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Korin_Mari
10-09-2012, 05:23 PM
Hi everyone!
After a bunch of tips and pointers from all of you (thank you very much), I asked the managers for a knife passaround and they were fine with it. :D

For this knife:
http://korin.com/core/media/media.nl?id=32702&c=832324&h=b759ecdbe7f57c2364ea

Please PM me if you would like to try out the Togiharu G-1 210mm chef knife. I would like to have 10 users try out this knife and leave feedback and criticism. It would be nice to have some reviews written on the website (http://korin.com/Togiharu-G-1-Moly-Gyutou), if you don't mind going out of your way. :)

Both home and professionals are welcome, please indicate which you are.

Rules:
1. Only sharpen if you're confident in sharpening knives.
2. Please do not keep for more than a week, then ship to the next person.
3. Forum regulars only please.
4. If the knife gets damaged along the way, please let me know. I will have it fixed and send it to the next person.
5. All participants are responsible for the shipping and full insurance.
6. Please ship back to me to the Korin address when you're all done passing it around. :)

If there are many people interested, I will be happy to continue the passaround even after 10 people. But please ship it back to me anyways, so I have can it resharpened.

A few other things I'm thinking about passing around... Opinions?
1. Mizuyama sharpening stones (Which grit would be best? May be a double sided one?)
2. Cedar paper (I know its not the right season anymore)
3. Donabe pot (Since its getting cold.)

Zwiefel
10-09-2012, 05:52 PM
Would be interesting to compare to the Masamoto VG...I'm in!

SpikeC
10-09-2012, 05:56 PM
How about out one of those small grills? I suspect that there are several of us who would be interested in trying one out before buying.

Korin_Mari
10-09-2012, 05:59 PM
How about out one of those small grills? I suspect that there are several of us who would be interested in trying one out before buying.

Oh thats an awesome idea! I'll add pieces of binchotan (Japanese charcoal), so guys can try everything together. :D

heldentenor
10-09-2012, 07:30 PM
Mari,

Count me in for the Togiharu pass around!

Crothcipt
10-09-2012, 10:04 PM
I would like to give the Togiharu a shot. pm incoming.

EdipisReks
10-09-2012, 10:06 PM
How about out one of those small grills? I suspect that there are several of us who would be interested in trying one out before buying.

oh man, x2!

GlassEye
10-09-2012, 10:57 PM
oh man, x2!

x3, though I feel like shipping one of those around may be expensive.

EdipisReks
10-09-2012, 11:41 PM
x3, though I feel like shipping one of those around may be expensive.

as long as you could have the grill for a while, it would be worth it, i think!

Korin_Mari
10-10-2012, 02:17 PM
Are you guys talking about the small tabletop ones or the big tabletop ones?

SpikeC
10-10-2012, 03:58 PM
I was thinking of this one:
http://korin.com/Base-for-Small-BBQ-Konro?sc=28&category=281236

Korin_Mari
10-11-2012, 09:59 AM
I was thinking of this one:
http://korin.com/Base-for-Small-BBQ-Konro?sc=28&category=281236

Oohh. Yea that might cost quiet a bit in shipping. It's really heavy.

Korin_Mari
10-17-2012, 11:00 AM
1. Zwiefel
2. heldentenor
3. Crothcipt
4. tk59

Korin_Mari
10-17-2012, 11:01 AM
The current list for the Togiharu Passaround:
1. Zwiefel
2. heldentenor
3. Crothcipt
4. tk59

Zwiefel
10-20-2012, 03:59 PM
It arrived yesterday in perfect condition. I've inspected it--with my meager abilities--and made a quick meal. Will work with it for a couple days more then post a review and maybe photos.

Thanks Mari!

K-Fed
10-21-2012, 09:34 AM
I'd like to be added to the pass around if that's ok.

Korin_Mari
10-22-2012, 09:05 AM
I'd like to be added to the pass around if that's ok.

Awesome! :) May I ask you to PM me your address to pass to tk59?

Korin_Mari
10-22-2012, 09:06 AM
It arrived yesterday in perfect condition. I've inspected it--with my meager abilities--and made a quick meal. Will work with it for a couple days more then post a review and maybe photos.

Thanks Mari!

Great! Thanks for letting me know. Just so you know, the knife is in out of the box condition. :)

Salty dog
10-22-2012, 10:16 AM
I purchased a Mizuyama 6000 a couple years ago on Master Sugai's advice. I've been very pleased with it. That might be a suggestion?

Zwiefel
10-22-2012, 11:10 PM
Ive been pleased with both of my mizayuma...1k and 5k (maybe 6?)....not confident enough to sharpen this before send it to the next tester though. :(

Korin_Mari
10-23-2012, 01:25 PM
Ive been pleased with both of my mizayuma...1k and 5k (maybe 6?)....not confident enough to sharpen this before send it to the next tester though. :(

No worries. If you think it needs to be sharpened, please send it back to me. I'll take care of it, before shipping it off again. Thanks though! :)

Korin_Mari
10-23-2012, 01:26 PM
I purchased a Mizuyama 6000 a couple years ago on Master Sugai's advice. I've been very pleased with it. That might be a suggestion?

Oh yea! Thats a great idea. We have the double sided stones too, so people can test out two grits.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

Zwiefel
10-28-2012, 08:29 PM
I'll be getting this in the mail to heldentenor tomorrow.

I spent two days with it. Don't have a lot of comments. it's very similar to my masamoto VG gyuto. Very similar profile, grind, steel, handle, and performance. I'd have been just as happy with the togiharu as an introduction to jknives as the masamoto....and think it would make a great workhorse for either home or the line (not that I've ever worked one).

Could use a rounded spine though....just like the masamoto :)

heldentenor
10-31-2012, 10:50 PM
Knife arrived today safe-and-sound (thanks, Zwiefel!). Haven't cut anything with it, but the fit and finish is better than the other knives in its class that I've used (Kikuichi TKC and various strains of Fujiwara). It also feels heftier and more substantial--but by no means heavy. I'll give a more full report once I've cut some stuff with it, but my initial impressions are positive.

heldentenor
11-11-2012, 01:36 AM
Review of Togiharu G-1 210mm Gyuto

This knife is on its way to the West Coast, where tk59 can give it a much more thorough review that I could. I did put it through all of the tasks for which I usually use a gyuto, and compared it to a Hiromoto AS and a Marko Tsourkan 225mm suji. Where applicable, I'll also compare it to what I view as its close competitors, the Fujiwara and the Kikuichi/Ichimonji TKC. I've used both of these knives for substantial stretches, but do not own either at the moment, so I couldn't pit these head-to-head.

Out of the box: The Togiharu came with what appeared to be an 80/20 right handed edge. Fit and finish were solid (no gaps in the handle, nice satin finish on the blade) but not spectacular--the spine was not eased in the slightest and I could feel it putting pressure on my hand after a bit of cutting. The dimensions of this knife were also markedly different from its competitors, both of which I have used at 210mm. The edge itself was consistently ground, even, and very toothy--a better OOTB edge by a noticeable margin than either the TKC or Fujiwara (both of which I've used out of the box). While the Togiharu feels light and nicely balanced in the hand, it measured at 225 on the edge and had a much higher heel than either the TKC or the Fujiwara, both of which feel like small knives. Overall, this knife looked and felt well balanced and well designed.

In use: I used this knife to cut mirepoix, brunoise garlic, dice potatoes, and (just for fun) sliced some Roma tomatoes with it, trying to use as little pressure as possible. Alongside the Hiromoto, the Togiharu really shone on carrots and celery, where its thinner profile led to less wedging and more contolled, feedback-driven cutting. The extra height of the Togiharu--the Hiro is one of the shorter gyutos out there--makes a noticeable difference on longer push cuts and would help people who rock chop with the heel (I don't). In contrast, the Hiro releases food much better, and it outperformed the Togiharu in fine tip work (the garlic) and annihilated it in the potato cuts. The potatoes--and to a lesser extent the garlic--reveal that the Togiharu really struggles with food release, but I recall the same frustration about the Fujiwara and TKC. The Togiharu did surprisingly well in the tomato cuts, not quite passing the pierce test but cutting with no downward pressure and only the slightest of forward movement. I only used it for a week, but I did not notice appreciable edge diminution and did not touch it up--so tk59 is getting the factory edge, reduced by two users' worth of wear.

As a reference, the Tsourkan practice suji destroyed all of these tests. It does not stick or wedge at all, has excellent food release, and a great grind that makes it thin behind the edge and yet easy to maneuver with no stiction. Then again, a Tsourkan requires you to wait and pay more than twice as much--sometimes, you do get what you pay for.

Bottom line: I really liked this knife and would be curious to see how its lower priced Inox and Moly siblings performed. Since those are more directly competitive price-wise with a TKC, CarboNext, or Fujiwara, that comparison would tell us a lot about who is making the best entry level gyuto for people who want something better made than a Tojiro. The problem that the G-1 line faces is that it's competing directly in price with JKI's Gesshin Ginga (the Gesshins are a bit more expensive) and bluewayjapan's Sakai Yusuke lines--both of which come with higher hardness and with geometry that many users really love. That said, this is a well made knife, I enjoyed using it, and would certainly recommend it to people looking for a western handled starter gyuto or to people looking for a travel knife when they want to leave their customs/higher priced factory knives at home.

Thanks, Mari, for the chance to play with this for awhile!

Crothcipt
11-12-2012, 01:59 AM
The current list for the Togiharu Passaround:
1. Zwiefel
2. heldentenor
3. Crothcipt
4. tk59
I hope you didn't send it to tk. I just hate to be skipped over.:censored:

heldentenor
11-12-2012, 02:34 AM
No worries, Crothcipt--the knife hasn't gone out yet! PM sent.

tk59
11-12-2012, 01:17 PM
I hope you didn't send it to tk. I just hate to be skipped over.:censored:You don't think we'd make sure you got your turn? That hurts, dude. :sad0:

Korin_Mari
11-12-2012, 04:18 PM
I'll be getting this in the mail to heldentenor tomorrow.

I spent two days with it. Don't have a lot of comments. it's very similar to my masamoto VG gyuto. Very similar profile, grind, steel, handle, and performance. I'd have been just as happy with the togiharu as an introduction to jknives as the masamoto....and think it would make a great workhorse for either home or the line (not that I've ever worked one).

Could use a rounded spine though....just like the masamoto :)

Thanks for your review! :D
Yes, I tend to recommend the Togiharu G-1 to customers who like the feel of the Masamoto VG line. They are pretty similar, but according to Mr. Sugai the Togiharu line is made a little thinner. Both are great knives, but the Masamoto knives tend to be better for grunt work and volume. The Togiharu is slightly better for precision.

Korin_Mari
11-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Review of Togiharu G-1 210mm Gyuto

This knife is on its way to the West Coast, where tk59 can give it a much more thorough review that I could. I did put it through all of the tasks for which I usually use a gyuto, and compared it to a Hiromoto AS and a Marko Tsourkan 225mm suji. Where applicable, I'll also compare it to what I view as its close competitors, the Fujiwara and the Kikuichi/Ichimonji TKC. I've used both of these knives for substantial stretches, but do not own either at the moment, so I couldn't pit these head-to-head.

Out of the box: The Togiharu came with what appeared to be an 80/20 right handed edge. Fit and finish were solid (no gaps in the handle, nice satin finish on the blade) but not spectacular--the spine was not eased in the slightest and I could feel it putting pressure on my hand after a bit of cutting. The dimensions of this knife were also markedly different from its competitors, both of which I have used at 210mm. The edge itself was consistently ground, even, and very toothy--a better OOTB edge by a noticeable margin than either the TKC or Fujiwara (both of which I've used out of the box). While the Togiharu feels light and nicely balanced in the hand, it measured at 225 on the edge and had a much higher heel than either the TKC or the Fujiwara, both of which feel like small knives. Overall, this knife looked and felt well balanced and well designed.

In use: I used this knife to cut mirepoix, brunoise garlic, dice potatoes, and (just for fun) sliced some Roma tomatoes with it, trying to use as little pressure as possible. Alongside the Hiromoto, the Togiharu really shone on carrots and celery, where its thinner profile led to less wedging and more contolled, feedback-driven cutting. The extra height of the Togiharu--the Hiro is one of the shorter gyutos out there--makes a noticeable difference on longer push cuts and would help people who rock chop with the heel (I don't). In contrast, the Hiro releases food much better, and it outperformed the Togiharu in fine tip work (the garlic) and annihilated it in the potato cuts. The potatoes--and to a lesser extent the garlic--reveal that the Togiharu really struggles with food release, but I recall the same frustration about the Fujiwara and TKC. The Togiharu did surprisingly well in the tomato cuts, not quite passing the pierce test but cutting with no downward pressure and only the slightest of forward movement. I only used it for a week, but I did not notice appreciable edge diminution and did not touch it up--so tk59 is getting the factory edge, reduced by two users' worth of wear.

As a reference, the Tsourkan practice suji destroyed all of these tests. It does not stick or wedge at all, has excellent food release, and a great grind that makes it thin behind the edge and yet easy to maneuver with no stiction. Then again, a Tsourkan requires you to wait and pay more than twice as much--sometimes, you do get what you pay for.

Bottom line: I really liked this knife and would be curious to see how its lower priced Inox and Moly siblings performed. Since those are more directly competitive price-wise with a TKC, CarboNext, or Fujiwara, that comparison would tell us a lot about who is making the best entry level gyuto for people who want something better made than a Tojiro. The problem that the G-1 line faces is that it's competing directly in price with JKI's Gesshin Ginga (the Gesshins are a bit more expensive) and bluewayjapan's Sakai Yusuke lines--both of which come with higher hardness and with geometry that many users really love. That said, this is a well made knife, I enjoyed using it, and would certainly recommend it to people looking for a western handled starter gyuto or to people looking for a travel knife when they want to leave their customs/higher priced factory knives at home.

Thanks, Mari, for the chance to play with this for awhile!

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for your thoughtful review. It's fantastic. :D

May I ask what you mean by geometry though? Do you mean the shape and bevel?

You might actually be able to use the Inox and compare the two. I'm going to see if I can passaround a few more things, so I will keep you posted. Again, thank you so much for you review!

heldentenor
11-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Mari--

My pleasure! As I said, it was a nice knife to use.

Geometry usually means (at least as I understand it) the cross-section of the knife if you were holding it perpendicular to your body and looking down the handle to the tip (or from the tip to the handle). This usually encompasses the thickness of the knife, the height of the knife, and--maybe most importantly--the grind of the knife from the spine to the edge.

Best regards,
David

Crothcipt
11-15-2012, 03:19 AM
Received today, very beautiful knife. Can't wait to give it a go. I can't believe it has been sent around the country.

Crothcipt
11-15-2012, 03:25 AM
You don't think we'd make sure you got your turn? That hurts, dude. :sad0:

I knew I would get a turn, I just couldn't find a smiley I liked.

Korin_Mari
11-15-2012, 10:42 AM
:) Great! I'm glad it arrived safely.

tk59
11-26-2012, 06:22 PM
FYI, the knife arrived today.

Korin_Mari
11-26-2012, 06:28 PM
Great! Thanks for letting me know. :) Enjoy~

Crothcipt
11-26-2012, 07:25 PM
Togiharu

When I got this knife it looked like it hadn't been passed around yet, so new.
I went an looked at the steel which is a molly blend, which in my mind went to
Global knives. (sorry but that is my ah-ha knife) I was looking forward to using
this blade at work to see if it would hold up to a Global standard in my mind.

Fit and finish

You can get Globals for cheaper, but not in this length. Also the metal is about
all that Globals have in common with the Togiharu that I had. The scales were fit
very well except in one spot that I thought was due to lack of humidity. On one side of
choil there seemed to be a small burr that can rub a little wrong with some long
period use. But these are very slight, I don't think a casual user would have seen
the two things I saw.

The edge

I have never had a edge with a what I want to call a 80/20 bevel. I am in awe with
how well this looked and worked. I could see no steering at all when used. When I
first looked I didn't notice at all was just worried how sharp it was. Which wasn't
to bad at all. I just did a light strop on loaded cardboard on the back side and
it was arm hair shaving sharp. The edge held up all week on my poly boards at work.
There was no need for any kind of sharpening or maintenance at all.

Over all

I was very amazed at what I had received and very happy to have tried it out. It
went through tomatoes with out a problem, but sharpened to high to pierce the skin.
Potatoes had no wedging at all. Celery just cringed when I lined it up for splitting
and lobbing ends off. Onions when slicing were not a problem at all, dicing
was even easier to do. It wasn't quite falling through food but very little effort
was need for cutting. Out of a 10 scale I would give it a 8.5. But for the price
range I would give it a 9.5, just because I don't give 10's.

I would recommend Togiharu for a present to someone that is new to Kitchen cutlery,
or needing a upgrade from a softer blade.

Korin_Mari
11-27-2012, 10:00 AM
That you so much for such a wonderful review! It's written with so much detail and in depth comparison. It gives us in sight onto how we can improve the line too. :)
Yea, I'm sure the knife could have used a little sharpening by the time it got to you, but I'm glad it held up just fine.

To everyone: May I post your reviews to the Korin website?

heldentenor
11-27-2012, 11:21 AM
Sure, you can post mine!

Crothcipt
11-27-2012, 06:53 PM
I will post a review on your website that I think will serve it better. Mine is more for us knuts here.

tk59
11-28-2012, 02:59 AM
I just got around to taking a good look at this knife. I see some minor fit and finish issues that have been pointed out and there are some gaps where the scales don't quite mate with the tang perfectly. Aside from that, it seems well constructed. There is some minor corrosion/staining which I'm sure is from it's short stint in a pro kitchen. At 52.5 mm at the heel, it is on the tall side of the spectrum. The average for a gyuto being right around 50 mm. The blade remains on the tall side all the way through leading to the somewhat stubby tip. The tip profile reminds me of the Masamoto VG amonng others. The grind is thinner than average with a nicer distal taper than most. It is thinner near the edge and at the tip than any of the "lasers." I have no doubt it is a very nice cutter. The handle is like a somewhat nicer version of the Tojiro handle in terms of contour and size.

I know this isn't exactly the stock edge anymore but it is still interesting. There is some obvious refinement from a loaded strop on some parts of the edge. Most of the edge is finished on the equivalent of 300-ish grit waterstone. That would explain the awesome tomato-cutting performance. This edge is a saw by KKF standards. There is some microchipping along most of the edge and especially in the tip area. I'm gonna go sharpen now and I'll do some cutting tests tomorrow.

tk59
11-28-2012, 11:54 AM
Sharpening went very well. I rather quickly removed the chipping on a Gesshin 1k and then refined on a Gesshin 5k. There was very little residual burr to speak of but I gave it a couple of clean-up swipes with Dave's strop loaded with 1 micron diamond. At this point, it easily passed Salty's tomato test. The factory bevels were set at around 15-20 deg, clean and easy to follow. There was a small, insignificant overground section of the bevel at the heel which is common and expected at pretty much any price point. I'll make dinner with it tonight.

tk59
12-01-2012, 03:48 PM
Just a quick update: The corrosion came off with a little BKF. You can hardly tell it was there to begin with. On the performance side, I cut several pounds of onions, potatoes and various greens, butternut squash and some cooked meats side by side with a TKC. It performed very favorably for the most part although it feel a bit short on the harder stuff. I didn't think there'd be quite as much resistance as I experienced. I varied angles of approach and my technique but the result was consistent. I then examined the edge where I observed significant microchipping. I think I didn't raise enough of a burr when I sharpened it and left a fair amount of weakened metal. This knife is going back to Korin for resharpening on Monday, per Mari's request.

tk59
01-01-2013, 01:38 PM
Sharpening: I sharpened this knife twice. This steel is easy to abrade and the burr is easy to remove. The edge it takes isnít as nice as carbon steel but as far as inexpensive stainless knives go, itís on the nicer, keener side of the spectrum. Touch-ups on a ceramic rod, 5k stone or a loaded strop were very quick and effective.
Cutting: This knife has a fairly flat profile, tall, with a somewhat snub-nosed tip relative to most others. It is thin, in general with a dramatic taper and very thin behind the edge for a factory made knife. It cuts through objects with a small cross section (carrots, leafy greens, celery, bell peppers, etc.) very, very smoothly and easily. On larger objects I experienced more-than-typical ďsticktionĒ and drag on both sides of the blade making tip use a bit clumsy and causing food to jam against the hand while push-cutting in a pinch grip. In side by side comparisons, unmodified TKC and Gesshin Uraku/Yoshihiro gyutos far outperformed the Togiharu in this respect. I think this knife is an ideal starter knife for a pro. In my mind, the advantage to such a thin, tall blade is that it doesnít thicken up with sharpening as much as most other knives so it will remain useful after many, many sharpenings without the need for thinning. The sacrifice comes in the relative flatness of it that causes greater than typical amounts of drag and sticktion.
Edge retention: This knife is very average in this respect. I would probably not sharpening above 3-5k and plan for frequent touch-ups.
Fit and finish: This knife is fine in this respect. Spine and choil are sharp, typical for knives in this class. Small gap between scales and tang is also typical. It also has a typical, machine finish.
Aesthetics: This is a nice, clean-looking blade with a fairly even grind and consistent level of polish where scratches wonít scream at you but it still looks somewhat shiny. This knife is also not the most stain resistant knife around. After a week of use where I didnít particularly try to keep it clean I had a few gray-blue blotches here and there.
Korin Sharpening Service: I sent this knife back to Korin for a professional sharpening on Mariís request. As a sharpening knut, I was very curious about the quality of it. The turnaround was fast. The edge that was returned to me was clearly a coarse, machine-ground edge (wheel or belt). A fine stone (~5-6k) had been used to attempt to refine the edge by hand. However the angle used to refine the edge was not consistent with that of the bevel. Thus, the tip had a very refined microbevel, the middle was refined relatively well, and the last few inches leading to the heel had a polished shoulder, leaving the actual cutting edge rough with burr still intact. There was also a ďholeĒ in the edge just in front of the heel. I opted to fix the edge rather than use it.
Conclusions: Overall, I highly recommend the knife at this price point depending on the userís priorities/preferences. Based on the edge provided, I cannot in good conscience recommend Korinís sharpening service.