoples awareness on knives is a good thing.

Cascadification
09-08-2012, 12:05 PM
I too would like to know what's wrong with sending out for HT.

I'm not going to state there's a direct problem with it, but another knifemaker said, "when you send your knives away to someone else to be heat treated, you immediately lose your control over the quality of your steel."

When I read that it kind of stuck in my head, I think i also have a bad perception of it because so many places around puget sound that do heat treatment do bulk steel and I doubt they've ever touched a knife blank. I had such a hard time finding high carbon precision ground flat stock in the Puget Sound area i nearly gave up on it. Online metals has it, but I don't like the quality of theirs for some reason. Bohler-Uddeholm has some fantastic stuff and data-sheets available right on their site.

As for joel, in his video I'm fond of, he states the heat treatment is the heart and soul of a knife, if you don't get it just right, it's crap. That's a lot of trust to put in someone else for a piece you'll spend 15-30 hours on depending on the details.

I have a bit of contempt for Seattle hipsters, I can't really speak for Brooklyn hipsters, one of my best friends growing up has moved to Brooklyn and is your typical, "roof-top dinner at sunset with the empire state building in the background photo-op" kind of hipster and He's a great guy, a good writer, witty, and smart. But the people I run into in Seattle who anyone would call a hipster seem to be more rude, ego-centric, and making Heroin the comeback drug. Seattle hipsters are the kind of people you expect to see walking down the street, stepping over someone dying in the gutter, while editing a playlist on their iphone. I think it's a neglect towards building community that really gets me riled up about their general attitude.

Anyway, I don't see Joel as a hipster, he is a craftsman, an artist, a businessman, and passionate about creating something handmade and exquisite. It's his attitude and passion that are selling his knives, I think he'd do well in any major city, but the fact that Knife shops in New York faded out with the industrial revolution, and he's opened a handmade shop in an urban foodie area make it prime for hipster logic, "It's independent and not well known, I must have it to exploit how trendy I am" The only problem with that is at some point hipsters won't want it anymore. But then the wealthy elitists will catch on to it and he'll be set for life. :razz:
I spotted one of his Journeymen 240's on a Guy Ferrarrrri(sp?) show drive-ins diners and dives. As soon as they said they were in Brooklyn and showed the chef working in the kitchen I was hunting to see one, and sure enough, there it was, with a light blue handle. Joel has a good network, a good product, and a sea of chef's who will purchase, show off, and treasure his work until they can pass it on to a family member 20 years from now.

I'd personally love to talk knives with the guy and thank him for inspiring me with a craft that is so fulfilling I will do it until I die.

Carl
09-08-2012, 01:26 PM
rant

I sent my smoker plans to the sheet metal provider, and for the tiniest of fees they are laser cutting and bending the sheets to my specs as per the AutoCad file, cheaper and more precise than I could ever do in my small shop. I will evaluate their quality when I receive it. The quality of my product hasn't gone down until I allow it to leave the shop with my name on it.

A chef, especially the larger ones, is not in their kitchen from open to close. They rely on competent others to perform as they were instructed by chef. If quality suffers the chef finds new others, or goes under. Having someone else do the work doesn't necessarily mean you have lost control of quality.

In my office job my boss probably did what I did for 20 years, 15 at least that I can count. He doesn't do it any more because he has me to do this so he can do other jobs. Did his quality go down? No, and he occasionally verifies the work that goes out with his name on it to ensure it lives up to it. He doesn't always check because I do my job very well, and have a documented procedure that I created and follow to ensure it is always done well. He only checks at all because he's a responsible boss and we are all human.

Taking it to the next step, if you define a ridgid procedure, and that procedure is ridgidly followed, then by verifying that procedure as producing high quality product you no longer need to review every single product for quality, only spot check to ensure the procedure is actually being rigidly followed, otherwise you could never do a thousand of something, or a million, cost effectively and consistently with high quality.

/rant

I see nothing wrong with sending out a knife or knives to be heat treated by someone you trust. You don't lose control of your quality unless you fail to ensure your quality standards are beign followed and allow the product to leave your shop as such.

Cascadification
09-08-2012, 03:29 PM
Good points,

But if Picasso and Monet sent their paintings away for someone to brush in the blues and Yellows, would that take the soul out of their work?

Carl
09-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Also a good point. The difference between an artist and an industrialst can be thin. Does the artist make his own brushes? His own paint? His own canvass? Some yes, some parts yes, some no. If you buy paint and brushes and canvass but the expression is your's, then it's your art. if I buy steel and have it processed the way I need (hardness, cut, whatever) but the choil and the spine and the tang and the belly and the tip and the thinness and the bevel/s are all mine, then it's my knife, regardless of where the steel came from.

Not everyone forges an axe blade from an old leaf spring, nor does everyone need to.

I think if the knife maker had someone grind the secondary bevel or the taper or the radius, then himself grinds, hones and polishes the edge, perhaps he is less of a knife maker than a knife sharpener, but then you have to ask where do you draw the line? Maybe someone else draws the line in a different place.

chinacats
09-08-2012, 04:29 PM
Taking it to the next step, if you define a ridgid procedure, and that procedure is ridgidly followed, then by verifying that procedure as producing high quality product you no longer need to review every single product for quality, only spot check to ensure the procedure is actually being rigidly followed, otherwise you could never do a thousand of something, or a million, cost effectively and consistently with high quality.


Carl,

I would agree with you for just about everything except the part I quoted above...I think that in the case of low level production such as knives that you do need to review every single piece to ensure your exacting standards are being met. That said, from reading some of the reviews about his knives I believe he knows how to maintain this control and put out quality pieces that do very well in his target market. You make very valid points in your rant:)

Cheers

Cascadification
09-08-2012, 04:36 PM
Well, I'm not looking to bicker, we could argue it all the way down to dead stars littering our solar system with elements, but that would take a while to get to. I guess my point being, heat treating is an art to me more than science. The science of it is simple, the art of it is complex. As a knife-maker, a young knife-maker, that bit of it is important to me and what I am creating.
Not to say I wouldn't be giddy as **** if Kramer wanted to heat treat one of my knives. There is value to his method and to his art. If a steel mill wants to heat treat my knives, I'd be flattered, but have to decline.

But again, that's just like, my opinion man. I'll respect yours if you can respect mine. There's something wonderful about doing it all yourself, whether it's fixing your car, making your own BBQ sauce from scratch, or brewing your own beer. But then again, there's also joy in lasers and machines, if there wasn't there'd be no joy in the Terminator Franchise.

DevinT
09-08-2012, 06:55 PM
Concerning heat treating............ There are pro's and con's for doing your own heat treating. I do think that the best HT can be done by the maker in his own shop. Any maker doing his own needs to become familiar with the steels and the recommended HT for those steels that they are using. There is a learning curve with HT, just like there's one for grinding, handles etc.

I have seen many new knife makers with inadequate HT equipment, making up wild HT procedures, and claiming unbelievable results. The truth is that they have an inferior knife/blade.

Those makers who send out there blades can be confident that they are getting professional results. It takes thousands of dollars to get set up to do your own HT, just ask Marko.

Hoss

labor of love
09-08-2012, 07:20 PM
What's wrong with sending out for heat treating?

+1

keithsaltydog
09-08-2012, 11:58 PM
I was thinking the same Devin all knifemakers are not equipped to do HT.Is it not like other forms of manufacture where one shop specializes in part of the production.I was surprized when I inquired about the HT on the Artiflex AEB-L Gyuto that even a Co. like Lamson & Goodlow send the blanks out to Peter's Heat Treatment.I don't care if they are Machine ground,you can always put on your own polished convex edge.But to me anyway the heat treatment is very important.