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Marko Tsourkan
10-20-2012, 09:20 AM
Going to do a run of prototypes for a yanagi, garasuki, honesuki and miroshi deba in 52100
Yanagi - 270mm
Miroshi - 240mm
Garasuki - 180mm
Honesuki - ??
Honesuki/petty hybrid - 135-150mm

Need advice on honesuki length and whether to make it with a hollow ground back. What do you guys say? 135mm or 150mm? Single or double-beveled?

M

Dusty
10-20-2012, 10:07 AM
Excited re: the petty hybrid! My yo-honesuki is my favourite knife profile ever. And a well ground double bevel would be awesome for petty use.

For buthery, I use my honesuki *alot* and i think that a concave back would serve very little purpose. Flat-back 99-1 edge is ideal for me. 150mm gives it enough versatility to do some bigger butchery as well as just birds in my experience.

Von blewitt
10-20-2012, 10:24 AM
I'd love to see your take on a miroshi deba!

Marko Tsourkan
10-20-2012, 10:29 AM
I made a 135mm petty/honesuki hybrid a long time ago. I shelved the project for a while, but now decided to revisit it, as my interest in single beveled knives has grown. The one I made was single-beveled and a hollow back.

The profile and geometry for traditional single-beveled knives like deba, garasuki, yanagi I will copy from my favorite makers. Basically, they should be very similar to Japanese-made, but in 52100 steel. I will harden them to 63-63.5RC.

@Dusty - flat back on honesuki sounds interesting. I think Shigefusa poultry knife is flat rather than hollow on the back.


M

Von blewitt
10-20-2012, 10:37 AM
I've never used a hollow back honesuki, what are the advantages of a hollow back? I understand with a yanagiba and deba when a large part of the blade is in contact during a slicing motion, but isn't the main action of a honesuki using the tip to separate through the joints? I don't see where there would be a problem with stiction. I may have missed the point though

Marko Tsourkan
10-20-2012, 10:47 AM
I am not entirely sure, as I haven't really started tackling problems associated with single beveled knives, but my guess is the hollow grind on the back partially offsets the stress in steel that is created by grinding a bevel on one side only. This is just a guess, and I need to test it, but I do know for fact, when steel is removed asymmetrically, internal stresses can make steel bend or warp.

In case of my knives this will be critical, as monosteel (basically oil quenched honyaki) cannot be straightened by hand after hardening same way as kasumi.

M

chinacats
10-20-2012, 11:40 AM
Nice Marko, would you also be considering a smaller (180-210) miroshi deba?

Marko Tsourkan
10-20-2012, 12:37 PM
Yes, but I probably would not go below 210mm.

M

heirkb
10-20-2012, 12:53 PM
150 for sure on honesuki. Not sure about the hollow, though.

GlassEye
10-20-2012, 01:45 PM
Must be true single bevel. I would rather sharpen a single bevel and I prefer them in use.

Marko Tsourkan
10-20-2012, 06:56 PM
I got a suggestion to do a flat profile and a single bevel/hollow back on honesuki/petty for ease of sharpening and use.

How critical is a curved profile for a honesuki/garasuki knives?

M

Chefdog
10-20-2012, 10:11 PM
I got a suggestion to do a flat profile and a single bevel/hollow back on honesuki/petty for ease of sharpening and use.

How critical is a curved profile for a honesuki/garasuki knives?

M
I've used honesuki for quite a while for lots of animals, birds of all sizes, smaller (1-3#) fish and meat ranging from cleaning lamb racks and legs to trimming silverskin from strip loins. IME, just the slightest curve is necessary, and actually I think too much would take away from the great utility of the shape. That wierd triangular shape just works for its intended purpose, and more.
As far as the grind is concerned, the ones I have and use are just flat on the back and not concave. It works for me, and I usually grind the smallest little bevel on the back, although for some reason I feel like the shape probably wouldn't benefit from being 50:50.

Hope this is worth something to you.

ecchef
10-20-2012, 10:49 PM
I've got my honesuke set up with flat back, wide convex face bevel, micro back bevel. Perfect for me.

heirkb
10-21-2012, 01:29 AM
Yea, I don't really see how a hollow ground back would be any easier to sharpen than the flat back. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it could be 165mm or so, but I wouldn't want it to be particularly long having used my 150mm.

KeiOkay
10-21-2012, 01:49 AM
Yea, I don't really see how a hollow ground back would be any easier to sharpen than the flat back. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it could be 165mm or so, but I wouldn't want it to be particularly long having used my 150mm.

It's easier because you're only wearing down the outside few mm of the back instead of the entire back surface area. This saves time and your stone. For a numeric comparison, lets say that we have a knife that's 6.5 in (165 mm) x 1 in (25.4 mm) = 6.5 sq inches for the entire back.

For uraoshi, lets assume that it leaves a 3 mm border around the whole of the back knife and I'm going to generously calculate the back side as if it were a square. So, if 3 mm = 0.118110236 inches then, the surface area for uraoshi sharpening is 6.5*2*0.118110236 + 1*0.118110236*2=1.77165354

So to do the flat back requires the removal of about 3.6 times the metal of a similar knife that is hollow ground.

ecchef
10-21-2012, 04:50 AM
It's easier because you're only wearing down the outside few mm of the back instead of the entire back surface area. This saves time and your stone. For a numeric comparison, lets say that we have a knife that's 6.5 in (165 mm) x 1 in (25.4 mm) = 6.5 sq inches for the entire back.

For uraoshi, lets assume that it leaves a 3 mm border around the whole of the back knife and I'm going to generously calculate the back side as if it were a square. So, if 3 mm = 0.118110236 inches then, the surface area for uraoshi sharpening is 6.5*2*0.118110236 + 1*0.118110236*2=1.77165354

So to do the flat back requires the removal of about 3.6 times the metal of a similar knife that is hollow ground.

Perhaps so, but in the real world nobody grinds away the entire backside.

Marko Tsourkan
10-21-2012, 06:57 AM
You guys gave me some good ideas, thank you.

I think I am going to hollow-grind the back on the first prototype, and do the flat on the second.

If you smell more pass-arounds in the air, you are probably correct.

M

Chefdog
10-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Perhaps so, but in the real world nobody grinds away the entire backside.

Agreed, I also just put a very slight micro bevel on the back of the blade. Mainly to assure removal of the burr and it only takes a minute.

KeiOkay
10-21-2012, 02:09 PM
Perhaps so, but in the real world nobody grinds away the entire backside.
Right, I shouldn't have implied that people are grinding away at it, but polishing to take off that burr to rezero their knife still seems easier to do on a concave back.

Marko Tsourkan
11-18-2012, 09:36 PM
So, I took all suggestions I received from folks in this thread and ground a 150mm honesuki. I have encountered some issues, as expected and was able to work them out, and I could say that the knife is a success. It is still a prototype and I will need to get some feedback as well as grind a couple more to nail down the process, but I got to tell you, I feel encouraged. Pics tomorrow.

My next project is 275mm yanagi.

M

Marko Tsourkan
11-19-2012, 11:17 AM
I flattened a typical honesuki profile, so it is easier to sharpen (bevel flat down on the stone), including the tip area. Back is hollow ground - I like it much better than a flat back.

I heat treated this blade the same way I do my other knives in 52100 to 62.5RC, but I might adjust hardness for later knives after I get a feedback on performance.

Knife will go out for testing for performance (geometry, edge toughness when cutting through bones, wear resistance, sharpness, etc). After I get some feedback, I will make another prototype.

My next single-beveled project - yanagi followed by mioroshi deba. All will be done in 52100 steel.

11575

11576

11574

pitonboy
11-19-2012, 11:35 AM
Love it love it love it

markenki
11-19-2012, 12:43 PM
Sweet. Looking forward to seeing the mioroshi deba as well.

Johnny.B.Good
11-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Beautiful blade, Marko.

chinacats
11-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Looks nice Marko!

gentlecook
11-24-2012, 05:15 AM
nice =)

its like 52100 honyaki ?

first single bevel knife ?
if no , please link with your another one.

what spine thickness at the heel ?

i use global_g7 for allpurpose line knife on sushibar, besides cutting rolls(yoshikane suji here, yanagis is too thick for more rolls).
http://www.coltelleriacollini.it/intershop/Large800/g7.jpg

now i think about some Honesuki, he can take a seat =) for allpurpose knife.

Marko Tsourkan
12-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Sorry, missed these questions.

Yes, you can say that 52100 is heat treated similarly to how Japanese heat treat oil-quenched monosteel blades - honyaki. It's different than mizu-honyaki (water-quenched). Also, 52100 is deeper hardening steel, so applying clay to the spine won't produce similar hamon figure as on white or blue steels.

Spine thickens at the handle will vary from 4.5 to 3mm, but over heel the spine thickness will be in the area of 3.25-3mm on all knives larger than 180mm. This is intentionally, as the knife gets a sturdy, solid feel.

Marko Tsourkan
12-19-2012, 11:40 AM
In the next couple of weeks I will finish a prototype drop point I started some months ago, as well as a neck knife I am going to gift to a friend. Still working on design and haven't selected the steel, but leaning AEB-L or 19C27, or 52100.

Resurecting a 3 year old project of a modified honesuki/petty knife. Probably 135mm. Traditional single bevel, hollow back, fairly thin, so could be used as a petty. Will have a prototype in a couple of weeks. If well received, will offer it in carbon, stailness and damascus san mai (monosteel core, damascus front, two layers)

Changing honesuki profile. Prototype in a couple of weeks, and this one will be passed around.

Western handled scimitar prototype (modified profile of a classic scimitar), as well as Western handle gyuto (also prototype) will come sometimes in February.

Yanagi prototype 2.0 will be done sometimes in February after I receive a feedback on verions 1.0. If well received, it will be offered in 52100, and 52100 damascus san mai (two layers, plain steel in the back, damascus in the front)

That's all.

eto
12-19-2012, 08:04 PM
Your a busy man. Great stuff Marko, very exciting!

Dream Burls
12-21-2012, 05:46 PM
Marko,

You are really blazing some new and exciting trails. The single bevel really looks great. I can tell you're going to have a very busy year coming up.

Marko Tsourkan
02-19-2013, 01:20 PM
320mm scimitar
300mm bread Knife
135mm honesuki/Petty & 150mm honesuki (both single-beveled)

13438

Eventually, I will offer both a scimitar and a bread knife in a smaller size as well.

brainsausage
02-19-2013, 01:53 PM
Very interested in the scimitar, and honesuki. Will there be prototype passarounds with these by chance?

Marko Tsourkan
02-19-2013, 02:12 PM
The profile in the picture is a hybrid between Dexter scimitar and another one (had no name, but definitely US made). I am going to do some research on the optimal thickness and grind, so I hope that the final product will live up to the expectations.

Scimitar a harder knife to make and I don't have time to make a passaround knife with all the work that I am already behind. In fact, I am not sure I will be doing passarounds past the 260mm gyuto.

M

Dream Burls
02-19-2013, 02:20 PM
Exciting stuff. Will the bread knife be serrated?

Marko Tsourkan
02-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Yes, there will be serrations on the bread knife. Serrations will be matched to a ceramic rod diameter, so the knife can be resharpened. The knife will be for either left or right handle use (side on which serrations are cut).

M

Marko Tsourkan
02-28-2013, 10:11 AM
I updated Stock Knife Survey Form to include new types of knives. If interested, please chime in. Thank you.

http://www.tsourkanknives.com/index.php/surveys

Jmadams13
02-28-2013, 11:39 PM
The bread knife sounds interesting. Can't wait to see the finished prototype. As a baker, have a soft spot for good working bread knives.

Joe

Marko Tsourkan
03-05-2013, 11:45 AM
Will work on the new profile honesukis in the next day or two. Still doing some research on a bread knife and need to put in time to practice shaping Western handles, but it's all in the pipeline.

M

Jmadams13
03-05-2013, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the update. If you need any input on the bread, let me know. Is also be happy to give it a test run when ready *wink wink* lol

Marko Tsourkan
03-05-2013, 01:19 PM
Bread and scimitar are harder to make, so I will have to price them differently and there is unlikely that I will pass-around them.

M

Marko Tsourkan
05-05-2013, 05:24 PM
Scimitar is already heat treated, will start working on it shortly.

Neck knives I am still tweaking design. What do you guys think of these? They will have 3" of the cutting edge (7-7.25" total lengh), will be made of carbon and stainless damascus (DT and JT), will have mokume bolsters (black area on templates) and probably ironwood scales with mokume bolts. They will be full tang knives and will come with kydex sheath. Will have work out details for sheaths as well, but probably you will see some color.

M15055

15054

15056

CanadianMan
05-05-2013, 05:37 PM
I really like the design of the slimmer handle, and by the sounds of the materials you are using, it is going to be one stunning neck knife. I will be getting one of these for sure! same with the scimitar I really like the profile

Marko Tsourkan
05-05-2013, 05:53 PM
I really like the design of the slimmer handle, and by the sounds of the materials you are using, it is going to be one stunning neck knife. I will be getting one of these for sure! same with the scimitar I really like the profile

The bottom neck knife (in the last picture) can have a slimmer handle but in this particular shape. It feels quite comfortable in the hand, as the handle on the other neck knife.

Blade profile is inspired by a drop point - my favorite of the hunting knife profiles.

M

markenki
05-05-2013, 06:04 PM
They look great. Drop point is also my favorite. I think I prefer the fatter handle.

xuz
05-05-2013, 06:09 PM
Neck knives look good.

http://i41.tinypic.com/xm8xi1.jpg
For me, I prefer the blade profile of the 1 (i.e. blade's heel/belly being parallel to the handle axis),
and handle shape of 2 (fuller grip at the center of the palm).


Index finger choil is something I've learned to like on a neck knife.
I've got a Carter, and I find that despite it's extreme ergonomics, it's a really terribly designed knife in practice.
1) Hollow grind. If you try to dig one through anything thick with resistance, it just gets stuck.
2) Hammered kurouchi finish. Compounding to the hollow grind, anything that might catch the material you are trying to cut will grind the blade to a screeching halt. You are constantly trying to free the blade from the material you are trying to cut. These two combined, makes it one of the worst designed knife I've personally owned and used.

I guess for me, a neck knife by design, should put pragmatism first and aesthetics second.
I think something like 3 inch blade, made with high Rockwell rating, and full flat or slightly convexed grind is required at the basics level. You can have other peripheral embellishments like opting for drop point or having false edge, but those, in my opinion make only minor differences. So far, your knives are looking good.

Marko Tsourkan
05-05-2013, 06:33 PM
Neck knives look good.

http://i41.tinypic.com/xm8xi1.jpg
For me, I prefer the blade profile of the 1 (i.e. blade's heel/belly being parallel to the handle axis),
and handle shape of 2 (fuller grip at the center of the palm).


Index finger choil is something I've learned to like on a neck knife.
I've got a Carter, and I find that despite it's extreme ergonomics, it's a really terribly designed knife in practice.
1) Hollow grind. If you try to dig one through anything thick with resistance, it just gets stuck.
2) Hammered kurouchi finish. Compounding to the hollow grind, anything that might catch the material you are trying to cut will grind the blade to a screeching halt. You are constantly trying to free the blade from the material you are trying to cut. These two combined, makes it one of the worst designed knife I've personally owned and used.

I guess for me, a neck knife by design, should put pragmatism first and aesthetics second.
I think something like 3 inch blade, made with high Rockwell rating, and full flat or slightly convexed grind is required at the basics level. You can have other peripheral embellishments like opting for drop point or having false edge, but those, in my opinion make only minor differences. So far, your knives are looking good.

Thanks for your feedback, please keep it coming.

The neck knives are going to be thin knives - 3-2.7mm over the heel. They will be thinly ground, and it's going to be a full grind (edge to spine), not partial, and basically I will grind them as I do my kitchen knives to about .005 on the edge.

Hardness is going to be 62-63RC, steels and heat treatment will be to maximize wear resistance.

These will be hand-finished and polished to 1000 grit.

The radius at the heel is for ease of sharpening.

Paradox
05-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Stealing the pic that xuz posted. ;) I agree with him on the grind. BUT my preference is backwards to his. I'd want handle shape 1 wih blade shape 2 but that is like splitting hairs as the blade shapes are quite similar. I'll be in for one for sure.

http://i41.tinypic.com/xm8xi1.jpg

xuz
05-05-2013, 07:03 PM
63rc would be simply amazing for any EDC.


A further note:
This is so minor as to not even warrant a change in current design,
but if you would make a different type of EDC knife in the future,
I would consider adding a finger guard.

Many guys that carry EDC knives sometimes use them to perform piercing/stabbing motions.
(For defensive purposes, or for stabbing into a perp's sofa to find hidden cocaine etc.)
There's alway the risk that, especially when hands get sweaty or slippery,
the hand could slip past the handle and run right over the blades.
These injuries are surprisingly common.
So some kind of safety feature involving guard/choil would be a nice addition that adds to the public appeal.

Pensacola Tiger
05-05-2013, 07:22 PM
63rc would be simply amazing for any EDC.


A further note:
This is so minor as to not even warrant a change in current design,
but if you would make a different type of EDC knife in the future,
I would consider adding a finger guard.

Many guys that carry EDC knives sometimes use them to perform piercing/stabbing motions.
(For defensive purposes, or for stabbing into a perp's sofa to find hidden cocaine etc.)
There's alway the risk that, especially when hands get sweaty or slippery,
the hand could slip past the handle and run right over the blades.
These injuries are surprisingly common.
So some kind of safety feature involving guard/choil would be a nice addition that adds to the public appeal.

The choil in these neck knives by Murray Carter and Rick Lowe serve that purpose, AFAIK.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Neck%20Knives/file_zps27c14e59.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Neck%20Knives/file_zps11dea589.jpg

Rick

Marko Tsourkan
05-05-2013, 07:25 PM
I am going to make another set of templates, incorporating feedback I received. Thank you and keep it coming.

I shelved a drop point hunter at the moment, but the guard can be carried over to a neck knife if necessary.

M

Marko Tsourkan
05-05-2013, 07:53 PM
I like this neck knife blade profile, but would do handle and would grind it differently.

15058

How much distal taper is there on a neck knife?

GlassEye
05-06-2013, 12:21 AM
It is awesome that another great maker will be doing a neck knife, I am awaiting my first neck knife but already looking for the next. I am interested in seeing what you come up with.

Lefty
05-06-2013, 12:44 PM
I don't carry a necker, but this one might be on my radar. I'd personally, go with "number one", but add a little bit more of a notch at the choil. They will be great, no doubt.

Marko Tsourkan
05-06-2013, 01:09 PM
I spoke to Hoss the Boss :) this morning, and he gave me some very good advice. I will use it in conjunction with other advice in this thread to make a prototype. It will without a bolster at first - I want to familiarize myself with the grind before I consider using premium materials (mokume, damascus, ironwood). It will probably be in AEB-L heat treated to 62-63RC and for most wear resistance. I also need to get materials and tools for making kydex sheath. So this is going to be a a long

Thanks to all who chimed in.

M

Justin0505
05-06-2013, 01:27 PM
IMO, that forward finger choil is a must-have for safety, functionality and comfort on a small knife that may be used hard in an emergency.
After owning a bob lum designed caly 3 and then my carter necker, I will never own an edc without one.


The choil in these neck knives by Murray Carter and Rick Lowe serve that purpose, AFAIK.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Neck%20Knives/file_zps27c14e59.jpg

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Neck%20Knives/file_zps11dea589.jpg

Rick

Marko Tsourkan
05-07-2013, 09:12 AM
IMO, that forward finger choil is a must-have for safety, functionality and comfort on a small knife that may be used hard in an emergency.
After owning a bob lum designed caly 3 and then my carter necker, I will never own an edc without one.

A few questions to folks who own Carter neck knives.

Is the diameter of the forward finger choil about the same as your index finger? Would it be better if the area was notched for a bitter friction, like you see sometimes spine on straight rasors?

Also, how do yo like the Carter in terms of design, ergonomics, etc? Would it be better if the scales on the handle on the Carter extended further forward, almost to the plunge line? What is the thickness of the handle (with scales)?

M

Pensacola Tiger
05-07-2013, 11:53 AM
A few questions to folks who own Carter neck knives.

Is the diameter of the forward finger choil about the same as your index finger? Slightly larger, but I have small fingers.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Carter%20neck%20knives/file_zpsa58b25f0.jpg


Would it be better if the area was notched for a bitter friction, like you see sometimes spine on straight rasors? Not in the choil area, but jimps on the spine where the thumb could get purchase would be welcome.


Also, how do yo like the Carter in terms of design, ergonomics, etc?

For a small knife, it is very comfortable in the hand. I think part of this is the handle shape, which narrows at the end and fins into my palm.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Carter%20neck%20knives/file_zps279244ae.jpg


Would it be better if the scales on the handle on the Carter extended further forward, almost to the plunge line?

I think it would interfere with pinching the blade for fine work.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Carter%20neck%20knives/file_zps4b229cec.jpg


What is the thickness of the handle (with scales)?

Mine measures 11.65 mm at the thickest point.

Rick

Don Nguyen
05-07-2013, 12:43 PM
Rick what's the thickness on that blade?

Pensacola Tiger
05-07-2013, 12:47 PM
Rick what's the thickness on that blade?

The spine measures 2.8 mm at the choil area, Don.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/Pensacola_Tiger/Carter%20neck%20knives/file_zps4289c07d.jpg

Marko Tsourkan
05-07-2013, 12:48 PM
Thanks, Rick -

xuz
05-18-2013, 07:01 AM
Here's a little blurb on YT about ergonomics in a folder.
Although it's about a particular Kershaw knife, I found his approach in analysis to be pertinent to most EDC type knives. It's a nice relaxing video to watch when you got some free time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4BMkX9EjJE

Dream Burls
05-18-2013, 09:12 AM
Here's a close-up on the choil of my Spyderco Chaperal. You can see how the handle and the blade combine to create the choil and that the choil has jimping (notches) which I like because it gives a better grip and feel to the hold. There's some jimping on the thumb hold too.

15348